HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Is there a financial bene...

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 01:57 PM

 

Is there a financial benefit to drafting Sam...

... To counter any potential losses?

46 replies, 3907 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 46 replies Author Time Post
Reply Is there a financial benefit to drafting Sam... (Original post)
Lost_Count Feb 2014 OP
madokie Feb 2014 #1
malthaussen Feb 2014 #2
clarice Feb 2014 #3
madokie Feb 2014 #4
malthaussen Feb 2014 #5
el_bryanto Feb 2014 #11
malthaussen Feb 2014 #13
el_bryanto Feb 2014 #14
malthaussen Feb 2014 #15
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2014 #38
yeoman6987 Feb 2014 #9
madokie Feb 2014 #10
yeoman6987 Feb 2014 #18
CreekDog Feb 2014 #6
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #8
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #23
CreekDog Feb 2014 #24
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #25
CreekDog Feb 2014 #32
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #34
CreekDog Feb 2014 #36
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #37
CreekDog Feb 2014 #40
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #41
CreekDog Feb 2014 #42
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #43
CreekDog Feb 2014 #44
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #46
CreekDog Feb 2014 #7
Pretzel_Warrior Feb 2014 #12
CreekDog Feb 2014 #16
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #20
Chan790 Feb 2014 #17
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #19
CreekDog Feb 2014 #22
Motown_Johnny Feb 2014 #45
karadax Feb 2014 #21
Smarmie Doofus Feb 2014 #28
Ruby the Liberal Feb 2014 #26
justiceischeap Feb 2014 #27
Ruby the Liberal Feb 2014 #29
justiceischeap Feb 2014 #31
Lost_Count Feb 2014 #30
libdem4life Feb 2014 #39
dilby Feb 2014 #33
Maedhros Feb 2014 #35

Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:03 PM

1. I'd say that since he's confident enough in himself to the point he feels he can come out

would make him a damn good financial risk. Just say'n

There's a lot more of us who understand the mechanisms of sexuality that we can more than carry the load

I'll be paying attention to see what team picks him up and add them to my must watch list

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madokie (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:09 PM

2. It will be interesting to see what this does to his draft standing.

My instinct is that the teams are going to avoid him like the plague.

-- Mal

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to malthaussen (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:11 PM

3. I agree...

 

look what happened to that player who said he was getting bullied.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to malthaussen (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:20 PM

4. I guess we'll see won't we

I would think this speaks volumes to his self worth to the point that his stock will go up. After all it is money we're talking about and winning games is money

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madokie (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:29 PM

5. But his self-worth is irrelevant to how others might see his worth...

... as you say, we'll see. While sports ownership is largely about money, it is also about subordination and image. (which can also be about money, far be it from me to downplay the importance of the dollar)

-- Mal

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to malthaussen (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 04:16 PM

11. You can make an argument though that a confident player is more likely to be a winning player

To borrow a phrase i heard a lot growing up, whether you think you can or you can't you're right.

That might not be quantifiable, but it might still be seen as a benefit.

Bryant

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to el_bryanto (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 04:18 PM

13. Sure, you can make that argument.

But I think that the owners are more likely to believe that of someone they are comfortable with.

-- Mal

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to malthaussen (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 04:23 PM

14. Did you see Moneyball? or read it? Interesting book

As it applies here - I'm guessing that Michael Sam's sexuality has no real impact on his ability to play the game, which he apparently does at a very high level (not a football fan I'm afraid). So all it takes is two owners to say "Yeah - screw that, I'm hiring that Sam kid because he's good." And he'll go up in the draft.

He will have to keep playing at a high level because a number of conservative sports fans are going to be going for him.

Bryant

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to el_bryanto (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 04:34 PM

15. Been on my list awhile, but haven't gotten to it.

Know it from reviews, word-of-mouth, etc.

You optimists may be right. But I am a cynical bugger. In every walk of life, there are far more talented and able people for a position than there are positions. Some of the best musicians I know, e.g., never got a recording gig. And sports are no exception, although there are those who will tell you that owners/managers whatever are only interested in winning at all costs.

Take Branch Rickey, for example, and an apposite one in this case. He was a heavy-duty Christian and teetotaler. There is an anecdote about him and Durocher that Bill James related in one of his books. Durocher found that giving a certain pitcher a belt of whisky before the game improved the guy's performance greatly. But when Rickey found out about it, he told Leo that the guy "would never play for Brooklyn again." Yet at the same time, as we know, it was Rickey who opened up the floodgates for black talent to play ball.

Owners can be weird, and they have the money to indulge that wierdety as they will.

-- Mal

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to malthaussen (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 08:22 PM

38. There will be the mother of all media storms if this kid doesn't get drafted.

I have seen Mel Kiper, Bill Polian, and Chris Mortensen all say this kid is a legit NFL player. If he isn't drafted there will be the mother of all media storms.

Roger Goodell is no idiot. He's going to let it be known, most likely informally, that the NFL will do everything within its power to support the franchise that drafts him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madokie (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 03:02 PM

9. How he plays

 

The only thing that should be used is his ability to play the game. If he is good then he should be hired and perhaps become one of the best. If he turns out like Tebow an average player then he will be gone in a few years. His homosexuality shold not have any Bearing whatsoever. I am gay and hope my boss evaluates me on results and that is it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 04:11 PM

10. With his confidence in himself

and I think his conviction to the game he will be just fine
It takes a lot to do what he had done so that tells me he is up to the task of proving himself on the field.

We can hope

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madokie (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 06:19 PM

18. Such Wisdom you have

 

I agree with you 100 percent!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:37 PM

6. we know how you feel about gays

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CreekDog (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:47 PM

8. It would really tickle me...

 

... To hear what you think you "know."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CreekDog (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 02:09 PM

23. Well, I guess you dont know as much as you thought...

 

Shock...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 05:41 PM

24. I know you posted a thread saying there are negatives associated with signing a gay player who's out

and it's more than implied that the negatives you're talking about are solely related to him being gay.

i owe you no explanation if that's how you're going to post, and if you're going to say things like you hoped the death penalty hurt (when the drugs didn't work correctly)...

do you deal with people while having thoughts like you hope the death penalty hurts and nobody should feel sorry if a drug user died of an overdose?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CreekDog (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:19 PM

25. There are multiple potential negatives associated with it...

 

... that's why it's a story.

They could be financial, team internal or affect society at large.

1) Financial - The team that picks him could lose a X% of their supporters. You might not care but the team owners do and it will affect their decision.

2) Team internal - It could split a team along their beliefs and affect their ability to perform. See #1 why this is important.

3) Sam could fail - either at the draft or he gets picked up and washes out of the NFL. Maybe he gets bullied out. His lack of success keeps others from speaking out because they don't want to end up like him and we go back to square one.

The first two affect the team and the NFL as a whole and will influence his ability to join. The third has even larger ramifications.

If it was all sunshine and rainbows, I don't think everyone would be talking about it non-stop. Do you? Maybe you do... Somehow I wouldn't be surprised.

Also, I'll try to get by with your stern looks of disapproval as I continue not to agonize over convicted murderers and people who choose heroin over their kids. I'll just take it day by day...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:56 PM

32. but all those things you mention could apply to a straight player

so what's your point?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CreekDog (Reply #32)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 07:30 PM

34. Wow... You really do think that...

 

I'm actually impressed.

The rest of the adults will be having an actual conversation when you are ready.

Hint : if it was all the same for a straight player this wouldn't be a story.

Second Hint: If Johnny Manziel shits the bed he won't set the process of open gay integration in the NFL back by a few years so it really doesn't all apply.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 07:47 PM

36. some people don't like to be around Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, or Baptists, or atheists

why haven't you posted that the presence of player of those or other background has negatives?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CreekDog (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 08:16 PM

37. Remember what I said about the big boy table...

 

It's there when you are ready.

I know that the subject makes you uncomfortable but if you insist on being deliberately obtuse then why are you even here? Literally everyone else is talking about why it is different and a first. That's the story...

Claiming that this is business as usual is asinine at best and ignorant at worst.

You can even talk about how and why he should be treated equally by everyone else but the story is that he isn't and he won't.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 09:59 PM

40. It sounds like the subject makes you uncomfortable

as if not liking someone because they are gay is any more tolerable than not liking them for some other reason.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CreekDog (Reply #40)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 10:11 PM

41. 1) You're stealing my lines...

 

2) Are you changing direction away from the first openly gay NFL player being the same as a Mormon?

Good for you...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Reply #41)

Wed Feb 12, 2014, 12:56 AM

42. so it sounds like you would have been against black players entering professional sports

because it would offend some people (because bigots...) and you're not sure if you can make up the money you'd lose from the bigots.

and as for comparing a Mormon player, among many evangelical Christians (which the NFL has many) who don't approve of Mormonism (polytheistic, etc.) to a gay player similarly outnumbered --I think once he's on a team, it will be as big of a deal as having Mormons there.

not a big deal at all.

it isn't a big deal at his college, it won't ultimately be a big deal in the NFL.

even in the military, not a big deal.

you need to stop worrying about the economics of doing the right thing. it looks like concern trolling the choosing of a gay player.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CreekDog (Reply #42)

Wed Feb 12, 2014, 10:13 AM

43. I know .. I know...

 

You think the NFL and team owners "should" take on Sam even if it were to cost them financially. The reality is that they will look to their wallets first and will take him if, and only if, they see a potential to earn more money than if they had not taken him.

The adults in the room are talking about the likelihood that will occur and how it will happen. Having a pout fest with vague and unprovable insinuations of racism and bigotry just shows that you still lack a point.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Reply #43)

Wed Feb 12, 2014, 10:41 AM

44. i'm surprised you haven't talked about the "shower" issue

yet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CreekDog (Reply #44)

Wed Feb 12, 2014, 10:51 AM

46. Why dont you enlighten the rest of the room...

 

Since you don't seem to have a point beyond trying to hint at things you can't prove.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:41 PM

7. in your line of work, do you see gays as a negative?

worthy of different standards of treatment and so forth?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 04:16 PM

12. you mean like if he's good enough to help them win the Super Bowl? uh yeah.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 05:07 PM

16. gays coming out in the military didn't harm the military

why on earth would there be any negative issues with the NFL?

and what would they be anyway?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CreekDog (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 06:48 PM

20. Still waiting...

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 05:23 PM

17. Yes, absolutely...but...

 

there is more benefit in drafting him only slightly higher than the next person who might draft him.

It's unfortunate but this will hurt his draft position and thus his earnings. It probably makes him undraftable for about half the teams in the league (The NFL has a serious institutionalized homophobia problem from fans to locker rooms to front offices. There are only a handful of teams where there would be no issue IMO.)...which means for the teams that would take him, he would be available later than he would be if he was straight.

My estimation--the Pats grab him in the 4th round because they think someone else would grab him before they had a chance in the 5th round. New England is a perfectly liberal place where nobody is going to give a shit if he's gay; all anybody in Foxboro cares about is if he wins football games for them.

Before this, he was projecting to a late 2nd to high 3rd. Right there, homophobia probably just cost him 1M in signing bonuses. I've seen the kid play...someone is getting a steal. He'll be an above-average pass-rusher at the NFL level as either a DE or weakside up OLB.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 06:47 PM

19. Good breakdown...

 

I'm a casual fan of the NFL and am only vaguely aware of college ball.

It will be a balance between talent vs the added pressure that having him on the team will bring. I don't have a good feel for his level of skill and wondered if teams can get something comparable without the extra.

Thanks..

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 07:17 PM

22. if his draft position drops as a result of him coming out, the NFL should fix that

they've figured out ways before to deal with prejudice and integration, they can do it in this case.

and if they don't, the anti trust exemption should be taken from them.

in other words, if it costs HIM, it should cost THEM.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chan790 (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 12, 2014, 10:50 AM

45. Unless we assume some front office personnel are also Gay.

 


Which I think is a pretty safe assumption.



It s entirely possible that some people who make the decisions upon who to draft will want the first player who is out on their team.


I can't begin to speculate upon which team will draft him, but I think there is more in play here than what the haters in the locker room might think.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Mon Feb 10, 2014, 07:01 PM

21. 49ers have 11 picks in the draft.

San Francisco would be a great fit. It could go a long way to repair the locker room image after that Culliver gay tweet prior to the Super Bowl they were in.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to karadax (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:40 PM

28. Meh. I don't like the symbolism. Gay people are everywhere; not just in SF.

 

OTOH...NYC or LA might be good for media exposure.

ETA: just realized: there IS no LA anymore.... is there?

So I guess it'll have to be Jets or Giants.

Gov. Crispie will be proud.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:38 PM

26. If (and only if) he plays well, hells yeah.

He is too small for the defensive line, but there are alternate positions they could put him in.

If he plays well, there will be an ocean of endorsements headed his way. Thinking companies like Apple, Chevrolet - not to mention clothing lines - that would all jump at the chance of being 'first' to feature the gay athlete with their logos. The owner who agrees to pick him will be able to cash in huge on that.

That said - he has to be really really good, or it could be a bad bet in a lot of areas of this country.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:40 PM

27. If he's picked and he's not really, really good

then it'll be blamed on his being gay, you can count on it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to justiceischeap (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:44 PM

29. Only by those ignorant

of the game. Not all college superstars can make it in the NFL. Kid is really really good, but he's about 255 and most defensive linemen are 300+. He's too small to continue in the position, so will have to see how well he picks up something different. People already know he is a great player, its not like he is an unknown.

Good to 'see' you!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #29)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:47 PM

31. It's the ignorant people that concern me and seem to have the biggest mouthpiece

that said, I wonder what his running back skills are like.

Good to 'see' you too!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:45 PM

30. I think that's a good explanation...

 

... but if he doesn't perform there is nowhere in this country that he will get hired on at.

Side question: How much of Kaepernick's (for example) endorsement money does a team or the league get?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 08:32 PM

39. I like the endorsements side of it. He's charming, good looking and comes across well to cameras.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 07:03 PM

33. The benefits will be based on his game play.

The only financial benefits or negatives will be solely based on his game play. People will cheer for someone who wins football games, they don't care what his sexual preference is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lost_Count (Original post)

Tue Feb 11, 2014, 07:33 PM

35. Assuming that his game translates well to the NFL,

 

and if his draft stock does indeed drop and he is drafted later than projected, the financial benefit will be to the team that picks him up. They will be getting 2nd/3rd round talent while only paying 4th-7th round salary. Manti Teo is a reasonable analog.

There is no real benefit to Sam, though, and that fact makes him even more brave and principled in my book. Were he to have kept silent, he would have stood to have made a significant amount of extra money.

However, I'm of the opinion that any NFL GM worth his salt will look solely at Sam's ability to help the team on the field when deciding whether to draft him or not. He may fall on media-hype-driven draft boards, but that bigotry may not extend to the actual decision makers on draft day.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread