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Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:38 PM

 

Fuck.

Last edited Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:17 PM - Edit history (2)

He stood that soldier up at the end, the man with the blasted head and the scarred life, with the visible dent in his skull, who will never ever be even remotely close to the same again because of the ten deployments we sent him off to so someone he'll never meet can make a lot of money, and gave that man his reward: a standing ovation from the worst roomful of people on the skin of the Earth...

...followed by this burbled bit of spitup pabulum: "Sometimes we make mistakes."

WOW DUDE. DEEP.

Yeah. That happened. On national television.

That guy deserves better than a star turn in the parliament of whores, he deserves better than "Oops" from his Commander in Chief, and speaking of the boss, that guy deserves better than to be a prop in a passion play about how everything is awesome, and the last 13 years never happened.

I am sure the to-the-knife Obama defenders out there will seethe and howl upon reading this. Whatever, man. That was one of the more despicable displays I have ever had the misfortune to witness. He had the opportunity to do more than use a blasted, shattered soldier as a prop in a ZOMG HOW AWESOME IS AMERICA I MEAN TOTALLY montage, to maybe bring home some truths about actions and consequences...and he went for the easy applause line and the "Awwwww" moment.

You say "Awwwww" at puppies and babies. You don't say "Awwww" at soldiers victimized by ruined policy deployed by a ruined country...and if you have half a conscience, you make note of that on the largest stage with the biggest microphone in the world.

Another missed opportunity in what has become a truly impressive string of missed opportunities. Yeah, the SOTU is a show. That does not mean it has to be utterly meaningless, and it certainly does not mean that it has to be grossly exploitative.

Maybe I'll feel different tomorrow upon review. I doubt it. I am sick to my stomach.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:40 PM

1. Wow, one of the most irrational take aways from any speech ever.

 

I don't even know where to begin with how absolutely wrong you are on this.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:41 PM

4. You could begin by addressing why we should be proud that there exists the

 

possibility that anyone could be sent to unnecessary wars for 10 deployments.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:43 PM

6. Oh I think thats absolutely insane. But the OP missed the point. Chris Hayes got it right though.

 

There was a connection between declaring that America has to remove itself from permanent war footing and then shortly after introducing the consequences of said permanent war footing.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:47 PM

9. All by the Commander in Chief perpetrating said permanent war footing.

 

It was disingenuous, at best. But offensive to anyone who has paid attention to the permanent wars. Which, if you listened, they certainly aren't ended anytime soon. Explicitly forces will remain in Afghanistan for the foreseeable future and there are now four countries on the war on terror list (even though Obama has enough sense to not use the term axis).

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Response to morningfog (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:17 AM

40. .

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Response to morningfog (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:53 AM

210. THANK YOU

so many DUers act like he is an innocent bystander

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Response to morningfog (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:07 PM

395. No. Korea was part of the axis..

Iran, Iraq and No. Korea. Iraq has it's own trouble and is not part of any axis now. Iran remains to be seen, but Doves all over the planet are working on it.

No. Korea just sent a letter to So. Korea requesting a decline in hostilities.

I have hopes for No. Korea and Dennis Rodman because Jung Un has asked several times for a phone call from us.

Dennis Rodman is seeking help for his drinking problem, I heard somewhere.

We don't know why the uncle was executed. He comes as the part of the group of hardliners who had such atrocious policies dealing with their people and perhaps wanted to rid himself of the US flirtation by Jung Un who caught on and got rid of him instead.

Nothing is what it seems.

I think we have more than an axis of economic enemies until we put trade on an even playing field (I hate these trite expressions, but sometimes they fit.)

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Response to fadedrose (Reply #395)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:04 PM

415. Do you know that Kim killed all of his uncles relatives too?

 

Men, women, children, babies. His entire extended family, parents, wife, children, childrens children...

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Response to AAO (Reply #415)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:32 PM

437. Somebody make him read a biography of Alexander the Great?

Very old style.

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Response to aquart (Reply #437)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:11 PM

469. To be fair, all the old style was not just killing family

Many married their grandmothers or sisters to retain a royal bloodline, some of whom are still alive....

Ann bolyn didn't make the cut....or rather, she did...sorry.

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Response to AAO (Reply #415)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:54 PM

601. Our government doesn't give half a shit what other governments do to their own people

The two things that matter:

1. Does that country have something that rich people here want?

2. Is the leader of that country doing business on terms that our rich people dictate?

Since North Korea doesn't even have the first, including it in the "Axis of Evil" was little more than a rhetorical flourish.

If a country does both, they don't have to be democratic, they can deny women's rights of all kinds, imprison political opponents, hell the president of Uzbekistan even boiled a guy ALIVE.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:49 PM

11. Tweety just gushed over that "remove us from permanent war footing" line

he even gushed about how Obama said it in 2008 and now he's saying it again. Really? Because 2008 was 6 years ago and he's had 5 years as President to do something about it and we haven't seen much movement in that direction - instead they make noise about needing to leave troops in Afghanistan longer.

It's a line that plays well but I though using that poor soldier was a real Bush league move.

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Response to dflprincess (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:40 AM

195. "we haven't seen much movement in that direction" = total bullshit

 

I don't even have to recount all the differences that have been made in regard to how many troops were deployed in 2009 vs today. Its a whole lot less. We are winding down one war, not proactively fighting any at all really. Its more of an attempt to make a graceful exit than it is anything else.

Leaving a small amount of troops deployed somewhere, though I am against it, is not "permanent war footing". There is a difference between an occupation vs a small presence and its a huge difference.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #195)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:14 AM

357. But, I don't disagree with you at all.

But, honestly, why do we need 'troops' all over the world in the first place?

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #195)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:56 PM

452. No, because now we have drones!

More efficient at killing and perpetuating war while absolving one's self of any guilt.

It's like Palm Olive. It softens hands while doing dishes.

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Response to dflprincess (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:38 AM

367. Forgot about the obstructionist congress have you?

They have made it very difficult for Obama to do anything.

And he used the soldier as an example for just why we have to get out of the ME.

I think it was a very well made point.

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Response to dflprincess (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:15 PM

398. The President avoided war in Eygpt, Libya and Syria

yet you talk about this administration not doing anything to get us off a permanent war footing.

I must say memories are short around here but you just have to remember all the repugs clamoring for troops to be sent to Eygpt, Libya and Syria yet Obama resisted? And just tonight this president threatened to veto any bill for sanctions against the Iran negotiations so that we can give diplomacy a chance to again, AVOID WAR?

No?

C'mon, it wasn't that long ago. And you know Bush/Cheney would have been right on it with plenty of boots on the ground but you give this president no credit for getting Mubarak and Kaddaffi out and Assad to cough up the chem weapons WITHOUT SENDING ANY TROOPS.

What a tough crowd.

And even though he's had to clean up after Bush's two wars, HE HASN'T STARTED ONE OF HIS OWN (see Eygpt, Libya and Syria), practically a rite of passage to manhood for repug president's.

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Response to dflprincess (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:00 PM

466. It was.

 

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:28 AM

59. I read recently that 18 veterans of these horrendous, WRONG, wars commit suicide in this country

every day, unable to live with what they were sent to see and do. More dying now of suicide than on, what they laughingly call 'the battlefield'.

One of them sent a letter to this president before he died. A thoughtful, intelligent letter that gave more wise advice to him than all his generals put together.

Then I read that the troops on the 'battlefield' when they went to have breakfast last week, saw a sing telling them there would be no breakfast from now on because of 'cut backs'. I bet the Private Contractors are eating breakfast.

Support the Troops! Yay!

So disgusting, so tragic, all of it. They should ALL stop using these troops period, for wars, for political props and just bring them all home and THEN TAKE CARE OF THEM.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #59)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:51 AM

90. sabrina 1...

can you source this info for me, please?

Then I read that the troops on the 'battlefield' when they went to have breakfast last week, saw a sing telling them there would be no breakfast from now on because of 'cut backs'.


Thanks in advance!

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Response to DonViejo (Reply #90)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:21 AM

254. Odd, that makes two people less interested in the suicide rate among veterans

than in the rumor about breakfast. You didn't ask, but here is some information on the tragic suicides of veterans. You need read the article for a breakdown of who they are. If you're interested of course.

Many are older, and then there those who commit suicide while on active duty. One a day according to this report.

Suicide Rate Among Vets and Active Duty Military Jumps - Now 22 A Day

Almost once an hour – every 65 minutes to be precise – a military veteran commits suicide, says a new investigation by the Department of Veterans Affairs. By far the most extensive study of veteran suicides ever conducted, the report, issued Friday, examined suicide data from 1999 to 2010.

The data was then compared with a previous investigation – primarily an estimation – that had been conducted over the same time period, and had found a suicide rate of 18 per day.


The good news, if you can find anything good about any of this, is that a crisis line was set up to try to deal with this tragic situation.

The Department of Veterans Affairs has a new crisis line and website with multiple avenues, including text and online chat, for those contemplating suicide to reach out. The site also offers extensive information and resources for families and friends to help them spot the warning signs of depression and suicidal thinking and take action.

ccording to this week’s press release, the crisis line has already resulted in saving 26,000 veterans from suicide. That’s wonderful news – except that the fact that 26,000 vets are actively suicidal is deeply disturbing.

President Obama signed an executive order on August 31st authorizing the VA to hire additional staff and double the capacity of the crisis line. Let’s hope that helps.


War is HELL. And no country should ever send its troops to war unless that country is under attack. We were lied to, as everyone knows, and thousands of men and women died, more are maimed for life, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of men, women and children who did nothing to us who are dead, their country destroyed.

Sorry not to play your gotcha game. I try to keep the focus on important things, like the lives of human beings. I am not especially worried about politicians unless they too are in harms way.

As for the rumor about breakfast, as I said 'I read it AFTER reading' the far more important reports on Veteran and Active Duty suicides. It seemed trivial to me compared to the far more tragic story I had just read. Knowing troops who have served it wouldn't have surprised me if it was true.


But since it appears to be more important to you and you apparently have no access to a search engine, here is the military's response:

[link:http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=118959|
DOD Takes on ‘No Breakfast’ Internet Myth]

The Internet myth’s genesis came from a few forward operating bases in eastern Afghanistan’s Paktika province that are closing or being turned over to Afghan security forces. Instead of a hot, prepared breakfast, service members at those bases receive packaged meals known as “meals, ready-to-eat,” or MREs. This streamlines the logistics for these closing bases, officials explained.

Snopes.com -- a website that looks into Internet myths -- rates this tale as “partly true.” The original email that sparked the controversy vastly overstated the extent of the “MRE for breakfast” policy. The original email also said the reason for the policy was because of DOD budget cuts. This is not true, defense officials said.


If you need any more information on the troops or would like to help in any way, let me know. I have access to google and would be happy to provide you with info on how you could help.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #254)


Response to heaven05 (Reply #343)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:11 AM

352. Thought you might be interested in

my response to a comment by sabrina 1...a comment you labelled a "great post. +1000", is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4407445



Don

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #254)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:02 AM

348. I didn't ask about the suicides because I'm well aware of the

tragedy that's occurring; I work with Vets at my local VA Hospital. It is presumptuous of you to suggest I don't care about the horrid suicide rate. Neither those vets, or I, need your patronizing or condescension so, please spare us. As a Vietnam vet, I also don't need your lectures on the hell conditions of war.

When you make claims about the way our troops are being treated (or even what some elected official did or did not say), be prepared to backup your comments with links to articles supporting your position.

The Internet myth’s genesis came from a few forward operating bases in eastern Afghanistan’s Paktika province that are closing or being turned over to Afghan security forces. Instead of a hot, prepared breakfast, service members at those bases receive packaged meals known as “meals, ready-to-eat,” or MREs. This streamlines the logistics for these closing bases, officials explained.

Snopes.com -- a website that looks into Internet myths -- rates this tale as “partly true.” The original email that sparked the controversy vastly overstated the extent of the “MRE for breakfast” policy. The original email also said the reason for the policy was because of DOD budget cuts. This is not true, defense officials said.


Based on that excerpt it would appear you were either misinformed or deliberately attempting to mislead DU'ers. BTW, I knew you were doing one or the other, misinformed or attempting to mislead (my affiliation with the VA affords me that knowledge). But, I don't care which of the two is the reality, however; I will from now on be very careful and perhaps a tad cynical about your thoughts when reading your comments. No, I won't put you on "ignore," I don't believe in that and I've learned, even the most outrageous commenters DO have times when they are profoundly insightful and sincere. Nonetheless, thank you for your informative, yet long winded, response to my question.

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Response to DonViejo (Reply #348)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:19 AM

359. I don't agree

 

with everything that this prez is about in regard to afghanistan and iraq. Sabrina gets a little passionate in her responses sometime, hell I do. Yet with people like you to set she and people like myself straight, which I count on if I am wrong, I never worry about misleading, which is unintentional. Misinformed, yeah I go for it sometimes, I'm human. thanks. back atcha

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #359)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:28 AM

361. I don't need your condescension either...

like I told Sabrina, I'm well aware of the suicide rate owing not only to my ability to read newspapers/magazine/web site articles about it but, more importantly for me, from my work with vets at the local VA hospital. She didn't "set me straight" on anything but, please continue to believe she did if it helps you to feel better about her comments.

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Response to DonViejo (Reply #361)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:39 AM

368. I hope she

 

as I am, "set straight" by people like you who are well informed. Not the other way around. No condescension meant! I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer and was misunderstood.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #368)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:48 AM

372. No problem and

no need to apologize but, I do appreciate your words. Thanks.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #359)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 06:46 PM

497. Thank you. The information on the breakfasts had just been sent to me by a Veteran.

He knows that I would be more than willing to make calls, sign petitions whatever it takes to get veterans what they are entitled to. I don't bother with people who play games other than to expose what they are trying to do.

I have sent him the information so that he can take his mind off this as he has so many other issues he is trying to deal with.

My comment was mainly about the suicides. I mentioned the rumor about the breakfasts which I had just read. Curiously, or not so curiously, the game players ignored the most important and documented information on the rate of suicides (and having experienced and intervened in one such case, I know how little help veterans get once they are out of the military, even when they are in it.

I despise people who use veterans for political purposes. I'm glad that at least the breakfast story, unlike the water and showers and benefits for dead soldiers families, was just a rumor. Truly glad, they have enough to worry about.

We lost a wonderful close family friend who was a veteran recently. He had fought for years to try to get the benefits he earned, disability for his condition, Agent Orange, from which he suffered all of his life until it finally killed him. They refused for years and years to just give him his benefits. Two years after his death, he was finally given full disability going back to when he left Vietnam. AFTER HIS DEATH. So forgive me if I err on the side of 'they are screwing the veterans again' once in a while. When I am wrong, I correct it as I did here. I used to drive him to the VA to try to get what was owed to him, sometimes waiting, in his painful condition for HOURS before even seeing anyone.

I make NO apologies for standing with the Veterans. The treatment of veterans is a disgrace and I won't shed any tears if once in a while, people believe that once again they are being screwed, based on past history.

It is instructive though to see how defensive some people here are of those who HAVE denied the veterans so many rights. My friend, eg, could have received better medical treatment IF his benefits had been given to him BEFORE he died.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #497)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:43 PM

607. no apologies needed, ever

 

for standing tall. I do my best for all vets when I can and when called upon.

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Response to DonViejo (Reply #348)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:35 AM

364. I am also aware of the suicide

 

epidemic among our current war's veterans. Years back I ran into a friend of mine at a local coffee shop sitting with another person. I stopped to chat and learned that the younger man was just back from Iraq and some of his experiences, you know no armored vehicles, lack of body armor when sent into a hostile area, all Rumsfeld related FUBAR leadership. He was back and having trouble adjusting, no job, PTSD, while he was going to VA and was in the system, I turned him on to a personal friend I had in the psychiatry department at our local VA. He got some help fairly quickly. He finally got a job, in a local store, got into classes at our university and is doing quite well, all things considered. I'm trying.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #364)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 06:09 PM

619. So glad you were able to help that young veteran.

Sometimes it helps to know someone cares. The good news is that more is now being done for those returning and according to the article I linked above, it is estimated that approx 26,000 have been saved since new programs have been made available to the veterans.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #619)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 08:00 PM

620. yep, our vet health system is

 

waking up, slowly. Good for the current vets. That piece about granting benefits 2 years after the vet died is so typical. I was turned down for agent orange poisoning for problems no one in my family had ever experienced. After a couple of years I just quit trying, and because I have a good personal physician, have them controlled. Yet when they revised the agent orange criteria I met all criteria. I didn't go back because to tell you the truth walking the hospital halls, I just figured there were many more that needed it besides an old fellow like me who had his symptoms controlled. I remember the walter reed scandal right after the bush cabal's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan...sickening. Locally I stay on the case so they don't get ignored. The va hospital in my area actually is pretty good at helping and treating the different psychological and physical problems the our vets are facing today. Yep keep up the good work and scrutiny. I'd have you in my bunker any day.

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Response to DonViejo (Reply #348)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 06:26 PM

496. I believe I already provided you with that information. Yes, I was misinformed and corrected it

I am affiliated with the VA also through several family members. Very familiar with the VA on a very personal level. I will be equally careful about your comments, giving credit where it is due, and being forthright when I believe I someone is simply playing games. Always have been straighforward with people and always will be. I have found that sometimes I was wrong about someone's intentions and have always admitted that.

The info on the breakfasts was sent to ME by a Veteran. I have set his mind at ease as understandably he was very angry about the news. It's not as if the soldiers haven't been screwed before so I would prefer to err on THEIR side when there is any doubt until the facts are known.

Oh, please with the ignore threat. Go right ahead, I do not use that feature since I am more than capable of dealing with even the most abusive people here. Several years of taking on Bush supporters was a sort of 'boot camp' for me when it comes to the nastiness some people engage in on the internet. None of it bothers me, in the words of a great Democratic President 'I welcome their hatred'. Hatred, such a wasted emotion.

Sorry if standing up for the rights of the troops, for SS, for the Environment, for the Poor, for the Working Class, against lying, corrupt war mongers like Bush/Cheney, against Wall St Corruption FOR a living wage for the working class, against tax breaks for the wealthy who take jobs out of the country among other things is OUTRAGEOUS in your opinion. In my opinion NOT being outraged at this point in time is the real OUTRAGE.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #254)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 10:55 PM

626. So you lied about the breakfasts....

 

but expect to be taken serious as a "journalist"....pretty bad "reporting"....when they were given MRE's just not a hot breakfasts....

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/27/during-drawdown-pentagon-cuts-cooked-breakfast-for/?page=all

that took me all of 30 seconds on Google to find out...

Have you apologized for this mistake yet? I haven't seen it...

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #59)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:15 AM

149. Chow Down

MIXTURE:
FALSE: Budget cuts have eliminated breakfast for U.S. troops deployed overseas.

TRUE: Hot breakfasts have been replaced with MRE for troops at some military bases in Afghanistan that are transitioning to local control.

Origins: This item about breakfast no longer being provided to U.S. troops deployed overseas has some elements of truth to it, but not to the extent suggested by the example reproduced above. It isn't true that, due to Congressional raises or fiscal cliff-related budget cuts, breakfast has been completely eliminated for all U.S. troops stationed outside the U.S. It is true that "hot chow" breakfasts have been replaced with MREs (Meals Ready to Eat) at some U.S. bases in Afghanistan because those areas are preparing for a transition to local control.

CDR Bill Speaks, Secretary of Defense Press Officer for the Afghanistan/Pakistan/Central Asia area, told us that at U.S. bases in the Paktika Province of Afghanistan (which are being transitioned to Afghan control) the meal cycle has been modified such that troops now receive breakfast as MREs rather than as hot meals:

We want to assure you that all Soldiers are receiving 4 meals per day (if they want all four). Breakfast is an MRE, lunch and dinner are traditionally served hot meals, and the midnight meal is MRE. Most dining facilities have a variety of takeaway items like cereal, milk, juice, fruit oatmeal, and granola bars to augment the MREs.

As part of the responsible drawdown of operational forces serving in Afghanistan, the staff examined ways to reduce our footprint and set the conditions for the reduction of forces. The leaders, both military and civilian, provided feedback during the process and estimated that by changing the meal cycle, they would reduce their overall operations by 40%. After careful examination, the local command in Paktika decided to modify the meal cycle. This has nothing to do with the national budget, and everything to do with our responsible reduction of forces. We see this as a good thing — even though some of our amenities may change as we head home, our Afghan partners continue to transition into the areas we once held.

The American Forces Press Service also reported that:
There is no truth to the Internet myth that Washington budget cuts have taken away breakfast for service members in Afghanistan, Defense Department officials said.


Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/breakfast.asp#yVw2yqjOJOD3Cf1y.99

Well here you go Sabrina~

I know, I know you will still blame this President for a war that he indeed did not start.

Yet here are some facts for you.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #149)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:56 AM

240. those darn "FACTS" getting in the way of a good narrative again huh?

 

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #240)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:24 AM

256. Hard to believe VR...

facts over hair on fire ...sigh. Fox News rears its ugly head.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #256)


Response to sheshe2 (Reply #256)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:47 PM

441. and right here on D.U.!!!

 

who woulda thunk?

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #149)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:29 AM

259. Would you like some information on the suicide rate among the troops which was my

main point? That makes two people more interested in playing 'gotcha' than in the terrible tragedy that has been going on for several years now.

Do not speak for me, btw. I blame everyone who ever in any way supported this travesty, voted to fund it, did not oppose it, from elected officials to voters to political partisans who ignore the lives that are being destroyed in order to try to defend their favorite politicians. Shameful really to play politics with so many, many lives. Great they are getting MREs but they ARE still dying and committing suicide and coming home maimed both mentally and physically for life.

Here is my response to those more interested in political figures than in the lives of the troops:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4406755

When politicians are in harms' way I will be as concerned about them as about those who actually are. Until then I am confident they are all doing fine so I will continue to worry more about the people who appear to be forgotten unless they can be used for political purposes.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #259)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:02 AM

274. I am well aware of the veterans that are left behind.

no need for a lecture on that.

Do not speak for me Sabrina!

Odd, that makes two people less interested in the suicide rate among veterans

than in the rumor about breakfast. You didn't ask, but here is some information on the tragic suicides of veterans. You need read the article for a breakdown of who they are. If you're interested of course.

Many are older, and then there those who commit suicide while on active duty. One a day according to this report.

Post 254



My brother was a veteran and he too committed suicide. So do not for a moment lecture me or tell me I am more interested in the 'gotcha' than the truth and the facts.

You are in fact more interested in condemning this President than supporting these troops that need help. Shame on you.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #274)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:22 AM

277. We just lost a veteran also. You wanted to play a game, and it disgusted me, sorry.

I'm sorry about your brother, truly sorry. I'm sorry about all the lives lost. I'm sorry about our family, my girl friend's brother, my friend who never was the same until death finally released him.

I've been sorry since Bush first lied us into Iraq and will continue to condemn all of it NO MATTER WHO IS IN THE WH. I frankly doubt any more that the president has any say in anything. But if he really wants to get out of all these wars then YOU'RE NOT HELPING HIM. It will be those who vehemently oppose them who will help any leader who may be unable to stop them, who end all of this. When the outrage is big enough whoever is responsible for all this killing will finally have to stop.

If it were up to me, no one would be going to fight these wars and if you don't like me continuing to speak out against them as I ALWAYS HAVE and NO, not EVERYTHING is about OBAMA. Get over this nonsense. I have not changed ONE BIT in my opinion of these invasions that are killing people, innocent people all over the place now, Somalia, Yemen and who knows where else.

and so long as people like you worry more about politicians than the real problem, THEY WILL KEEP doing it. When a repub is in power, Repubs support it, and when a Dem is in power, Dems who used to oppose it, support and defend it. And when a Repub gets in again the same Dems will again oppose it.

And they always have half the country supporting them. That is what has to change. Do not expect me or anyone else who has been saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING for over ten years now to stop just because of a change of party.

And don't waste your time playing gotcha games with me, I'm not interested. Take your little victory and enjoy it if it means that much to you. But you or anyone else, Bush supporters with all their threats and insults couldn't do it and they were far, far better at it than anyone here, couldn't stop me from saying what I think of all this.

You won a tiny internet game you were playing by yourself. Great, meantime people are still dying and until everyone says NO MORE no matter who is in the WH it will continue.



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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #277)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:55 AM

287. Amazing heartfelt statement, I would thank yet it was not.

Sorry about my brother? No Sabrina you are not. Your post states that. You can not let it go for one simple post. One that commiserates with another human being. That is telling and so very sad.

You say I am playing a goctha game and I should savor my victory. Really Sabrina?

But you or anyone else, Bush supporters with all their threats and insults couldn't do it and they were far, far better at it than anyone here, couldn't stop me from saying what I think of all this.

You won a tiny internet game you were playing by yourself. Great, meantime people are still dying and until everyone says NO MORE no matter who is in the WH it will continue.


I am sorry for any harm and pain that happened to your family for these wars. I truly wish that for one, just one post that you could have put your hate aside to respond to me, yet you could not.

My heartfelt wishes to you and yours, sabrina.

sheshe2

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #287)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 05:14 AM

291. No, you're not sorry for any pain and harm that happened to me or my family which I deliberately

do not speak about in the middle of discussions of issues that are far more important than anything that may have happened in my life, because I'm not a fan of trying to emotionally manipulate people. I don't want or need anyone's pity or sympathy so don't worry about it. I don't need you to care about me personally.

What is needed is for the entire country to care about stopping these wars. You can make stuff about those who don't see things your way all you want,which you do constantly but it won't change the facts. I've never been bothered much by internet insults so you're wasting your time and it will only make me more determined to continue to oppose these vile, vicious, brutal wars no matter who is in power.

And yes, I am sorry for every soldier and every innocent person who lost their lives and who saw their countries destroyed in wars that were for profit, and sorry that the War Criminals are still free, obscenely wealthy from their ill-gotten gains and anyone who even tries to defend any of this, should be ashamed of themselves.





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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #291)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:05 AM

541. Disgusting run you're on.

Just gross.

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Response to Desert805 (Reply #541)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:37 AM

544. Standing up for the troops has always been a 'disgusting run' to those who have supported

these criminal wars. Disgusting to see those who have been sent to fight these for-profit wars used for political purposes here on a forum that was one of the most outspoken against Bush/Cheney lying this country into war, EVEN it is just a small minority.

Disgusting comment from you, just gross and thanks for weighing in and demonstrating just how far some will go for the sake of politics.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #544)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:15 PM

603. Yuck.

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Response to Desert805 (Reply #603)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:23 PM

613. Yuck indeed. Yuck to war, yuck to lies about war. Yuck to wars for profit, yuck to sending

tens of thousands of people to die and get maimed for profit. Yuck that not one of the chicken hawk war criminals who are responsible for that soldier has yet been brought to justice. Yuck to anyone who supported, voted for, excuses, glorifies, or sweeps it under the rug for political reasons. Yuck to those who use the troops for their own gain.

Most of all yuck to hypocrites who said YUCK when Bush was occupying the WH and now shrug their shoulders.

Kudos to those who did not sell out their principles despite the nasty attacks and attempts to silence them. Kudos to them for continuing to say what they always said. THEY will be the ones to make sure no one in the future will suffer the consequences of these criminal wars.

Welcome again to DU. We appreciate your contributions.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #613)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:51 PM

615. Your schtik

Isn't nearly as clever as you think it is, but hey-- everybody needs a creative outlet.

*wavey thing*

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Response to Desert805 (Reply #615)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 06:02 PM

616. Thanks, clever was not the goal. Just facts.

Always happy when someone gets that. The old 'you think you're so clever 'schtik' has been around for a long time. Might be time to put away in the 'old talking points' musty drawer. Nothing more jaded than old talking points.

I gather you support everything I said Yuck to then? Nice to know.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #616)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 06:04 PM

618. Ok

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #277)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:54 AM

374. You respond to news of her brother's suicide by claiming she won a "tiny Internet game?"

 

WTF??????

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #374)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:10 PM

434. No, actually but don't let that stop you.

The game was played after my first comment, this is not for you btw, but for those who care about facts.

Thankfully most people here do get it.

And you respond to my post about veterans by playing yet another game, again using Veterans to do so.,

Thanks for your compassion, not that I expected any, for the veterans in my life mentioned in the post you just responded to.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #374)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:59 AM

551. Par for the course.

It shows that this really is a "tiny Internet game" to them, and not anything sincere.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #274)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:24 AM

278. Your "shame on you" is a thinly veiled "fuck you".

Shame on you for saying it to Sabrina. She supports the troops plenty in her posts and she doesn't blindly follow someone just because, she stands on principles which don't change due to who is carrying out the policies.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #278)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:32 AM

282. Thank you cui bono. No, I don't change my principles based on politics.

And this is how they keep those wars going. When a Repub is in power, Repubs support them and Dems oppose them. Then when a Dem is in power, Repubs oppose them, and the Dems who used to oppose them suddenly defend them. Then when a Repub gets in again, Repubs go back to supporting them and the same Dems who supported them, turn around again and oppose them.

So they always have support. They must love those who are so easily manipulated making it easy for them to keep their obscenely profitable wars going.

But one day maybe, people will get tired of switching from one position to another and wake up and decide that to stand on principle and maybe when that happens and they have no more support for their criminal wars, they will finally have to stop.

Until then the seesaw will keep going up and down and the wars will go on and people will continue to die until maybe we are bankrupt, which might not be a bad thing in the end, if it stopped them.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #282)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 05:05 AM

290. Thank you for all your informative posts.

And for fighting the propaganda that we have to put up with on here from the apologists.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #278)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 05:16 AM

292. Really?

so glad that you both support the troops...did you happen to read where I posted in that response that my brother committed suicide, a vet? You just said a big FU to my brother. And it was not thinly veiled.

Guess that does not matter when you are an Obama supporter. Who should I have supported that would get empathy from you?

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #292)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 05:25 AM

295. Nice try, but that deflection doesn't work.

I said nothing about your brother. Perhaps I could have mentioned I was sorry to hear about him, but I didn't as that wasn't the part of your post I was addressing. Got it? That wasn't the part of your post I was addressing. So you are completely wrong on that. How you can try to contort my post into that is beyond me.

As to your guess. Wrong again. My empathy doesn't depend on who/what someone supports. That's not what empathy is nor what it depends on. Empathy is the ability to vicariously feel another's plight or emotions, situation. What does that have to do with agreeing with that person's choice of idol or disagreeing with that person abandoning principles in order to defend a person who violates said principles?

I think you meant sympathy. Which Sabrina gave you and you flat out said she was lying about it and that she was not sorry about your brother. So what is it that you really want? What would be good enough for you? Perhaps you are the one who will only accept to get sympathy only from those who you agree with, perhaps you are projecting.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #295)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 05:44 AM

298. Oh I got it!

You, and as you said sabrina support vets..yet you left my brother out.

Perhaps I could have mentioned I was sorry to hear about him, but I didn't as that wasn't the part of your post I was addressing.


You only responded to my "shame on you"

Shame on you for saying it to Sabrina. She supports the troops plenty in her posts and she doesn't blindly follow someone just because, she stands on principles which don't change due to who is carrying out the policies.


Excellent news cui... you support only the selected ones. Oh yeah I got it.

Night, hope you sleep well.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #298)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 05:53 AM

299. Wow. Can't address what I say so you twist it all up to try to make me have said

whatever you want to respond to and use in an attempt to smear me.

Again, I said nothing about/to/in regards to your brother - good or bad, or the other troops for that matter yet you give me credit for supporting them for some reason, but only in that you are accusing me of selectively supporting the troops.

Please help me understand how you came to that conclusion, I don't get it. Can you lay it out in a logical way so I can understand how I'm doing that, especially when I didn't mention my supporting any troops at all (now don't go using that to say I don't support the troops, that's not what I'm saying but I can see you are in a real gotcha mood atm)? So go ahead, do it as if I'm a fifth grader cuz it's not making any sense to me. Unless of course you're just making a knowingly false accusation to paint me in a bad light.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #299)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:16 AM

559. That's the tactic. Bvar posted wmws's description of internet deflection tactics below and what

we are witnessing here is classic. The attempt to smear you, me, and look at the thread, almost everyone in the thread who dares to object to using the troops for political reasons, has been a total failure. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. I don't. As I said below a person's credibility here is often ENHANCED when you are attacked, depending on the attacker.

I would say you and I and all the others being targeted here are pretty safe from 'successful' smearing.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #295)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:06 AM

556. It wasn't part of the post you were addressing...

...because you thought it more important to defend an anonymous Internet poster than show compassion to someone who lost their brother to suicide.

Your empathy clearly does depend on who/what someone supports because you supported an Internet poster over impassioned comments made here.

I don't believe anyone who claims these discussions are "tiny Internet games" has any iota of empathy or sympathy toward those who are hurting. I've been on the receiving end of the veiled, cruel insinuations against others here, I know first hand.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #556)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:29 AM

568. Again, you are missing the point.

You could know what I thought by reading what I posted. What you said I thought is your false assumptions most likely based on your bias.

I already addressed the empathy part. Go ahead and reread my posts for clarification. Comprehending them will help.

And again, you are trying to make the phrase "tiny Internet games" apply to something to which it was not directed.

Really, you are just missing what happened and interpreting it in correctly. But thanks for your input.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #568)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:40 AM

573. Thanks for the dismissal.

I'm just not able to "get the point."

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #573)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:44 AM

576. Oh, and your moral judgment of me after you incorrectly decided what I thought was fine with you.


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Response to cui bono (Reply #576)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:54 AM

580. I didn't say anything about your thoughts.

I only mentioned the facts of the behaviors that were objectively observable.

I mentioned not once what your inner thoughts were.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #580)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:02 AM

581. "because you thought it more important to defend an anonymous Internet poster than show compassion

to someone who lost their brother to suicide."

That is both mentioning what I thought and making a moral judgment about me for something that never even occurred.

I can see what you're saying actually, but I was not addressing anything other than the fact that she used that phrase "shame on you".

Then she decides to attack me and claim that I selectively care about some just because of who they support, which is nothing short of absurd.

Throwing a personal loss into a debate and then using it against your opponent is less than honorable and shows that one is not having an honest debate of the issue, just trying to derail it by demonizing the other person.




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Response to cui bono (Reply #581)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:05 AM

583. That is precisely what happened.

I don't know if you put any conscious thought into it whatsoever. I don't know what your motivations are. But you did, in fact, choose to defend an anonymous Internet poster over showing compassion. That choice did involve some iota of thought, though you may not know why you're behaving this way. Your fingers took to the keyboard to make the argument.

Shame on that poster and shame on you for defending them. Whether you have shown a conscious decision to come to the aid of someone condescending others here over troop suicide, I cannot say. I know I wouldn't consciously decide to do that.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #583)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:16 AM

584. First of all, I edited my post while you were responding because I can see what you're saying

about what you were saying when you said "you thought..."

However, it doesn't mean what you think it means. I was only responding to the "shame on you" part because that is basically telling someone "fuck you". Just like "bless your heart".

Then she went and misconstrued the whole thing and doubled down in a later post by completely mangling what I was saying, even saying that I supported some troops but decided not to support her brother. That was so completely false.

No one is condescending anyone over troop suicide. She decided to put something personal in her post and then is use it to demonize anyone who doesn't glom onto that one sentence in her post and offer condolences. Then she, and now you, are misconstruing it and continuing where she left off.

If one really wants to debate an issue they would not do that, especially to the extent she did.

And I didn't miss your choice to continue the use of "shame on you" either. So I will take it as I'm sure you meant it and sign off from anything further with you. If you want further clarification you can just read my exchange with she, it's pretty clear how she completely fabricated what I was saying, especially when she claimed I said something that I never brought up at all.




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Response to cui bono (Reply #584)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 07:40 AM

589. I appreciate the edit.

I takes courage to admit an argumentative error.

I also appreciate the effect a "shame on you" has in argument, as it is a powerful phrase to use.

However, and this is a big one, if anyone had only googled the username in question and "suicide" you'd know they mentioned it before, in a very emotional thread, at that (Google "sheshe2 suicide brother". The empathetic amongst us would have done that before trying to "inform" someone of military suicides. The rather tactless, rather "tiny Internet games" amongst us wouldn't give a shit before making such a post. They just do it to hurt, to cause pain, to be completely unsympathetic toward other human beings. They wouldn't care.

I find it extremely condescending to ask another DUer, people who I consider highly informed, whether they are "informed about troop suicide." I think, especially for a DUer, to ask such a question is extremely risky, as a point of argument, because we are all informed and there's a strong likelihood we're personally affected. I myself might have been affected (personal information, but my brother almost did the same; literally moments away from it until someone intervened; the odds of that are not high, the MIC has inundated the lives of almost every American, there is just a high likelihood of a DUer being affected by this reprehensible side effect of war; which, btw, was Obama's most strident point).

"Offering condolences" is irrelevant to me, people react differently to situations, but if you're in an anonymous Internet argument, you better be prepared for the response, and if you're trying to trigger people by pulling out a very serious issue such as troop suicide, you better be apologetic if you pushed the wrong buttons. It's really simple ethics. What kind of person would do that? Who could defend that under the auspices of "that's not what we were talking about"? It is insane. I seriously would never expect this behavior in a real life conversation. That's how I frame all Internet discussion. "Would I say that over a cup of coffee face to face with someone?" Most people wouldn't. They'd know the limitations of civil discussion.

If someone said their brother killed themselves in conversation to me in real life as I used "troop suicide" as an argument, I would be mortified. I would literally slink away apologetically and just end the argument right the fuck there. There's no way I would defend myself. I would pray, I would beg for forgiveness. That would be something so far out of cultural and ethical norms for me I would probably take it to my grave as an ultimate regret. It just isn't something you shrug off in real life.

This is why I don't use "troop suicide" as an arguing point here, because I don't post as an anonymous coward, and I own everything I say. I find the effects of the MIC, including troop suicide abhorrent (we should not forget rape within the military). But as an arguing point? As a refutation to someone here? That would be abhorrent to me. Inconceivable. Someone may be affected by it. I could never use it in that manner.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #589)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 11:41 AM

597. eloquent.

This is one of those posts worth reading again.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #583)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:11 AM

630. I have asked you several times now to stop following me around this forum and using your

third party tactic to lie about me. This is the last time I am going to ask politely. I asked you not to address me because of your abusive posts, some of which were rightfully hidden airc, by the jury. Find a way to avoid discussing me I have no interest in interacting with you in any way, third party second or first.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #630)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:01 AM

634. I wasn't talking to you.

I have not addressed you.

I have not had a hidden post since September and before that for a much longer time frame.

Leave me alone and be ashamed in your using "troop suicide" as ammo in "tiny Internet games."

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #634)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:34 AM

644. This one

Has no shame.

In fact, I don't think I've ever seen anyone with such a profound lack of self-awareness.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #644)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:46 AM

646. It's messed up.

After dozens of times responding to my sub-threads, they have taken it upon themselves to extend the "don't respond to me" request to "don't respond to my sub-threads." That is simply unacceptable. I have never once responded to them after their request for me not to do so. Not once. Never. But they have decided that they can reply to me whenever they want, this is the 4th time now. It is disgraceful. I, however, have reserved the right to respond to them when they harass me personally, as I have done here, because I can't let a bully respond and post blatant falsehoods and expect me to stand down. That is simply unacceptable.

Would it be that said poster would leave me alone, I would be so utterly happy, but no, 4th time. I have kept to my side of the bargain, even as they have insulted and ridiculed me in subthreads I was in, I never responded to it. Just search our names it's easy enough to prove. I even stay far away from that poster, but they were shitting on someone I respect here, so defending that person they were shitting on directly couldn't be helped. Who uses "troop suicide" as a "tiny Internet game"? I have never come across such a reprehensible poster. Ever.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #568)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:31 PM

614. Don't waste your time cui bono. This is par for the course for this

poster. Third party attacks are still attacks and I am considering what to do about it. But a majority of the people here can read and they understand the tactics very well. Notice that missing from the conversations you are having is any discussion of the actual issue raised.

Thank you for remaining consistent on issues such as this. Thankfully so have most Democrats.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #292)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:21 PM

435. I expect you will admonish the poster who just attacked my post regarding the veterans I mentioned

in our family also? Shameful for you to attack those who have and do and will continue to call for an end to these useless, brutal wars.

I don't intend to use my family members to try to deflect from the issue, nearly everyone in this country today either has a relative or knows someone who does who has been tragically affected by these criminal enterprises.

I will continue to speak about the issue which you ignored in my first comment preferring instead to play a game with someone you perceive to be the 'enemy' for some inexplicable reason.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #278)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:03 AM

554. That poster is the one calling this "tiny Internet games."

If these very serious discussions are "tiny Internet games" to them, they should be ashamed.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #554)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:24 AM

563. You're missing what she was referring to then. She's not talking about the subject matter,

but the tactics of the poster.

All you have to do is read sabrina's posts to know she takes things very seriously.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #563)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:30 AM

569. The poster posted a falsehood.

And was corrected.

And rather than sit back and go, "Hey, you know, I was wrong, I thought that was true, and I was wrong for not fact checking, and you're right." They got all up in arms and accused the person, who's brother was lost to suicide, of playing "tiny Internet games."

Those are the facts of the situation.

If I post something that is objectively false, I will immediately apologize for my ignorance and I will not go off on some tangent about winning fake Internet points. 100% of the time. (I may send a personal PM if I am wrong and don't feel like kicking a thread, like the recent Nazi thread on Ukraine where I was wrong about the tanks being shipped in.)

I cannot take seriously anyone who admits that a serious discussion on suicide and soldiers being used as props as "tiny Internet games." I cannot respect anyone who says something like that. It doesn't help that I have been inundated with falsehoods from certain posters here for years now, and every time it happens, they never correct themselves, they never apologize, and they keep doing it, hoping no one notices.

I notice.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #569)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:38 AM

570. Just because someone loses a brother to suicide and mentions it in a long winded post

doesn't mean everyone else has to discount the rest of the post and only respond with condolences.

It's a very sad thing to have happened, but to then use it as a reason to attack others when they don't make any mention of it/continue to disagree is disingenuous. A lot of people have had losses in their lives and most likely they don't attempt to use it to nullify someone else's argument.

I'm sure you're going to say something about me being callous, but stating something like that and then using it in every post thereafter as a way to demonize the person you're arguing with is a less than honorable method of having a debate, and in fact, as we have seen here, can be used to derail the debate by making it all about whether or not the "opponent" has shown sufficient sympathy, when that's not what the discussion was about.

And I notice that.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #570)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:53 AM

579. No, callous would be too strong.

I'd say you were oblivious.

When corrected the poster literally changed the subject so troop suicides, asking if the poster would "like some information" about troop suicides. I mean, what a can of fucking worms that's gotta be, you can never know if someone is personally affected by it, so to go around "informing" people of it is pretty messed up. No empathy for those people out there who may be affected. Just the hopes that they can win "tiny Internet games."

Then what happens? The person says that they were personally affected.

And what does the poster do? Well by golly, rather than apologize for trying to win some "tiny Internet game" they come around and claim that they too were affected by army suicide. You criticize sheshe2 for her "attempt to use it to nullify someone else's argument." But not one criticism for that poster for turning the argument around and making similar comments!

I think it is deplorable that you are judging sheshe2 for mentioning her brothers' suicide after being condescended by someone wanting to "inform" them of troop suicides. Deplorable.

The discussion was first about troops getting meals, then it turned into troop suicides. Of course sympathy must come into the equation because once you start to condescend someone about something of that magnitude you better be damn sure it's rooted in reality (ie, you think they are ignorant, or have information that they don't know about troop suicides). Otherwise your character shows and you wind up looking like someone who likes to play "tiny Internet games."

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #579)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:30 AM

585. As I said, I was responding to the one thing in her post.

I didn't take on the entire subject matter. Sometimes I (and other people) respond to everything said, sometimes just to one of two things. Sorry, but I wasn't in the frame of mind to jump into the whole debate, but did feel like pointing out the "shame on you".

After that she attacked me and said I was discriminating in who I would give my "empathy" to, which was a completely personal and baseless attack, because I didn't offer condolences.

Then she fabricated the entire content of some imaginary post of mine that bore no resemblance to what I had actually said, trying to further demonize me. I was responding to that at that point. My issue with her was the "shame on you" and the fact that she tried to claim I deemed her not worthy of "empathy" because she's an Obama apologist, and then the fact that she completely made up things that I had said or not said. She made it personal attack on me at that point - a slanderous one - and that's what I was addressing. And she did so by using her brother's suicide to score points, when that wasn't part of our discussion. That's pretty bad in my eyes. Especially when you couple it with complete fabrication of what the other person said. There was no genuine attempt at honest communication, but a real attempt to smear me using falsehoods.

With that, I'm done. It really has been gone over a couple times now at least.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #585)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 07:46 AM

590. It's not about you.

Once you realize that it's not about you, you'll realize how to have a civil discussion on the Internet. You take things personally. Who gives a shit what assholes say about you (and yes, I regard the poster you're defending as one of those people who talk shit about people). If it's not true, then they can fuck off.

You say I don't get it, fine, that's your opinion, I don't care if someone claims that. "You don't understand," is something I've heard so often on the Internet it's a joke. I don't care. I focus on objective fact.

And the objective fact in this subthread is that someone thinks the suicide of someones brother is a "tiny Internet game." Full stop. Do not pass Go, do not collect $100.

Nevermind you shouldn't be using fucking suicide as an Internet arguing point. It's bound to backfire. Only those with questionable character would ever resort to that tactic. People have been affected by suicide across the board. Troop suicide is even one of the leading causes. It's insane to try to score points on it.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #274)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 09:29 AM

336. Sheshe, I am sorry for your loss of your brother.

He deserves to be recognized and his life and story remembered. Your grief deserves to be heard. Thinking of you and hoping that you are alright after this conversation.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #149)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 09:00 AM

327. Heheh...

Well done.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #327)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:06 AM

535. Thanks for that endorsement. I was hoping you chime in Sid, it instantly

raises my creds. You have no idea how valuable your opinions are to us!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #535)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 08:47 AM

592. Wait. Having your made-up stories and right-wing memes exposed as false...

... raises your "creds"?

Well, that's curious. I guess it all depends on who you're hoping will view you as credible.

Sid

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #149)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:11 AM

354. MRE's are nasty

 

unfullfilling garbage and if you've never eaten one then you are on poor footing. Have you ever been forced to eat one? Do you have to eat one every day? I want, also, to see our POTUS bring out all troops from afghanistan and iraq, ALL!!!!!! Of course we can't militarily because of our large footprint in those countries that can never be erased. Sabrina is hard on this prez, but not without reason. Our prez can do only what the bankers and PTB tell him, nothing more, nothing less, especially if critical assets such as oil and precious metals ect are present in those countries, we occupy, that bring in huge profits for the corporations...

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #354)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 11:48 AM

387. More & more I'm beginning to believe this line is true:

Our prez can do only what the bankers and PTB tell him

The Office of the President has become an icon, a representation of power, but without real power.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #387)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:45 PM

664. Worked on the 08 and 2012 elections but always knew that he will only do as...

much as TPTB allow him to do. There was a meeting in early 09 that I distinctly remember seeing the Prez come out of looking green (my olive skin kids turn green too when they are physically sick to their stomach) my gut reaction was 'they got to him and we'll see no real, reforms' so far so true, sadly.

Has the Prez done some good stuff? Absolutely and he'll get all the credit in the world for the positives but there was so much goodwill from the people, particularly in 08-2010 that was squandered. Health care was an important step but we still have a convoluted for profit system and even folks like me, who have medicare due to a disability (car accident) struggle to maintain good quality care and being able to obtain our medications. The big problem there is expensive medications with no generic alternatives are taken off the formulary.

We need a President like FDR who also faced a huge up hill battle but took no shit and didn't work to appease his detractors, he just did what he thought was best for the country and then dealing with WWII was no peach either. Of course, no president in the 21st century could get away with using the executive order close to 4000 times as FDR did but I don't think it is a virtue of President Obama to have used it 'less" than Bush, considering the country for most people is a mess and he is facing unprecedented obstruction. That is when the E/O should be used. Often they are abused, often they are misunderstood too. The conspiracy theorists subscribe to Obama E/Os that Truman or Eisenhower did.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #354)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:35 PM

405. Dude, they're better than C Rations.

Although at least with C's you got canned fruit. Still, it's like choosing between Romney and Bush.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #405)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:37 PM

407. lol

 

you are right, although I did so love the canned fruit.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #149)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 11:19 AM

382. Sure about that?

Have you ever been in the military? I have. On one deployment we were told that we were authorized an MKT - that's Mobile Kitchen Trailer for you civilians. Well, the MKT never showed up; seems they had been "over-allocated" and there were not enough to go around. So someone up the chain says, hey, no sweat, just send 'em some MRE's.
Well, guess what? We got no MRE's either. Why, you ask? Because our unit was authorized and assigned an MKT, of course! What did we need with MRE's when we had an MKT? You know, the one we never got? Shit, we were making "meals" out of crackers & canned cheese and junk we brought from home.
So DO NOT pat me on the head and tell me, or any other service member, that you know we are getting fed "because those nice people at the DOD told you so". Those bureaucratic crap-heads wouldn't know what's happening in the field if you drew it for them in crayon.

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Response to bullsnarfle (Reply #382)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 06:22 PM

495. That's horrible! Sorry you and others had to go through that.

It's important for people to hear about it so I'm glad you are sharing the info.

Welcome to DU.

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Response to bullsnarfle (Reply #382)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:52 AM

529. Yikes, sounds like catch 22.

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Response to bullsnarfle (Reply #382)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:46 AM

545. I'm really sorry you were treated that way. I know that several years ago we learned that the troops

needed items of clothing and snacks and other simple things that we thought would have been supplied by the military considering all we heard about supporting the troops. People were asked, mostly by family members, to send packages to them which of course they did, and to write to Congress to complain.

We also learned that soldiers could not even take showers sometimes the water was so dirty.

I am being admonished here for daring to make one comment about the breakfast issue and have been told that the troops are doing just fine. I know that is not the case but for those who want to protect the bureaucrats for political reasons, they will pounce on every tiny point they can find to distract from the real issues.

I hope you are home safe now and thanks for your comment.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #59)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 07:42 AM

314. every day

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #314)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:49 PM

446. It's astonishing and it isn't just recent, it goes back several years apparently. I was

shocked when I read those statistics.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:35 AM

72. He wasn't "sent". He volunteered. Your reaction

 

Maybe the reaction you're having is exactly the intended reaction. How sick and pathetic these war 'deployments' really are. He wasn't protecting America...that's the propaganda. He was protecting fellow soldiers and fighting for the corporatocracy who profited greatly by his service.
The whole thinks should make you sick and that is exactly what Obama knew many would feel...sick.
He's trying to prevent a war with Iran and prevented one with Syria. It's been a long time since soldiers actually fought for America and freedom...now they fight for profit and the war profiteers.

Obama has done far less damage than those who have opposed his every move...but he is not perfect yet the republicons are that sick and disconnected from humanity.

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Response to bjobotts (Reply #72)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:05 AM

126. I agree with your view on those moments in the speech.

A lot of young people in my community volunteer for the military. I hope this will cause some of them to pause and ask what they will be asked to fight for. Just to come home to an unlivable minimum wage? Really?

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Response to bjobotts (Reply #72)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:23 AM

162. Lots of young people "volunteer" without knowing anything about what they're getting themselves

 

into.

The distinction is pretty much meaningless.

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Response to El_Johns (Reply #162)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:02 AM

218. Lots of people volunteer because that is the only way they see to get out of poverty.

I know it was for me. I would rather have done something constructive with my time, but this society apparently doesn't give two shits about that, so instead I chipped paint for the USN for a bit so that I could actually have the money to go to college.

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Response to Sirveri (Reply #218)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 05:28 AM

296. Excellent point

and a very poor jobs program the military makes. We should, indeed, have people do something useful here at home with the money rather than sending them off to support corporate access to natural resources in foreign countries, which for the most part is what the U.S. military does. We have an economic draft.

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #296)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 11:56 AM

389. "An economic draft."

A perfect description.

And when resources become scare to the point of rationing, we will have economic rationing. There is no sense of community anymore, a sense of we're all in this together. Instead, it's you're on your own, every man for himself & if you don't have enough, tough shit for you loser.



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Response to morningfog (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:11 PM

417. I Totally Agree

I am so tired of this Obama can do no wrong BS! He's trying to fast track TPP, he'll probably end up approving KeystoneXL, he's allowing protestors and whistle blowers to be labeled as terrorists as our country's police turn in to the military, he's allowing NSA to collect meta date on ALL Americans without probable cause, he holds the record in the deportation of immigrants and NOW, he allowed a disabled veteran to be used as a prop for the military industrial complex. Basically, saying to young people...that if you go fight for the MIC and your face gets blown up & you become disabled for life at least you will get a standing ovation by a bunch of worthless tools!

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:41 PM

5. Then don't begin.

 

Spare us both the hassle.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:56 PM

21. His take is very rational and an empathetic person. I can see that those that can justify

 

war, think that exploiting a victim might be of value. This administration is continuing the "For Ever War", that is killing our soldiers and bankrupting the middle class. Drone strikes in an undeclared war in sovereign nations is wrong.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:22 AM

54. This president deftly avoided war in Eygpt, Libya and Syria . . .

yet you talk about this administration contining the "For Ever War".

I must say memories are short around here but you just have to remember all the repugs clamoring for troops to be sent to Eygpt, Libya and Syria? And just tonight this president threatening to veto any bill for sanctions against the Iran negotiations so that we give diplomacy a chance to again, AVOID WAR?

No?

C'mon, it wasn't that long ago. And you know Bush/Cheney would have been right on it with plenty of boots on the ground but you give this president no credit for getting Mubarak and Kaddaffi out and Assad to cough up the chem weapons without sending any troops.

What a tough crowd.

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Response to brush (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:39 AM

75. You've got to be joking.

 

Because I distinctly remember seeing the bombs drop on Libya and an entire fleet moved in on Syria before Kerry's off-the-cuff remark.

Fine, they weren't boots on the ground, but that's still armed conflict.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #75)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:52 AM

93. I said no boots on the ground

No 10 deployments. And he's talking about taking us off permanent war footing and negotiating with Iran instead of going to war.

Those are things you disagree with?

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Response to brush (Reply #93)


Response to NuclearDem (Reply #94)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:03 AM

118. What was your point . . .

because you certainly missed the point the President was making tonight about how 10 deployments can be avoided if we get off permanent war footing.

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Response to brush (Reply #118)


Response to brush (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:45 AM

83. Going to war in any of those countries would have been completely unjustified in the first place

 

Giving Obama credit for that is like giving him credit that he didn't invade Russia or hell, jolly ole England.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #83)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:18 AM

154. You know Bush would have jumped right in there with troops

And repugs were clamoring for war but this president had the sense not to.

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Response to brush (Reply #154)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:47 AM

207. comparing anyone to Dubya is a very, VERY low bar

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Response to Skittles (Reply #207)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:55 AM

212. How about this . . .

starting their own war is almost a rite of passage into manhood for repug presidents (even St. Ronnie). Low bar or not, this President had enough since to not jump over it, not matter how much AIPAC and the warmongers in Congress clamored for it.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #83)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:59 AM

244. because the "Last thing" one would want to do is "give him any credit"

 

right????

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #244)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:59 AM

272. Do you ever give any thought to the thousands of our troops who are still dying

every day or is it all about politics to you? Have you any idea how many will live their lives mentally and physically disabled, not to mention the huge numbers who are committing suicide every day because WE WERE LIED INTO A brutal war that was supposed to take 'months, weeks maybe' and now it's more than a decade later and we destroyed a country and its people who DID NOTHING to us?

Millions of human beings had their lives destroyed, we're still DRONING men, women and children, beautiful little children who have a RIGHT to live in their own countries, and all you can worry about is politics??

Sometimes it makes me sick and so long as we have people who care more about their politics than about the precious lives that are being lost every day due to our 'humanitarian bombs' it will NEVER end because of all the enablers who ignore the tragedies being committed in their names. I would like to send all of them to live under our bombs and drones for a week if I could. Maybe THAT would get them to focus on the REAL problem. Which is not OUR politics, it is LIVES, human lives!

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Response to brush (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:57 AM

100. We WERE in Libya and are behind the scenes in Egypt and Syria using our 'proxy' armies

because we can't show our own faces in the ME anymore after Iraq. Hillary even boasted about the 'new way to fight wars' using 'proxy armies' you know, from the dictatorships we support like Qatar and Bahrain and of course the Saudis who finance and supply 'insurgents'.

We did not stop a war in Syria. The British Parliament, finally had enough and said 'no way' after which without our closest Imperial ally, the US had to do an about face.

If you want proof, we have plenty of videos of Kerry et al pushing for 'intervention' to 'save the poor people of Syria' knowing full well that our buddies the Saudis were killing those poor people. The Brits couldn't ignore the proof that they were, would be, arming the most extreme terrorists who were responsible for the ongoing conflict there and their own people are still OUTRAGED over the lies that got them into Iraq.

Let's not rewrite history especially when the facts are so easily accessible.

We are never going to stop these wars, we are everywhere, in Africa, in the ME and we are still trying to get back to S. America, unless someone else stops us. The Brits did it with Syria. Hopefully for the sake of the lives at stake, someone will put an end to these insane wars.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #100)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:18 AM

155. I think we just bombed some people in Somalia...and we have

what's called a "small contingent" of "Boots on the Ground" we sent in there. But, now we are bombing. No declared War Action, though. We don't have to fake that kind of clearance with Congress or UN anymore... Of course..we've always done wars in places without having to get the "proper clearance" .....so there are those who would say there's nothing new going on here with this President that hasn't been done one way or the other in our past "interventions/proxy wars" & such. There are even those who think that Obama is ending all our wars and interventions.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #155)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:25 AM

166. There are undeclared wars all over the globe.

 

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #100)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:02 AM

217. Well at least your take on Syria is different . . .

than what is most often said around here. Many give Putin the credit for getting Syria to cough up the chem weapons.

And c'mon, you know Bush would've rushed in there with our troops and not bothering at all with any proxies.

And the president is the first president to acknowledge a need to get off a permanent war footing. I don't know about you but that remark made me sit up in my chair. That's signaling a MAJOR, MAJOR policy rethinking for a country that has been involved in coups, occupations, wars and assassinations CONTINUOUSLY since we sent gunboats to back ex-pat American planters in their overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy in the 1890s.

You have to know that weaning America off war is like turning an oceanliner. It's a long, slow process with a lot of forces trying to jerk the wheel towards their war of choice.

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Response to brush (Reply #217)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:42 AM

266. No, Bush would have WANTED to go to Syria, there is no question about that, but the world

and some of our 'allies' don't have the stomach to repeat the horrible travesty they got themselves involved in Iraq and Afghanistan and wherever else we dragged then to. The same thing would have happened. I cheered when Parliament, surprisingly because they have a long, long, long history of invading other countries, finally said 'no'. Probably because the Brits are still trying to nail Tony Blair for his lies so politicians there are a bit more wary than ours who have no fear of accountability.

I'm hoping more of our 'allies' at least our Western allies, do the same thing. We still have all those other allies unfortunately, like Bahrain dictatorship and the Saudis who are thrilled to send their troops to invade other countries on our behalf.

But Syria was a small glimmer, too late for all those who already died, of hope that at least some of our allies have had enough of the killing and torture and the hell that is war.

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Response to brush (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:58 AM

241. sshhhhhh!!!! You are messing up that good narrative....!!!

 

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #241)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 09:18 AM

331. It is a good narrative

and I appreciate reading it and considering it. Please don't try to bully and silence people on DU. Some of us come here to hear multiple points of view.

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Response to Chiquitita (Reply #331)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 11:11 AM

377. If that poster stopped bullying

it wouldnt post here anymore. just full ignore the loyalist drones.

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Response to bobduca (Reply #377)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:54 PM

412. Amen! n/t

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Response to QC (Reply #412)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:55 PM

451. awwww....I am such a bad bad bully!

 

you just cannot stand up to some criticism is what the problem is....under scrutiny your positions all collapse like a house of cards!! Fold like a cheap suit! This thread exemplifies that!

Please continue....there is still just a little rope left for you right there!

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Response to bobduca (Reply #377)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:52 PM

450. have I hurt your fee fee's?

 

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Response to Chiquitita (Reply #331)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:52 PM

449. meanwhile....did you watch the SOTU yourself?

 

I am berating someone who DID NOT! And they call themselves a Democrat AND post on a Democratic Forum...

But DIDN'T what the Democratic President deliver the SOTU address in a midterm election year...

SPEAKS volumes about those posters doesn't it?

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #449)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:58 PM

453. Yes, I watched it with my husband

We were folding laundry and listening to the end. Peace Vanilla.

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Response to Chiquitita (Reply #453)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:01 PM

454. Well I was replying to people who DID NOT!

 

and YOU were defending them...


perhaps read before you defend someone....NO EXCUSE for someone who calls themselves a Democrat or who post on a Democratic forum...NOT to watch the Democratic President deliver a SOTU just on principle....that dog don't hunt!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #454)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:14 PM

457. Okay Vanilla

I hear you. You hear me. I have a right to write here. You have a right to write here. It's all good. I hope you can see that there is no harm in all of us listening to each other. It's okay, I think. It helps us get farther in our thinking. At least it helps me.

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Response to Chiquitita (Reply #457)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:21 PM

459. if you didn't watch the SOTU last night....you have no reason to take a position

 

do you? And furthermore....just accepting someone else's opinion of it as fact is even more egregious...and has been documented several times in this very thread...

The one thing I truly love pointing out....is Hypocrisy! This is the epitome of it!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #459)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:51 AM

546. I didn't see you point out any hypocrisy. Nor did I see anyone 'just accepting someone else's

opinion'. Scratch that, there are a few who just accept opinions told to them by others.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #546)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:00 AM

552. Of course YOU didn't

 

why would that surprise me in the least? The very same people who are accusing others of being "lock step" are the ones that are IN lock step!

There you go...in case you missed it...I however didn't!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #552)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:04 AM

555. Lol, you sound frustrated. Can't say I blame you. If I realized that a vast majority of

Democrats were failing to get my point, I'd be frustrated also.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #555)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:21 AM

561. Oh goody...here comes page seven in the manual...when you accuse me of hysterics

 

or that I am "upset" or "angry"


hahahahaha yeah...right!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #561)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:25 AM

564. Why, has that happened to you a lot? You seem to have a lot of bad experiences

with people. That's too bad, I wonder why that is?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #564)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:27 AM

566. hahahahaha! You are so funny...

 

No I have a lot of FUN! You don't even know how much fun I have!


Is this page 8 where you accuse me of not having any allies?

One of my talents in life is the ability to see patterns slightly better than the average bear...

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #566)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:38 AM

571. You're funny too.

I can only imagine all the fun you have.

Hey, since we're both having so much fun let's make it a party.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #571)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:41 AM

575. what? This is the best you got?

 

whatever dude...I'm not having fun WITH you....I am having it AT your expense!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #575)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:48 AM

577. You got that backwards! Dude!

Who's having fun with whom again?



I think that's pretty obvious, Dude!

Hey, thanks for playing and helping to keep this thread kicked!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #577)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:52 AM

578. no actually I didn't...and you really suck at this..

 

I don't care about the thread...YOU seem to...though....now we know what your "motivations" are...pretty pathetic...

did you run out of "manual"?

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #449)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 06:02 PM

617. There's a scolding, hysterical quality to your posts.

I am berating someone who DID NOT! And they call themselves a Democrat AND post on a Democratic Forum...

But DIDN'T what the Democratic President deliver the SOTU address in a midterm election year...

SPEAKS volumes about those posters doesn't it?


Reminds me of a certain someone, a "famous" DUer driven off by the meanie leftists, hmm, a ranter, what's her name?

While your performance in this thread is impressive, it doesn't quite match some of the gems in the male/rape/orgasm thread.

out of

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:11 AM

30. So amazingly wrong--it's sickening. nt

 

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:18 AM

43. This is an introduction to a rational dialog.

Please take it as such whether you agree or not.

I understand what PBO was saying -- I love that the camera focussed on Congressperson Tammy Duckworth during the extended applause.

That was what this was about. If you do not understand that you do not understand what President Barack Obama was saying.

You might have said similar about Tammy Duckworth.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:47 AM

371. Maybe start with 'ruined'

My late husband lost both legs in VietNam, but he wasn't 'ruined.' He hated the word 'disabled'...he preferred 'challenged' as in 'physically damaged.'
With a grin, he used to say that he actually preferred the word 'gimp'...he said it was one syllable and reminded him of 'cute'.
But, Will, I do know you meant it with compassion and caring so I don't hold that against you. I really do get where you're coming from, but I bristled starting with that one word...maybe just my own prejudice. There IS no easy way to talk about the changes in men, women and children due to unjustified war (I actually think WWII was justified, especially and mostly after seeing the concentration camps 'tho not the dropping of atomic bombs, but that's many other threads!)

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:39 PM

420. Tell me ?

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 05:44 PM

482. This soldier voluntarily went back time and again. I think the OP is very wrong, also.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 08:29 PM

504. Mr. Pitt was spot on.

and I am not one to say that very often.

Mr. Pitt, I hope you don't change your mind in the morning.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:40 PM

2. It was an offensive finish. And I really don't get the reason to draw

 

attention to our national (and Obama's Presidential) failures. Because that is what 10 deployments are.

Shameful and nothing to cheer.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:16 AM

35. You didn't get the reason???? Because we have idiots who want war with Iran....

 

Did you completely miss the fact that the President wasn't happy about the 10 deployments???? Did you really not understand that the President was holding this soldier up as patriot, and not something to be used?

"We must give diplomacy a chance to succeed." Did you miss what he had to say about Iran?

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:19 AM

46. The President chose to continue the need for many of those depolyments.

 

I heard what he said about Iran. I applaud that.

The 10 deployments as a point of pride or honor, no. His point could have been made without the poor soldier. Especially since there is still no real end in sight to permanent war.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #46)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:44 AM

81. It's really too bad you missed the point about the 10 deployments. Sad. nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #81)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:51 AM

91. Ah, don't let it get you down, Ms. Not everyone is willing to cheer the product of endless war.

 

Especially when the one delivering the applause line is the Commander in Chief who has kept it going for 5 years (and counting).

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Response to morningfog (Reply #91)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:58 AM

102. Neither you, nor the OP could be bothered to use the name of the soldier you are so outraged about.

 

Pretty telling who thinks Cory Remsburg is a prop.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #102)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:05 AM

128. And you, as per usual, cannot engage without making it about DU posters.

 

Telling in itself.

I have no reason to use Cory's name. I'm not using him as a rally call. I think he was fucked over by our country and the past two presidents. Obama saw him before his 10th deployment. Obama was the CiC who sent him BACK for his 10th and the one that damn near killed and left him forever injured. It is Obama's choice to continue the pointlessness that is the Afghanistan war, now in the 13th year. He was not brought out to show why the wars must end, far from it. The reaction he got was clear. We will engage in wars despite what it does to our people. We will abuse and break them and then cheer for it.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #128)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:09 AM

136. Again--neither you, nor the OP could be bothered to use Sgt. Remsburg's name or rank in your pursuit

 

of your agenda....so I know who thinks this soldier is a prop, and who thinks this soldier is a dire imprecation to avoid war in Iran.

Sgt. Remsburg chose to be there tonight. I respect his sacrifice.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #136)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:24 AM

165. Well look at you! You put in the effort to find out his rank!

 

LOL! I expect your next post will list the times and locations of his 10 deployments.

"dire imprecation to avoid war in Iran"

Now, that is hilarious. I hope you didn't hurt yourself in that stretch.

I have no agenda, so kindly get over yourself. This is a message board for fuck's sake.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #165)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 07:50 AM

317. So you didn't actually watch the SOTU? How did you.miss his name and rank, then?

 

I didn't have to find it out, because it was said more than once.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #136)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:29 AM

176. I'll add this.

 

I find you utterly obnoxious and disruptive. You do nothing but draw posters in with childish personal attacks. Your schtick is tired and rather sad. Off to ignore.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #176)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:40 AM

285. + 1000 n/t

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #285)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 08:09 AM

319. I think you should apologize for the Snopes incident upthread....nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #319)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:47 PM

443. Didn't even have to look, I knew it was you. You should be ashamed of using the troops

for political purposes.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #319)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:09 AM

557. And the "tiny Internet games" comment.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #176)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 08:36 AM

322. Why anyone on this board

addresses this posters never ending argle bargle is beyond me.

Sad is right.

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Response to Puglover (Reply #322)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 09:19 AM

332. Quintessential trolling.

 

Constant condescension, disrespect and personal attacks. Always disruptive. Rarely about subjects other than DUers. Unfortunately the jury system isn't designed to deal with this type of poster.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #332)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:41 AM

370. Pointing out that neither you, nor the OP could be bothered to use the name of the soldier

 

you were so outraged about is disconcerting, I'll grant you.

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Response to Puglover (Reply #322)

Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:57 AM

549. Most people don't engage I've noticed. You're right, never ending repetitive 'argle bargle'.

It's a tactic. Use the headline box to create a false impression about other DUers and then repeat and repeat it hoping someone will believe it. I think everyone knows what is going on by now.

The only reason I respond to nonsense like that is to kick threads that are interesting. Might as well get some use out of it.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #102)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:30 AM

280. OMG.... lololol....

That is hilarious. You think you can discount what they said simply because they didn't use the soldier's name???

Wow.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #280)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 11:18 AM

381. truly pathetic

The loyalist bucket brigade is out in force!

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Response to bobduca (Reply #381)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:08 PM

468. No shit!

I can almost hear the furious mashing of keys. Sad, but not unexpected.

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Response to bobduca (Reply #381)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 05:46 PM

483. Will predicted their appearance, and their attacks.

The phony, manufactured outrage is transparent.


woo me with science describe them perfectly
The goal is not to convince anyone of anything.

It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur. Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.

woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801



Well Done, Woo.
Thanks.

You will know them by their WORKS!

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Response to cui bono (Reply #280)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 06:11 PM

493. Pointing out that you didn't use the

soldiers name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................for the 59th time in this thread and no one is doing anything but LOL at me.

Christ even Elle Woods got her point across quicker then that.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:44 AM

199. Not offensive to the troop that was being honored, or to his father...

 

...or to the many progressive Dems who stood and applauded as part of that moment. You are pretty much in a minority on this nonsense as well as the OP.

Seriously, you are gonna talk shit about the President of the United States honoring a combat injured veteran as a SOTU speech, you and the OP are both transparently stretching and twisting yourselves into pretzels to talk shit about something like that? That's the only thing here that is offensive.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #199)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:48 AM

208. I'm fine with being in the minority.

 

Why do you take it so personal that you have to try and make it about me?

I'm sick of war. I'm sick of parading injured vets. I'm sick of pep rallies. I'm sick of wars without end. 13 years we have been at war. Enough.

It would be more enjoyable to discuss it with you if you didn't try to make it about me. But, it tells me about what I am dealing with.

It was a cheap finish. Can't we stop holding wars and vets up as applause lines? I hope that the soldier recovers fully and I suspect that since he was so badly injured, he won't go back for an 11th deployment even though the war drags on.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #208)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:56 AM

213. You called this man's story "shameful and nothing to cheer".

 

So don't lecture me about saying something personal or nasty.

We are all sick of war and that was the point being made and the President made it in a tasteful way that seemed to resonate with a lot of folks. There was nothing cheap or shameful about it. It was grade A genius and genuine at the same time. The war has been perpetually winding down for awhile now. Its is going to be over this year, small presence or no presence at all. Theres a certain point where its no longer a war and its pretty much getting to that point.

Obama isn't ending the policy international troop presences that we've had in many countries for many decades. But he is ending the general state of war we've been in and that's undeniable if you are being honest. And he fighting against both parties on Iran right now, favoring peace and diplomacy.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #213)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:12 AM

251. phleshdef,

I watched tonight, so moving to see Cory and his Dad. He was so proud to be there. It broke my heart. He volunteered over and over to serve his country.

So sad for those here that are basically calling him a tool and a fool for being there. He was a prop and Obama used him.

Sad to say some will never get it. Not ever.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #213)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 07:40 AM

313. Bullshit. You are making shit up now.

 

And still being dishonest and nasty.

But now it was genius!!! Fucking hilarious.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:02 AM

245. It wasn't cheering...why can't you see that?

 

it was pointing out WHY we want to avoid going to war....because there are REAL consequences......


the only cheering was for his continued success in his recovery....not the fact that he was injured. If they had cheered for someone fighting cancer...would you think that they were cheering for the Cancer too?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:40 PM

3. I honestly was ashamed. n / t

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Response to GP6971 (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:06 PM

393. It worked. We should be ashamed of war. We should be ashamed of 10 deployments.We should be ashamed.

Last edited Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:22 PM - Edit history (1)

We should fight to stop this from happening to anyone, soldier or civilian. We should admire the soul of this young man who is fighting every day to regain his life. War is shameful and the last resort. If this disgusted us than it did its job. War is disgusting.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:44 PM

7. interesting take

 

I'm glad to see the different reactions as someone who didn't watch it. I think I would have had the same reaction as you did.

And yea, I think your description of "to-the-knife Obama defenders" is extremely apt.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:20 AM

51. I'm with you on this.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:03 AM

119. I think I would have, too. When I saw the line up of those

to sit with Michelle (hand picked) I decided not to watch and wait to read the transcript tomorrow...but, agree ...if I'd watched what Will Pitt says I would have had to run out of the room and barf. So...I'm glad I didn't watch.

I think it was Reagan who started those "Photo Op Moments" where hand picked people who would be props for something in the SOTU would sit next to the First Lady and be picked out of the audience to stand up and take a bow. It seems to have taken hold so that all the rest of them now feel it "adds some marketing value" to focus on and parade these seleted people for whatever their reason is to make a point in their speeches.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:25 AM

167. I am glad I did not watch it.

I find things like that embarrassing...embarrassing for our country and our government.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #167)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:26 AM

169. same here

 

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Response to zeemike (Reply #167)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:07 AM

247. so you take positions on things you never even witnessed yourself???

 

that's quite enlightening! but not about the President...

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #247)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:11 AM

249. I see a lot of progressives here, whom I respect, saying the same things that did see the speech

 

and on the other hand, I see the BOG-er types who defend the president no matter what, and frankly always sing Obama's praises, saying something different. Well, that is an easy choice for me on whose side to take, and who I think I would tend to agree with more.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #249)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:13 AM

252. Yeah....right...I see ALOT of the same people who all claim not to have seen it...

 

but are still taking positions on the SOTU.....it is quite amusing...please continue Y'all!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #247)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 10:26 AM

360. And there is something wrong with that?

You mean you have to witness a murder before you can take a position on it?

And BTW this is not my first rodeo....I have seen SOTU speeches before and seen them exploited in that same way and every time it embarrass me...particulary when it is someone I voted for.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #360)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:44 PM

439. you are comparing a SOTU with a murder now?

 

I thought you all were against the "lock step" mentality....seems "not so much" when it comes to President Obama huh?

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #439)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 04:25 PM

471. I compared no such thing.

I commented on your claim that you had to witness something before you comment on it.

So you think a "lock step" mentality means you critisize?...talk about turning things on their head.

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #247)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 11:14 AM

379. Your act is tiresome

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Response to bobduca (Reply #379)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:21 PM

401. Clue.....

So is yours.

Give the ankle biting a rest, already.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #401)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:42 PM

409. appeals to age, check

got anything but dishonest rhetoric?

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Response to bobduca (Reply #409)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:51 PM

429. No, just characterizing the nature of pointless jeering.

check.

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Response to bobduca (Reply #409)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:49 PM

445. It's now dishonest to point out "dishonest rhetoric"?

 

since when...because that is EXACTLY what I was pointing out here....

If you are relying on someone else's opinion of the SOTU....then YOUR rhetoric IS dishonest on its face!

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Response to bobduca (Reply #379)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:46 PM

440. My "act" is the truth!

 

got a problem with witnessing for myself? If you didn't see it yourself...and are relying on what W.Pitt says as YOUR opinion then YOU are walking in "lock-step" which is what I thought you all hated!!!


BHWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Not so much when it comes to hating Pres. Obama...as THIS thread so obviously points out....I am still laughing at this thread...

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Response to zeemike (Reply #167)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 11:25 PM

517. Yes.

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:46 PM

8. Me Two

I am glad you saw it like that, Will. Gives me hope. And when by tomorrow, you start to see good points in the speech, that's fine as well.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:48 PM

10. Human beings reduced to fodder and props.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:51 PM

13. ouch, poetic and harsh at the same time

 

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Response to rug (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:04 AM

123. sadly...yes.. eom.

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Response to rug (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:28 AM

172. Or to put it another way, the human face of jingoism

Or rather, the results of jingoism. GWB was great about rattling the saber and talking about sacrifice, but this is a person who paid the price for that rhetoric. I think the country - especially Congress - needs to be reminded that the desires to have wars have human consequences.

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Response to Retrograde (Reply #172)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 11:13 AM

378. he's trying to make a point that the saber-rattlers dont want to hear.

And he has to do it within the accepted tropes of the occasion.

I don't think Sgt. Remsberg misunderstood the implications of why he was there.

If he were unknowingly being used as a prop, that would make him pretty stupid.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:50 PM

12. What a Fuck

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:51 PM

14. Thanks, Will.

 

Rec

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:52 PM

15. I think the point is missed here. President Obama had a personal relationship with that soldier.

 

He asked that we get off a permanent war footing for the very reason of that soldier's destroyed life. But then, who are we to judge for that soldier who seemed to not to be offended by being there. The "sometimes we make mistakes" was a collective "we" to me. And yes, we make mistakes, war is a mistake to me, but for many war is an answer and I think exposing us to that soldier show the very real consequences of the mistake of war.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:53 PM

16. Now Will... You Once Called ME Devisive On DU...

 



But I hear ya brother.

Tomorrow never knows.

& Rec !!!



And... met you in SF with other DUers when you were speaking to veterans...





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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:53 PM

17. agreed

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:55 PM

18. Now, now William

I thought he was in great form. We needed a squishy-type of speech to make us feel good again. When we feel good, we spread cheer and renew hope.

That's what we really needed. A renewal of hope, a lot of which has dissipated, and he knows that...

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:55 PM

19. Yeah that part turned my stomach too

The soldier seemed to appreciate being there. So I guess that's something.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:55 PM

20. USA! USA!

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jan 28, 2014, 11:56 PM

22. I agree

disgraceful

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:01 AM

23. Will, I didn't see it, and I won't see it

 

as I am sick enough already with the cold weather and some nasty bug.

But I've seen enough of these grotesque dog-and-pony SOTUs to not only believe you, but to feel queasy myself. And I know it's not something I ate, either.

Thanks for watching it, so I didn't have to. There's only so much pain a body can stand. I owe you one.




PS: I have a Vietnam vet for a neighbor...a totally inoffensive, disabled man (closed head injury, I believe, and some mental disability). He's hard to converse with, because of it. He's not living on the streets because he has family with money to keep him housed and all.

NO MORE VETERANS! AND NO MORE VICTIMS! NO COLLATERAL DAMAGE--THAT DISGUSTING EUPHEMISM!

NO MORE DRONES! NO MORE SPECIAL OPS! NO MORE WARS OF AGGRESSION, INTERVENTION, OPTION.

YANKEE COME HOME!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:01 AM

24. I have nothing to add. You said it well. Fuck those that use war for profit or political gain.

 

Fuck I say.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:05 AM

25. I am glad I missed it...

 

I was watching something on the Wounded Warrior Project, wondering why the government doesn't do something about these vets. It pisses me off that they have to depend on private charity when it should be handled by the VA.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:33 AM

182. You need to watch it. It was a fitting tribute to a recovering soldier...

... Who his Commander-in-Chief (PBO) had met and personally interacted with before he later met his fate after volunteering for his next (10th) deployment to Afganistan.

He was honored with a 3 minute standing ovation by the leaders of all branches of our, perhaps imperfect, constitional democracy in the US Capital at the SOTU. Thereafter, the CIC announced that he would no longer keep the USA on a "permenant war footing."

So, i get it. Every last soldier in Afganistan will not be flown back tomorrow. I still fail to understand how this event could be spun in to an indiciation of an Obama character defect.

Sometimes cynicism just hardens the heart.

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Response to farmbo (Reply #182)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:29 AM

233. You may be right...

 

but i am sick to death of the whole "support the troops" BS when we, in fact, do not. We use these people to make ourselves feel better.

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Response to farmbo (Reply #182)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 02:51 AM

237. Thank you. And I totally agree.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:10 AM

26. Really? Joe Biden, Elijah Cummings, Nancy Pelosi, John Lewis, Michelle Obama, Dr. Biden, John Kerry

 

Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren.....all the Democratic Senators, all the Democratic House reps......all the Cabinet...Madame Justice Ginsburg.....

These are the worst roomful of people?????

I saw that soldier, and I applauded him for his sacrifice. His sacrifice not just for the worst, Will, but for us, for ALL OF US. We ALL bear that burden, that lesson.

Don't you see, Will....what the President was saying, coupled with his remarks on Iran?????


Never, ever again....because this is the price. That was the price--lest we never, ever forget it.



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Response to msanthrope (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:16 AM

38. His sacrifice was not for ALL OF US.

 

We have not benefited from these wars. Quite the opposite.

Absolutely we should say never again, but deployments will continue tomorrow and for the foreseeable future.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:20 AM

50. thank you. I noticed that jingoistic bullshit war excuse too

 

not surprised by their post though.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:21 AM

53. Benefit??? What benefit did you or that soldier get? The point your President made was that

 

a sacrifice was made, with no benefit to either to the soldier or the body politic. And coupled with his remarks on Iran, it was a clarion call that this cannot happen again.

I am sorry you didn't get it.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:22 AM

55. Yeah, that "worst roomful of people"...not quite.

Many I don't respect, but many I do.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:25 AM

168. OP's post is worse than his "goddamned incoherent" moment.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:28 AM

173. +1

We'll said, msanthrope. Some folks will stand in the tropical rain and accuse someone of pissing on their cupcakes. *shrug*

My favorites are all the people commenting who didn't even bother to watch it. Ridiculous.

I wonder how much the Heritage Foindation is paying them?

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Response to Desert805 (Reply #173)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:10 AM

248. "My favorites are all the people commenting who didn't even bother to watch it. Ridiculous."

Hey who needs an informed opinion when there's a'kicking and a'recing of the latest anti-Obama spiel to be done??!

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Response to Desert805 (Reply #173)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 03:12 AM

250. I notice that too...and none surprising at all...

 

it was amazing how many of them just accept someone else's opinion when they had every opportunity to make up their own. Quite telling about some....

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 07:50 AM

316. His 'sacrifice' was a mighty waste.

Fuck the rah rah crowd.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:10 AM

27. No, Will… Don't change your mind about this tomorrow… It is RIGHT

And, the Republicans rolled out their female version of the whole passion play.

I'm not impassioned. I kept going back to the Star Trek re-runs, so you see… I'm not sick to my stomach right now. At least the Enterprise has vision.

K&R

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:10 AM

28. Glad I "stayed home". That shit is WHY I did. Cannot STAND it. k and R

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:11 AM

29. That's all you got out of the speech?

Nothing worth mentioning about the President taking us off a permanent war footing so solders don't get injured on their TENTH deployment?

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Response to brush (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:25 AM

58. This gets the most

recs, doesn't? The one that doesn't understand shit about what was being said?

the big "derp" one?

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Response to Cha (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 12:52 AM

92. o Cha. lol

 




the big derp one

The Big Derpowski
Hey, that SOTU speech held the room together, man.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #92)


Response to Whisp (Reply #92)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:12 AM

143. Divisive Bullshit.. par for the

fucking course, Whisp.

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Response to Cha (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 01:17 AM

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