The New Yorker: SNOWDEN CALLS RUSSIAN-SPY STORY “ABSURD”

[Luminous Animal]

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2014/01/snowden-calls-russian-spy-story-absurd.html

Some observers, looking at the possibility that Snowden was in league with the Russian government before taking asylum there, have pointed to a report in a Russian newspaper, Kommersant, that before leaving Hong Kong last June Snowden stayed at the Russian consulate. Snowden’s legal adviser, Ben Wizner, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union, denied that report, however, saying, “Every news organization in the world has been trying to confirm that story. They haven’t been able to, because it’s false.”

Snowden told me that having a “go bag” packed—something that Rogers described as highly suspicious—reflected his work deployed overseas for the C.I.A. He’d had a “go bag packed since 2007. It’s not an exotic practice for people who have lived undercover on government orders,” Snowden said.

“It’s not the smears that mystify me,” Snowden told me. “It’s that outlets report statements that the speakers themselves admit are sheer speculation.” Snowden went on to poke fun at the range of allegations that have been made against him in the media without intelligence officials providing some kind of factual basis: “?‘We don’t know if he had help from aliens.’ ‘You know, I have serious questions about whether he really exists.’?”

The Nixon admin tried to smear Ellsberg as a Russian spy...

https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/blog/2014/01/russian-spy-tactics-used-rep-rogers-snowden-were-pioneered-nixon-admin-against-daniel

Before Snowden, Nixon Admin Pioneered Evidence-Free 'Russian Spy' Smears Against Daniel Ellsberg

While it’s well-known that Rep. Rogers has a long history of making things up and telling the media, it's less known that his tactics are drawn straight from Richard Nixon’s playbook, when his administration tried to discredit Daniel Ellsberg after he leaked the Pentagon Papers to the New York Times in 1971.

Ellsberg is commonly looked at as the quintessential whistleblower today, but shortly after he leaked the top secret Vietnam War study, the Nixon administration made a concerted effort to paint him as a Soviet spy in the press, using anonymous quotes and non-existent ‘secret’ evidence. (Sound familiar?)

This is from the New York Times on August 11, 1973:

An attorney for Dr. Daniel Ellsberg has chided the Senate Watergate committee for failing to challenge what he called “totally false and slanderous” testimony by the former White House aide, John D. Ehrlichman, suggesting that Dr. Ellsberg delivered copies of the Pentagon papers to the Soviet embassy.

“During his testimony before your committee, Mr. Ehrlichman repeatedly asserted that the Pentagon papers had been given in 1971 to the Soviet Embassy and implied that this might have been done by my client, Dr. Daniel Ellsberg, or with his knowledge,” the attorney, Leonard B. Boudin, who wrote the committee. “These allegations are made of whole cloth; they are totally false and slanderous of Dr. Ellsberg.”

[pscot]

1. The more things change

the more they remain the same.

[Vattel]

2. At DU, this post may not generate the intended response.

Smearing is generally regarded as acceptable around here.

[Luminous Animal]

8. Meh. It's the same 9 people stuck on auto-replay. Most of DU supports

Snowen's leaks.

[bobduca]

28. the same 9 people

each of them bringing their very special 4-5 friends along to also Rec Smears.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

167. 9? You wish. Far more than that on DU

[randome]

3. I don't subscribe to the theory that Snowden was a Russian spy.

But calling the notion 'absurd' makes no sense. From an objective standpoint, it's a reasonable hypothesis.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[JaneyVee]

5. Same here, I doubt it, but it's entirely plausible.

[Luminous Animal]

10. "Comrade Eddie, we need you to infiltrate the NSA and steal their secrets."

"Okey-doke, but first I am going to hand them over to American reporters!"

Yeah, right. Totally reasonable.

[1StrongBlackMan]

165. How about ...

"Comrade Vlad ... There's an American with information we can use ... Let's accommodate him."

[sabrina 1]

12. It is not a reasonable hypothesis that he is a Russian spy, what IS a reasonable hypothesis is that

our Government is lying, far more reasonable.

Why did the US Govt force Snowden to stay in Russia IF they thought he was a spy?

[randome]

37. It's standard practice to yank an international fugitive's visa.

Why is that hard to understand?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[struggle4progress]

62. The US hasn't forced Snowden to stay in Russia. His passport, however,

was properly revoked under the regulations 22 CFR 51.60, as the holder was "the subject of an outstanding Federal warrant of arrest for a felony" and was "the subject of a request for extradition or provisional request for extradition which has been presented to the government of a foreign country." It may further have been properly revoked on the grounds that the holder's "activities abroad are causing or are likely to cause serious damage to the national security or the foreign policy of the United States"

[sabrina 1]

118. Why did they US wait until he was landing in Russia to make sure he couldn't leave there?

If they didn't want him Russia, seems odd they made sure to keep him there. I guess they weren't worried about him being a 'russian spy'. It's just laughable, really. We are embarrassing ourselves around the world.

[struggle4progress]

160. The distinction between the Legislative branch and the Executive branch must be mastered

by anyone who wishes to obtain even the most rudimentary understanding US politics, as is distinction between the major political parties

Mike Rogers is a Republican representing Michigan's 8th Congressional district since 1994: as a Congressman, he has no direct Executive power and plays no immediate role in the agencies enforcing US law

The Executive branch is headed by President Obama, who has been in office since 2008: he is the boss of all the agency heads, including the State Department, which handles US passports and is headed by John Kerry. I have already provided reference to 22 CFR 51.60 governing passports; and application of 22 CFR 51.60 in the Snowden case seems entirely routine and by-the-book -- an indictment against him was unsealed on 21 June, his passport revoked on 22 June, and on 23 June Aeroflot allowed him to board a plane for Moscow

Also on 23 June,

... Mr. Assange .. said his group had arranged for Mr. Snowden to travel via a “special refugee travel document” issued by Ecuador ... “He left Hong Kong with that document,” Mr. Assange said ...

so various people had been aware that Snowden could need special travel documents. Unfortunately for Mr Snowden, Ecuador disputed the validity of the “special refugee travel document,” that Assange had somehow obtained, and explicitly revoked it:

... Officials on Thursday acknowledged that the Ecuadorean Embassy in London had issued a June 22 letter of safe passage for Snowden that calls on other countries to allow him to travel to asylum in Ecuador. But Ecuador's secretary of political management, Betty Tola, said the letter was invalid because it was issued without the approval of the government ...

... In his Guardian interview, Correa said his government had not, and would not, give Snowden an authorised travel document to extract himself from Moscow airport ... He said the temporary travel document issued by his London consul on 22 June – and publicly disowned five days later – was issued without official authorisation ...

[Thinkingabout]

152. K & R

Snowden should have been properly advised when he departed the US his passport would be revoked if he was charged and a warrant issued for his arrest. Charges wasn't immediately brought and for other reasons may not have been in place when he departed Hong Kong. He needs to cry on his advisors shoulder.

[Sheepshank]

142. Your opinion on who is most reasonably be more likely to lie, false

n/t

[sabrina 1]

186. You mean the government has never lied to us?

That was funny!

[Sheepshank]

200. did I say that?

can you not figure out why your premise is patently made up and silly?

You are saying the Gov't lies more often than people....prove it

[msanthrope]

27. He's not charged with spying, so the federal prosecutor will have the fairly easy job

of using his collaboration with the FSB as circumstantial evidence of motive...juries always like a motive. The longer he stays in Russia, the easier the job becomes.

[1StrongBlackMan]

85. +1 n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

39. agree its possible...not going to say its true....but a definite possiblity...

this guy and his supposed background story simply don't make sense...

[msanthrope]

4. He's an idiot. And he's defensive. nt

[sabrina 1]

14. Actually he is far from 'an idiot' apparently he's quite brilliant according to people who

who actually know him. Maybe you can tell us why the US Government forced Snowden to stay in Russia?

[msanthrope]

18. Anybody with federal charges against them, talking to the press about what's in

the media is an idiot. DiFi provoked him into responding...which means he's easily provoked.

Sabrina...I don't answer your questions.

[sabrina 1]

52. Thanks for answering my question. He is absolutely correct to slap down the lies

and to expose them as quickly as possible. At this point he has way more credibility than those who decide to lie.

Only an idiot would remain silent when they are being lied about.

Whistle Blowers like Ellsberg were also 'ACCUSED felons', but see the SC ruling on that case.

Snowden being accused of felonies and lied about, only makes the US Government look like they are desperate to hide something.

Here's what they can do. ABIDE BY THE CONSTITUTION of the US and they won't have to worry about Whistle Blowers.

[randome]

54. Really? Obama is lied about every hour of every day.

The difference is President Obama has class and dignity and style.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[msanthrope]

57. No..I don't answer your questions. And the Supreme Court tossed charges against

Ellsburg because of FBI malfeasance...not because he was innocent. He would have gone to jail but for the FBI helping out an analyst from Rand.

[VanillaRhapsody]

40. forced? He chose it....

don't try to pin that on them.....HE alone made THAT decision..

[sabrina 1]

65. The US Government waited until he landed for a stopover in Russia and then took his passport

away making it impossible for him to leave. Odd isn't it, that if they thought he was a spy, they would force him to stay there?

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. So? Are you saying there aren't people like yourself that would "break the law"

to help their "hero"?

[Luminous Animal]

78. Perhaps you can offer up some viable plans that

have some chance of succeeding.

[VanillaRhapsody]

81. Like I said...

plenty of fugitives like Snowden remain undiscovered for years...sometimes forever. Ask them how they do it...

[Luminous Animal]

86. What does that have to do with his imaginary powerful connections

whisking him out of Russia?

[VanillaRhapsody]

90. did I say "powerful" I said others much like yourself that hero worship him...

How do other fugitives do it?

[Luminous Animal]

97. He's welcome to come live with my family but he would need

some powerful connections to get here. I don't know how other fugitives to it. I imagine they have a network of supporters prior to their actions. Mush like Ellsberg who went underground for a brief time.

Or they live in another country that won't send them back to the U.S. like canada did for draft evaders

[VanillaRhapsody]

101. No he wouldn't....do ALL fugitives have "powerful" connections?

I mean Glenn Greenwald and company would help him right? They have "powerful connections" right?

By the way...any American fugitive wanted for high crimes such as this....would lose their passport. Some of them manage to get away for long periods of time...

Seems to me Snowden wants to live a "cushy life" of a non-fugitive.

You might find some examples of fugitives that seem to be able to hide for long periods of time here:

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten

[randome]

99. Why did Wikileaks want nothing to do with him? (Except for Sarah Harrison.)

Why did Venezuela and Bolivia turn away?

You're right, he doesn't have powerful connections. Maybe there's a reason for that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[Luminous Animal]

113. They sent one of their key persons to assist him.

One of Assange's closest confidants.

[randome]

137. Who did nothing for him other than to pose for a photo-op.

Nothing that improved his situation, anyways. Why did all those other countries decide to turn him down? Most likely because he doesn't have anything beyond his super-earnestness. God, I do believe if Snowden laughed, the Sun would fall from the sky!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[struggle4progress]

76. "... Edward Snowden's passport was annulled before he left Hong Kong for Russia. Snowden's travel

plans could be complicated - but not thwarted - by a lack of passport. The U.S. official said that if a senior official in a country or airline ordered it, a country could overlook the withdrawn passport ..."
State Department has revoked Snowden's passport
5:42 PM, Jun 23, 2013
Greg Rossino

[SidDithers]

91. Well, there goes that talking point...nt

Sid

[struggle4progress]

96. Though debunked long ago, it will be repeated again and again into the future

[Luminous Animal]

104. And? Clearly, no senior official or airline is willing to ignore it.

Thus. In the meantime, he is where he is.

And if revoking a passport is so meaningless, why did the U.S. do it?

[struggle4progress]

114. sabrina claimed his passport was not revoked until he was in Russia: I pointed out

that her claim seems inaccurate.

You and I have already discussed effects of passport revocation. As I told you in #93

[link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024371359#post93|His connections were able to engineer his travel without passport from Hong Kong to Russia, his US passport having been revoked before his Aeroflot flight to Moscow

One difficulty for travelers without a passport is that carriers may refuse to transport the passenger, since they may be required to transport the passenger elsewhere if entry is denied at the destination. If Snowden had been taken by an airline somewhere and then denied entry, the airline would presumably have been in the awkward position of being responsible for a passenger from Hong Kong, whom they could not discharge and could not return to Hong Kong for discharge. But Aeroflot is only semi-private, with majority Russian state ownership. So Russian state willingness to accept Snowden without a passport could have made it easy to put him on the Aeroflot to Moscow

He would have had other options as well, had he been able to convince another government to issue him a travel document. In fact, such a travel document for Snowden at one point appeared from the now-famous Ecuadorian embassy in London -- though its provenance was subsequently loudly disputed by the Ecuadorian government, with the result that the document was useless to Snowden for travel purposes

I have nowhere described the revocation of Snowden's passport as "meaningless" -- in #62, I pointed out that the revocation was routine:

... His passport .. was .. revoked under the regulations 22 CFR 51.60, as the holder was "the subject of an outstanding Federal warrant of arrest for a felony" and was "the subject of a request for extradition or provisional request for extradition which has been presented to the government of a foreign country." It may further have been properly revoked on the grounds that the holder's "activities abroad are causing or are likely to cause serious damage to the national security or the foreign policy of the United States"

[Sheepshank]

145. Several people, including Sabrina tend to make stuff up on the fly

...makes for a good narrative, they think. Forget about damaged credibility.

[Bobbie Jo]

199. Nailed that one

Credibility issue, indeed.

[Number23]

148. Post of the freaking thread, right here

Last edited Wed Jan 22, 2014, 08:58 PM - Edit history (1)

I've been interested in all of this and even I didn't know that his passport was revoked BEFORE he went to Russia. Not that this will slow down any of the BS from the BSers, you know.

I don't know if he was an official spy for Russia or not but this adds one hell of a wrinkle and damages his contention that he was NOT a spy even further.

[Skraxx]

6. I dunno, seems reasonable to think he might be a spy

He stole sensitive government data and then defected to Russia. That certainly could be considered espionage.

[Luminous Animal]

9. You need to look up the meaning of "defected". It does not mean what you

think it means.

[stevenleser]

19. Except since you dont know what the true deal is or whats in his head, you have no support

for your position. You don't know that he hasn't in fact defected. None of us know either way. You choose not to believe that because you don't want to believe it, not because facts rule it out.

I find the Russian spy/defected arguments lacking in a number of ways, but we cannot rule them out either.

[Skraxx]

59. Looks like defection to me! YMMV

[sabrina 1]

15. The US Government FORCED Snowden to stay in Russia. So you might want to rethink

how reasonable it is now that you know that being in Russia was NOT Snowden's plan at all.

They took away his passport waiting until he was in Russia, on his elsewhere, to stop him from leaving.

[VanillaRhapsody]

41. where is this "forced" you keep bringing up...

he CHOSE Russia AFTER China said "hell no".

[Skraxx]

60. It wasn't his plan? Is that you Ed?

[sabrina 1]

69. No, it wasn't his plan at all. Surely you wouldn't be commenting on something you appear to not

have the facts on.

On his way to his final destination, with a stopover in Russia, the US Govt took away his passport, making it impossible for him to leave Russia.

No need to thank me. Facts are important.

[Skraxx]

92. Really? Not his plan at all? Cuz he said so?

Ok pal! Whatever you say!

[sabrina 1]

109. Uh, we have the record to rely on. You know, documentation, facts, proof. The world knows where

he was going and so did the US Government. So again, WHY did the US Government FORCE him to remain in Russia?

Now that you have the facts, perhaps you could try to answer that. A whole lot of other people are asking.

[Skraxx]

119. Sure you do! "The record", yeah, yeah, that's right. LOL!

Whatever you say, pal!

[sabrina 1]

123. No, I don't collect official records, but officials do. Understand what that means? It means

that there are official records of where Snowden was headed. Which WAS NOT RUSSIA!

Understand now? Documentation.

Here, let me give you a chance to PROVE, with documentation what you are attempting to claim.

Post proof that Snowden was headed for Russia.

This ought to be fun!

[Sheepshank]

203. See, this is exactly what you do....

make up shit, presume to present it as fact and never provide supporting documentation. This lie has been debunked with actual supporting documentation, will you retract your statments, delete them or offer a correction so as not to mislead your followers? Doubt it.

[Number23]

150. Make sure that you see Post #76 which CLEARLY states that his passport was revoked BEFORE he went

to Russia.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4372055

Kind of blows some of these meek and weak arguments out of the water.

[Skraxx]

159. Uh, so what?

What did he care if he was defecting already?

[Number23]

177. ???

You are arguing with people in this thread that have insisted that the only reason Snowden is in Russia is because that's where he was when his passport was revoked.

In fact, his passport was revoked before he'd even left Hong Kong which means that the "he's only in Russia by circumstance" crowd is wrong. Again. I showed you a post in the thread that clearly shows that the folks you are arguing with are wrong.

[davidn3600]

7. This government is more concerned about killing messengers than fixing problems

It's a consistent theme.

The war on whistleblowers needs to end.

[VanillaRhapsody]

42. I don't know of many "whistleblowers" that run away to China and Russia

do you?

[struggle4progress]

98. I must have missed some stories about the US government offing whistle-blowers

Surely you could provide a few links to enlighten us

[Luminous Animal]

116. You do know that "killing the messenger" is a figure of speech, right?

[struggle4progress]

138. It's hard to know what people might mean, what with Snowden claiming he's in fear

of his life and such

[bobduca]

184. of course that poster knows that.

intentional misreading ftw

[WillyT]

11. Hey Luminous !!! - Did You Cath THIS: LOL !!!

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024371476

[Puglover]

102. LOL love it.

"Useless political hacks" True of DI FI and many others.

Talk about stuck in the 80's.

[Progressive dog]

13. And we should believe an accused felon who fled

to avoid prosecution. The Nixon stuff is particularly relevant, especially since he is the only President to ever resign in disgrace.

[sabrina 1]

16. Why did the US Government force Snowden to remain in Russia which was merely a couple of hours

stopover for him? Why would they have wanted to make him stay there of all places?

[Progressive dog]

22. Are you suggesting that the US should not try to apprehend accused felons,

He can go anywhere he wants, just not on a US passport. He's the one who fled to communist China when he claims he really wanted to be in S. America.

[sabrina 1]

30. I was waiting for this talking point after I saw Feinstein and her Republican buddy 'wonder'

presenting not a shred of evidence, 'if' he 'might' be a Russian spy, also creating the impression, lie to be blunt, that he had 'fled' to 'COMMUNIST China' and Russia. Which is a lie. Thanks, I love it when I am proven to be right. See here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4368268

[Progressive dog]

36. He is an accused felon already,

and I don't believe he worked for the Russians until he got there with the data. Probably includes a lot of the same data that he thought was so horrible for the NSA to have.

[Luminous Animal]

45. By his account, he had no data to give when he got to Russia.

I he has, it is highly unlikely that he would be stuck in an airport for 5 weeks.

[randome]

51. Except for the PR meeting, no one saw him in the airport, did they?

So who knows where he really was?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[Luminous Animal]

55. Sarah Harrison was with him. So, yes their was a witness

[msanthrope]

73. Assange's laundress? Where, exactly does she think she's going to be a witness? nt

[Luminous Animal]

108. What a remarkable sexist comment.

[msanthrope]

125. Someone had to wash Julian's socks and keep his diary...which she bragged about....

Anyone visiting the court of Assange has to be approved by Sarah Harrison, a twentysomething recent graduate of City University whom Assange met two years ago. She is now one of his most trusted aides. When he first arrived in London, Harrison was said to be responsible for “organising his diary and washing his socks”, and some recent reports have called her Assange’s ex-girlfriend.

The 41-year-old Assange has been going out with Harrison “for a while”, according to someone who has seen them together. In an interview recently, he claimed that the “security considerations” in his embassy residence have caused “severe difficulties to a relationship that was important to me”, although he refused to be drawn on who the person was. Recently the blow-up bed he slept on in his Knightsbridge room has been replaced with a proper mattress.

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/the-court-of-king-julian-assanges-loyal-supporters-8205161.html

Sarah also lost the bail money she put up for her prince. Poor thing...Eddie might suit better.

[Progressive dog]

88. By his account-that says it all

It would be highly unlikely that he would flee to Hong Kong when he wanted to go to S. America, but he did (by his account).

[Luminous Animal]

94. How do you know that when he flew to Hong Kong

he had any intention of outing himself? Maybe he made that decision after he got there?

[Progressive dog]

100. That is so obvious that I'll let you think about it nt

[sabrina 1]

74. Ellsberg was an 'ACCUSED' felon. What is your point?

We know that the REAL FELONS like War Criminals and Wall St Criminals get off scott free in this country. So the word 'felon' has no meaning anymore.

The words Whistle Blower however have come to have huge meaning and majority support.

If you have some evidence that he is 'working for Russia' then present it. Otherwise you are spreading false rumors and nothing more.

[Progressive dog]

87. What part of Russia is Ellsberg living and

when did he flee to Hong Kong? The majority of Americans want Snowden to come home and face trial. Hey, he can sue me for expressing my opinion He has a lot of experience as a spy, he was at it a lot longer than he's been blowing whistles.

[sabrina 1]

106. Ellsberg fully supports Snowden and goes further, he calls him a hero.

Ellsberg among others know that in today's world, Whistle Blowers will have to leave this country in order to get the truth out.

Ellsberg didn't have to do that back then because we still had a semblance of the rule of law.

And Ellsberg among others, have stated that.

You can keep trying to claim that Snowden's destination was Russia or China, but the FACTS are always going to make that difficult for you. But knock yourself out.

[Progressive dog]

126. So Ellsberg did flee or not

I know where Ellsberg stands on Snowden. Why would Ellsberg's opinion count for more than most of the government's?
The "semblance of rule of law" crap is just that, crap. How many psychiatrist's offices and opposition headquarters has this president had broken into? How many people has the FBI sent letters to, encouraging them to commit suicide or else? How many enemies are on the list that the President has the IRS" investigating". How much money has this president illegally obtained to pay hush money?

[sabrina 1]

187. Ellsberg is trustworthy, he has not lied to the American people.

The US Government lied to the American about some of the MOST IMPORTANT issues that a Government can lie about.

Ellsberg exposed some of those lies. The Government ACCUSED HIM of being a liar and a felon.

Snowden has also exposed lies told by the Government. The Government has ACCUSED HIM of being a FELON.

See why Ellsberg is more trustworthy??

[Progressive dog]

197. So Ellsberg did flee or not,

that's a simple question.
When you won't answer a simple question, you can't expect me to trust Snowden because Ellsberg is trustworthy because you say so.
That's quite a leap of faith, you expect, when I have yet to see you post anything other than repetitive generalities.

Ellsberg not only did not flee to escape prosecution, he allowed the documents he released to speak for themselves. He gave the papers to a real reporter at a real newspaper in USA. There are other differences between what Snowden and Ellsberg did, but I won't waste my time since facts seem to have no affect on your faith based reasoning.

[Luminous Animal]

50. He didn't flee to China. He stayed in a very nice hotel in HONG KONG.

You should educate yourself about the difference between the two.

[struggle4progress]

79. "Hong Kong .. is one of the .. Special Administrative Regions of the People's Republic of China"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong

[Luminous Animal]

83. Wow! You shore is a smart guy.

[struggle4progress]

95. The bottom line is that Hong Kong is part of China, the transfer from the UK to China having

been originally agreed upon about thirty years ago

[Luminous Animal]

103. And both of us know that the relationship between the two

and their governance is far more complex than your pithy wiki citation.

[struggle4progress]

122. I was once challenged by a drunk in a bar to see which of us could actually pee onto the ceiling

I suspect my decision, to decline the challenge, might have somewhat reduced his esteem for me

[msanthrope]

84. Ahem...a very big event happened in 1997.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_sovereignty_over_Hong_Kong

Aren't you a teacher???

[Luminous Animal]

89. No. I am not a teacher. I've told you before

I am a professional bovine artificial insemination technician.

And my profession has nothing to do with the FACT that Hong Kong is not communist China. I grasp the arrangement between the two. Apparently, you do not.

[arely staircase]

173. ok brief ceasefire to ask

Do you really do that for a living? And if you mock me for being gullible I will claim diminished capacity based on Texas legal alcohol limits for driving. (I am at home and not driving btw)

[Luminous Animal]

178. Nah. But I'm not a teacher, either. I'm a bean counter.

[arely staircase]

180. too bad

Back to arguing then.

[Luminous Animal]

193. Too bad for whom? I am an extraordinary bean counter that

gives her services to small start up businesses that emphasizes an open book cooperative model.

I am extremely proud of the work that I do and have shaped multiple businesses away from top down model.

It is not as sexy as steer insemination for sure.

[Progressive dog]

140. Hong Kong is in China, are you saying it is not?

I'll bet other parts of China have very nice hotels, too.

[VanillaRhapsody]

43. Force? He ASKED to stay there.....

THAT is all on his own...

[Luminous Animal]

47. Because he can't travel without a passport.

[VanillaRhapsody]

49. Sure he can...he has LOTS of connections right? YOU would help him wouldn't you?

[Luminous Animal]

56. Yes I would if I could.

I am curious. What kind of connections do you think he has that are powerful enough to go up against the U.S. government?

[VanillaRhapsody]

66. so he is not "stuck" is he? The big "hero" SHOULD be able to go anywhere he wants...

we are talking about connections to get whisked out of a country if he wanted to be....he is where he is because he chose to be there...and chooses to stay.

[Luminous Animal]

71. I'll ask again. What connections does he have that are powerful

enough to go up against the U.S. government that would be able to safely whisk him away.

Name one.

[VanillaRhapsody]

72. You think that never happens? Seriously?

[VanillaRhapsody]

75. and no one said he had to "go against the U.S. govt"

to be whisked away....to a secret undisclosed location....

It took us years to find Osama Bin Laden

[struggle4progress]

93. His connections were able to engineer his travel without passport from Hong Kong to Russia,

his US passport having been revoked before his Aeroflot flight to Moscow

One difficulty for travelers without a passport is that carriers may refuse to transport the passenger, since they may be required to transport the passenger elsewhere if entry is denied at the destination. If Snowden had been taken by an airline somewhere and then denied entry, the airline would presumably have been in the awkward position of being responsible for a passenger from Hong Kong, whom they could not discharge and could not return to Hong Kong for discharge.
But Aeroflot is only semi-private, with majority Russian state ownership. So Russian state willingness to accept Snowden without a passport could have made it easy to put him on the Aeroflot to Moscow

He would have had other options as well, had he been able to convince another government to issue him a travel document. In fact, such a travel document for Snowden at one point appeared from the now-famous Ecuadorian embassy in London -- though its provenance was subsequently loudly disputed by the Ecuadorian government, with the result that the document was useless to Snowden for travel purposes

[flamingdem]

112. I hear Putin picked him up at the airport!

[msanthrope]

115. He traveled from Hong Kong to Moscow without a valid passport. nt

[Luminous Animal]

121. Because Hong Kong permitted him to leave.

Maybe his "laundress" can find another airline that will allow him safe passage without one.

[msanthrope]

127. Well...that was rather a stupid risk for him, then? As for Ms. Harrison, who knows if she's

decided to wash socks for Eddie, but she certainly bragged about doing it for Assange.

[Luminous Animal]

135. Thank you for ejumacating me that the mere act of

washing someone's socks transforms a women into a laundress

[msanthrope]

136. It is she who chose to present herself in this manner. It is not how you or I might

choose to introduce ourselves to the world, but you shouldn't judge her.

[struggle4progress]

134. The travel issue would not have been whether Hong Kong would let him leave but whether Aeroflot

would allow him onto their flight

[arely staircase]

174. yes he can

He can get on a plane to New York right now.

[SidDithers]

17. Which is exactly what you'd expect a Russian spy to say...

Hmmm.

Sid

[msanthrope]

21. Big meanie Obama is forcing Snowden to stay in Russia! Although I bet the US Embassy

would help Eddie home.

[SidDithers]

23. Yup. Maybe one of the silliest talking points to emerge yet...

Sid

[msanthrope]

29. Look...Snowden would be sipping mojitos in warm, sunny Cuba or hangin' with Glenn

in Rio if it weren't for Obama!!!!

It's Obama's fault Eddie had to buy a parka, damn it!!!!

[SidDithers]

31. It's a balmy 3 degrees F in Moscow right now...

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/27612.html

Quito is 65F
Caracas is 86F
Havana is 72F

Eddie needed a better travel agent.

Sid

[msanthrope]

34. I have experienced a Russian winter...and since Eddie cannot drink,

he is denied one of the primary coping mechanisms for getting through it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4015636

[flamingdem]

111. Putin doesn't mind the cold

[stevenleser]

172. ROFLMAO. That is great!!!

[flamingdem]

183. .

[VanillaRhapsody]

44. agreed...What do they expect for this...ticker tape parade?

this "forced" is ridiculous....he was trying to broker asylum all over the world.

[stevenleser]

24. It's possible, but I don't think FSB/SVR/GRU operates this way.

They would simply have him vanish from the map and quiet him away to an out of the way place in Russia. There would have been no sensationalized leak, or temporary stay in Hong Kong etc., if he was a Russian spy, IMHO.

[SidDithers]

25. Yeah. My tongue was firmly in my cheek when making that post...

But it's fun to watch the denials.

Sid

[sabrina 1]

32. Thanks for proving me right:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4368268

[SidDithers]

33. Keep trying, sabrina...

Sid

[msanthrope]

35. It's blue links...we've finally converted her. nt

[sabrina 1]

63. You can count on it Sid!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. It's exactly what you'd expect a couple of politicians on the payroll to say.

[Luminous Animal]

64. Or a communist infiltrator like MLK…

For his part, King adamantly denied having any connections to communism, stating in a 1965 Playboy interview that "there are as many Communists in this freedom movement as there are Eskimos in Florida".[209] He argued that Hoover was "following the path of appeasement of political powers in the South" and that his concern for communist infiltration of the civil rights movement was meant to "aid and abet the salacious claims of southern racists and the extreme right-wing elements".[196] Hoover did not believe King's pledge of innocence and replied by saying that King was "the most notorious liar in the country".[210] After King gave his "I Have A Dream" speech during the March on Washington on August 28, 1963, the FBI described King as "the most dangerous and effective Negro leader in the country".[202] It alleged that he was "knowingly, willingly and regularly cooperating with and taking guidance from communists".[211]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr

[SidDithers]

77. LOL! Snowden is just like MLK!!...

And I thought he was Paul Revere, with his thumb drive full of the news that tyranny is coming.

Personally, I've always considered him to be a combination of Jesus, Gandhi and Johnny Cash.

Sid

[Luminous Animal]

80. Never said it and I don't claim it. But don't let that stop you.

It is quite amusing.

[arely staircase]

132. awe geez the thumbdrive of liberty

Wonder what name that one is operating under these days.

[flamingdem]

185. Oh the memories, the thumbdrive!

LOL, what was her name?

[randome]

188. USGovtOwesUsThreeTrillion. It's all about the money, you know!

You can buy a lot of thumb-drives with that kind of moolah!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[arely staircase]

189. yeah I got libertarian debt smell off the Name

What was the three trillion you reckon? Cost of Iraq? Had to be something the y thought was clever.

[randome]

191. Postage stamps. The U.S. government owes us three trillion postage stamps.

It's a hidden diss against the postal service.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

105. I can't believe they're still using the old 'right wing' commie garbage. It means nothing to

today's generation. They need some new talking points, the ancient ones aren't working anymore.

[Electric Monk]

130. And if he weighs the same as a duck, he's made of wood, and therefore...

[Xolodno]

20. Unlikely...and I have to agree, it is absurd.

If he was spying for Russia, he would still be here and still spying for them. They would have encouraged and supported him to stay and pump for info until he got caught. Not have him fly to Hong Kong and go public.

[VanillaRhapsody]

46. not absurd...but a distinct possibility....I don't necessarily believe it...

but its hardly absurd...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. So, what's done more harm to America? Snowden's whistle blowing or the NSA?

By that measure, the NSA should be seeking asylum in Russia or, preferably, Antarctica.

[VanillaRhapsody]

48. but they aren't are they?

weaklings run away...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. You mean like the weakling draft resistors that fled to Canada?

Perhaps, the Real Men at NSA aren't fleeing because they aren't being pursued.

[VanillaRhapsody]

68. No I mean like weakling wannabe's

Oh by the way...I have twin Uncles who served in Viet Nam...one tried to run to Canada first...

who do you think deserves more respect?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

117. The ones who fled and refused to kill people for politicians.

What's a "wannabe" weakling?

[VanillaRhapsody]

128. He's a wannabe hero....

but heroes don't run in the face of danger...Heroes have the courage of their convictions...

see Muhammed Ali for an example.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

131. Obviously, we have different definitions of what constitutes "weakness" and "courage".

Or, at least, convictions.

[VanillaRhapsody]

196. "courage of your convictions"

is a very old phrase...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

195. Are you 12 years old? Is your world populated with action figures?

What's this talk of heroes and crushes on faceless NSA agents? You're posting as though we're arguing about 2-dimensional comic book people and which of them should be wearing the white cowboy hat. You're helping to bring the discourse here to a low and ridiculous place. And is doesn't even begin to cover your viciousness and duplicitousness in the 500-post rape thread from earlier today. What, specifically, gives?

[struggle4progress]

58. Well, let's examine just one of the claims made by Rogers: in his recent Meet the Press

appearance, Mike Rogers suggested Snowden "was ready to go, he had a go bag, if you will”

In fact, Snowden himself has just confirmed this suggestion, by Rogers on Meet the Press, that he kept a packed go-bag, in an interview with Jane Mayer published in the New Yorker yesterday: Mayer quotes Snowden as saying he had kept a "go-bag packed" since 2007

In the Mayer interview, Snowden further explains that the packed "go-bag" is common for people living undercover. But here he may simply be standing in a hole, digging himself in deeper. According to a timeline published in the Washington Post, Snowden himself claims he was posted by the CIA to Geneva in 2007 but left the CIA in 2009 to work for a private NSA contractor in Japan. An August 2013 Reuters report by Mark Hosenball indicates Snowden worked for Dell from 2009 until early 2013

So from 2009 on, Snowden apparently was not living undercover on government orders. And it's not immediately clear why a civilian contractor would consider himself to be living undercover and would therefore keep a "packed go-bag." There are, however, indications suggesting interpretations unfavorable to Snowden. In an October 2013 New York Times article, Eric Schmidt reported that Snowden's CIA supervisor send Snowden home from Geneva, in part due to suspicions "that Mr. Snowden was trying to break into classified computer files to which he was not authorized to have access". Moreover, there seems to be reason to believe that "Snowden began downloading documents describing the U.S. government's electronic spying programs while he was working for Dell ... and left an electronic footprint indicating when he accessed the documents". In June 2013, the South China Morning Post published an interview in which Snowden himself stated that “My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked”:

... Asked if he specifically went to Booz Allen Hamilton to gather evidence of surveillance, he replied: “Correct on Booz.” His intention was to collect information about the NSA hacking into “the whole world” ... The documents he divulged to the Post were obtained during his tenure at Booz Allen Hamilton in April, he said ...

These facts might provide a rather different view of the "packed go-bag" Snowden now admits having:

Snowden had been hoping since his days in Geneva to access classified files without authorization, and by 2012 he had succeeded doing so at Dell. In 2013, he moved to a Booz Allen Hamilton facility in Hawaii, with the intent of stealing files regarding NSA activities worldwide; while there (according to a November 2013 report by Mark Hosenball and Warren Strobel) Snowden obtained access when he "persuaded 20 to 25 co-workers at the NSA regional operations center in Hawaii to give him their user names and passwords by telling them they were needed for him to do his job as a computer systems administrator"

The natural take on Snowden's "packed go-bag" is that he wanted to be ready to skedaddle

[randome]

61. Oh, come on. Who doesn't keep a series of 'Go' bags handy?

I, myself, have one for the zombie apocalypse. One for Tea Party insurrections. One for alien invasions.

And one in case my ex-wife develops super-powers.

You can never be too prepared!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[flamingdem]

107. I check the Zombie report every morning

right after the weather! Got to know if I need a parka in my Go bag!1?11

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

120. It seems pretty sensible if you expect your government to pursue you.

Doesn't it?

[struggle4progress]

129. It might indeed seem natural under those circumstances: I bet Butch Cassidy kept a go-bag packed!

So if you've been dropped from CIA employment due to suspicions you're attempting unauthorized access to classified files, then taken up a job with an NSA contractor where you are accessing classified files without authorization, and then switch to another NSA contractor position with the aim of collecting classified info on NSA activities worldwide and ask coworkers for their passwords to facilitate your hobby, then having a packed go-bag could fit tidily into the mens rea

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

133. Which, obviously, means that Snowden is no fool in the face of the regime's attitude towards whistle

blowers.

[arely staircase]

143. regime

Lol

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

144. re·gime noun \rā-ˈzhēm, ri- also ri-ˈjēm\ : a form of government : a particular government

[Luminous Animal]

149. Marching towards idiocracy in front of our very eyes.

[arely staircase]

154. you got that right nt

[arely staircase]

153. lol

a system or planned way of doing things, esp. one imposed from above.

Because you totally meant any benign or even democratic form of government in no way implying that Obama is a tyrant imposing his will from above on poor Mr. Snowden. You just meant generic form of government.

lol

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

163. Pursuing whistle blowers is hardley "benign".

I suppose the benign Mr. Obama is doing so to congratulate Mr. Snowden on his determination to fight the fascism of the NSA.

[arely staircase]

166. regime AND fascism

So are you outright saying the Obama Administration is a fascist regime? Are you willing to own that? Or are you just mentioning two things together without explicitly saying they are connected and hoping people will make the connection on their own? see Iraq-9/11.

again, lol

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

169. Do you not consider pursuing whistleblowers fasicistic?

Democratic? Benign? Altruistic? Humorous? Unavoidable?

Is not our government a regime?

Maybe you better check with your war criminal icon.

[arely staircase]

171. maybe I don't agree with your premises

ever thought I might not have a world view in which Obama is a sweeter talking Dick Cheney?

[msanthrope]

168. When someone doesn't use the whistleblower statutes, they aren't a whistleblower.

The fact is, you make choices when you work for the federal government.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

170. Gosh. You mean he wasn't "just following orders" like a good...patriot?

Do you consider Daniel Ellsberg a whistle blower? Daniel Elsberg considers Edward Snowden a whistle blower and a patriot.

[msanthrope]

175. See...here's the great thing about whistleblower statutes...if you follow them, you

actually have done your sworn duty and exposed wrongdoing to people who can do something about it.

I consider Bunnatine Greenhouse a patriot. And she has the settlement to prove it.

[Number23]

179. + a MILLION on Bunny Greenhouse. How very interesting that hardly anyone here ever talks about her

[msanthrope]

181. Well, she's a Black, female soldier who did her duty. She refused to go on the firebagger

pseudo-lecture circuit and she won't trash-talk the President. So of course she isn't talked about. She did more to stand up to Bush than any of the 101st Chairborne here.

[Luminous Animal]

205. And the whistleblower center that her lawyer founded and presides as president

issued a statement that Snowden should not be prosecuted.

National Whistleblower Center Issues Statement in Support of NSA Whistleblower

“Edward Snowden should not be prosecuted. Instead, the White House must keep the promise made by President Obama, during his 2008 election campaign, when he pledged to support legislation that would fully protect all government whistleblowers, including those in sensitive national security positions.”



“Until Congress enacts a law, setting forth reasonable procedures by which civil servants can disclose national security violations to the American people, the government should not prosecute these whistleblowers. Congress and the President must do their jobs, and stop destroying the lives of civil servants who try to report misconduct”

http://www.whistleblowers.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1442

[msanthrope]

206. I respect Mr. Kohn, but I think calling Linda Tripp a "whistleblower" stretches credibility. I note

that Mr. Snowden has not made his list of "whistleblowers," and I suspect that is because Mr. Snowden is still a fugitive.

But you could not have pointed out that Mr. Snowden needs to face the music and join that pantheon any more clearly....thank you.

[frylock]

139. and don't forget about those packed go-boxes that he had ready in his garage

[struggle4progress]

141. That doesn't seem a cogent response in anything in this thread

[frylock]

162. yeah, no shit?

did you catch the post I replied to? oh, wait......

[struggle4progress]

164. My #58 discussed a point in a paragraph appearing in the OP and provided multiple links

[treestar]

190. Notice he thought he was important enough for a packed-go bag"

He may have heard of that and added that to his props to his "adventure hero" persona.

[randome]

192. When you land on a blue square, you get another Go Bag! What fun!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[struggle4progress]

194. ... With every move he makes, another chance he takes.

Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow.
System Administration Man!
System Administration Man!
They've given you their passwords and taken away your passport! ...

[randome]

201. I love that song!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[Cali_Democrat]

70. Dayum this thread is a fun read

Thanks Luminous!

[flamingdem]

110. Giddy up?

Also enjoying this blast from the recent past.

[Cali_Democrat]

124. Stop it!

[HipChick]

147. Aww....BFF...

[HipChick]

146. So he was a Russian Spy after all?

I knew it!.. Putin BFF....

[Number23]

151. I have to agree. This is my favorite thread of the month so far.

Good, clean, family fun.

[great white snark]

158. LOL.

It's like you're being told that it's an altruistic espionage thriller while you're watching a Cheech & Chong movie.

[Number23]

176. LOL!! Exactly!!

You nailed it

[LittleBlue]

82. He did a great service for this country

Thank you, Mr Snowden.

[woo me with science]

156. [phone]

Thank you, Edward Snowden.

[woo me with science]

155. K&R. Note the obligatory propaganda swarm.

The relentlessness of the propaganda brigade in smearing Edward Snowden in every single thread where he is mentioned continues to show the level of fear his revelations have created among the PTB. When exposing a crime is treated as committing a crime, then you are ruled by criminals.

The existence, ugliness, and dishonest relentlessness of the propaganda machine at this point serves only to reveal how deeply corrupt, creepy, and authoritarian this government and its messaging have become.

[Egnever]

157. ...

its always a conspiracy...

[bobduca]

182. everyone of those creeps

on full ignore.

[Sheepshank]

204. "The relentlessness of the propaganda brigade"

did you by chance count the number of times the falsehood of when Snowden's passport was revoked, was promulgated by the pro-Snowden crowd? Talk about propaganda. And not one word of a correction or retraction of the lie.

[RC]

161. Personally, I think anyone slandering Edward Snowden is defending the lawlessness of the NSA.

I can see no other actual reason to do so. And on a supposedly progressive/Liberal web site, no less.
The information Snowden exposed is destroying the credibility of the US government around the world. Even more so than our terrorist policies involving drones on wedding parties and funerals, in countries we are not at war with.

[Wilms]

198. ^

[Thinkingabout]

202. Absurd to think the US should grant clemency to Snowden, his crime is not one to

excuse. Also his past background says this was not about telling American Citizens NSA was collecting data, we already knew this information, his as a past activist is to disrupt and cause problems. He has played right into the hands of our enemies, I do not feel sorry for his problems today. Let Russia keep him, he will not live through this crap in Russia.