General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs Amazon horribly evil?
I like to read, hell I love it. I listen to audiobooks while I'm driving. I read every day, if only for a few fleeting minutes when indisposed, or about to sleep.
What I am grateful to Amazon for is exposure to many authors that would never have had a chance if it was not for the Kindle, and the e-book revolution.
Three examples come to mind. All are self published. Both are series that I am reading, and finding entertaining, and reasonably well grounded in science fact, while being science fiction. I am sticking with the science fiction based books for a reason.
The first is Ryk Brown. http://www.amazon.com/Ryk-Brown/e/B00727LG8Y/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1389369045&sr=8-2-ent
He is working on book eleven of his Frontiers Saga. It is highly unlikely that absent the ability to self publish that these books would have ever been printed. So who do we blame? The limited capacity at small neighborhood bookstores? I got this as a suggestion from Amazon, I get dozens of suggestions whenever I do buy a book. I buy about one out of fifty or a hundred.
The second is Cindy Swanson. I'm on her Saving Mars series. Again, unlikely I would have gotten into one book if it hadn't been for Amazon, and is she a horrible person for using what is available to express her creativity? Good series, good characters, I really can't complain.
Final example, Elle Casey's series Apocalypsis. http://www.amazon.com/Elle-Casey/e/B006SUPLO6/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1
I wasn't too thrilled with the last book, but it did close out the series, and I wasn't the author, just a reader. But again, would I have found this series of books without the e-book revolution, what was a fringe thing became mainstream because of Amazon, let's be honest and admit that if nothing else.
So is it evil for Amazon to offer aspiring authors the chance to write, publish, and perhaps succeed in their desired fields? There are books on Amazon that would never get published by the corporate world, political books out the wazoo. Radical RW Tripe, extreme CT nonsense, Enlightened tomes, LW lunacy. It's all there, waiting to be discovered, waiting to inspire, offend, annoy, and even disgust.
My local library isn't bad, they have tens thousand books, and access if I order it from another branch to tens of thousands more. But they are limited just like a book store. They're limited to what is published by corporate censors.
Amazon may not treat their workers as well as many of us would like, granted. But I can find a lot of business's both small local and big box that commit that offense. A locally owned family run gas station closed because a local chain opened across the street. The old family owned was by comparison dark, dingy, outdated, and while it was fine standing on its own, once the chain opened across the street, it appeared almost disreputable by comparison.
The local chain is brightly lit by LED light fixtures, painted in bright and inviting colors. Offers more than two types of coffee, has a good selection of products and very competitive prices for gas. Do I blame the local chain for being successful? I'm sure that they started out as a single store, and then continued expanding and trying new things to increase customer loyalty and attract those customers. Do I say that it's a shame that someone else ran the older family owned out of business? I call it a local chain because they have about twenty stores locally, and none outside this part of the state. In another twenty years, these things are liable to be nationwide. When do I stop going there? When the chain leaves the state am I to decide that it's a big business and I should avoid them? How about when it crosses two state line? Am I to denounce them as an evil corporation when it is in three states? I'm curious, because I really don't understand. When does my patronage at a local group of stores become support for corporate America?
Because my love of reading has me discovering several new authors, and buying books from them, supporting the small writer though the evil corporations. I'm not sure where my support for self publishing independent authors like Ryk Brown crosses the line to being a fool who supports an evil organization. Can any of you enlighten me?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)people, Amazon is the Devil's spawn.
Which is OK for them.
I wouldn't begrudge anyone for thinking that way.
What I do begrudge is anyone thinking that way trying to shame others into thinking the same thing.
Blaming people who can't afford to pay extra to local businesses for wanting the best deals they can find.
I have a suggestion for anyone wanting to shame others for buying from Amazon...send me the extra money I would need to buy from a local business.
Come pick me up and drive me the 20+ miles each way to stores that aren't local.
Then, if/when what I buy doesn't work, or it breaks, come pick me up, drive my ass to the store so I can return it, then drive my ass back home again.
What's that? No takers?
OK then. Those people need to mind their own business and stop shaming others.
LuvNewcastle
(16,834 posts)There's nowhere local that sells what I read. There are only a few bookstores within 50 miles of me, and none of them have any diversity except the Barnes & Noble in the next town over, and shopping at B&N is no better than shopping at Amazon. I would have to go 80 miles to New Orleans to find what I like, and then I'd have to dig around for the right place, and then I'd pay out the ass for the privilege of shopping there. Fuck that. Amazon always has what I want and they charge a fair price, so anybody who doesn't like it can suck eggs.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Kindle...
I love having hundreds...no, a thousand or more...books at my fingertips anytime, anywhere.
And through places like BookBub and Pixel of Ink, I can often find books for free, or at vastly reduced prices.
Awesome!
LuvNewcastle
(16,834 posts)but the new Kindles are just so much better and easier to read, plus they have internet access. My computer is on it's last leg and a Kindle would suit my purposes just fine. All I do on the internet is surf and occasionally buy things, so I don't need a computer anymore. I can't wait until I've saved up enough for a new Kindle.
Sgent
(5,857 posts)kindle -- don't get a color one.
Color kindles still use LCD / LED technology, rather than e-ink. If your primary reason for owning the device is reading (vs textbooks or children's books with illustrations), you get a MUCH better experience with the e-ink devices.
LuvNewcastle
(16,834 posts)for me to read without plenty of light. I'd like to have something with an inner light source so I won't need to have a bright lamp beside me while I'm reading. I like to keep the lighting rather dim in my house, so I don't like to have a lamp with a strong bulb beside me while I'm sitting down. Also, some of the stuff I read have graphics (sometimes I read graphic novels, too) so I don't think the black and white will do it for me anymore. I wish there was a store near me where I could compare them before I order one, but none of the ones around here carry many e-readers. I guess I could always return it to Amazon if I think it won't suit me.
Sgent
(5,857 posts)(which is what I have) provides light using a "ring" around the screen with LED reflective lighting. Reflective light (vs backlight created by an LCD screen) is much easier on the eyes and doesn't mess with your sleep cycle. I would try it first assuming the graphic novel issue isn't paramount. I have an ipad as well, and the difference for pleasure reading is huge -- plus the black and white readers have a battery time measured in weeks rather than hours.
Bettie
(16,072 posts)I use my Fire for more graphically intensive books, but my Paperwhite is, my husband tells me, an extension of my arm. I have it with me all the time.
I love being able to discover new authors that would never be carried in a regular book store.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Kindle was the black and white kind
Then I got the Kindle Fire for some of the features, like Internet access, color, touch screen, and such
What I do with the backlighting is turn it up during the day and then dim it when I'm reading in bed. I also changed the page color so instead of black letters on white background, I have white letters on a black background
My one and only beef with the Fire is that I have to charge it more often than my old one
But I love that I can watch movies on it, so it all sort of evens out in the end
LuvNewcastle
(16,834 posts)I think that's just what I need. I'm planning to use it for surfing and reading and just putting my computer away most of the time. I think it sounds perfect for me.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)It does one thing only and does it extremely well.
PasadenaTrudy
(3,998 posts)I even got Donna Tartt's The Goldfinch for $2.99 on special!
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)is a long drive away, but our rural village has no library either. Libraries in the nearest towns require residency in those towns to get a card. My Kindle takes me to many digital libraries and I love having that access.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Historic NY
(37,449 posts)is that they provide the opportunity for small business's to connect with customers also. They provided for a reasonable fee a portal for e-commerce via their website.
http://webstore.amazon.com/power-of-amazon-complete-eCommerce-solution/b/6254197011
LuvNewcastle
(16,834 posts)dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)I believe in boycotts, where and when feasible I DO boycotts.
But not everyone has the practical option of avoiding the not so politically correct businesses.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I see no inconsistency in condemning a company for, for example, bad labor practices, while also lauding it for giving independent authors a new platform to publish.
Even Wal-mart (boo hiss) is taking positive steps in using renewable energy.
It wastes a lot of energy, and badly misses the point, to simply assign a "good" or "bad" label to whatever or whomever and dismiss everything else.
So ... Kindle Publishing good. Brutal warehouse working conditions bad.
We can make qualitative distinctions that go beyond just cheerleading or condemning things.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)obviously.
Amazon deserves condemnation for their labor practices. They could be leaders in how to do it right. Instead, greed rules.
Sorry, your argument is so missing the point.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I said there is no inconsistency in condemning bad labor practices while lauding independent publishing.
Do you have an argument as to what I actually said?
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)I do think inhumane labor practices trump Amazon's positives re publishing. The people who benefit from Amazon should be the ones who put pressure on Amazon to improve their practices. (eg Nike) Otherwise nothing changes. Your attitude leads to the rationale that the positives neutralize the negatives and it's fine if we get good stuff along with the bad. But some things are so bad they cannot be defended that in that equivocating way.
It is hard to support a business that exploits and abuses its workers, no matter what else it does that's a plus. So I think your statement is inconsistent. Is BP a good company because it supplies cheap gas at the expense of the Gulf of Mexico? Is a tyrannical abusive husband or father acceptable because he pays for your food or buys you jewelry?
It's one company. Amazon has to own this.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)You said Amazon should be condemned for its labor practices. So did I. Apparently you meant to say that Amazon is therefore simply an "evil" company, which is the point the OP raised.
I disagree with that and agree with the OP.
Is Obama a bad President because drone strikes murder civilians?
Is Apple a bad company because they exploit Chinese labor?
We are capable of criticizing bad practices while supporting good ones.
There is a point, yes, where bad acts become the defining characteristic of a person or a corporation. (Insert Hitler reference here).
But entirely condemning a company like Amazon that does a lot of things right over labor practices in its warehouses is a useless position. It would be hard to find a major corporation that doesn't need to clean up its act regarding how labor is treated, and it falsely pretends that the company doesn't do other things (like the self-publishing platform described in the OP) well.
It is not inconsistent to protest the bad and recognize the good.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)We condone a lot in this country in the name of "business." Re your examples, I would separate business from government.
Obama is caught in a bad system, not of his own invention. In a sick system that gave us the Bushites, he does the best he can. He's not a bad president but he's not able to be what he wants to be--under the circumstances.
Apple is more autonomous and therefore their practices are more egregious. They have the choice not to exploit Chinese labor. So Apple is not a good company, not one you feel you can positively support. (And yes I have a Mac, which sets up cognitive dissonance--at least I can diss the company in hopes of change).
Amazon has choices. Their success rests on the backs of those they exploit to an unacceptable degree. Therefore Amazon is not a good company. They may do some things "right" in terms of services to their customers, but they are an ethically-challenged, greed driven, corporate behemoth. Although I'd like to, I can't support Amazon. They are not a forward-thinking company, not an example of what we really need in America. Same old, same old. Yawn.
Now if Amazon would act more like Costco....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/reasons-love-costco_n_4275774.html
http://www.costco.com/benefits.html
--------------
Amazon has chosen the wrong road and they need to be called on it. Who better to criticize them than their customers? Criticism needs to be serious, not "oh well, others need to clean up their act too" kind of equivocating.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)They provide a valuable service and I couldntblive with our my kindle fire
Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #3)
Name removed Message auto-removed
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)attempt it without knowing that self-publishing on Kindle was available.
One "author" I've read is so bad at writing you are compelled to shake your head and I actually gave up trying to read it. Then the author followed me on Twitter and I had the chance to query him - while being complementary of course. Found that despite his bad writing, the proceeds from his sales is enough that he is no longer working a regular job.
I should do well if his success is any indication because I sure as heck write/edit better than he does.
MADem
(135,425 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)it sure as shit is.
Look, I love my kindle, but I hate what Amazon represents.
You should buy an artisanal locally sourced e-reader to show your disdain for corporate America.
distantearlywarning
(4,475 posts)It's the only way to be sure that you're being the best human being you can be
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Trekologer
(996 posts)Without that, you don't have hipster cred.
Buns_of_Fire
(17,156 posts)For that, if nothing else, it's a godsend for those of us who live in the boonies and semi-boonies. Yes, I usually try to find it locally first. And no, I don't care for the conditions their warehouse workers toil under.
But the fact is, I'm not going to make the 80-mile round trip to Bristol for something that I can order for $25 from Amazon, and then just drive a half-mile or so to the local post office to pick up in a few days. If that makes me a bad person, so be it.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Except their catalog isn't useful for the same purposes in the outhouse.
Buns_of_Fire
(17,156 posts)No industrial-grade butt-wipers, though. They haven't yet expanded into channeling political contributions.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)There is a whole host of things going on with what Amazon provides that Sears and Wards couldn't touch. For starters, every registered Amazon user is presented with their own unique customized catalogue tailored to their interests.
They can just click on the item and buy.
They can track shipment of their item.
And they can store their own website on Amazon's cloud service, etc. etc.
In essence, there is no comparison. But yes, the rough analogy is there.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)showing a little something extra in the underwear section.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)What a silly notion.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Next!
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Barnes & Noble lost me as a customer when they charged $30 for a brand new book that cost $16 on Amazon. Additionally having obscure tastes in movies and books, often only Amazon has what I need.
I've unloaded trucks in a warehouse, where temperatures in the trucks probably reached between 110-120 degrees. Warehouse work is hard and it isn't always possible to air condition such a building
mike_c
(36,269 posts)I don't have many choices, frankly, I live on California's rural North Coast and I'm an eclectic, and avid, reader. Looking to my right, there are currently nine books in various stages of review on my bed table. There are another seven in the bathroom. Six on my desk. They range from textbooks, to novels, to professional journals, to technical guides and other non-fiction. I order five or six books a week from Amazon, usually. No television here!
There are no brick and mortar bookstores within six hours of my home that can support my reading needs. There are a couple of small retail bookstores locally, of course, and conceivably they might order books for me, but I'd likely need to use Amazon to locate titles and they'd more than likely order them from Amazon and then mark them up for me. I don't mind the markup so much as the inefficiency and delay. With Amazon Prime I can order most books online and receive them in two days. If anyone wants to open a book warehouse in my town that will support my reading, I'll be happy to give them as much of my business as possible, but until then, Amazon gets the job done.
I've also ordered tools, electronics, and so on from Amazon, all for the same reason. I can locate them, spec them, and order them quickly and easily. Again, if there was a comparable walkin service available here, I'd love to use it, but there isn't. And there isn't ever likely to be, simply because there's nothing to attract a retailer of that scale to my small rural community.
I'm also a labor activist, and I'm not happy with reports of Amazon's treatment of fulfillment center workers. Still, if I want to read as widely as I do, it's pretty much Amazon or nothing. The local library is not a good substitute.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)On balance however, I think Amazon does and has done far more damage than good.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)I just love that series. Can't wait for the next one. I am an unabashed Space Opera fan. I liked the Honor Harrington series. Too bad Weber went "'round the bend" a while back. Can't stand to read him anymore.
I do the vast majority of my shopping on Amazon. Am I supporting an evil corporation? I think it is relative.
distantearlywarning
(4,475 posts)The example that comes instantly to mind is the guy who published the Wool sci-fi series. I stumbled across him via an Amazon rec, and ended up buying all his books.
elfin
(6,262 posts)Kindle! Prime! Alpha House on their video!
Two day free shipping on Prime! Able to shop at all hours! Gas savings!
Products that are hard to find locally!
Still shop locally for any item that I know is in stock and nearby or that MAY have to be returned in order to talk to a real clerk.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)that benefited me personally quite a bit.
He may not have treated Iraqi civilians as well as many of us would like, granted.
But is it really evil for someone to make a change that gives extra benefits to teachers?
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)But to each their own. I shop at Amazon a lot and find it super convenient. I really dislike going to stores, except Target I'll shop there (and my grocery store). I need to buy sneakers and will have to go to a store and I'm ready dreading it.
At the same time I don't shop at Walmart, and I don't judge those that do.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)...but hey, as long as you get your shit easy & cheap...who cares, right?
Fuck the worker as long as I'm better served...God Bless America!!!
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)How are the Amazon warehouses significantly worse than the warehouses that service local stores? Are you suggesting that Ace Hardware warehouses are superior for the worker? Because I've worked at four warehouses and delivered/picked up from a couple hundred and they're all pretty similar. Big space, not airconditioned, usually not heated, noisy, and often filled with fumes from propane fueled forklifts. If they are temprature controlled its because the products need it, not the workers.
Yes I've been to union warehouses. Yes they are very similar.
Worst loading dock I was at was in San Diego. They didn't have forklifts, they hired day labor and had them sweat it out. You couldn't get me to bet that those were anything but undocumented workers. I talked to the foreman, he said they were cheaper than a forklift. I was dropping 40k pounds of plywood there. Every single sheet was unloaded by hand.
BTW I've been doing this kind of work off and on my whole life. My first job after school was delivering car parts for a Chevy dealer in Southern California. I've been coast to coast and border to border plus Canada. I've seen good, and bad, and everything in between.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)I pointed out up thread, anybody who has a real problem with those of us who buy from Amazon is welcome to be our personal shoppers. Or cart us around so we can buy only from "approved" merchants
AND
Said persons are also welcome to pay the overage costs between the prices on Amazon and the prices elsewhere
Real easy to criticize when one isn't walking in another person's shoes, isn't it...
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)are in the best position to criticize Amazon. Otherwise, you are just saying "screw the workers--I got mine."
I don't think anybody is criticizing anyone for taking advantage of the convenience of Amazon.
But it comes at a cost. There is no reason why Amazon cannot improve the conditions for employees and still keep prices down. None at all.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)congrats
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)nolabear
(41,932 posts)than if I had gone the long, slow, complicated traditional route. They're a dream to deal with for someone like me.
I'm also an ideal customer for them. I use them for a whole lot, and am delighted to have access to so much. I love local stores and shop local, but if I can't get it, in two days I can have it through them.
I'm also a pragmatist. Half the stuff we own, not the least of which are the computers we're tying on, are produced in ways we would think is barbaric. Do I work for betterment of those conditions? I do. Do I buy from people without deeply researching their practices? I do.
And if anyone is curious about the book, PM me.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)By favoring the small bookseller, we are supporting local business, and also supporting corporations. Worse, we are supporting corporate censorship.
How many publishers were there before the self publishing revolution for writers? Perhaps there were six, or ten publishing houses. The result was a finite number of books, from an even smaller group of authors. Those books were rejected or chosen based upon the whim of the publishing corporations. Let's not forget that Rush Limbaugh got two books published during this era of small local book stores that were both on the NY Times bestsellers. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/20/1271086/-Why-I-m-Grateful-for-Rush-Limbaugh That isn't admiration, that is admission of the fact by the way. (I have to point that kind of thing out since I am regularly referred to and defending myself against charges of being a troll etc.)
Now, how many authors were given rejection letters while Limbaugh was given signing bonus checks? How many ideals died in the dustbins around the world because Limbaugh had the printing presses running flat out for his drivel?
By favoring a return to the availability of books only through the small town book stores, aren't we really advocating a return to the six or ten companies that would censor ideals and creativity through the selection criteria they regularly used? Also, many books, my own pathetic attempt included, are for sale for a mere $0.99 at Amazon. Yes, there are literally hundreds of thousands of books available for about a buck which is pathetically cheap. As a youth, I remember thinking that books on sale for six bucks was a great bargain, and spending twenty bucks or more for a hardcover edition. Those six dollar books may have been better edited, and yes I could use an editor, or perhaps an editrix to whip my books into shape. But were they superior entertainment or information? I don't really think so with a few notable exceptions.
Let's pretend that this e-reader revolution never happened. Most publishing companies had stopped accepting manuscripts cold shopped. So now you have to send your work to various agents in an effort to get signed, so the agent can then shop your manuscript around to those same corporate publishers, if you get signed by the agent, and then you had to be able to be pictured on the back of your book, so Isis help you if you were less than picturesque, because that would harm your sales outlook. Now, if you met the criteria, then you had to go city to city, doing book signings, and every morning show across the nation, trying to generate interest in your book. After six months, or a year, your book was taken off the shelves of that small town book store, sent back to the publisher, and you dropped off the face of the earth.
I'm not sure we want a return to that environment, at least not as an author, or a reader.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)Jenoch
(7,720 posts)It is worse than Walmart, it actually closed more bookstores than Walmart.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)Ice cream, bars, restaurants and doughnut shops will be the only ones left. Eating while watching dozens of Amazon drones soaring over head.
piratefish08
(3,133 posts)received it Tuesday morning even though Monday was Martin Luther King day.
I'm a believer.
.... but I'm not really sure it's a bad thing. We'll probably always have boutique shops selling very specialized merchandise, but frankly, I don't want to have to go to five places to get the items I need. That's a waste of time and gas. And other than the local butcher shop, I can't remember the last time I went to locally owned retail store. It's always some big box monstrosity filled with substandard crap that doesn't really have the features I want, and then I have to wait in line behind unpleasant people in order to actually buy it. And it's not like the employees of those places are getting treated so well. I think replacing those big boxes with fulfillment centers makes sense for a huge variety of items.
Warpy
(111,141 posts)They need to realize that allowing these martinets and petty tyrants free rein is costing them millions in turnover and training costs for new hires who burn out quickly and don't stick around long.
They're bleeding money because of the piss poor way their warehouses are run and seem completely oblivious to it.
Otherwise, they're great. I'm staying away from their stock until they catch a clue, though.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)First, the stock prices. http://investing.money.msn.com/investments/charts?symbol=US:AMZN#{"zRange":"6","startDate":"2013-1-22","endDate":"2014-1-21","chartStyle":"mountain","chartCursor":"1","scaleType":"0","yaxisAlign":"right","mode":"pan"}
Look at the five year history, steadily going up. The argument isn't that they're "Bleeding money" it's that they're not paying their workers well enough for the work. http://ycharts.com/companies/AMZN/gross_profit_margin
More than 20% profit is why their stock is doing so well, because the investors know that the company is profitable, and is going to remain so as long as the workers are getting screwed. Again, it's not that they're "Bleeding money" it's that they're not paying enough, or that they're refusing to pay the money.
That profit margin is going to keep going down as more states arrange for Amazon to pay State sales tax, which Georgia did this last year as an example. Some argue that is a good thing as it puts Amazon on a more equal footing with the brick and mortar stores, but that's a lie. Amazon doesn't have property tax, income tax in the state, and a lot of other overhead that the brick and mortar does.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)I collect ancient Roman coins, the kind that you can buy for about two bucks apiece in lots of about ten or so, and clean the ancient crud off of them yourself. You need all kinds of information to be able to attribute them, that is, tell who the ruler is, the approximate date minted, etc. Yes, there's stuff on the Internet, but the best books are still in dead-tree form.
On a recent trip to the Pacific Northwest, I finally paid a visit to Powell's City of Books. This is an enormous bookstore, with new and old books for sale, it's famous in the region. I figured I'd have a shot at finding what I needed there, but alas, there were only two shelves on the entire subject of coin collecting, and only ONE book on Roman coins. Internet searches turn up dozens of these things on every book website, and if you check enough of them with the book's ISBN number, you can find some great differences in prices. For example, I just picked up a book on Contantinian-era bronze coins (the most likely to be in my eBay lots), various websites had it new or nearly new for $250-300, but enough diligent searching turned up a copy I could get delivered for just under $60. Even if Powell's had had that book, it would have been at the frightfully expensive price, as that's what most of the market seems to want for it.
I left that store convinced that retail as we know it was going the way of the buggy whip.