Where are all the Apple haters now??? Mike Daisey admits to being in theater not journalism. He took

[Pisces]

shortcuts and used dramatic license. Hmmmm. This American Life canceled the show because it could not verify the facts.

I am sure not all is great in China at any of the factories, but I think many were ecstatic that it was Apple.

I hear crickets.

[roguevalley]

1. there are independent reports about their manufacturing processes so yeah, I still 'hate'

apple. Fuck them. There is a guy with a one man show on Broadway that documented this and emailed Jobs regularly about what he saw. He told jobs that there were kids as young as 12 working like slaves behind the fences over 100 hours a week. He got back a one line email from that fucker: "I work long hours too." yeah, I still hate apple.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I hope you include Microsoft.

As I keep reminding people, same exact factory at the Xenzen Province.

Big picture, we must support Chinese labor organizers...yes they exist and did you know organizing a Union is against the law? One way to do that is to insist on tariffs that punish our transnationals, not just Apple, for doing business in a place that des not meet the bare minimum of international labor standards.

Other big picture, we must work to force corporations to home home. No, it's not just American Jobs, at this point it's even a national security matter.

But big picture, hating one company and not buying product from them ain't gonna help, unless that is, the last system and printer you bought is at least fifteen years old.

[roguevalley]

36. I include them all, Nadin. None of them are there for good reasons. I hope to god that

unions get a comeback everywhere.

[targetpractice]

39. The guy you are referring to IS Mike Daisey...

He admitted he was lying... His one-man-show is fiction, not journalism. He never spoke with a single underage employee.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/460/retraction

[kestrel91316]

2. I have no idea what you are even talking about. You and the dozen or so others who

have made this same exact type of cryptic anti-Apple post the past couple of days.

Context??

I have a PC and assume this has something to do with Apple computers??

[oberliner]

34. Mike Daisey wrote a theatre piece about Steve Jobs

Turns out it wasn't entirely accurate.

[adigal]

75. It wasn't false either - he reported incidents from other reports

The issue is that he reported them as being seen personally. Apple does work their employees many hours without paying them OT. They have poisoned employees in China. They have marched them into the factory in the middle of the night to make more I-Pads. The facts have not changed, and people are using this guy's dishonesty to try to whitewash all of the abuses of Apple.

[Rex]

3. What did Apple do now?

No idea who Mike Daisey is.

[kestrel91316]

4. Yeah, I have no idea what the Apple and Daisey ranting is about.

[Rex]

6. Sometimes cults are hard to understand.

They just assume that everyone else in the world knows what they are talking about.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. Hopefully the OP recorded the sermon to which he's reacting. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Dasey had a story on this American life

That painted work conditions at Foxxcon as beyond the pale. NPR tried to vet the story and could not. They retracted the full story.

For the record Foxxcon is a horrible place to work, they forbid any union organizing, against Chinese law, and produce on the same floor microsoft's xbox 360.

There are reasons not to like their practices, and actually the cheap labor for a slew of corps must outweigh the copyright infringement that regularly happens there. For a good example of this google apad, and look at a few images. No, any similarities with the iPad are not purely coincidental. Did I mention the Apads, running android, launched a day after the iPad I?

But looking at this as a cult does not help. We have systemic problems with our corporations that have mostly given up on the us and the us workforce, until our labor becomes cheaper than Chinese or Bangladeshi labor I suspect. Then they'll come back, not a dime earlier. And it is high time people look beyond a "cult."

[Rex]

48. It is a 'cult of personality' issue.

Apple is not the only company that have people that lie for them daily. But having a cult following makes the situation worse imo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. So does Microsoft

Here you don't get to see it...go to gaming forums. The Xbox -Sony Playstation is just as fierce.

It is not apple...it is stock and parcel of consumerist culture.

Many users of insert bauble here see such baubles beyond what saith bauble does. Why they line at doors when bauble one s replaced by bauble two.

Funny story. I got an iPad, which from time to time s indispensable since fr whatever reason I can't type. Mine is a numer one. It does all I need it to do. I had kid, who just got a II going over th great things number three was expected to do...so you say, it's an IPad. I have had the Sa exact experience about the Sony Playstation. We are what fou gerations behind? Will replace it, just like this, when it fails from old age.

But I am strange. I buy my toys to fit my needs, not for coolness factor.

[Rex]

54. Absolutely correct.

Microsoft has some of the worst cult of persona followers I've ever seen...even worse then Mac addicts. I've worked on both systems (Mac & PC) for years and years so I really don't believe one is better then the other. Just don't see it. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I own an iPhone (had the iPad 1) currently and make white box ibm-pcs. Have two currently that I use. I buy what I need for work and for my own personal business. That included both OSs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Exactly

One point for Mac is ease of use and so far no problems with viruses...why it will be ideal for my mom...I woud recommend iPad but she likes to have somebody else put photos in drive. I got my MacBook at the height of vista's foolishness.

We have an xp box hubby uses for gaming, where the Mac lacks, du to lack of games.

Buy what you need, not what makes you look cool.

[Rex]

57. I have my post powerful system

inside an ancient ATX case. Nobody would steal it unless they turn it around and see ports on the back!

[Maraya1969]

53. It is about the factories over in China where people

are committing suicide at mass rates and losing the use of their hands and limbs because they are being forced to work long hours on Apple products without help to prevent carpel tunnel syndrome. Basically it is horrible work conditions and everyone was signing petitions but now that the new I pad has come out everyone seems to have forgotten about it.

I haven't. Then again I wouldn't buy one anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Just don't buy any product that is electronic

Where do you think Microsoft and dell produce stuff, as well as HP.

What is happening over there is systemic. You want to support their labor? A boycott of one of the many companies won't do it. Enforcement, through tariffs, of international treaties will be more effective. For that you need both Congress and the POTUS (and a slew of other nation states) to get on board.

Now if it maes ou feel better, by all means do not buy apple, but for god sakes at least be consistent and get off that computer. Chances are components were made over there.

[Pholus]

60. Then don't BUY. Remember that Apple advertising encourages massive waste.

Take advantage of it.

Somehow there is a notion out there that you can't be appalled by this and STILL have a computer. Welcome to the real world. My solution even prevents pollution (every pc-sized computer item creates of TON of toxic tailings), doesn't cause even more money to go to China and the multinationals and I still have electronics.

I personally have paid almost nothing (like $50) for the computers I've used for almost nine years now. All I do is wait for the latest and greatest to come out with all the advertising and hype and then take discards from people who were foolish enough to upgrade their still servicible items.

If I actually liked i-crap I could have had a real cheap iPad 2 last weekend because my local Apple cultist just HAS to have an iPad 3. Honestly, I don't see a lot of difference but YMMV of course -- I've just never had golden eye/ear pretensions. I told a different friend about that one, hopefully doing my bit to prevent yet another new Apple sale.

So one can function within the system while not supporting it. You just have to think through your options.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. How exactly does an IPad with an aluminum case

Produce more waste than an Xbox with an aluminum case?

Should I remind you that apple actually encourages it's users to recycle and are considered the greenest of electronics? No not their press, it just is.

They have a lot of very questionable practices, as in very questionable, but until you realize how systemic to transnationals this is, and not company specific, the rest will continue to imitate Appe in it's worst practices. Go ahead and hide from that fact.

It reminds me of a conversation while in Mexico regarding the banks...we hate the bankers, but by all means kid getting a summer paid internship and getting paid 30k for six weeks is by no means a real symptom of what is wrong. Nor is kid having a five number salary job already lined up.

From a PR perspective Apple would have been better without releasing a lot of these reports from it's own supply chain. Think about this for a second, a lot of what we know about working conditions in china came from internal Apple memos that were released to the NYT investigative team for example.

Apple management is torn. Some say they can't do a thing, others say they can. They are having the debate, unlike oh Ikea, which also moved production. Soon everything will mostly be produced there.

But go ahead, hate a single company. I am sure you not buying Apple products will make the point. After all you are central to their success.

(Why we need to pressure Congress to force changes in TRADE POLICIES)

[Pholus]

78. "Greenest electronics" is a marketing line.

Reading their terms I can see their recycling is intended to make another sale. Hell, I'd be green if it meant you'd buy more too so please don't pretend it's a virtue of some kind.

The problem is people recycling functional items to get "4 TIMES THE PIXELS!!!!" Are you not aware that this happens?

Honestly, the reason continue to apply the name Apple to what "everybody does" is because it gets REALLY strong reactions from people, yourself included which is strange because I normally associate you with being more level-headed. It's like I've pricked at something really personal -- a side effect of feel good marketing is what I figure.

Apple is an industry leader. If they don't change, nobody will. It's nice to hear how they're trying. It just says the pressure is being aimed appropriately. So don't expect me to stop.

You are right about trade policies, but if I can't change things with a single company what hope do I have to elicit change from their employees in congress?

Finally, I can imagine MANY progressive policies that would elicit similar "who cares about what you think/do" lines from TPTB. I guess we all need to realize that we're not immune from that particular form of arrogance when it comes to our pet "products and/or events" (to quote Krusty the Clown).

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. If you want to continue this line your prerrogative

While you hate one company, (and not bother to look into the technology behind things like screens) you continue to miss the big picture. It is not Appe that is the problem... IT S THE INDUSTRY APPLE HAPPENS TO BE A PART OFF THAT S THE PROBLEM. IT IS CONSUMERISM THAT IS THE PROBLEM IT IS THE ECONOMIC AND CURRENT GLOBAL ORGANIZATION OF LABOR THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Now keep thinking t's just Apple. Unless your computer is fifteen years or older, guess what, you are using a Xenzhen province produced good. Your car, the car computer CPU came from there. Your fridge, same story...ditto for your TV. Did I mention your printer? How about your microwave? Shoud I go on?

Feel superior all you want, you are missing the BIG PICTURE. Ain't that lovely?

And tell me what incentive does Appe and the rest have to change? They will, when that is created, and that would be by LEGISLATION.

I am amazed how hard headed people can be in their ability to see the big picture. Part of it is LEGISLATION and changing at that level the conditions that encourage this current order.

Now go on, continue to hate and miss the big picture.

[Pholus]

81. I get the impression you're more worried about "Apple hate" than the problem.

Screens are the point, nadin, because it illustrates the hype which increases sales.
You don't need it, but you want it. The effective goal of ANY advertising -- get a
sale based on want, not need. Something that Apple is *very* good at doing.
You are usually sharper than this.

Now over the last two months I've gotten very interested in this topic.
This is pretty much the first time I've seen you weigh in, and it seems to be without
any sense of the history. I'd suggest you read up for next time.
It's all been done and it isn't worth repeating. But I will give you a few highlights.

For example, the "all your stuff was made in China so it excuses Apple" argument
was made by one Apple Cultist to such a strange extreme but was demolished
more than a month ago. I'd suggest you look it up. The short of it is that my
underwear is made in Pakistan but I looked just for you. At its core, it is
merely a pathetic dodge that claims that nobody needs accept culpability nor
can anyone point out the problem because "we're all guilty." Pure BS.

The "why poor Apple when everybody does it" question was adequately
answered by the history of the boycotts of Nike over its sweatshops.
People don't seem to understand the need for action when it comes to
concepts, but when given a name they get the point. That media lesson
has been around lately, perhaps you've seen it? Course the main proponent was
walking around naked in San Diego recently but hey his point was sound...

The "effectiveness of legislation" was AMPLY answered by the various trips taken
by congressmen back in the 90's as they went to the Marianas to play golf
on a corporate funded fact finding trip, errr, I mean to inspect improving
labor conditions at the sweatshops. It wasn't "LEGISLATION"
that got any action, it was BOYCOTT and worries about REPUTATION. You know,
market pressure. Apple, or at least its vocal consumers, are VERY worried about their
megacorporation's image. They respond pretty actively and that makes
this the best button to press to effect change. Legislation had its chance
and it had the RESPONSIBILITY but it failed. It failed on South Africa as well.
I would have expected you to be familiar with both, but apparently not.

The sociopathic behavior of Apple executives is on display in several threads, one
trying to blame their addiction to "cheap labor" on an unmotivated, unskilled US
workforce and another showing just how much Steve Jobs actually cares about
seeing his country of origin improve. He had no desire to donate to society
"like a liberal" (pretty much exact quote, btw) but sees his only contribution
as "making products you want to buy." I'm still trying to work out how that's
any different than Chevron or BP or Halliburton for example,
but supposedly according to his disciples there is some enlightenment in there.
Some megacorporations are more equal than others and all that. Look,
I remember that even Henry Ford had the PR skills to add that
his duties included paying his employees enough so they could afford his product.
Seriously, you should read up a bit more -- you've missed a fine old discussion.

The sociopathic behavior of Apple cultists are also amply displayed in these
previous threads as sycophantic posts bragging about Apple sales and profits
are myriad. Something is just not right about that much cheerleading, especially
on this site but I think it's just the result of consumer psyops. What I see is
the realization of an old tech joke from the '90s that started -- the only thing
worse than Bill Gates winning was Steve Jobs winning... Apple is ACTUALLY ENGAGING
in market behaviors that only the most insanely paranoid ever ascribed to the "evil
empire" back durings its heydey. It sucks to actually see these things happen but
it does make it clear that while the Evil Empire is dying, it's successor is moving
along quite nicely with an active cheerleader squad here.

I know the hype is supposed to make you believe that Apple is the little, smart guy
in the technology field but you can't simultaneously believe that and brag about
sales and profits and market dominance. As the tech field goes, it is driven by APPLE
and a handful of other companies who will change course to follow the industry
leader. My target is well selected and your "strategy" is naive and already behind
the times.

So, please don't lecture me on who is missing the "BIG PICTURE." You have
no sense of the history here of the discussion apparently, and you have brought
no new ideas.

Including your high dudgeon that someone dare place Apple's name on this mess.
A sidebar here: I've noticed that the cries of "hate" are like low fuel indicator
light coming on in the car. You're out of
arguments at this point, but something inside you is angry, simply angry, that
sometime dares associate Apple by name with this problem. It is a common usage,
derived from "haters gotta hate." I have repeatedly articulated the reasons for
my "hate" above. The usual reply? Silence or accusations of being a "hater." Pardon
me if I am not impressed by your adoption of the words of the others who have went
away without making a valid counterargument. It says our exchange is probably at
and end even as it just got started.

And why can't I shake the impression that despite your impassioned words, it's really just
the association of Apple by name with the problems that has you angry.

Have you been watching too much advertising lately?

Do you like your new little i-Product?

[Major Hogwash]

82. "The sociopathic behavior of Apple cultists . . ."

Great, customers buy some products and someone whips out their broad brush and calls them ALL sociopathic cultists.

And then some people wonder why Democrats lose elections.

[Pholus]

90. Are *you* posting about profits for every company you buy stuff from?

If not, it wasn't about you. There are Apple customers and Apple Cultists. The latter are few and far between but are relatively annoying nevertheless.

[TroglodyteScholar]

94. Interesting interpretation...

Where, precisely, do you see that claim made (that ALL Apple customers are cultists)?

Does look a lot like a nerve was touched, though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Go on, continue to broad brush

And miss the big picture.

One last thing, you say legislation has nothing to do with this? Go on and let every company know, that they are wasting their money on an army of lawyers and lobbyists.

[Pholus]

91. I notice you have no comments about the specifics. Big picture indeed...

That's okay, I didn't expect any. The "big picture" is unchanged from the 90's. Change does not come from legislation BECAUSE of the army of lawyers and lobbyists paid to ensure against such an event. It has came from the spectre of lost sales and damaged reputation.

It's okay. You can respond with a dismissive "with all these sales, who cares what YOU think." I pretty much expect it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. I did before

But all you got is nonsense.

Those of us paying attention realize this is systemic. I want to deal with this, at the only level a corporation gets it, with legislation to stop some of the nonsense and yes, tariffs.

You keep thinking not buying baubles from company a willl change behavior on the whole system.

Have a good hate filled day.

[Pholus]

98. So you got nuttin then....

Let's see those legislatative initiatives roll! Who is sponsoring them?

Oh yeah......NOBODY!

Which of course was my entire point -- I will speak loudly and slowly for
you.

IT.....IS.....NOT......GONNA....HAPPEN.....IN......CONGRESS

Even my one-person boycott you had so much fun deriding with your
cute little tag has a bigger impact than your awesome
fictional legislative plan. One of us at least is taking an action rather
than waiting to be bailed out by some feel good legislation we've
invented in our heads to be advanced by people who don't exist.

It's ironic that the most significant thing you said was to call me a hater
again. Too bad you're so out of ideas.

[Iggo]

5. Mike who?

[Cali_Democrat]

7. I'm lost as well

Definitely one of the stranger OP's I've read on DU.

[oberliner]

35. He wrote a play about Steve Jobs

It painted him and Apple in a not-so-flattering light.

It now turns out he fabricated parts of it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Journalism is theater, always has been

The concept of an unbiased journalist faithfully reporting the news is a fantasy and has never existed.

[shcrane71]

20. So true.

Every Journalism 101 student should learn that objectivity is subjective. Impossible for it not to be.

[think]

9. Foxconn still sucks and Apple is just one of the many corporations

willing to use communist China to exploit labor as a commodity.

[KG]

11. china is not now nor has ever been 'communist'

[sharp_stick]

12. Oooh an Apple thread

requires the obligatory response Not because of manufacturing process or made up stories by an asshole journalist but just because.

[shcrane71]

13. Oh good, someone is finally standing up for the lil' guy.

Poor Apple has been victimized long enough. If you could make $400 profit margin per phone, you'd use Foxconn labor too. Labor that sleeps in company-provided dormitories so that the workers will never be far from their beloved bosses. If Americans had any ingenuity, we'd use dormitory labor too. But, American workers want to impose socialistic ideas like profit-sharing...communist.

No hate here. I love me my Apple products. My stuff makes my life worth living.

[think]

14. Thankfully the company already provides a safety net for its workers:

[shcrane71]

17. Now that's an efficient safety net.

Someone obviously did a cost/benefit analysis.

[Aerows]

15. It's crappy to mischaracterize a company

That said, I still think Apple products are overpriced, restrictive and generally offer nothing that the competition does not.

To each his own. I love my Android phone, but if you love your iPhone, I'm thrilled for you, too

[KG]

16. Apple stuff is still made in a hellish sweat shops alongside all the other electronic crap

[shcrane71]

18. The reason that Apple is targeted with these exposés isn't

because people just HATE Apple products. It's because they're an industry leader. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'm willing to bet that other electronic makers aren't making near the profit per unit produced. If Apple would insist on better wages and working conditions for workers, then others might follow suit.

[Pisces]

22. I can bet that the majority of items made in China wether they be electronics or toys have poor

work environments and have underage workers. This problem is endemic to China and any other third world country we
ship manufacturing for cheap products. The outrage towards Apple is ridiculous, because we should be outraged by all of factories.
But we certainly can't boycott everything, so let's just pick a product we don't like or because we don't like the cult following.

Team Coke or Team Pepsi is the mentality. But the root of the problem still exists and is overlooked.

[think]

30. Both Pepsi and Coke suck but only Coke has a history of killing union workers:

Coke's Abuses in Colombia: Replay of the '70s & '80s
~snip~
Coca-Cola, which is virulently anti-union, claims that any allegations that its bottlers in Colombia are involved in the systematic intimidation, kidnapping, torture, and murder of union leaders are false. Yet the company has fought every effort to have an independent investigation into these allegations while at the same time has misled the public and its own shareholders with a long string of lies and bogus investigations.
~snip~

source:
http://killercoke.org/crimes_colombia.php

As for Apple they are by far making the largest profits so right or wrong they are getting singled out for criticism. It makes them no better or worse than the other companies who benefit from this exploitation. However, when you are the top dog there will come certain obligations. That's just the name of the game.

[Pisces]

33. True, but the top dog is the consumer that wants cheap products. Most of our things come from China

because we do not want to pay the higher prices.

[girl gone mad]

38. Apple products are not cheap.

They're outrageously overpriced. Apple does not pass along the savings they've gained from using cheap, expendable labor. Apple doesn't even pass those savings on to investors. Apple simply lines its own pockets with the money made exploiting Eastern workers and ripping off Western consumers.

[shcrane71]

41. Doesn't Apple have more money than most countries? nt

[Pisces]

43. I don't feel ripped off. I have a great computer that is easy to use and has never had a virus.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Actually it would run sixty extra on the top end

To produce the IPhone in the us with is wage scales

There are two reasons (main mind you, there are others) it is not done here

1.- Supply chain...Shenzen is structured in such a way that if I need to change screws in six hours, the screw factory, literally down the road will do it. If I run out of screws, I can also get them in ten minutes flat. The whole city reminds me of an 18th century manufactorium. In other words, not relying on suppliers in another state. So we would have to build a place like that to replicate that.

2.- We lack the capacity, by design mind you, to do this. It will byte us in the ass if we ever go to actual war, but hey short term it works for a few...ain't globalization great?

[shcrane71]

37. If industry leaders, like Apple, would insist on better pay scales

for production workers, that would help correct the exploitative environment. Somebody has to step up to the plate. The corporation that is making $400 off of each phone it sells is in a better position to pay its workers more than the corporation making $200 per unit.

I suppose we'll never have business leaders like Henry Ford again. That is leaders who believed in paying their workers a living wage that would enable them to purchase their products.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Here is the problem

Corporations will NOT do it. In fact, apple is the worst in this regard. Not by much, mind you...right on it's heels are ypte Microsoft and Dells of the world.

What we need are tariffs. We need to enforce, at the international level treaties, that require minimum standards of labor. Yes, they are in treaties, where we can pay lip service to them.

It is time to look away from the companies and pressure congress. You do business in a country that violates minimum labor standards regularly, such as long days, no ventilation, and no union organizing, you get hit at the border with punitive tariffs, while we also tell the host government clean up your act.

Even our worst right to work-for less state, has better protections than the best Chinese or Bangladeshi or Indian factory. This is globalization at play. We saw the leading edge of this with the bad boy of the 1980s in the Phillipines, that be Intel. There are reasons Intel moved it's factories to China as well. Yup, the Phillipines started enforcing labor laws, no, not kidding.

And as far as electronics is concerned, there are national security reasons those plants shoud be moved to the US as well.

[bowens43]

19. everything he mentioned has been widely documented elsewhere

Yes apple sucks and they treat their employs like disposable pieces of garbage
No crickets just the crying of children forced to work for apple


Another reason to hate apple they hate Freedom and free software. Corporate giants bent on ripping the people

[Aerows]

26. Another reason to hate apple they hate Freedom and free software.

My main reason for not buying Apple. They are firmly entrenched against open source.

[former9thward]

31. That is not true.

The producers of American Life found that he had lied and they could not independently verify the 'facts' so they pulled the program. No one is 'forced' to work for Apple. You are just making up things but the I Live to Hate Apple crowd finds no problem in doing that.

[Pholus]

32. I'll admit you WON if you can find Mike Daisey's name in this article...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?pagewanted=all

Too bad, so sad. One dramatized account inappropriately presented as factual doesn't change the core situation.

And Hobson's choices are everywhere. No one is 'forced' to work for Apple. I'm sure they have lots of other choices, right? Cheap labor jokes are so Wall Street. Please try some new humor.

[A HERETIC I AM]

45. They did NOT "pull the program". It aired in early January and today they offered a "retraction".

I listened to the entire hour today. Nothing was pulled.

[former9thward]

46. They pulled the 'facts' that were aired on the January program.

Of course maybe the version you heard confirmed them.

[A HERETIC I AM]

47. I listened to the entire program today!

What they did was offer a retraction, a Mea Culpa, if you will, and they took the entire hour to do it.

When you use the term "Pulled the facts" I think that is misleading. The show aired. They retracted it. They admitted they were wrong to air it.

[Pholus]

50. Perhaps a list of retracted facts might get your point across more effectively.

Then again, probably not. What I took away is that Daisey used things that were documented and then falsely claimed he witnessed them firsthand, inventing interactions along the way.

So, fire away. I'll even start the list for you.

1) The "Armed" guards. As was pointed out by the NPR reporter, only police and army are armed as would be expected from any cheap labor country. Of course, foxconn has guards, it is just that they do not carry guns.

Fill in the rest of them for me please. Which other "facts" are pulled?

[former9thward]

51. Sure

BTW regards to guards Daisey must have never been to a factory in the U.S. if he thinks armed guards are a big deal. I worked at a steel mill in Chicago and they had plenty of armed security. Not unusual at all.

From http://www.edrants.com/mike-daisey-lies-on-this-american-life-theaters-wont-cancel-performances-or-issue-refunds/

Daisey claimed that he met with workers “at coffeehouses and different Starbucks in Guangzhou.” Schmitz pointed out that it was unlikely that factory workers who made fifteen to twenty dollars a day would sip coffee at Starbucks. Because Starbucks is pricier in China than in the United States.

Daisey claimed that he talked to hundreds of workers. Cathy Lee said that it was 50 workers on the outside.

Daisey claimed that he posed as a businessman to get inside Foxconn’s factories. In fact, Daisey’s appointments were all set up in advance.

Daisey claimed that he visited ten factories Cathy Lee told This American Life it was only three.

While Apple’s own audits have revealed some underage workers (a total of 91 workers among hundreds of thousands in 2010), Cathy Lee revealed that Daisey had not met any underage workers during his trip. “Maybe we met a girl who looked like she was thirteen years old, like that one. She looks really young,” said Cathy Lee. “I think if she said she was thirteen or twelve, then I would be surprised. I would be very surprised. And I would remember for sure. But there is no such thing.” In the ten years that Cathy Lee has visited factories in Shenzhen, she’s hardly seen any underage workers.

Daisey claimed to meet twenty-five to thirty workers from an unauthorized union in an all-day meeting. The meeting did happen. But it was two to three workers, and the meeting was only for a few hours, over lunch at a restaurant.

Cathy Lee has doubts about the government-issued blacklist of people who the companies weren’t allowed to hire. While she remembers the blacklist, she says that it didn’t have an official government stamp, which any government-issued document would have.

Daisey claimed that he encountered people who had been poisoned by n-hexane, with their hands shaking uncontrollably. But Cathy Lee told Rob Schmitz that she and Daisey hadn’t met anybody poisoned by hexane. The story came from news in 2010, but the hexane poisoning occurred in a Wintek family in Suzhou, nearly a thousand miles away from Shenzhen.

Daisey describes an old man who got his hand twisted in a metal press and who has never seen an iPad turned on. In Daisey’s monologue, the old man says, “It’s a kind of magic,” when the iPad’s screen is turned on. Cathy Lee said that this never happened. “It’s just like a movie scenery,” she said on the program. She did say she remembered the guy, but that he never worked at Foxconn.

The taxi ride on the exit ramp that ended in thin air 85 feet from the ground? Cathy Lee said that it did not happen.

Cathy Lee said that she and Daisey never saw any factory dorm rooms.

Daisey claimed that it would not work if he talked with Foxcon workers at the gate. But Cathy Lee has been taking workers to the factory gates for years.

[Pholus]

58. Thanks, you just made my point for me.

Daisey lied about his personal interactions with these conditions. You listed all the things Daisey said that were lies, and every single one of them in the end was about Mike Daisey and Mike Daisey alone. No substantial allegations about the working conditions were discredited. It doesn't factually change a single argument about this we've had on DU -- the facts are the facts whether Mike Daisey saw them or not.

Despite Apple Cultists claiming and burning for this to be some complete exoneration of their favorite multinational corporation, the "cheap labor" abuses happened and are well documented by MANY non-Daisey sources. These sources are not retracting their stories, unlike a couple of Apple regulars last weekend posting about how ALL negative Apple stories were being retracted because of Daisey.

Good thing the Appleistas had an outbreak of common sense, too, because I would have linked them for the rest of eternity on every "how great Apple is" post as a reminder that everyone can be Mike Daisey.

[former9thward]

61. You said all of these conditions were documented elsewhere.

That is false. But expected from the I Live To Hate Apple crowd. The wages and conditions of Apple workers in China and elsewhere are better than others in China. I see nothing wrong with that. If you want to blame Apple for all the world's problems and that gets you through the day go for it.

[Romulox]

62. LOL. I thought the line was "EVERYBODY makes stuff at Foxconn," (the suicide plant).

Now the Foxconn workers working on Apple contracts are being treated *better* than those working at the same plant making, say, Xboxes ?

Not even Apple makes that ludicrous claim!

[former9thward]

65. The suicide claim has been debunked.

The Foxconn factory has a smaller suicide rate than American cities of that size. So if you are horrified of that rate then work on conditions in America first.

[Romulox]

67. Nonsense. That's a bogus comparison. The correct comparison is to a similar US manufacturing plant.

Foxconn isn't a "city", it's an inhumane private corporation. Hope this helps.

[former9thward]

70. A similar US manufacturing plant??? Really???

Foxconn has 700,000 employees. The largest U.S. factories have about 10,000. Foxconn has schools, hospitals, stores and dormitories. Things that U.S. factories do not have. Foxconn is completely comparable to a small city in the U.S. Facts are pesky things!

[Romulox]

71. Cities have jails. And mental hospitals. And homeless people. And junkies. Foxconn got those, too?

[former9thward]

79. China does not have homeless people and junkies.

They do not tolerate them. So I assume Foxconn does not have them either. Not that those things have anything to do with these posts but I understand that is all you got.

[Romulox]

89. Your assertions are simply bizarre and inaccurate. Moreover, they are entirely irrelevant. nt

[former9thward]

95. You can't answer facts.

And that drives you nuts. It is funny that you say my assertions (facts) are irrelevant when I am answering items brought up in YOUR post -- which I agree is irrelevant.

[Romulox]

99. Foxconn isn't a city. Fact. China has a huge heroin problem. Fact. Your claims are ludicrous. n

[Pholus]

102. LOL. Fact. Facts don't matter when you argue with marketspeak.

You do a darned good job trying though!

[Romulox]

103. Thanks Pholus! I really appreciate your posts to this thread. nt

[Pholus]

104. Right back at you! :) nt

[former9thward]

105. Funny I have never seen that in the two times I have been to China.

I see junkies all the time in the city I live in. But I guess you are the expert -- at something...

[Pholus]

101. So is that "fact" a strength in your opinion?

If not, why do business with them and welcome to "my side."

If so, you've already staked out a moral position which says more than enough about you.

[Pholus]

77. Here you go. The last time I showed you this list you just went away.

Just like wearing garlic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?pagewanted=all

Find Mike Daisey's name in that article FTW. Of course you won't.

[former9thward]

96. Oh a story in the Times which was the only paper

whose tech analyst slammed the new iPad. Might someone there have an agenda? Of course you are moving the goalposts which is typical. This thread was about the American Life story. That what I have been answering. You want to run away from that.

I and no one has ever said working conditions in Apple factories or any factory in China was perfect. Where are they perfect anyway? In the U.S. where in any given year between 5000 - 8000 people die in workplace accidents? But you live to hate Apple so you want their factories to be pristine and if they aren't then they are horrible and oppressive. Interesting the Times article was written in such a manner than it is impossible to fact check it. "Workers there have said" I could write an article like that too and it would be worth as much.

[Pholus]

97. So that's your final answer? Bzzzzzt! You lose!!!!

It's not just the Times (though I guess by saying paper you were trying to avoid other negative sources) and that can be proved in 5 seconds with a google search.

Here is a big hint and here's hoping that it's not too tough for you. Sing the first three notes of the alphabet song and you'll find
another independent investigation.

Maybe if you get stuck siri can help you.

Please try to be more prepared next time. It's kind of boring having to argue details instead of substance with you. Especially when you're so obviously wrong about even that.

[Romulox]

100. LOL. Yeah, if you want to go by what's in the *paper*, yes, Apple is a human rights abuser...

But have you seen Apple's press release on the matter? For me, it's the only confirmation of my internal biases that I need.

[Mc Mike]

106. +1 to Rom and Phol on the entire discussion. Keep on rockin! NT

[frankroberts]

23. bill maher talking to mike daisy in feb

[msongs]

24. they're all out paying half the price for a computer just as good or better lol nt

[randr]

27. Responsibility lies with the consumer

Similarly, here in the good ol US of A, the use of hand held texting devises is reported to be consuming the power from one nuc power plant daily.
Do not cast stones recklessly.

[Pholus]

28. No crickets here! NYTIMES and ABC investigations stand unchallenged.

Daisey claimed to see things personally that he apparently didn't. Of course, they were based on real events. It's just too bad he made his personal version of this shit up because there are plenty of logo whores who will use that to rationalize away a major moral failing by yet another multinational corporation.

But please don't let that ruin your i-crap high this weekend!

Peace out!

[joshcryer]

42. Yep, it's already being used to push apathy and justify this relationship.

It's sad that it went down this way.

[Mc Mike]

64. + 1. This smells like Karl Rove's "MemoGate" gambit in '04.

There was a ton of evidence that lil bush dodged the Vietnam War draft via the Tx and Al National Guard, and he didn't show up for service.

Then during the '04 presidential campaign, up pops a helpful soul with a memo that says bush didn't show up for service (for one drill). CBS and Dan Rather run with the story, and the memo is transparently fake. Repug on-line operatives blow it away within minutes of the release of the network's story, and Rather along with his producer Ms. Mapes were forced to resign. CBS apologizes for doubting lil bush's heroism.

The story became how the media was lying about bush's 'service' to our nation. While simultaneously Rove's Swift-boaters were casting doubt on Kerry's 5 combat decorations. So a serious weakness for bush became a strong selling point for him in '04, while Kerry's strong combat record became a weakness, because he apparently was a 'well-connected, lying slacker'.

This "Mass Media Smears Poor Apple Corp" story is exactly the same. Daisy has appeared on Chris Hayes' show "Up" several times, but I think that MSNBC was booking him, not Mr. Hayes. I will be interested to see if Chris addresses this, and how, because I trust him.

[saras]

29. The apple ad demonstrates its superiority to Microsoft - what can you say?

"Will we increase the storage capacity of an existing product and increase the price? Or will we remove features and capacity and reduce the price?"

Two fair choices, versus Windows single "We WILL remove features and capacity and INCREASE the price".

But hey, that's why Microsoft doesn't make hardware - you can't get away with that in the real world.

I'm kind of curious as to who first claimed Daisey was reporting in the first place. I don't see this crucial detail mentioned much.

[joshcryer]

40. Daisey's narrative has untruths. Doesn't change that others have reported the same stuff.

And that all in all the labor conditions are deplorable.

No crickets here. Most of my arguments did not rely on Daisey's narrative.

[A HERETIC I AM]

44. This American Life did NOT cancel the show. It aired in early January.

What they did today however, was take an entire hour for a Mea Culpa, admitting they shouldn't have aired the piece.

[alarimer]

52. This does not exonerate Apple or any other tech company

Conditions are still abysmal in all these factories, largely because China is the major exploiter of workers on the planet. So Apple, Samsung, Walmart, etc. are all guilty. This story does not change that fact. The unfortunate thing about this is that it will deflect attention away from the truly horrific conditions in these factories. Fanboys will crow that this exonerates Apple, when it does not. In fact all you Apple and other tech fans are GUILTY of human rights violations simply by buying these products. I am guilty too, as is every single shareholder and employee of these companies. We need a worldwide boycott of all tech companies until they change their ways, but we will not do that because we love our shiny new object. We don't actually give a shit about the workers who made them. Screw you, I've got mine should be our national slogan.

[Romulox]

59. Daisey sounds like a false-flag propagandist. Wonder if Apple is paying him? nt

[Safetykitten]

63. I for one am so glad about this travesty of reporting being corrected by reality.

Now I know. Like Dan Rather's experience with the Bush moron service record, I now can sleep soundly knowing that it is all a huge lie. I like how we now know that all the stories are untrue. All the bad reports, all the victimization of the workers, who actually are all happy, content, and live wonderfull lives of happily working at Fox...what was that place? See, it's already been vaporized from my memory! Knowing that the truth, the complete happiness and wonderfull working conditions are indeed the reality of these workers makes my consumer heart sing.

This is important for me. Not that I buy Apple products, but my friends, they need this assurance. It's important to them. They need to know that their iPad part of a juggernaut rush to the future is prepared for them in a perfect world and thankfully now, in a truthfull world where we know for a fact all is well with the happy people that make it.

Let this be a lesson to anyone that wants to explore the bad side of things we like/adore/fetish over. Everyone likes a good burger, but we don't particularly don't want to know how it's made, especially when at the beach bar having fun and looking at funny porn on our Apple device. And who would? Apple is our all, it is our economy.

Watch MSNBC now. To think otherwise is not a correct reporting of reality.

[Mc Mike]

66. Thanks Sk. You beat me to the punch by ~ 20 mins., but I gear up slowly. NT

[RZM]

68. What an overdramatic take on this

Did you listen to this week's 'This American Life?' They spent the first 2/3 of the show talking to Daisey, his translator, and explaining what he did wrong.

Then in the final 1/3, they talked to real journalists who are trustworthy and actually know facts about working conditions in factories that make Apple products. So clearly they weren't trying to sweep the issue under the rug. They debunked Daisey's story, which they had an ethical obligation to do. But they didn't leave the listener hanging on the issue. They still talked about it, but this time with less drama and more facts.

Your third paragraph especially is completely wrong. That was not the lesson. The lesson was this:

'Done make shit up. If you do, you are a lying bastard. And if you present such person's story as fact, you need to explain to your audience why you gave them incorrect information.'

[dionysus]

69. i hear a spirited defense of Apple's heinous labor practices.

[hughee99]

72. Ask and ye shall receive. n/t

[TroglodyteScholar]

84. Don't worry, we're still here.

What's worse than Apple, though, are it's mindless followers who look for any excuse to obsess over their brandmaster in public.

But we all know the adage about fools and their money... no stopping it.

[Zalatix]

85. Sorry, my outrage is not based on Apple. It's based on OFFSHORING.

If Apple drops off the Earth as the most conspicuous culprit, then someone else will get picked as the example.

Since it's so difficult to target the entire industry we'll have to pick poster boys/girls. Today, Apple, tomorrow, someone else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Dell

That's my candidate.

Easy peachy, company is anti union, don't pay taxes, produces stuff at Zenxhen province, and give most of it's donations to the RNC.



I agree with you, it's the system. And people need to wake up to this.

[Zalatix]

87. Well, what computer maker doesn't contribute to the RNC?

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. The intelligent ones contribute to both parties

Dell is bad in that sense.