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It Has Been Said Here, That The Brutal Take Down Of Occupy Is Hyperbole... (Original Post) WillyT Jan 2014 OP
America is a sad, shameful place these days. polichick Jan 2014 #1
De Blasio needs to be tested to see whose side he's really on. House of Roberts Jan 2014 #2
Funny you should say that. I recommended this very thing...... socialist_n_TN Jan 2014 #19
Hey thanks! House of Roberts Jan 2014 #36
+1 1000words Jan 2014 #25
I thank how you like! House of Roberts Jan 2014 #38
That would be a baseless claim, WillyT. Jefferson23 Jan 2014 #3
What Occupy went through pales in comparison to what the Civil Rights movement went through Cali_Democrat Jan 2014 #4
Ya See Cali_D... We Made The Mistake Of Thinking That Those Before Us Paved The Way... WillyT Jan 2014 #9
No. Occupy GAVE UP Cali_Democrat Jan 2014 #10
So Where Is...Or Was... YOUR Tent Located ??? WillyT Jan 2014 #23
Yeah, that's how you win. Personal attacks against people who would be on your jtuck004 Jan 2014 #30
And Yet The Fact That Y'all Would Shit On These Honorable Folks... The Ones That Tried... WillyT Jan 2014 #37
"These folks" is all of us, btw. And who is shitting on them? The people who make jtuck004 Jan 2014 #41
Ok... That's Two Posts Of Yours I Do Not Understand... Could Ya Boil It Down ??? WillyT Jan 2014 #43
The short version. One day a little bird landed, frozen, in the snow of a field. jtuck004 Jan 2014 #115
Well that is how it is done WillyT zeemike Jan 2014 #60
So, you're saying that DUers should stand by Occupy no matter what and defend it and never merrily Jan 2014 #81
Well that is just how it works. zeemike Jan 2014 #85
somehow, your first post did not seem quite that evenhanded. merrily Jan 2014 #87
They had no internet, but there was the Draft notundecided Jan 2014 #29
Bullshit. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #32
Add Occupy Foreclosures and Occupy First Night, so many others. merrily Jan 2014 #83
Here, let me help you since you seem lost and uninformed. Did you know that OWS's goal was to sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #89
+1,000 and still no one has mentioned Rolling Jubilee or this ... Scuba Jan 2014 #116
Well, some of us have sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #137
^^^^this^^^^ L0oniX Jan 2014 #127
"The Volcker Rule Cites the Occupy Movement 284 Times" Hissyspit Jan 2014 #111
Occupy Boston is still active. merrily Jan 2014 #56
Bull. Th1onein Jan 2014 #12
OWS is only beginning. Give it time. So much wishful thinking. 'OWS IS DEAD!' Lol! sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #24
I know. merrily Jan 2014 #73
Occupy had logistic problems. The problem of living in tents in the winter was a big one. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #47
Sleeping outdoors could go on only for so long, but, obviously, merrily Jan 2014 #77
Boston Occupy is still at work. merrily Jan 2014 #54
+1. There are people alive who don't even know that there was once a good guy named "Chaney." MADem Jan 2014 #88
They are buying debt and giving people their houses back, thank you! grahamhgreen Jan 2014 #101
That depends heavily on which statement is being analyzed. WatermelonRat Jan 2014 #5
Bull. Th1onein Jan 2014 #13
Is it? Considering that the FBI labeled OWS as a 'terrorist threat', revealed through an FOIA sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #26
No need for speculation about which statement is being analyzed. merrily Jan 2014 #86
I confess, those idealistic kids and their photo shop!!!! nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #6
The best test is to take it completely out of our own context and put it someplace else. pa28 Jan 2014 #7
+1 - The Duplicity Of American Media And The Oligarchs (1%) That Own The News cantbeserious Jan 2014 #8
A poster stated Kelvin Mace Jan 2014 #11
Bull. Th1onein Jan 2014 #15
"They" are right here on DU... reACTIONary Jan 2014 #48
Some are. How many are not? Th1onein Jan 2014 #79
Could you move your pc cam to the right just a little bit snooper2 Jan 2014 #122
Typical move to discredit another's point of view/belief Th1onein Jan 2014 #139
I guess I'm an exception, then. ancianita Jan 2014 #59
FOIA your FBI file nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #135
Good idea. I'll get back to you. ancianita Jan 2014 #149
One of my relatives, who helped out Occupy... reACTIONary Jan 2014 #146
Was Occupy "classified as terrorists"... reACTIONary Jan 2014 #147
Big brother will not blanche demonstration of displeasure with the policies or actions of indepat Jan 2014 #14
Who is this Big Brother? Progressive dog Jan 2014 #138
by someone who brags about having money and the influence it buys on the "Democratic" process reddread Jan 2014 #16
well the trouble was they needed something better hfojvt Jan 2014 #17
The camp in the park indefinitely was very much a media meme as the only thing done nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #18
The one thing that Ocuppy did accomplish... reACTIONary Jan 2014 #52
That was my local occupy nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #53
Thanks for the info... I'll google it. (nt) reACTIONary Jan 2014 #55
It helps when one of the activists was a career employee of the CPUC nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #67
Occupy had absolutely NOTHING to do with San Onofre closing. zappaman Jan 2014 #62
that's all well and good hfojvt Jan 2014 #120
Like it wasn't nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #131
you shouldn't think that hfojvt Jan 2014 #132
The photos, some of the photos in 1964, are of campus and state nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #133
Seeing OWS as a political movement is your first mistake 1000words Jan 2014 #21
Well there is that too nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #27
okay hfojvt Jan 2014 #121
Actually OWS had huge support, over 80% in NYC when Bloomberg was using what he called 'his army' to sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #28
+1000 JDPriestly Jan 2014 #50
meaning that hfojvt Jan 2014 #123
Occupy isn't a branch of the Democratic Party. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #34
And that's the problem as far as they're concerned. Occupy embodied the rejection of Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #61
I just consider the source and dismiss it. K&R Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #20
Debate is stifled when all one poster does is respond with LOL! and rollie smilies. OnyxCollie Jan 2014 #70
It isn't hyperbole, Willy, to anyone... 99Forever Jan 2014 #22
How old are these pix? babylonsister Jan 2014 #31
You Don't Recognize Any Of Them ??? WillyT Jan 2014 #35
The first pic is of an Iraq veteran... tnlefty Jan 2014 #39
Yep... And The Women Maced In NY, And The Kids Maced At UC Davis... WillyT Jan 2014 #40
I recognize ALL of them! And my comment below babylonsister Jan 2014 #46
Just Curious... How Come You're Not Riled Up ??? WillyT Jan 2014 #51
You keep that up, you will have a heart attack. babylonsister Jan 2014 #63
Thank You For That... But, How Long Do We Wait When The Answers Are In Front Of Our Faces ??? WillyT Jan 2014 #64
Live your life, and if you have any idea how to solve this... babylonsister Jan 2014 #69
Wow... WillyT Jan 2014 #71
Just accept Obama into your life and everything will be fine. OnyxCollie Jan 2014 #72
Yeah... I Feel Like I'm At A Scientology Gathering... WillyT Jan 2014 #75
And after Obama, whoever replaces him nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #80
The fight might have to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary in huge country with 50 judicial ancianita Jan 2014 #105
Seeds...what happened after Freedom summer in the 60s nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #136
Haha!! What's selfish? babylonsister Jan 2014 #74
You're Positive About You... WillyT Jan 2014 #76
Bwhahaha!!Yes, I'm in it for me. I babylonsister Jan 2014 #82
LOL !!! - Yeah, And At The Rate We're Going... We're Gonna Have To Figure Out How To Vote For... WillyT Jan 2014 #84
Ironic infoviro Jan 2014 #119
one person walking is not gonna change much hfojvt Jan 2014 #124
You seriously did not recognize them? nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #44
Yes, but it's great shit, Mrs. Crezgie! MrMickeysMom Jan 2014 #66
Flagged as potential terrorists, but no one needed to throw that label on them. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #33
I would be willing to bet that NSA is closely monitoring many of the people who ... spin Jan 2014 #42
Oh, don't stop there! MrMickeysMom Jan 2014 #68
True. (n/t) spin Jan 2014 #78
Even in da 60s, when you went to the next demonstration, the joke was Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #145
And they should be banned for their blatant fascist rhetoric...occupy was brutalized and still hunte Drew Richards Jan 2014 #45
K&R ReRe Jan 2014 #49
Not hyperbole. But perhaps if the issue is whether it's been killed, perhaps it wasn't meant to stay ancianita Jan 2014 #57
Great Points All !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #58
Before Occupy began, the national conversation was about how merrily Jan 2014 #90
+ 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #93
Agreed.Occupy isn't dead at all.It taught millions, and the changes you outline can't be overlooked. ancianita Jan 2014 #97
As this thread points out well, some of the lies come from Democrats. merrily Jan 2014 #99
In hashing out the significance of OWS, differing rhetoric and understandings don't constitute lies. ancianita Jan 2014 #102
Very true. merrily Jan 2014 #103
NOW you're talking sellout. Or sarcasm? I'm talking about making effort in unity of understanding, ancianita Jan 2014 #107
Neither sell out nor sarcasm. merrily Jan 2014 #110
Ah. Thanks for the clarification. Fair points. I think and act the same way about differences. ancianita Jan 2014 #113
You're welcome. And thank you for your thoughts. merrily Jan 2014 #114
OWS is not 3rd way corporate centrist Dem friendly. L0oniX Jan 2014 #128
+ another Scuba Jan 2014 #117
I agree. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #126
Hyperbole is mstinamotorcity2 Jan 2014 #65
"The brutal takedown" presumes the various responses to Occupy were one-and-the-same action struggle4progress Jan 2014 #91
No, it hasn't... brooklynite Jan 2014 #92
Parsing... Try THIS On For Size: WillyT Jan 2014 #94
Perhaps...now show me where DU has described the Police response to Occupy as Hyperbole brooklynite Jan 2014 #95
Not DU... But Go Here: WillyT Jan 2014 #96
Quoting the OP: "It has been said HERE...." brooklynite Jan 2014 #98
Ok Fine... You Look At ThOSE Pictures, And Argue Semantics Instead Of Humanity ??? WillyT Jan 2014 #100
Chicken shit couch monkey Anti Justice Movement corporatist weenbags say that about every group Zorra Jan 2014 #104
Yep... Good Thing They Weren't Terrorists... They Might Have REALLY Gotten Their Asses Kicked... WillyT Jan 2014 #106
I was involved in Occupy and saw some bad stuff done by the "authorities." U4ikLefty Jan 2014 #108
Thank You... And Thank You For That Info !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #109
Well my work outs included a good guessing of routes nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #134
This message was self-deleted by its author Hissyspit Jan 2014 #112
Kicked and recommended a whole bunch. Enthusiast Jan 2014 #118
"Non-violent" protests are a misnomer. In actuality, they are roughly half as violent. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #125
FBI talked about SHOOTING people with a contractor like MURDER was business-as-usual. Octafish Jan 2014 #129
K&R Kurovski Jan 2014 #141
Something is very wrong when citizens who protest injustice... Octafish Jan 2014 #142
Thanks, WillyT. This is why they brutalized peaceful Occupy protesters: Zorra Jan 2014 #130
That should be an OP. Octafish Jan 2014 #143
The people who wrote it are us. Zorra Jan 2014 #144
Common Willy T, they were after all in the way of the bankers limo's... arthritisR_US Jan 2014 #140
May I offer a poem? "Tense, Quiet Interlude:" Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #148

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
19. Funny you should say that. I recommended this very thing......
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:28 PM
Jan 2014

at the meeting of Workers' Power last night. There's the CUNY 8 that have been charged with some pretty serious things. Under the circumstances of their arrest, most of those charges would have been dismissed or bargained down by now, but the NYC DA's office is playing hardball with them. I suggested our comrades in NYC put together a campaign to get De Blasio to use his influence to get the charges dismissed. I hope they take my suggestion because it WOULD put him to an early test.

Edited to add: Welcome to DU.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
3. That would be a baseless claim, WillyT.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 08:36 PM
Jan 2014

It would be fair and actually important for there to be an honest conversation
about what went wrong, and why...but you are not likely to hear that among
anyone who would claim, as you say they have..that there was no effort made
to shut this down.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
4. What Occupy went through pales in comparison to what the Civil Rights movement went through
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 08:37 PM
Jan 2014

in the 1960's.

The Civil Rights movement endured and they achieved many of their goals. What Occupy went through was like Club Med compared to the folks in Birmingham. Occupy just gave up.

That's why there's a lack of respect for Occupy. It's like they didn't even really believe in what they allegedly were fighting for.

Occupy had the right message, but they just gave up.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
9. Ya See Cali_D... We Made The Mistake Of Thinking That Those Before Us Paved The Way...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:02 PM
Jan 2014

Hell... compared to Nazi Germany... the Civil Rights Movement was Club-Med.

Compared to Attila The Hun... Nazi Germany was a fucking picnic in the park.

We as Human Beings... are expected to learn, evolve, and move forward.

NOT FUCKING BACKWARD!

IOW... Progress...

Occupy didn't give up... more likely... we gave up on them... and ourselves.


 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
10. No. Occupy GAVE UP
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:08 PM
Jan 2014

They're pretty much nowhere to be found now...except on anonymous message boards pounding away on their keyboards.

Weak sauce.

The folks in the 1960's had no internet but they had 1000X more HEART.

That's what it's about.

Occupy. Gave. Up.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
23. So Where Is...Or Was... YOUR Tent Located ???
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:38 PM
Jan 2014


I don't pretend to have camped out (was at our local version every weekend it was going), yet I'm not pissing on their grave either.

BTW - They ARE still active, and working for the right things...

It just that the MSM disappeared them with the help of police thugs, and unless you are online you might not know that.

You are online, right ???

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
30. Yeah, that's how you win. Personal attacks against people who would be on your
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:55 PM
Jan 2014

side, whose transgression, apparently, is recognizing reality, instead of attacking the enemy. And it's not the MSM's fault that occupy isn't doing anything big enough to report on.

Just because a few people throw themselves off a cliff to make a point doesn't mean that someone who doesn't isn't just as committed. Maybe they just see the futility in what wasn't being accomplished.

On the other hand, yours is the first post I have ever seen someone who is an occupy cheerleader suggest that they made a mistake. That's a first step. When you blame others you give away your power. The old saying goes something like

"First you blame others. Then you blame yourself. Then you blame no one and solve the problem".

The rich, evil, venal corporate/political state is our enemy. Their actions are evil. But blaming them instead of doing what needs to be done, whether because it is too hard, or we aren't smart enough, or are afraid to trust each other, or for whatever reason, is our responsibility alone.





 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
37. And Yet The Fact That Y'all Would Shit On These Honorable Folks... The Ones That Tried...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:16 PM
Jan 2014

Speaks... fucking... volumes.


 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
41. "These folks" is all of us, btw. And who is shitting on them? The people who make
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:30 PM
Jan 2014

excuses and try to spin their behavior as something it was not, or those who are trying to make a change, recognizing that there are things that haven't been done yet, that have yet to be addressed because we can't get beyond the fucking 100-story tall egos that get in everyone's way?

btw - who we should be concerned about shitting on people are the wealthy who are ignoring our little kerfuffles. That is shitting on us. Our little squabbles don't mean shit, and they are taking money from us as we write.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
43. Ok... That's Two Posts Of Yours I Do Not Understand... Could Ya Boil It Down ???
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:33 PM
Jan 2014

I'm a simple man...




 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
115. The short version. One day a little bird landed, frozen, in the snow of a field.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 02:00 AM
Jan 2014

Last edited Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:25 AM - Edit history (1)

He lay there thinking, "I'm going to die".

A cow came along and shit on him. It was heavy, and he struggled, but then the shit warmed him up, and soon he began to sing,
knowing he was going to be ok when he got out from under all the shit.

A cat heard him, pulled him out, and ate him:

Lesson 1: Just because someone shits on you doesn't mean they are your enemy or not helping
Lesson 2: Just because someone pulls you out of your difficulty doesn't mean they are your friend.

(There is a third lesson, about keeping your mouth shut when you are in deep shit, but the first two are more on point).


That's the short version - Here is a longer one, an analogy I think. It's too long, but it's real life, and real stories sometimes take a while. Get some coffee or something, if you want to read it.

I have been involved with animal rescue for a long, long time. 30 or 40 years ago I used to think that all the adoption, transports, fostering, etc, combined with spay/neuter clinics would eventually stop the killing of pets in shelters, (accompanied by too much pain and tragedy for the pets, as well as too many people bites, etc), pets killed only for our convenience because there are too many to care for. I worked as hard as anyone, and watched as more clinics went up, more people volunteered. But over the years, across the nation, I found that the shelters wound up killing about the same number of pets, more in some places.

So I started studying to understand why. We started killing pets to solve the overpopulation problem early in the last century. By about the 60's we were killing about 20 million or more a year, but it wasn't enough, and they were building more "kill shelters". Roughly about that same time, however, vet schools started teaching vets how to spay/neuter. As that practice spread, the totals killed started decreasing, and millions more were never born every year, and we thought if we just do more of it, we will be at "zero". But about 1975 the numbers plateaued at roughly 4-6 million a year, and they have been there ever since.

So I went on a search for where, if anyplace, the goal was being reached, and I found two. One was a state effort in New Hampshire which was getting close by simply removing the charge for spay/neuter. Even with that, however, they were missing a fair number.

The one place that was doing the job was in Montana, the Montana Spay/Neuter Task Force. Back about 13-14 years ago the pet dogs were out of control on the Blackfeet Indian Reservation. Eating out of dumpsters, eating each other, lots of dog bites, etc. No one had any money to fix them, barely enough for bullets to shoot the most problematic ones (that is how it is done in a large part of rural America, even today). But when they assigned this fella to solve the problem, instead of putting together a greater kill effort he found a vet who would volunteer and who brought an assistant, and this guy let them use his basement. The people came, assisted where they could with whatever they could (food, registration, waking animals up - there is a lot that the vet or tech isn't needed for). Even people who had resisted earlier efforts, who were against spay/neuter for various reasons, came, primarily because their neighbors said it was a good idea - (the same key that Obama's campaign worked towards, btw - trying to identify the "influencer&quot .

The Task Force has been doing this in a number of places for a dozen years now, and they post stats on their web site:

http://www.montanaspayneutertaskforce.org/

Over and over they engage the communities in "fixing" their own problem, getting involved, and learning what to do. Not holding themselves out as experts, not condescending to tell people how to become "responsible pet owners". They bring in a few things, and encourage the people to create their own setting.The statistics they post on their pages indicate that the process they have works like no other.

(They still tell the story of the little girl that convinced her neighbor to come, guy with 3 breeding dogs that ran loose all the time, because she took him by the hand and led him there. Today that town no longer has a problem, and they found community in the process)

Their method works because the problem is not an animal problem, it is a people problem. And they reached the "unreachable", what all these other efforts fail to do. You HAVE to reach out into the community, get them involved, literally hands on.

I studied that method, and then went to a few small towns near here, and wound up on a reservation where their animal control consisted of taking dogs into the woods and shooting them. I went to a few community events, and then to a health fair, and there met the right people. I started a non-profit, wrote a couple of grants that paid for a couple vets, an assistant, and the supplies we needed. That city turned out and had their own spay/neuter event, and we did about 140+ dogs (and a few cats) that weekend. They took care of their animal control issues for a year - not a single animal was killed, no kids got bit.

So I know it works, I know how to get it started, I know how to follow through and get it done, and I know how to beat the do-gooders (we call them "puppy-huggers) back when they try, and they will, to do it FOR them. I also know that continuing on the way we are going gets more animals killed, more kids hurt.

So,my question to you is...

Am I shitting on people when I point out to them that they need to adopt this other method? I don't say it this way, but their efforts, noble as they may be, and as selfless as they are, in adopting animals out, fostering them, transporting them from one city to another are not only NOT doing the job, but they are helping the "enemy" when they do what they do.

You should see some of the hate mail I get

My goal is to convince them to adopt this method, and veterinarians pretty well understand it. but I get no end of shit from spay/neuter clinics, city shelters, so-called animal welfare groups, pet foster families, etc. Guess what they say to me? HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST WE ARE NOT DOING THE JOB. YOU BASTARD!!!!! etc... blah, blah, blah.

The people that are shitting on them are the shelters, the clinics, everyone who thinks this is an animal problem and refuses to look at the human element. Not me. But they continue to support all the above, and the problem continues.

They cannot get out from behind their egos. They are invested in the process, and cannot see above what they have been doing, what they believe is the right thing to do. It is near a religion with them.

Still with me?

Our enemy in the struggle you and I are talking about are the corporations, the wealthy. They have so much that they really don't care what any of us think. They are quite often not thinking about hurting us, just about how to get more preferential treatment from one of their lapdog politicians or their cheerleaders, more money from their accounts, more profit from their employees' labor. In short, we aren't even in their minds. They are after stuff. They are shitting on us. Not purposely, because they just throw the shit out not caring where it lands. But it lands on us.

So I submit to you...

Someone who sees the pain that people are living in every day, who would like to see someone, occupy or whomever, effectively fight it and change it, isn't shitting on you/me/us/occupy when they are critical. They are pointing out the same things that, say, Susan Sarandon, M. Moore and others were saying when they visited, that occupy needs to refine its message, find some specific things they can target and change, get a workable plan together. The things the civil rights folks said when they showed up and told occupy that they needed to train people, that their successes didn't really come about when someone just sat down on a damn bus - there was training, education, and consciousness-raising which took place first. Instead of the cutesy finger-waving to get attention stuff, get some shit on paper, and, if necessary, start a political party or big union (of sorts) or a the biggest god-damn soup kitchen effort ever, so that people don't have to feel so scared about joining in, about losing their jobs, and homes, and food. So they know who their friends are, and have someplace to go after they have been beaten all day. Big enough that it can't be ignored.

Instead, when occupy hit the street, they allowed people to throw bottles and destroy things - big, big fucking strategic mistake. There were lots of strategic mistakes, and it came from the unplanned, undisciplined way things were conducted. And today they (we) are reduced to whining about how the press isn't paying us any attention.

(Hint: It is OUR responsibility to do something big enough for the press to pay attention to, something so big they can't ignore it. But what is the plan? What's the follow-up when people see the story about what was done? Where do they go? How will we know when we have a success? (If Obama signs the TPP and gets SS reduced, did we win?)

When (some) people take on occupy, they aren't necessarily enemies. (Some are, but fuck them, eh?). Some are our allies, but they are left alone, without any sense of camaraderie. They are frustrated with the lack of anything changing, with the fact that they are surrounded by people who pretend to be friends and allies yet pursue a course of action that is harmful to us, as if they are aiding our enemies. (And they are). And they see the good people of occupy milling about, doing something, but nothing is really changing.

And if you ask how, let me refer you to the Koch Bros. and the radical right. They have a plan, They have people meeting in people's homes. They are training people. According to this video on the front page of DU, http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017169893 there are 30 bright red legislatures, 3/5 of the United States. She is leaving out all the school boards and municipal positions they have successfully grabbed, positions that have a very direct impact on people's lives.

And now they get to make the rules.

The comments below that video are instructive. The first one points out that this is an important message. The second one says "no, it's not" and says they are not to be worried about.

I submit that the second one is looking at the funny little drummer boy with the tea party hat and the teabags, in the front of the army, and not the army, as the speaker suggests in the first part of that video. Our enemies are in a well-planned action, and they will either win or burn the place to the ground. Some people are poo-pooing that. And people will be hurt, unnecessarily, because of it.

That is what I mean about letting one's ego get in the way of effective action.

Occupy needs a plan, needs to know exactly what they want to accomplish and how, and they need to act on it, using old people, young people whomever. They need to draw on the experience of others, let go of leadership or lead, something. Instead people are dying every day. There are at least 200 million Americans who are no further ahead, and many behind, where they were 10 years ago. They complain about the MSM not covering them, but unless they are making a meaningful change in that, there's nothing to write about. And if the plan doesn't work, we change it, and find one that does.

It's important, because the enemy is executing their plan, and people are dying every day while they march on. Frankly, they could lose an election or two, even the house for a couple years or 4, and it won't change a thing about what they are doing. They see those as acceptable losses, and are prepared to fight even harder for the next one. Or stop things altogether and let them burn or die, until they can win.

Unless occupy is doing something similar, they aren't even in the fight.

Yeah, too long.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
60. Well that is how it is done WillyT
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:10 PM
Jan 2014

To divide and conquer you get people on the same side (presumably) to criticize and find fault with each other.

You will never see the right wingers do that ever...they stand by the tea party no matter what they do and defend them and never find fault with them...and so they remain united against the divided progressives.
We never seem to learn.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
81. So, you're saying that DUers should stand by Occupy no matter what and defend it and never
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:44 PM
Jan 2014

find fault with Occupy? Or are you saying that Occupiers should never criticize DU for diminishing Occupy's accomplishments, struggles and bravery?

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
85. Well that is just how it works.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:54 PM
Jan 2014

One starts it and then takes offense when they are called out for it...it keeps the pot boiling.
And then you turn it on it's head and blame them for calling you on it...

You don't understand the principle that the enemy or your enemy is your friend...instead you find fault with the enemy of your enemy and make them your enemy too.
That is of course if the 1% is your enemy and not your friend.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
32. Bullshit.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:02 PM
Jan 2014

Occupy Our Homes, Strike Debt, Occupy Sandy.

Plus rallying hundreds or thousands of protestors, supporters and demonstrators to most movements that ask for help.

Maybe do some research before you start bad mouthing and spreading bullshit about a movement that actually stands for the 99%.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
89. Here, let me help you since you seem lost and uninformed. Did you know that OWS's goal was to
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:10 AM
Jan 2014

last for only TWO WEEKS at MOST in ONE location, Zuccotti Park.

But the Movement struck such a chord across the country and even the WORLD that they are STILL HERE, not TWO WEEKS as they planned, but TWO YEARS later.

Not just in ONE LOCATION as planned, but ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, still here, doing great things, and more, even less expected, ALL OVER THE WORLD.

THAT is called SUCCESS beyond one's wildest dreams. They hadn't planned to be around even for two weeks but they rose to the occasion and remained and even more, attracted Politicians, Dems mostly of course, and Economists and Movie Stars and Rock Bands and Journalists and Veterans, Unions, Teachers, Nurses, Fire Fighters, old and young, all walks of life, even some of the 1%.

And they are STILL HERE. Isn't it amazing?? And anti social justice authoritarians were declaring them DEAD on the very first day. That was the most fun, seeing their hopes dashed time and time again.

No need to thank me, I consider it my duty to correct false information.

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
111. "The Volcker Rule Cites the Occupy Movement 284 Times"
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:44 AM
Jan 2014
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/12/11/the-volcker-rule-cites-the-occupy-movement-284-times

1.) It's not a fair comparison.

2.) You are wrong.

The Volcker rule cites the Occupy Movement 284 times
By Lydia DePillis, Published: DECEMBER 11, 2013
1:27 PM ET

The world hasn't heard much from Occupy Wall Street lately. But one branch of it, Occupy the SEC, has remained very busy -- filing amicus briefs, testifying before Congress, suing regulators and writing comment letters, including a 325-page opus on the Volcker Rule. After quickly taking stock of how it turned out Tuesday, they gave the final version a "C-". Occupy's Akshat Tewary and Eric Taylor explained what problems they still have with it.

Lydia DePillis: So, could you just boil down that 325-page letter into a few bullet points for me?

Eric Taylor: If you look at the very end of that letter, we did produce an annex that had suggested language modifications. That's like 10 pages, and it's a summary of really concrete things that we wanted changed.

Akshat Tewary: Those were specific changes to the text of the regulation. If you're looking for a more holistic description, basically we thought there was more leeway in how the rules were written. Our problem was that Section 619 of Dodd-Frank, which is the section that became the Volcker Rule, had numerous exceptions built into it. We were already working with a flawed product, and we have this statute with a lot of exemptions in it that allow proprietary trading to occur. What can we do to strengthen the final product? It's sort of like a triage situation, so that what we come out with is not as bad.

From the beginning, there were numerous exemptions for hedging, market making, repo agreements, customer facing transactions, government securities. But then each one, the language needed to be tuned up, pretty much across the board. A couple areas we didn't comment, because they were okay. So from a summary perspective, most of the aspects needed tightening up to close loopholes, so that's what we tried to suggest.


merrily

(45,251 posts)
73. I know.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:33 PM
Jan 2014

LOL is the correct response, too. I am going to stop getting sad or frustrated and just LOL.

No matter what facts anyone provides, the same memes about Occupy will continue anyway, so may as well laugh.


Meanwhile.....

Occupy First Night.

Occupy Sandy

Occupy Foreclosures.

Etc.

Yeah, too bad "they've" been so aimless and unfocused and unproductive.

(Compared to what?)

And, of course, so long gone.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
47. Occupy had logistic problems. The problem of living in tents in the winter was a big one.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:44 PM
Jan 2014

Occupy in NYC must have been very cold, and the park they occupied was closed to them with brute police force. The situations are not at all comparable. The civil rights demonstrators pretty much went home at night. And even so, more than enough of them were killed or beaten.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
77. Sleeping outdoors could go on only for so long, but, obviously,
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:37 PM
Jan 2014

sleeping outdoors is not the only method that Occupy used and continues to use.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
88. +1. There are people alive who don't even know that there was once a good guy named "Chaney."
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:06 AM
Jan 2014

Sounds like Cheney, but very different.... There was a Goodman and a Schwerner who gave the ultimate sacrifice as well. They weren't alone, not by a long shot.

WatermelonRat

(340 posts)
5. That depends heavily on which statement is being analyzed.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 08:39 PM
Jan 2014

If it is the statement "police displayed unacceptable brutality in breaking up protests" then it would be accurate.

The statement "anyone connected to Occupy is being hunted down like a terrorist" on the other hand, is indeed hyperbole.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
26. Is it? Considering that the FBI labeled OWS as a 'terrorist threat', revealed through an FOIA
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:43 PM
Jan 2014

demand for documents, even before they hit the streets, no, it was not hyperbole. Not at all. 'hunted' might have been mildly hyperbolic, they generally are more careful when targeting US Citizens, for now. But overall, no it was not hyperbolic at all considering what has been revealed.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
86. No need for speculation about which statement is being analyzed.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:57 PM
Jan 2014

The title of the thread is" "It Has Been Said Here, That The Brutal Take Down Of Occupy Is Hyperbole..."

Most of the rest of the OP consists of pictures to prove that the statement was hyperbole.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
6. I confess, those idealistic kids and their photo shop!!!!
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 08:40 PM
Jan 2014

I am sure to hear this by the way from conservadems.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
7. The best test is to take it completely out of our own context and put it someplace else.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 08:53 PM
Jan 2014

If these events had happened in China or Russia our own major network media would call it "a political crackdown" or "bloody repression".

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
11. A poster stated
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:17 PM
Jan 2014

that Occupy supporters were "hunted like a terrorist".

That is hyperbole.

If he had stated that they were illegally brutalized, abused and spied on that would be fact, not hyperbole.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
15. Bull.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:22 PM
Jan 2014

They hunted them down and were surveilling them even before they started to occupy anything. AND, they were classified as terrorists almost from their very inception. Go forth, educate thyself.

reACTIONary

(5,747 posts)
48. "They" are right here on DU...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:47 PM
Jan 2014

... posting and blogging. In this thread, even. If they were or are being hunted down like terrorists, what are they doing here, speaking freely to us?

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
139. Typical move to discredit another's point of view/belief
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:26 PM
Jan 2014

Sorry, point not taken. Go try that crap on someone else. When you get done, come back and try to talk reasonably about your own point of view/belief, instead of making fun of mine.

ancianita

(35,711 posts)
59. I guess I'm an exception, then.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:08 PM
Jan 2014

I spent over $1,000 on food, supplies in Chi's Occupy, and afforded a friend going to help OWS. To my knowledge, I haven't been surveilled or put on a no-fly list or labeled a 'terrorist.' I think just a few Occupiers were chosen as examples to the rest of the country about what will happen if any more supporters come forward.

reACTIONary

(5,747 posts)
146. One of my relatives, who helped out Occupy...
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:43 PM
Jan 2014

... on weekends and such, has a security clearance. She still has a security clearance.

reACTIONary

(5,747 posts)
147. Was Occupy "classified as terrorists"...
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:52 PM
Jan 2014

... almost from the very beginning? Was it true that the "FBI labeled OWS as a 'terrorist threat'"?

CNN reports that, according to the documents obtained by FOIA request, the FBI was concerned that the Occupy venues could provide

"an outlet for a lone offender exploiting the movement for reasons associated with general government dissatisfaction."


This is not an unreasonable concern and it falls far short of labeling or classifying OWS as a "terrorist threat".

indepat

(20,899 posts)
14. Big brother will not blanche demonstration of displeasure with the policies or actions of
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:22 PM
Jan 2014

TPTB and will suppress such with whatever force/other criminality is necessary to get the job done. Heil, 'murika.

Progressive dog

(6,854 posts)
138. Who is this Big Brother?
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 07:07 PM
Jan 2014

He didn't really exist, you know. You cannot possibly expect to influence Americans (at least those who care enough to vote) with that kind of stupid gratuitous bullshit.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
16. by someone who brags about having money and the influence it buys on the "Democratic" process
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:22 PM
Jan 2014

not the sort who would have any use for bottom up democracy, is it?
I wouldnt put much stake in the views of a person like that.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
17. well the trouble was they needed something better
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:22 PM
Jan 2014

If you are gonna claim to represent "the 99%" then it helps to have the support of the 99%. You just don't get that by being a small group of people who want to "camp out in this park indefinitely".

A majority of the 99% quickly turned on them and supported the idea "do what it takes to get those trouble makers and losers out of the parks".

I mean, they didn't even accomplish the simple act of keeping Republican incumbents from retaining control of the House.

They should have left the parks and found something more effective to do long before it came to that.

But I largely felt the same way about Tiananmen square.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
18. The camp in the park indefinitely was very much a media meme as the only thing done
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:26 PM
Jan 2014

For example, those campers got a nuclear plant closed and are taking on the California Public Utilities Commission as to who should pay.

A few other things from these campers.

They started to pay debt off from people who could not.

Then there is this Sandy Relief that they did.

Did I mention taking on the banks over foreclosures?

How's that for only camping, not bad huh?

It does not help that editors bought that bull as well from the major media outlets.

reACTIONary

(5,747 posts)
52. The one thing that Ocuppy did accomplish...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:54 PM
Jan 2014

...in the opinion of some pundits I've read is that they made economic inequality a visible issue and a topic of serious discussion. That is quite an accomplishment, IMHO.

I'm not aware of the nuclear plant closing, so, no comment, but on the other accomplishments, all well and good, but basically what any competent charity organization could accomplish... not really political activism.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
67. It helps when one of the activists was a career employee of the CPUC
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:23 PM
Jan 2014

but hey, dirty hippies, heh? For the record that be Martha Sullivan. Yup she is now on the activist side, not the regulator side.

Locally on many places you find the vets. They have gone to the streets, and the neighborhoods.

Ray Lutz, mentioned in the Free Press article, is THIS Ray Lutz

http://sandiegofreepress.org/2012/06/activists-to-demand-san-onofre-closure-at-nrc-public-meeting-monday-june-18th/



There were others, like the women of SD Women Occupy, who went to the meetings, and sat through them and did the hard work.

Most of the media will not cover this aspect of the story.

Others have moved into the SD350 organization, dealign with climate change.

Some even joined Our Walmart and the fight for 15

zappaman

(20,605 posts)
62. Occupy had absolutely NOTHING to do with San Onofre closing.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:13 PM
Jan 2014

It would cost to much money to improve and stay running.
But nice try.


Q: What was the problem at San Onofre?

High vibration and other issues degraded about 8.7% of the tubes in the replacement steam generators at San Onofre and led to a leak of radioactive water in one generator, according to the manufacturer of the generators.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/07/local/la-me-ln-why-san-onofre-nuclear-plant-closing-cost-20130607

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
120. that's all well and good
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:31 AM
Jan 2014

and yet all the violence pictured here was a fight with the police over
cops - we want you out of this park
occupy - we want to stay in the park

Like staying in the park indefinitely was the main point.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
131. Like it wasn't
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:47 PM
Jan 2014

But I guess if that is all you got, I can't help you. Congrats, the media told you what to think and you do.

Do you know anything about the Free Speech movement in Berkeley? Because by your logic it was all about occupying a couple buildings in Berkeley and nothing more. Think of that when you think of Occupy. And it has been just as a radicalizing experience.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
133. The photos, some of the photos in 1964, are of campus and state
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:08 PM
Jan 2014

Police removing kids by force.

Several are of a police car surrounded by thousands of students. Some kids standing on the roof.

Those photos exist because they show conflict, a basic tool in photo journalism. In my computer I got a lot of photos of people reading poetry. What do you think the local editors, or for that matter the NYT will run? People reading poetry, or in a drum circle or a bloodied face?

I am willing to bet you spent zero hours in any occupy camp, or know what has happened since. So tell me, when was the last time you took on the CPUC in the name of your fellow rate layers? Have you joined a march with your fellow low wage workers to get a minimum wage increase? Or worst in solidarity cause you do have a good paying job? I could go on. I am just telling you, if all you got was that conflict, mission fracking accomplished and the free speech movement was about a few table placement at Berkeley, nothing more.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
121. okay
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:32 AM
Jan 2014

but is it just as funny when legislation gets passed that increases the inequality that Occupy was supposedly protesting?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
28. Actually OWS had huge support, over 80% in NYC when Bloomberg was using what he called 'his army' to
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:49 PM
Jan 2014

brutalize them out of Zuccotti Park. Asked if they supported the right of the protesters regardless of their message, huge numbers of Americans voted 'yes'.

In fact the support AND awareness of their protests was among the highest for beginning movement.

It was brilliant, the planning, the messaging. Proven by how their message has entered the language and been used even by Politicians now.

And to think they NEVER INTENDED to be around for more than two weeks TOPS.

Talk about success!

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
123. meaning that
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:51 AM
Jan 2014

huge numbers of Americans support the first amendment right to free assembly.

Kinda more important to get them to support "the message".

Some politicians are using "their message".

That's nice, since I was already using "their message" when I ran for Congress in 2010. http://www.koch2congress.com/

"Does Congresswoman Jenkins represent you, or does she represent the richest 5% of Americans?"

Okay, a slight variation, and I still think narrowing to the 1% or the 0.1% or the 0.01% as some people like to do - is a mistake. Even if the 1% sorta dominates these pie charts.

http://www.koch2congress.com/5.html

But it can't be called a "success" until at least ONE party starts representing the bottom 80%, and at this point, still, NEITHER party is doing so, at least at the national level.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
61. And that's the problem as far as they're concerned. Occupy embodied the rejection of
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:11 PM
Jan 2014

"we suck a little less " politics. Can't have expectations raised.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
20. I just consider the source and dismiss it. K&R
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:30 PM
Jan 2014

Assholes with an agenda are like, ...well, assholes, they're everywhere and they all stink.

The best way to deal with them is to laugh at them.

 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
70. Debate is stifled when all one poster does is respond with LOL! and rollie smilies.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:29 PM
Jan 2014

Straight to the ignore list.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
22. It isn't hyperbole, Willy, to anyone...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:35 PM
Jan 2014

... who isn't an apologist for the 1% and it's corporate lackeys and thugs.

tnlefty

(16,529 posts)
39. The first pic is of an Iraq veteran...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:20 PM
Jan 2014

pelted in the head to the point that he was in the hospital for a day or two.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
40. Yep... And The Women Maced In NY, And The Kids Maced At UC Davis...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:27 PM
Jan 2014

"How old are those pics?"

Talk about being out of the loop, or... nevermind.








babylonsister

(170,928 posts)
46. I recognize ALL of them! And my comment below
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:42 PM
Jan 2014

was ... you are stirring shit again.

You're posting old pics to rile people up. Yuck. Same as it ever was, WillyT.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
51. Just Curious... How Come You're Not Riled Up ???
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:51 PM
Jan 2014

What keeps you so warm and comfortable ???

I'm pretty pissed myself.

I've got nieces/nephews of 5, 17, and 19.

Taking care of my 84 year old Depression/WW II surviving widow mom. Three Sisters/Three Bother's-In-Law...

Plus there are hundreds of extended family and friends, my country, my fellow Human Beings, AND THE ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET !!!

Plus... how long are we expected to wait... for the solutions right in front of our faces?


babylonsister

(170,928 posts)
63. You keep that up, you will have a heart attack.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:14 PM
Jan 2014

I've been there, done that. Don't get so hepped up about something that won't change immediately. Do something besides griping to change it. You want a better world for your family? Walk it and stop talking it.

babylonsister

(170,928 posts)
69. Live your life, and if you have any idea how to solve this...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:26 PM
Jan 2014
How Long Do We Wait When The Answers Are In Front Of Our Faces ???

considering no one knows what you were talking about and/or don't care, it will be fine.

Forgettaboutit!
 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
80. And after Obama, whoever replaces him
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:43 PM
Jan 2014

all will be ok. TRUST US!!!!

And then they say things when I mention that little feature of a police state that dominates US Politics these days (cult of personality) And yes, on this one BOTH SIDES DO IT.

ancianita

(35,711 posts)
105. The fight might have to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary in huge country with 50 judicial
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:09 AM
Jan 2014

security systems. We're as much too big to succeed as to fail, I sometimes think.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
136. Seeds...what happened after Freedom summer in the 60s
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:43 PM
Jan 2014

And the Berkeley free speech movement is a good parallel. I see this locally, occupy is dead, long live occupy!

And that radicalizing experience is what scares the powers that be. They pounded, used police powers, these people got radicalized.

Those seeds will sprout. The problem is the national security apparatus that will try to cut them down.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
76. You're Positive About You...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:36 PM
Jan 2014

And that is very important for... you.

The country, the species, the planet... not so much.

But good health to you!


 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
84. LOL !!! - Yeah, And At The Rate We're Going... We're Gonna Have To Figure Out How To Vote For...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:52 PM
Jan 2014
Climate Change, While Under Water.






 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
44. You seriously did not recognize them?
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:35 PM
Jan 2014

let me give you some more non recognizable photos.







Just a sample.

Hell, I even took more than a few at Occupy events so your memory is that short? Really?

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
66. Yes, but it's great shit, Mrs. Crezgie!
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:23 PM
Jan 2014

(if you're not familiar with FireSign Theater, you won't get that line)

The pictures are as old as the occupy movement, which was too short for me. Some of the movement's milestones are captured in these pictures. They are etched in the memory of everyone who knows how necessary it was to have stood up to everything that stands for greed and indifference.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
33. Flagged as potential terrorists, but no one needed to throw that label on them.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:09 PM
Jan 2014

Anarchist, black bloc, and socialist were labels enough to bring the crackdown.

spin

(17,493 posts)
42. I would be willing to bet that NSA is closely monitoring many of the people who ...
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:30 PM
Jan 2014

participated in the movement.

Welcome to the surveillance state.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
145. Even in da 60s, when you went to the next demonstration, the joke was
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:33 PM
Jan 2014

"You updating your file, too?"

Or years later...

"The FBI refused to send copies of my files because they didn't want to pay the freight."

There was a lot of truth in that.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
49. K&R
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:48 PM
Jan 2014

Long live the Occupy Movement! The Representatives of the 99%. Most of them young people. I laud every single one of them. I couldn't be out there on the front lines with them, but I fed them. And I will feed them again if they make another public run of it. Who said that WillyT? I say whoever says that is part of the 1%. IMHO. Thanks for proving that brutality was real and bloody and totally uncalled for.

ancianita

(35,711 posts)
57. Not hyperbole. But perhaps if the issue is whether it's been killed, perhaps it wasn't meant to stay
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:03 PM
Jan 2014

in its original form. Occupy has probably morphed into a more diffused sense of awareness about oppression, and I believe these events wouldn't have happened without Occupy articulating how to not be co-opted by media and the 1%'s strategies. Now we have Walmart worker protests, US fast food workers protests, Boeing workers protest, Trayvon Martin protests, parent protests against Common Core in public schools, and many protests continuing in foreign countries who credit Occupy for some of their inspiration.

We're talking about the hard reality that the military faces in organizing supply lines for its front line people. Occupy had the same problems. Occupy didn't give up. It's physical presence just wasn't sustainable but it woke up millions more in America, and its spirit has lived on.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
90. Before Occupy began, the national conversation was about how
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:13 AM
Jan 2014

much social safety nets would have to be slashed in order for the members of the Grand Bargain Super Committee, mostly DLCers and Third Wayers on the Democratic side, to come to agreement with the likes of Paul Ryan. Oh, and, according to Pelosie, Chained CPI was not a cut to Social Security.,.

After Occupy began, the term "99%" became part of the national lexicon and eventually, some Democrats on Capitol Hill began talking about how Social Security should be increased, not cut; the movement to increase the minimum wage got momentum, etc.

And all that is separate and apart from how local Occupy movements got things done. Ask people in New Jersey about Occupy Sandy. Ask people in California about Occupy Foreclosures.

"Occupy accomplished nothing and has been a totally dead letter for the past two years." Can't we leave lies like that to media and the Tea Party?

ancianita

(35,711 posts)
97. Agreed.Occupy isn't dead at all.It taught millions, and the changes you outline can't be overlooked.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:44 AM
Jan 2014

These lies come from those who believe that brutal force can kill ideas. How wrong they are.

ancianita

(35,711 posts)
102. In hashing out the significance of OWS, differing rhetoric and understandings don't constitute lies.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:01 AM
Jan 2014

Let's take it a little easier on interpreting each other around here, is all I'm saying.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
103. Very true.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:05 AM
Jan 2014

I will even try to apply that same standard to everyone, including Republicans with differing understandings.

ancianita

(35,711 posts)
107. NOW you're talking sellout. Or sarcasm? I'm talking about making effort in unity of understanding,
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:17 AM
Jan 2014

not uniformity or total agreement among us. The word "lie" is too harsh and discourages further thought, making people take hard lines with each other.

Outside the party, though, you're more right than your sarcasm would suppose, since even a surprising number of Republican voters started to "get" the issues because of Occupy. They still don't believe in public protest but they now see how much more they are in a minority on economic issues.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
110. Neither sell out nor sarcasm.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:41 AM
Jan 2014

I understood your point. I did not, however, interpret your point as meaning I could never disagree with people who are critical of Occupy, only that I should not throw the term "lie" around carelessly. The latter is the point that I took that point to heart and said I would try to apply it to everyone.

"even Republicans" may have been posted half tongue in cheek, subconciously, but only half and only subconsciously. This is why:

First, at least in theory, I am not big on double standards.

Perhaps more importantly, if the 99% is going to reach its maximum, IMO, it will have to be 99%, not 50%. So, lately, I have been trying to work on being less knee jerk hateful about Republicans (those who are like me, meaning not professioinal politicians). I cannot honestly say that has been anything to which I have devoted a lot of effort to date. However, I do think that I should be trying.

If our enemies are truly the 1% and not each other, doesn't keeping us divided serve our enemies more than it serves us?




ancianita

(35,711 posts)
113. Ah. Thanks for the clarification. Fair points. I think and act the same way about differences.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:47 AM
Jan 2014

Staying flexible with opponents is no indicator of weakness, and so, to keep a 99% viable we'll have to live with differences but keep a unified focus on the stealth tactics of the 1% who try to convince the 99% that they're irreconcilably different in their/our economic interests.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
114. You're welcome. And thank you for your thoughts.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:55 AM
Jan 2014

There are opponents and then there are opponents. Is my beloved Republican cousin (the only one in our extended family!) my opponent as much as the 1% who spit on us or as much as the people of both of the largest two political parties who make laws and give tax breaks, bailouts, etc. to the 1%?

That is what I have been trying to remember. Both of the largest two political parties have invested a lot in making us hate each other, and old habits die hard, so I don't expect I will be able to change on a dime. But, I will try harder.

mstinamotorcity2

(1,451 posts)
65. Hyperbole is
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:21 PM
Jan 2014

the same as the "Bubble" its only in their minds. The rest of us are on earth and breathing oxygen. You know like real people.

struggle4progress

(117,949 posts)
91. "The brutal takedown" presumes the various responses to Occupy were one-and-the-same action
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:21 AM
Jan 2014

In fact, "the takedown" involves a variety of entirely different people at different times, and the real bottom line may be that a bloodied face here and there, produced by the interaction of a psycho cop with a confused protester, may not teach us much at all

Picture 1: Scott Olsen in Oakland CA c 25 October 2011. Olsen spent four years fighting in Iraq for Bush, which doesn't exactly win him any progressive awards in my book, though after leaving the military, he decided he was an anti-imperialist, and he became active with Occupy San Francisco after moving there. In October, he heard the police had raided Occupy Oakland and went there to confront police. He was injured when a police beanbag struck him in the face. The Oakland mayor subsequently said he planned to demote some police officers and fire others, and Oakland paid out well over $1 million to injured protesters

Picture 2: Kaylee Dedrick, a victim of pepper-spray in NYC c 24 September 2011. Since nothing tells the guys "I am a woman who wants my political views taken seriously" better than topless protest, topless female protesters seem to have been a popular feature of the early Occupy Wall Street movement. And evidently not one to be left behind in a crowd, Kaylee Dedrick seems to have been involved prominently in a topless protest on the streets of NYC earlier in the day on which she was pepper-sprayed. The officer responsible was docked a few vacation days

Picture 3: John Pike pepper spraying UC Davis students c 18 November 2011. John Pike lost his job but collected unemployment

Picture 4: UC Berkeley c 10 November 2011

Picture 5: Brandon Watts, Zuccotti Park, NYC c 17 November 2011. Brandon, at age twenty, had seems to have led a varied life before coming to Occupy Wall Street: he had, for example, lived homeless in the woods a while. Washington Post reporter Elizabeth Flock recalls Brandon's early concern that the protestors had not yet clashed with police enough, though Brandon tried to do his share to take up the slack: he managed to get himself arrested at least six times on a variety of charges, including assault and theft. Before his bloodied face became national news, Brandon had primarily tried to bring attention to the goals of OWS by repeatedly telling media that, thanks to the movement, he had been able to lose his virginity in Zuccotti Park. So OWS helped Brandon get laid, which might have been good for Brandon, or else it teaches us that an amorphous group of unhappy campers may have trouble projecting a consistent national message when not everybody stays on point

brooklynite

(93,626 posts)
92. No, it hasn't...
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:23 AM
Jan 2014

It has been said that claiming Occupy members are, today, being "hunted down like "Terrorists" is hyperbole.

I suppose that would make this OP hyperbole.....

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
96. Not DU... But Go Here:
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:39 AM
Jan 2014
FBI documents just obtained by the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund (PCJF) pursuant to the PCJF’s Freedom of Information Act demands reveal that from its inception, the FBI treated the Occupy movement as a potential criminal and terrorist threat even though the agency acknowledges in documents that organizers explicitly called for peaceful protest and did “not condone the use of violence” at occupy protests.


Link: http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html


 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
100. Ok Fine... You Look At ThOSE Pictures, And Argue Semantics Instead Of Humanity ???
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:51 AM
Jan 2014

I'm betting you're gonna have at least three years of semantics spread out in front of you.

We're just talking politics, right?


Zorra

(27,670 posts)
104. Chicken shit couch monkey Anti Justice Movement corporatist weenbags say that about every group
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:07 AM
Jan 2014

that challenges the injustice of the status quo.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
106. Yep... Good Thing They Weren't Terrorists... They Might Have REALLY Gotten Their Asses Kicked...
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:11 AM
Jan 2014

Fortunately for them... they were just... American Citizens.




U4ikLefty

(4,012 posts)
108. I was involved in Occupy and saw some bad stuff done by the "authorities."
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 01:23 AM
Jan 2014

They like protesters who get a permit (in advance) to march while getting escorted by the cops. Ones who stand quietly outside with a few signs & then leave when the cops tell them to go home.

Occupy didn't put up with that shit. We felt a need to take to the streets...we did it, permit or not.

That threatens their authority & it makes it necessary to put fear into our hearts.

Response to WillyT (Original post)

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
125. "Non-violent" protests are a misnomer. In actuality, they are roughly half as violent.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:09 PM
Jan 2014

The other half of the dynamic operates with the same rulebook regardless.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
129. FBI talked about SHOOTING people with a contractor like MURDER was business-as-usual.
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:33 PM
Jan 2014

Then, again, for all too many in government employ it is business as usual.

From the files of DU: FBI Knew of Plot to Execute Occupy Activists but Did Nothing

FBI Document—“(DELETED)” Plots To Kill Occupy Leaders “If Deemed Necessary”

By Dave Lindorff
June 27, 2013 WhoWhatWhy.org

Would you be shocked to learn that the FBI apparently knew that some organization, perhaps even a law enforcement agency or private security outfit, had contingency plans to assassinate peaceful protestors in a major American city — and did nothing to intervene?

Would you be surprised to learn that this intelligence comes not from a shadowy whistle-blower but from the FBI itself – specifically, from a document obtained from Houston FBI office last December, as part of a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request filed by the Washington, DC-based Partnership for Civil Justice Fund?

To repeat: this comes from the FBI itself. The question, then, is: What did the FBI do about it?

The Plot

Remember the Occupy Movement? The peaceful crowds that camped out in the center of a number of cities in the fall of 2011, calling for some recognition by local, state and federal authorities that our democratic system was out of whack, controlled by corporate interests, and in need of immediate repair?

That movement swept the US beginning in mid-September 2011. When, in early October, the movement came to Houston, Texas, law enforcement officials and the city’s banking and oil industry executives freaked out perhaps even more so than they did in some other cities. The push-back took the form of violent assaults by police on Occupy activists, federal and local surveillance of people seen as organizers, infiltration by police provocateurs—and, as crazy as it sounds, some kind of plot to assassinate the “leaders” of this non-violent and leaderless movement.

CONTINUED...

http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/06/27/fbi-document-deleted-plots-to-kill-occupy-leaders-if-deemed-necessary/

Secret Police. Secret Spying. Secret Laws. Secret Detentions. Secret Executions...Anyone seeing a pattern, here?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
142. Something is very wrong when citizens who protest injustice...
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 10:17 AM
Jan 2014

...are classified "enemy combatants" by secret goverment agencies.

In NAZI Germany, that was what the GESTAPO did. And they rounded up and murdered millions using modern information technology.

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
130. Thanks, WillyT. This is why they brutalized peaceful Occupy protesters:
Fri Jan 17, 2014, 12:40 PM
Jan 2014
As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power.

"We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

"To the people of the world,

"We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.


We want another world, and such a world is possible:

1. The economy must be put to the service of people's welfare, and to support and serve the environment, not private profit. We want a system where labour is appreciated by its social utility, not its financial or commercial profit. Therefore, we demand:

2. To achieve these objectives, we believe that the economy should be run democratically at all levels, from local to global. People must get democratic control over financial institutions, transnational corporations and their lobbies. To this end, we demand:

3. We believe that political systems must be fully democratic. We therefore demand full democratisation of international institutions, and the elimination of the veto power of a few governments. We want a political system which really represent the variety and diversity of our societies:
(MORE AT LINK)
 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
148. May I offer a poem? "Tense, Quiet Interlude:"
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 12:57 PM
Jan 2014

After the torpedo, for a time
The carrier lulled and listed in the troughs.

In the dull glow of back-ups,
And in the ringing silence,
Things didn't seem that desperate

Save for the sweet, thick quaff of gasoline.
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