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Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:39 AM

You want radfem? I'll show you radfem.

When gender wars and woo wars collide.

Disclaimer -- NO, I DO NOT agree with the author. Her views are not my views.

During many of the gender wars there was some debate over what constituted radical feminism. The author I am about to cite describes herself as a radfem and her readers accept the term as well.

I know many of our feminists here would describe themselves as radfems but I think this writer leaps parsecs beyond their description.

Note -- PIV = penis in vagina

intercourse and manufactured female pleasure: politics of love part III

...

What (liberal) men want us to believe is that the options in violence are split between:

#1- to choose not enter in the situation, because you donít fancy it, youíre not that kind of girl.
#2- to choose to stay in the situation because you want more of it.

Both of which have the effect of erasing the reality of violence, since violence only commands submission or requires escape, without which violence doesnít exist.

Back to the topic of sexual pleasure in intercourse that so many women claim to have and which is often the only reason that keeps us into it. As radfems, we always say that whether or not we take pleasure in intercourse, itís irrelevant to the point that PIV is inherently harmful: but thatís partly incorrect, because the pleasure is part of the intended harm too. Hereís why:

#1. The pleasure we experience during intercourse isnít natural, but groomed. Men teach us how to instantaneously associate the fear, pain and/or invasion of the penetration to clitoral stimulation, so we dissociate from it Ė cut it off Ė and think itís pleasurable. Clitoral stimulation may function in the exact same way as dissociation in a situation of sexual violence because it sends dissociative drugs to the brain. Dissociation is a drug, so this reaction to PIV may become an addiction, a rush we crave for like cocaine.

#2. This groomed chemical response to intercourse is harmful because it deliberately diminishes our capacity to identify rape/PIV as violence and get away from it. It confuses us into thinking we wanted it and enjoyed it. In BDSM for instance, it is very common for men to ask women to rub their clitoris during the acts. They know it will confuse their victim, letting her believe she likes being raped and humiliated and that she is a slut after all, exactly what he told her. It will make her feel more ashamed. Itís intentional. The best way for a man to obtain long term sexual subordination from a woman is for him to get her to believe she likes it and wants it, as he would do for pimping, marriage and any form of sexual slavery. It reduces his efforts in having to control her while maximising his use of her.

#3. So this so-called sexual arousal isnít about pleasure at all and was never intended to be: itís about power-over and domination, itís a way for men to obtain obedience.

...


She later goes on to complain that birth control and the sexual revolution were liberal men duping women into giving them more, free sex.

Later in responder to a sympathetic reader she comments --

Hi Wordwoman, nice to see you again! Yes men actually warp our need to be held, loved and feel safe as babies so we project it to men penetrating us and we seek it as it if were the same thing because this is what men tell us it is, and hope that men will be our mother-like loving, protecting saviours, which never happens and itís a lie we need someone to save us.

Men organise our unsafety as girls so they can then capitalise on our need for it by pretending to save us in order to trap us into their heterocage more easily


http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/intercourse-and-manufactured-female-pleasure-politics-of-love-part-iii/

In another thread she laments other women betraying her --

...

Note. Iím writing on colonisation because Iíve been thinking a lot about relationships with non radfem (though already into feminism) women lately and how difficult these relationships are. This is a really important question to me because talking to women about feminism (spinning) and creating bonds with women in order to decolonise collectively from men is really whatís most important and what I believe feminism and liberation is based on. But sometimes I just get so much shit, and it never stops being painful and exhausting. I make friends with women, I introduce them to feminism, Iím full of hope that finally there will be women with whom to discuss and further radical feminism, just BE with them and not in dissonance as it usually is with colonised women, but at some point they end up betraying me, hurting me, they stop and stagnate in the middle of their tracks, may revert even, turn against me, because iím too far ahead and they canít go there yet, because theyíre not ready to meet certain feminist standards, they have a boyfriend who keeps undoing what she just learned, theyíre still not feminist enough to value our friendship and the feminist space weíre giving each other, they have no idea how rare and precious it is, or may still prefer male company. It hurts every time the same.

...

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/24/on-colonisation-by-men-friendships-with-type-2-colonised-women-and-how-we-understand-it-as-radfems/


I'm sorry but I see that as a decidedly unhealthy psychology. It speaks to me of a mind that needs others to submit to its designs and cannot contend with the idea that other people are just that -- other people. As Nietzsche predicted, she has become the very monster she has been fighting.

Now, with this on display, perhaps a bit more care could be taken in bandying about the term "radfem." I won't presume to tell anyone how to describe their self image but there are those who call themselves radfems and then there's this.

And for those that would use radfem as a pejorative to disqualify someone in a debate: You might want to re-think that application of the term because the feminists here don't strike me as being able to even approach what we've seen here.

31 replies, 4495 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply You want radfem? I'll show you radfem. (Original post)
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 OP
LineReply .
TeeYiYi Jan 2014 #1
Demo_Chris Jan 2014 #2
TreasonousBastard Jan 2014 #3
Nitram Jan 2014 #4
The Straight Story Jan 2014 #5
quinnox Jan 2014 #10
HappyMe Jan 2014 #6
quinnox Jan 2014 #7
dawg Jan 2014 #15
quinnox Jan 2014 #19
opiate69 Jan 2014 #23
stevenleser Jan 2014 #8
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #9
redqueen Jan 2014 #12
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #20
Dash87 Jan 2014 #11
geek tragedy Jan 2014 #13
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #14
Agschmid Jan 2014 #16
redqueen Jan 2014 #17
Nitram Jan 2014 #21
redqueen Jan 2014 #27
LittleBlue Jan 2014 #18
rrneck Jan 2014 #22
Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #24
MineralMan Jan 2014 #25
cthulu2016 Jan 2014 #26
Lunacee_2013 Jan 2014 #28
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #29
Zorra Jan 2014 #30
Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #31

Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:44 AM

1. .



TYY

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:25 AM

2. I think this author has serious mental issues. Popcorn time.

 

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:36 AM

3. OK now-- let's get proponents of this version of radfem...

in a room with some good ol' MRA boys and propose that this as one reason we shouldn't eddicate the wimmens.

A large room. With weapons available.

Done right, there wouldn't be anyone left standing-- solves the problem right there.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:39 AM

4. thanks for sharing

I've heard very similar ideas expressed by those who are convinced that racism is the dominant factor in all relations between white people and people of color. Nietzsche's observation is right on the money.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:46 AM

5. If a feminist writes something and you don't agree - you hate women

That is the lesson pushed hard and fast here.

If two womyn don't agree on a point you cannot interject because either way you are wrong and want to oppress womyn (and if you are a one yourself and don't agree you get called a pet and it is said you are wanting a pat on the head from men - and it is accepted on DU).

All men have an agenda. Post a story about a mom who tries to kill her family - you hate women and want everyone else to hate them to (so you should benevolently post stories and treat women different, even though that is bad too).

Everything a man does must be filtered and examined for motive and they are suspects until an exclusive group determines they are safe to be around when posting.

Me? I just call it fun cause it reminds me of my nut job Christian RW friends/relatives where even video games are somehow anti-christian and any tv show that doesn't mention jesus is made by satan.

Being all for equal rights does not mean one is all for some of what others say who also want the same thing. But then, some are purists and only want certain people in their temple if they pass a purity test - alienating allies because they don't believe you are one if you don't read and believe their own bible was written by their god.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:12 AM

10. yep. I would only change it to

 

"if a certain feminist group here writes something, and you dont agree - you hate women"

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:50 AM

6. Good grief!

That is some warped, twisted ....something.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:56 AM

7. The brigade will be along shortly to explain it, and if you disagree, then you must be a misogynist

 

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Response to quinnox (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:55 AM

15. I sincerely doubt that.

I've never seen any evidence that anyone in the "brigade" thinks that way at all.

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Response to dawg (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:11 AM

19. huh, from what I have seen, this stuff would be right up their alley

 

just my opinion

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Response to dawg (Reply #15)


Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:00 AM

8. These are a particular sect of Radical Feminists called Separatist Feminists

And yes, they are whack-jobs, but they do not represent radical feminism. I self-identify as a radical feminist. Obviously, I do not concur with the viewpoints outlined in the OP.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:11 AM

9. And that's pretty much the point I was trying to make.

There is how we self-identify, which we are all free to do, but then there are those who may choose to exploit that identification for themselves or others who may impose it upon people they disagree. Those two latter parties create more discord over labels than they produce actual resolution of serious issues that need to be confronted. That is why the rest of us have to be "smarter than that" and not allow ourselves to drawn into pointless fights that do more harm than good.

If at the end of the day we aren't working for peace and community -- even with those who inevitably disagree (because free people will never agree on all points) -- then we have lost sight of the very thing we claim to be fighting to create or preserve.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:37 AM

12. Your thread title doesn't match the message.

Just saying.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:28 AM

20. My point is

those who would use "radfem" as a pejorative to marginalize and silence feminist voices are misapplying the term. The cite in the OP is so "radical" as to be destructive. Gender equality -- and equality in general -- is not radical or destructive; it is mainstream and sane.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:31 AM

11. This article is hilarious and sad...

This is as funny as the fundies trying to talk about how women who like sex are possessed by Satan, or something like that. I lost it at her attempts to explain basic biology. I can't decide if this is serious or not.

"Fear, pain, and invasion?" Wut?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:40 AM

13. she's a separatist, not a radical feminist.

 

throughout our history, what was considered radical feminism has eventually become mainstream practice and law.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:52 AM

14. Not particularly, thanks anyway. n/t

 

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:57 AM

16. Flamebait OP.

I don't understand why this was even posted...

Are you arguing for a point? Against a point? Or just trying to mock someone else's viewpoint?

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:01 AM

17. I'm trying to imagine a similar thread...

Like, 'you want liberal I'll show you liberal' and then a bunch of stuff from someone whose views aren't the definition of a liberal... posted to... show that liberals aren't like that?

I can't make heads or tails of this.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:29 AM

21. I can imagine...

...posting something like that if a right winger tried to characterize all liberals as radical bomb-throwers. Trying to set the record straight that we shouldn't tar an entire group with the brush of the most radical whack-jobs who claim to be in that group. Just like all Muslims should not be considered terrorists because some extremists are. Does that help, redqueen?

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Response to Nitram (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:34 PM

27. Nope. Just doesn't add up for me.

If I was trying to counter rightwing spin about liberals I wouldn't use that title then post a bunch of random internet ranting from an anarchist.

YMMV obviously.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:08 AM

18. Oh my

 

Sad thing is, I've seen sex negativity pushed on DU before.

The one you posted is completely batshit though.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:37 AM

22. No matter what you believe or what you call it

that ideology has to be applied to the real world. Either it works or it doesn't. Some ideologies may work and are worth a try, others obviously won't. This is one of the latter.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:03 PM

24. That woman needs mental help.

 

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:19 PM

25. I can't see this leading anywhere that might be productive.

So, I'm going to skip any further comment in this thread. It's always possible to present an extreme position for discussion, but rarely does that lead to any agreement among those participating in the discussion. More often, it leads to extreme dissension, and that's almost never productive.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:23 PM

26. This sort of Dworkinism was comonplace in the 1980s

In fairness, it is less common today. But it exists.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:47 PM

28. I'm a feminist,

but I've never bought into the all hetero sex is rape stuff. I've never seen any posters here support it either. Most feminists I know live with men, so that kinda rules it out. Sounds to me like if one of her females friends is even interested in men, she feels betrayed. I don't think the answer to sexism (or racism, homophobia, etc.) is to completely separate yourself from society. Nothing would change if we all did that and just because someone is male (or white or straight) doesn't mean they're the enemy. That being said, I do think women-only spaces are a good thing. Everyone, even politically minded people, needs a break now and again. Plus when you're in a group of like minded people the conversation can get really deep, since you don't have to constantly defend or explain your points.

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Response to Lunacee_2013 (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:53 PM

29. As I've said elsewhere

If someone were to attempt to portray DU feminists as overly radical then we need only point out the contrast between what DU feminists say and what is seen in the OP. Since there is a tremendous contrast the fallacy of trying to marginalize someone as a "radfem" is obviously evident and meritless.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:57 PM

30. Please, everyone, don't judge feminists or feminism by any author who quotes Sheila Jeffreys!

IMO, Sheila Jeffreys has very conservative authoritarian absolutist views and seems to have extreme difficulty considering the possibility that human beings other than herself may genuinely experience existence differently than she does, and that other human being's experience of existence may be just as real and valid as hers.

From my POV, the narrow conservative authoritarian ideas expressed by Sheila Jeffreys and others who share her worldview can give feminists an undeserved bad reputation, and feminists and feminism should not be judged by authoritarian extremists like Sheila Jeffreys.

Despite apparently being lesbian, her POV regarding transgender persons is similar to that of RW religious extremists' views toward the entire LGBT community:

She apparently does not believe that transgenders can be born transgender, just like RW religious extremists do not believe that lesbians can be born lesbian.

And just like the RW religious haters will complain that anyone calling them on their hate toward LGBT is a bigot, Sheila Jeffreys complains that calling her a bigot for her hatred of transgenders makes them bigots.

Bigotry and hate. Same shit, different victim, different day.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:57 PM

31. Mad, but I suspect mostly harmless.

As far as I can see, her views are daft, but - unlike many people with mad political opinions - unlikely to lead to harm to anyone except those who buy into them and try to live by them.

One of the virtues of feminism is that when it goes mad it generally only becomes silly, whereas most other ideologies - even admirable ones - become actively dangerous when taken to lunatic extremes.

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