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Wed Dec 25, 2013, 12:58 PM

 

I'm Really Getting to Respect this Pope

I left the Catholic Church decades ago. I found it to be the most hypocritical organization known to man.

I do not believe in any organized religion and consider myself a Secular Humanist.

When the Catholic Church chose Benedict, a former Nazi, as their Pope, I figured that was the end of the line for them.

I do not deny my Socialist tendencies, much the same as the Socialist Democracies in Western Europe (especially the Scandinavian countries).

Having said that, I really am getting to like this Pope after 9 months. If he can piss off Rush Limbaugh, he has to have some redeeming qualities.

Pope Francis' preaching about peace and the value of workers. Against greed and unbridled Capitalism. His effort to have an inclusive following that prioritizes the teachings of Christ by putting Peace and the Poor well ahead of any Conservative Social Dogma. These are positions I find intriguing.

I am married to a devout Filipina Catholic who preached these same values before Francis became Pope. I said her heart was far different than the Church in Rome. Maybe Rome is finally catching up to her, and all of that is for the better.

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Reply I'm Really Getting to Respect this Pope (Original post)
louis c Dec 2013 OP
shenmue Dec 2013 #1
niyad Dec 2013 #2
louis c Dec 2013 #3
theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #17
niyad Dec 2013 #25
roguevalley Dec 2013 #34
niyad Dec 2013 #36
roguevalley Dec 2013 #37
niyad Dec 2013 #39
theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #40
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #59
sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #50
niyad Dec 2013 #68
theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #70
niyad Dec 2013 #72
Rozlee Dec 2013 #74
Enthusiast Dec 2013 #53
roguevalley Dec 2013 #83
theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #35
niyad Dec 2013 #38
theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #41
YarnAddict Dec 2013 #4
louis c Dec 2013 #5
YarnAddict Dec 2013 #6
louis c Dec 2013 #10
a la izquierda Dec 2013 #54
louis c Dec 2013 #80
niyad Dec 2013 #7
YarnAddict Dec 2013 #8
MNBrewer Dec 2013 #11
spiderpig Dec 2013 #9
TRoN33 Dec 2013 #12
philly_bob Dec 2013 #16
NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #13
Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #14
NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #20
trotsky Dec 2013 #67
pa28 Dec 2013 #15
louis c Dec 2013 #18
NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #21
pa28 Dec 2013 #23
niyad Dec 2013 #42
Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #19
el_bryanto Dec 2013 #22
Kolesar Dec 2013 #55
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #60
el_bryanto Dec 2013 #61
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #63
el_bryanto Dec 2013 #64
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #65
el_bryanto Dec 2013 #66
PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #73
840high Dec 2013 #44
Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #47
tjwash Dec 2013 #24
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #26
louis c Dec 2013 #28
AuntPatsy Dec 2013 #32
louis c Dec 2013 #33
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #58
theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #71
AuntPatsy Dec 2013 #84
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #45
Demo_Chris Dec 2013 #27
louis c Dec 2013 #29
Demo_Chris Dec 2013 #30
louis c Dec 2013 #31
DonCoquixote Dec 2013 #43
louis c Dec 2013 #46
JustAnotherGen Dec 2013 #51
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #62
NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #77
blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #48
calimary Dec 2013 #49
Enthusiast Dec 2013 #52
louis c Dec 2013 #85
Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #56
watoos Dec 2013 #57
TBF Dec 2013 #69
NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #75
AtheistCrusader Dec 2013 #78
AtheistCrusader Dec 2013 #76
louis c Dec 2013 #79
moondust Dec 2013 #81
niyad Dec 2013 #82

Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:03 PM

1. That says it well

I think the current Pope is doing a great job so far.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:06 PM

2. when he addresses the status of women in this patriarchal organization, I will think slightly better

of him. when he actually DOES something about it, and about the pedophile priests ("some have fallen short of their commitments" does NOT qualify), then I will think slightly better of him. and when he opens the church's deep pockets to actually aid the poor, as opposed to just saying we should treat them better, then I will think slightly better of him.

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Response to niyad (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:09 PM

3. I agree.

 

He's not there yet. But it's only 9 months and he has at least said the right things.

I am hoping that this is a foreshadowing of a more open, liberal agenda by the Catholic Church.

Actions do speak louder than words.

But words do matter.

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Response to niyad (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 03:40 PM

17. Well, actually he has addressed the status of women in the church

Not that many on DU appear to give a damn.

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/lets_face_it_pope_francis_still_aint_that_great_20130921?ln

In April, Francis reaffirmed his predecessor’s censure of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an umbrella organization that represents 80 percent of Catholic nuns in the United States. These nuns were penalized by the Vatican, and continue to be penalized, for focusing on poverty instead of stoking moral panic about the existence of gay people or sexually active teenagers — exactly the kind of community-centered work that Francis just declared sorely missing from the church.
In the report admonishing the sisters, and stripping them of the independent authority to develop their own charter and conduct their own business, the Vatican said they were undermining “issues of crucial importance to the life of Church and society, such as the Church’s Biblical view of family life and human sexuality” and promoting “radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”
Francis’ censure places these women under the full authority of the Vatican and its “program of reform,” which includes the appointment of three male bishops to manage the rewriting of the nuns’ conference statutes, review its community-based programs and otherwise ensure the group “properly” follows Catholic teaching.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 04:41 PM

25. not enough, not nearly enough. women are still non-citizens as far as the church--no autonomy,

no reproductive rights, no priesthood. AND, since the catholic church owns and runs so many hospitals, in many cases being the only game in town, even non-catholic women are screwed when it comes to a full range of health care.

and, he has not even mentioned, much less offered compensation to, the victims of the magdalene laundries. nor has he addressed the witch burnings.

so, tell me again about how this pope is addressing the secondary status of women.

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Response to niyad (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:15 PM

34. imagine you are given the reins of a continent going forward on techtonic

plates corroded by shit for decades. Then imagine you want to steer it in another direction, a course correction back to what it should have been all along. Imagine the time and effort that will take.

You want it yesterday. Most of us do. In practice, that isn't going to happen. That he tries and has shifted a great deal is commendable. Give him credit where its due and give him time to steer a monolith back into the correct path.

If you can't acknowledge what he's accomplished so far against great odds, then its sad to me somehow. I know how HUGE organizations move. They are ingrained and self protecting. He will make the changes. Give him time.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:25 PM

36. spare me. he has talked about some things that are important--but he hasn't had time to mention

HALF the population of the faithful? REALLY? and we are supposed to simply accept that "it takes time". once again, WOMEN are not important enough to take first, or second, or third place in consciousness.

this is, in fact, the same sort of argument we heard during and after the civil war-- women had to take second place to the end of slavery. women have to wait for. blah, blah, blah. it is always the same.

give him time??? tell me, just how long are WOMEN supposed to wait for this tectonic change? please, give us your expert opinion on this HUGE organization in which women do not matter. a month, a year? a decade? a century?

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Response to niyad (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:27 PM

37. I want it too. I am old. But I know how organizations work. You and I q

will have to agree to disagree. Since no one operates or ever will on your time table I expect you to experience a lot of disappointment. Take care.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:31 PM

39. I am old, too. I have been waiting for this HUGE organization to recognize women as actual,

living people with real rights since I got excommunicated decades ago. so, as I said, spare me your explanations for why women are secondary.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:34 PM

40. I think it's entirely reasonable to talk timetables

When it comes to oppression, whether it be on the basis of race, gender or sexual orientation, I think it's entirely reasonable to DEMAND, whether it be from governments or those organizations that use their resources and power to influence governments, just when and how the institutional bigotry will stop.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 08:44 AM

59. So your argument is the RCC is too big to fail, too large to bother with justice or

 

to drop the bigotry? 'Large companies must be given decades to stop beating and raping and libeling innocents, it's how organizations work!'

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Response to niyad (Reply #36)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 03:35 AM

50. I'm a woman and I'm not waiting for anything. Any Catholic woman, and there are

millions of them, doesn't have to wait either. All they have to do is leave the Church. You speak as if milions of women are being held captive or something. There is NO LAW, there are NO CONSEQUENCES for women if the choose to leave the Church. Many have and nothing happened to them.

So what is this ''how long are WOMEN supposed to wait for this techtonic change'? You must know that no one has to be a Catholic and if they are not, why do they care about what some church members are doing?

And if you don't think that the poor are not important, then fine, that is your opinion.

.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:04 AM

68. nice try at deflection. pointing out that he has said nothing about the church's views on women

means I don't care about the poor??? wow. as if people are not capable of caring for more than one thing at a time, especially considering how many women are in poverty.

let me know when he actually DOES something about poverty, like opening the church's deep pockets, okay.

and tell the women who are not catholic whose only health care is the catholic hospital that they have the choice to just go without.

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Response to niyad (Reply #68)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:31 AM

70. It's the current mantra, niyad

That is, if you care about fighting homophobia and misogyny, you must not care about the poor. Since some 70% of the world's poor are women and children, one might think that issues regarding equality for women and girls, access to contraception, abortion rights et al would be critical with regard to any honest war on poverty. So would access to condoms, which would help to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS and both the misery and poverty suffered among millions around the globe, especially in the poorest nations.
Some folks have a remarkable talent for compartmentalization and can discuss poverty without any recognition of how misogyny and homophobia are among the root causes of this evil. I can't and I know you can't, because to excise the critical role bigotry plays in poverty and misery is, to my mind, at the very least disingenuous.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Reply #70)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:37 AM

72. one would think that what you said is perfectly obvious, but not, apparently, to some. one does

wonder why they fight so desperately to keep those conversations separate and unequal.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:54 AM

74. How can you say that? Church policy doesn't just affect its members.

Church politics reverberates across the country and the world. It controls governments and institutions in many countries. At least Pope Francis doesn't have anything against using condoms for protection against STD's and AIDS. How many people died in undeveloped countries and Africa because of the Church lobbying strenuously against reproductive choice and the use of condoms for safe sex? Catholics may leave the Church, but its influence is seen in places such as India, where Mother Theresa militantly stood against birth control, stating that overpopulation was a gift from God, and that starving hungry children were also a gift to let us redeem our souls. The Church doesn't operate in a vacuum. It's not an island unto itself. Decades after I've left it, its policies still affect my life and that of my daughters and granddaughters with their stances on reproductive choice and health care.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #34)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 06:03 AM

53. Plate tectonics is an apt analogy.

Well done.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 28, 2013, 06:34 PM

83. thank you, honey. I am old enough to remember how this

works. Hugs and Happy new year.

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Response to niyad (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:20 PM

35. I think you misunderstood my position

I actually support you, and was providing an example of just how the church (including Francis) continues to oppress women.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:28 PM

38. my apologies, you are absolutely correct. I did not check it out the link as I should.

being told, again, and again, and again, that women should be patient, that he cannot change everything overnight, the usual blah, blah, blah, on what is supposed to be a progressive board, is sickening.

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Response to niyad (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:35 PM

41. No problem. I understand the frustration.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:10 PM

4. "Former Nazi"

 

Pope Benedict was conscripted into the Hitler Youth as a 14-year old. In other words, he didn't have a choice. His family was actually anti-Nazi, and he lost a cousin with Down Syndrome to the real Nazis' eugenics program.

Regardless of how you feel about his views on things, I think it's really unfair to tag him with the Nazi label for something that was pretty much beyond his control.

By the way, I like this Pope, too! Maybe he will bring about some real economic justice in the world!

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Response to YarnAddict (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:18 PM

5. We all have a choice

 

and if he was "chosen by Christ from birth" as the doctrine implies; if Retzinger was to be the infallible voice of God himself on Earth; If he was chosen by a supreme, all knowing Deity, I would think manning an anti-aircraft gun at 16 years old for the anti-christ would be a disqualifying factor.

Just a thought.

but in fact, he is and always will be an ex-Nazi.

I bet there were a lot of 16 year olds in Germany who didn't join the club. And if God knew that one day Retzinger was to be the Vector of His Church, he might have told him in some vision not to join.

Again, just a thought.

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Response to louis c (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:24 PM

6. Because of his age at the time

 

I'm willing to cut him some slack, especially since he had probably known people who had disappeared for defying the regime.

Just out of curiosity, did you always link Senator Byrd with his Klan past? Considering that was something he did as an adult I think that would be much more appropriate.

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Response to YarnAddict (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 02:38 PM

10. It certainly would have disqualified Byrd

 

from being the head of the NAACP.

You see, according to the Catholic Church, Christ was, well, Christ.

and, according to everyone else, Hitler was, well, an anti-Christ.

I don't want to continue to get into the weeds with this. I don't think Rentziger's Nazi connection would have kept him out of a political position, but I do think it disqualifies him from being the Pope.

The Pope is some sort of mythical position with a direct connection to the Almighty. Know all, omnipresent, no beginning, no end, knows the future and all that jazz type of supernatural being.

He (God himself) might have thought that his future spokesperson should have taken a more heroic position during WWII other than joining the Hitler Youth and manning an anti-aircraft gun for the Nazi regime. After all, John Paul II did have the more heroic, historical position on similar subjects.

Just a thought.

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Response to louis c (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 06:57 AM

54. Yes. We do have choices.

Francis chose to remain silent as the Argentine military junta tortured, raped, and murdered thousands of its citizens.
Archbishop Oscar Romero didn't. Countless parish priests and nuns didn't all over Latin America.
His acceptance of Liberation Theology is 40 years too late.

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Response to a la izquierda (Reply #54)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 07:41 PM

80. There's a differnce between silence and support.

 

I refuse to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

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Response to YarnAddict (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:25 PM

7. since you object to "former nazi", how about we call him what we all know him to be--a pedophile

protector and enabler.

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Response to niyad (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:28 PM

8. That's actually much more accurate n/t

 

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Response to YarnAddict (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 02:56 PM

11. True, he continued in his nazistic tendencies well into his adulthood

i.e., even now is a full-fledged fascist. He was the Chief Inquisitor, after all.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:33 PM

9. I agree entirely with your post.

I'm non-religious, but I'm amazed that there's a Pope in my lifetime that actually appears to walk the walk. Even selecting his papal name (animal lover here). Going out anonymously at night to comfort the homeless. Driving himself in an '84 Renault. Cooking his own meals. No Prada shoes for this guy.

How did he get elected, anyway? Especially following Benny the Rat?

Team Pope Francis.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 02:59 PM

12. Louis C, from Catholic to Catholic, I once learned that...

 

We really didn't left Catholic church. They left us. They left us when they chose to flaunt the wealth, accepting free money from governments even if they took the money from the poor's over-generous donations. My dad gave $20-40-50 per Sundays yet he is very poor.

Their blood-heavy history also left us when their hypocritical former Popes chose not to apologize for it (Francis haven't... Yet) and continue to preach the value of Christianity that far-right has enjoyed for the centuries until now.

Pope Francis are beginning to bring Catholic church back to their former devotes. I'm not starting to go back to churches but I can appreciate Francis' views of real Christian that Republicans doesn't seem to appreciate. Anything Republicans doesn't like are good for me.

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Response to TRoN33 (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 03:34 PM

16. TRoN, you're right.

A friend who's a former seminarian told me that the church made a marketing decision to abandon the U.S. and concentrate on Latin America and Africa.

American Catholics were difficult to control. (That's an understatement!)

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 03:12 PM

13. The last pope, the "ex nazi", preached the SAME stuff about the poor and peace and capitalism.

This pope believes I am disordered and am going to hell, just like the others.

He is no different than the others, other than in photo-ops.

Of course he doesn't focus on his bigoted beliefs. He was chosen to change the Church's image not its actual policies. Talking about his social positions would ruin that. He hasn't changed one single church teaching.

We all criticized the Republicans for talking about needing to change their image and not actually changing their policies. Yet this pope does the same thing and people get doey-eyed and go gaga.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 03:23 PM

14. How many heard him do it?

In a way it's kind of like that "If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there..." type thing. The last pope didn't do what needed to be done to have that message rise above the din. Call it theatrics, or call it "walking the walk", or something in between, but this time the message about the poor is actually being heard. That much is good. In other ways little if anything has yet changed.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 03:55 PM

20. Nothing has changed.

It's the same message, the same stuff as the last one. And the one before that.

People hear what they hear because of the media.

Did you think John McCain a "maverick", an "independent thinker" because that's what the media reported?

This pope does photo-ops, and yet he hasn't done a SINGLE substantive thing to change things in the real world. He is a charlatan and a fraud. He wants us to gloss over his hateful bigotry, but I and others refuse to do so.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:03 AM

67. Yes, this is it precisely.

At this point what this pope has done is indistinguishable from a pure PR campaign. And given the 2000 year history of harm his church has, what exactly has it done to earn the benefit of the doubt?

You know what, the scary part is, I've had this feeling before. This feeling of "How can anyone fall for this shit?". You know when that was? Right after 9/11 and the outpouring of support for Dubya. 90% approval! The difference then was that at least I could retreat to DU for an oasis of sanity - no one was fooled here.

Not so for the new pope. I fear people are being played again, and once again I'm in the 10% that still understands what's really going on.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 03:33 PM

15. The dumping of Cardinal Raymond Burke and the Bishop of Bling in Germany warmed my heart.

Despite his gentle manner I think Pope Francis is a bit of a badass.



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Response to pa28 (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 03:40 PM

18. Point Well Taken

 

thanks for that

the Nazi Pope only went after the liberal clergy.

that's a big difference.

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Response to louis c (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 04:13 PM

23. Indeed, Francis is backing up his words with action by cleaning up the rot.

Purging corruption in the church is big job and it can't be done overnight. He's started the job.

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Response to pa28 (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:41 PM

42. referring to the pedophile priests as "some fell short of their commitment" is NOT "cleaning up

the rot"

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 03:44 PM

19. So he talks about ONE thing people here agree with him about and suddenly he's Jesus.

 

Ffs.

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 04:00 PM

22. Is there anything between despising him and proclaiming him Jesus in your mind? nt

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 07:13 AM

55. We don't do "nuance" on this forum

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 08:51 AM

60. How about some simple honesty? Francis is and has been for years a stridenly anti

 

gay activist in politics and in his Chruch. People here claim he is 'inclusive' and 'accepting' and 'socially liberal' when he is in fact the world's leading anti gay crusader. His Church is the largest religious group in Uganda, which just passed horrific anti gay laws, Francis and his following have been dead silent about it, they did not try to stop this criminal injustice, they did not so much as try. They supported it.
So if the Francis Fan Club would simply be honest and say 'yes, he is an anti gay warrior bigot but we don't care because he mutters about the poor' that would be fine. They need to own who it is they are promoting, rather than engage in mendacious rewrites of his internationally known anti gay rants.
So if the 'faithful' could be honest for two minutes as their 'faith' tells them to be always, constantly and unerringly, we'd be better off. Liars are just liars. Liars who lie to cover for a homophobe are liars with a nasty agenda.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #60)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 08:57 AM

61. OK how about this; I agree with Pope Francis when he talks about poverty and the causes of it

I agree with his attempts to change the tone of the Catholic Church, but I disagree with him when he talks about Homosexuality or Abortion.

By the way that last line, who are the "liars who lie to cover for a homophobe?" Are you talking about people here at DU?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #61)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 09:07 AM

63. People often claim Francis is 'pro gay, inclusive' and that's a lie. They are liars.

 

It is doubley offensive, bryant, that you exploit poverty issues to excuse bigotry. You imply with great callousness that those of us who do not accept sexism and homophobia and do not care about the poor. It is mean, insipid and dishonest.
Those of you who promote this bigoted man never say 'except for his bigotry' you guys insist that he is 'pro gay'.
None of you ask why he is silent about Uganda, where RCC is the largest religion. They just passed a law to put gay people in jail for life. So those of you who claim he is a good man need to explain that shit.
Honesty. People should be honest. They should not lie to cover for a homophobe. They should instead inform themselves, learn about what Francis has said in the past, read the context for his PR releases currently and either stop lying for him or lie with full will. Remaining ignorant of the truth so one can keep repeating falsehoods is not wise.
Yes, the richest religious groups in America could prove they care about the poor with great ease, they are well funded, but instead they spend on opposing gay rights and mostly just chat about 'the poor' as a facade for their socially atavistic agendas.
"There are hungry among us, let us fund Prop 8!"

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #63)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 09:10 AM

64. So to be very clear - you are calling me a liar, right?

At any rate I totally disagree that I exploit poverty issues to excuse bigotry.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 09:21 AM

65. I did not call you a liar. If I wanted to, I would simply do so. I do not need you

 

to speak for me. Those who claim Francis is 'pro gay' or 'progressive on social issues' are liars. He's anti gay, the record shows this again and again.
I note you did not so much as address the situation in Uganda when I mentioned it, that's a hard one for the Francis Fans. His silence. Your silence. It speaks volumes, loudly and clearly.
I think most of the Francis talk is a way for folks to be anti gay while hiding behind 'we care for the poor'. I note that Francis and his followers have not really DONE anything but chat about 'the poor' as cover for vicious bigotry. They have not, in fact, made new programs nor started building homes nor has Francis started selling all he owns to give to the poor as Jesus commanded. They say 'Think of the poor. Now listen to my rant about homosexuals!'
In addition, Jesus commanded that our charitiy be done so secretly that the left hand does not know what the right hand has given. So building a platform of public blather about the poor is kind of sort of forbidden by Jesus, to say 'I am allowed to hate minorities because I help the poor' is exploiting the poor as protection when Jesus said one is not even supposed to mention what we do for others.
'WE love the poor, YOU only care about your rights' is a wallowing in selfish and heretical bullshit.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 09:29 AM

66. Your bullying tactics really haven't succeeded in turning DU around on Pope Francis have they?

People still post about him in a positive light and those posts get more agreements than condemnations. Really it's just you and a few anti-catholic cranks fighting the good fight and losing. Why is that? Why do you think that so many DUers don't agree with your take on the Pope?

When you say "I think most of the Francis talk is a way for folks to be anti gay while hiding behind 'we care for the poor'." are you specifically talking about DU? Or just in general?

The situation in Uganda is terrible, and I wish Pope Francis would clarify the Church's position there, specifically I wish he would condemn what's going on.

Bryant

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:44 AM

73. This portion of this piece really nailed it for me:

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/27/sorry_pope_francis_reproductive_justice_and_lgbtq_rights_are_economic_issues_too/

"But as the pope’s explicit and specific critique of capitalism’s excesses shows, it is incredibly necessary to talk about these things. Because widespread discrimination against LGBTQ people — which people like Rick Santorum and others defend as a matter of “faith” — results in widespread violence, disproportionate income inequality, job discrimination and other injustices that the pope nominally opposes.

It’s great that the pope thinks, for example, that American Catholics should be less judgmental when it comes to their gay neighbors, but he also needs to take a position endorsing full legal equality, pay equity and other basic rights for all LGTBQ people. Because LGBTQ people don’t need Catholics to be their friends, they need them to stop actively challenging their rights in state legislatures and at the federal level."

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 08:17 PM

44. I still love this Pope.

 

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Response to 840high (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 08:40 PM

47. Good for you.

 

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 04:19 PM

24. He is off to a good start...

...however, talk is cheap. Time will tell if it is just empty rhetoric or not.

I for one would like to see the Vatican open up all of the abuse files, and call off all of the vicious church lawyers and therapists who completely denigrate and play the "victim-as-abuser" game with the lives of the RCC abuse survivors. They also need to stop this latest rash of fake bankruptcies that are designed to cheat victims out of court settlements, while simultaneously scapegoating them for church closings.

But - I like the direction this new Pope is starting to lean towards.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 04:49 PM

26. Let me know when he actually does something (like elevating your wife to human status).

 

Until then, he's just the next con-man in a long line of con-men conducting a spectacle to distract the marks from the hand in their pocket. He's definitely much more appealing that that Nazi fuck he replaced, but so far I'm just hearing a lot of happy talk.

And since you've admitted to not being Catholic, you might not be aware that the Pope has real power and can indeed do just about anything he wants to.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:00 PM

28. 9 months

 

Let's reserve judgment on the guy.

As you can tell from my OP, I just have gotten to the point that I respect the man. For me and the way I have felt about the Church, that's quite a bit of movement. But in the entire scope of things, everyone should start with respect. Yet, my opinion of the Catholic Church has always been outright disdain, including all the Popes. This is major movement for me, but don't think for a minute that I am still not skeptical.

Francis got me to respect the Pope, not the Church. Not yet.

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Response to louis c (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:12 PM

32. It's nice I guess that you admire someone but I think I'll save my admiration

For someone's actions over mere words. stating the obvious of what hundreds if not thousands of others have for many many years spoke of just does not quite give me the same feelings of admiration, my personal thoughts of this newest self styled man of God is that he is intelligent enough to note that church attendees for the Catholic Church are falling way behind other religions and is well aware that the Republicans in the great ole USA have never considered Catholics the main stream way to what they believe to be Heavens Gates.

Of course it is easy to realize why, those lazy Irishman as well as those dark skinned Spanish speaking people are nine times out of ten of the Catholic persuasion, sometimes the more things "appear" to change the more it is highlighted how that change is merely just an illusion ....


Merry Christmas

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Response to AuntPatsy (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:14 PM

33. How is it that I say "respect" and you hear "admire"?

 

words do matter.

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Response to louis c (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 08:39 AM

58. The same way Francis says this about marriage equality:

 


“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

And you and others shout 'I respect him for being supportive of gay rights'. He calls my family a destructive pretension against the plan of God, a machination of the Father of Lies'. You and others who 'respect but do not admire' this man seem to hear something other than the steaming vigorous hate in his words.


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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #58)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:35 AM

71. In the meanwhile...

As we pull back the curtain on the photo ops and while pro-choice women are being beaten on the streets of Spain...

USCCB CHAIRMEN PRAISE INTRODUCTION OF THE ‘MARRIAGE AND RELIGIOUS FREEDOM ACT’ IN THE SENATE

December 12, 2013
Non-discrimination Act necessary because of intolerance
Those who affirm that marriage is one man and one woman need protection
House and Senate urged to pass Act

WASHINGTON—Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco, chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Subcommittee for the Promotion and Defense of Marriage, and Archbishop William Lori of Baltimore, chairman of the Ad Hoc Committee for Religious Liberty, expressed strong support for the Marriage and Religious Freedom Act (S. 1808) introduced today in the U.S. Senate by Senator Mike Lee. Both archbishops previously endorsed the companion Marriage and Religious Freedom Act introduced by Rep. Raúl Labrador in the U.S. House of Representatives on September 19, 2013.

“The fact that this very important non-discrimination bill has now been introduced in the Senate is quite encouraging,” said Archbishop Cordileone. “As with the House bill, the Marriage and Religious Freedom Act introduced in the Senate would prohibit the federal government from discriminating against religious believers who hold to the timeless truth that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. This Act, therefore, provides necessary protections. Increasingly, state laws are being used to target individuals and organizations for discrimination simply because they act on their belief that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Such prejudice must not be allowed to spread to the federal government.”

Archbishop Lori said, “I urge both the House and the Senate to pass the Marriage and Religious Freedom Act. We are witnessing a growing climate of intolerance against individuals and organizations who believe that marriage is the union of one man and one woman, with a ‘comply or else’ attitude being advanced by those who favor marriage redefinition in law. In this coercive climate, the Marriage and Religious Freedom Act is an important step in preserving religious liberties at the federal level.”

Archbishop Lori added, “Among the many protections in this bill, the federal government would not be able to deny individuals and organizations a grant, contract, or employment because of their religious belief that marriage is the union of one man and one woman.”


USCCB SUBCOMMITTEE CHAIR RESPONDS TO RECENT COURT DECISIONS

December 23, 2013
WASHINGTON—Responding to the decision by the New Mexico Supreme Court to redefine marriage and the decision of the U.S. District Court in Utah declaring Utah's marriage amendment unconstitutional, Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone said, "In a visit to the United States of America, Pope John Paul II –who will be canonized by Pope Francis– declared, 'Vast sectors of society are confused about what is right and what is wrong, and are at the mercy of those with the power to "create" opinion and impose it on others.' Both the New Mexico Supreme Court and the Federal Court in Utah imposed a wrong decision about the meaning of marriage onto the people of their respective states."
The Archbishop further said, "We must start off with the right question. It is not, 'Is there a government interest in not recognizing alternative types of relationships as marriage?', but rather, 'Is there a public interest in societal recognition and regulation of the only kind of relationship that brings children into the world?' Every human society in history has recognized that there is. By losing sight of this fundamental reality, confusion and error triumph."
Archbishop Cordileone of San Francisco is the chairman of U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' Subcommittee for the Promotion and Defense of Marriage.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Reply #71)

Mon Dec 30, 2013, 04:42 PM

84. I see you got no responses from those fawning, sad but no surprise to those who are watching..

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Response to louis c (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 08:26 PM

45. I agree and am doing just that.

 

I have absolutely no respect for the institution he leads, as far as I'm concerned it is just about the worst of a horrible lot, but he, as you pointed out, is talking a good game.

Still, he is not a President or Prime Minister, he is the absolute leader of the church and has the power to make substantial change at any time as fast as he wishes.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:00 PM

27. He believes CHILD RAPISTS make better priests than women or gays.

 

And he continues to provide sanctuary to tens of thousands of his child rapist brothers. So really, why are we talking about this monster here on DU?

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:02 PM

29. I just noticed that you and I have the same, exact number of posts (until this one).

 

We should play that lottery number.

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Response to louis c (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:03 PM

30. Not any more! HAHAHAHAH!!!!

 

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 05:04 PM

31. Now we do

 

but I'm stopping this time.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 07:57 PM

43. Saying the right things may matter some but.

The problem is that Francis only came about because Benedict ran the church into the reef. Granted, a lot of what Benedict did was started by John Paul II, but some people never quite get red the riot act they deserve because of Charisma and Luck (which JP had in spades.) However, as we see here with our president, it is not enough to say the right things and do safe, slow measures when the ship is already on fire and sinking! Yes, there are a chorus of idiots who see nothign wrong, and will shriek like mandrakes when you do anything remotely not hard right, but when everythign is in flames, you do not need buckets, you need high-pressure firehoses.

Francis was made to wash the taste of Benedict out of poeple's mouths, and also to placate Latin America, aka Rome's breadbasket. However, the powers that be know that Francis has best, a few years, then they can roll in a hard right SOB. If Francis wants to live up to hsio words, he has to change somethign RIGHT NOW. Fortunately, unlike Barack Obama, the pope CAN be a dictator, and if they oppose him, they know they will slit their own throat by destroying the image of an infallible pope.

Now, is he goign to undo hundreds of years in one? No, but on women;'s issues, he has a clear way to make changes, namely because the Episcopals did it for him. The Episcopals have a simialr structure to the Catholics, but they have had married priests, and WOMAN priests. He can easily have a talk with Canterbury, and based on said research, find letting husbands and wives into the clergy will not reduce the world to ashes. Now, I realize that is not a complete list by a long shot; birth control and abortion do need to be allowed in, but I gave an example of a step that would indeed do something meaningful, and help wear away the wall of sexism. Once women becaome the vicars and bishops, the monster of sexism will start bleeding to death.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 08:33 PM

46. I'm willing to give Francis more than 9 months before forming my final opinion

 

As I said, I just "respect" this Pope.

I was always of the mind-set that the Catholic Church was the enemy of mankind.

Francis has allowed me to take a new look at them as an entity to see if his actions match his words and the Church will follow his lead, if he does.

For me to give them a another chance to convince me is a huge leap for them.

I love the teachings of "Jesus, the philosopher" without all the super-natural mumbo-jumbo. Peace, help the poor, humility, turn the other cheek, judge no lest ye' be judged, love thy neighbor, do unto others, etc. etc. I can buy into that. It's the holier than thou attitude and the perversion of those beliefs that pisses me off. I don't expect Francis to undo centuries of hypocrisy, but I'll give him credit if he takes at least a step in the right direction.

Francis seems a little different from the rest (and centuries of "the rest". I'm willing to give him a shot. And that from a Secular Humanist.

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Response to louis c (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 04:19 AM

51. I - an outsider - never a Catholic

Never will be Catholic - but i respect him too. Granted I attended a Catholic University and high school - but as a non trinitarian Protestant I respect this man. And as UU - even prior to that . . . I don't believe the Catholic Church or any Church should enter the realm of US politics and policy.

So in terms of social justice - I hope he continues down the path that he is on. He has a long hard row to hoe. But even that "hope" is not my place to have. That's the place of Roman Catholics.

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Response to louis c (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 08:57 AM

62. Francis shits daily on the teachings of Jesus.

 

Jesus "Call no man father. Never pray in public like hypocrites, never reciet rote prayers"
Francis "Call me Father, pray with me en mass, on TV, let's repeat that one we say over and over about Mary!"

Jesus on gay people "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Francis on gay people "an assualt on God's plan coming from the author o lies"

Jesus: "Sell all you have and give it to the poor to follow me."
Francis: "I have a private jet, we are billionaires, my Church is the largest holder of real estate in Manhattan. Oh, yeah, think of the poor!"

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #62)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 12:52 PM

77. But he sleeps in a smaller bedroom!

And he kisses babies!

Who cares if he thinks we gays are "inherently disordered" and that us wanting to have families is an evil Satanic plot?

Funny how when it's a politician who has to bargain and negotiate and worry about getting votes, we are supposed to "hold their feet to the fire". But when it's an ABSOLUTE FREAKIN MONARCH whose very word is law the moment he speaks it, we're supposed to just be patient and accept the few crumbs thrown our way.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 11:58 PM

48. PR/damage control. The RCC does not change.

 

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 02:37 AM

49. Me too. He's mighty refreshing after Benny the Rat, that's for sure!!!

And anybody who pisses off the GOP and f(r)iends is okay by me!

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 06:01 AM

52. Recommended 1000X and kicked too.

I'm with you, louis c.

History clearly illustrates that The Church is not always right.

When the church is right and just the people will recognize it.

Sorry if that steps on any ecumenical toes but that's the way it is.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 30, 2013, 06:18 PM

85. Thanks (NT)

 

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 08:22 AM

56. Do you respect the Long Silence of your Francis and his Church on Ugandan anti

 

gay laws? Uganda's largest religion is RCC, Uganda just passed laws to put gay people in jail for life for being gay. Silence = Death. Francis, international anti gay bully, has seen all that has happend in Uganda and met it with silence, same as WW2 era RCC leaders silently played along with the Nazis 'we see nothing, we say nothing'. 43% of Uganda follows Francis the Pope. Silence = Death. In this case YOUR silence and that of your Church will cause the death of others.

I want to be clear that I do not respect those of you who hold the hands of genocidal maniacs and promote leaders who hate minority groups. Francis calls my family a product of satan. That's what you are bragging about. I find it revolting.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 08:35 AM

57. Wow, a lot of Pope Francis bashing here,

 

Pope Francis is changing the narrative to income inequality, he is giving a voice to the poor that has been sadly missing, to say that what he is doing is window dressing is wrong. Republicans control the M$M, they control the narrative, pope Francis is breaking that control. So by progressives bashing this pope we are helping people like Rush Limbaugh do what they do best when faced with facts, destroy the messenger if you can't destroy the message.

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Response to watoos (Reply #57)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:17 AM

69. I'll take what I can get - his economic comments

are very welcome. Like others I want to see movement on: (1) acknowledgment that women are people & can be leaders and (2) pedophilia will not be tolerated in any shape or form & there will be consequences.

If he can say something about those 2 things on top of his comments about economic equality I'd be willing to declare him a Saint.

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Response to watoos (Reply #57)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 12:44 PM

75. The pope is no progressive. Unless you consider anti-gay and anti-women to be "progressive".

I sure don't.

There are many ACTUAL progressives who are not only right on both economic AND social issues, but who are actually in positions to effect real changes. Such as: Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, to name two. Not to mention countless others all over the world.

This pope is a charlatan. A fraud. He is a con-man hired to pull the wool over people's eyes to change the image of the church without actually changing any policies. Much like Republicans these days talking about rehabilitating their image and yet keep the same damn policies.

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Response to watoos (Reply #57)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 12:54 PM

78. And this is different from the former pope how?

Ratzinger did it. John Paul did it, on similar terms to Francis.

The only difference is that we are now used to seeing Ratzinger prance around in his shiny red shoes and sit on a literally gold chair, etc. Francis has gone back to the less-ostentatious trappings of Paul, in most things. He goes a little further in some places, living in an apartment, driving his own car, etc. Not that the Vatican has liberated the un-used assets to help the poor with the proceeds, all that stuff is still possessed, and maintained.

Francis's behavior is very much in line with Paul, is it not?

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 12:52 PM

76. So you left the church under Pope John Paul. Name one material issue in which this pope is different

, please. I am genuinely curious what, if anything, you can identify.

Ratzinger was hard right, I agree. Francis appears to be a direct continuation of PJP.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #76)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 07:23 PM

79. I left the Church in 1968

 

and I don't remember who the Pope was then.

I never said that I left because of any particular Pope, but because the Church was "the most hypocritical organization known to man". I also said I left the church "decades (plural) ago". Actually it was 1968, when I was sixteen years old. It turns out that it was 4 and a half decades ago (wow, how time does fly). Pope Paul VI was Pope (I just had to look that up).

Maybe my respect for Jesuits came from how the Berrigan Brothers protested the Viet-Nam War, now that I examine my formative years.

I was a radical then, just cutting my non-conformist teeth. I questioned everything.

Now I'm 61 and I still don't have the answers.

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Response to louis c (Original post)

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 08:22 PM

81. He's pretty revolutionary.

Anybody who has been in the Vatican and cathedrals of Italy knows that the Catholic Church has spent centuries amassing great wealth and power. This pope's focus to date on all that "isn't" gold and powerful is a pretty big deal. It will be interesting to see how traditional "wealth-and-power" Catholics, particularly in Italy, react to it in the months and years ahead.

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