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Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:11 PM

 

Don't Want To Be Insensitive To A Fellow Duer's Personal Story... But...

Does anybody else here find it ironic that a child of adoption would hope against abortion ???

Help me out here... the mother in this case DID NOT have an abortion.

Something the "pro-lifers" have been advocating for... for decades.

How does a woman win here ???


157 replies, 10356 views

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Reply Don't Want To Be Insensitive To A Fellow Duer's Personal Story... But... (Original post)
WillyT Nov 2013 OP
Th1onein Nov 2013 #1
WillyT Nov 2013 #2
Th1onein Nov 2013 #11
Whisp Nov 2013 #22
Th1onein Nov 2013 #25
boston bean Nov 2013 #27
JimDandy Nov 2013 #80
idwiyo Nov 2013 #92
ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #68
boston bean Nov 2013 #23
Th1onein Nov 2013 #24
boston bean Nov 2013 #26
Th1onein Nov 2013 #31
boston bean Nov 2013 #32
Th1onein Nov 2013 #40
boston bean Nov 2013 #42
Th1onein Nov 2013 #46
boston bean Nov 2013 #49
uppityperson Nov 2013 #55
wercal Nov 2013 #107
PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #77
msanthrope Nov 2013 #85
HERVEPA Nov 2013 #153
tammywammy Nov 2013 #34
Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #104
riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #141
Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #41
Pab Sungenis Nov 2013 #128
Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #140
Pab Sungenis Nov 2013 #142
cliffordu Nov 2013 #52
Th1onein Nov 2013 #58
cliffordu Nov 2013 #62
Th1onein Nov 2013 #64
cliffordu Nov 2013 #65
HangOnKids Nov 2013 #70
Th1onein Nov 2013 #148
Caretha Nov 2013 #129
cliffordu Nov 2013 #155
Change has come Nov 2013 #63
peace13 Nov 2013 #152
Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #82
idwiyo Nov 2013 #87
Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #88
idwiyo Nov 2013 #89
Th1onein Nov 2013 #111
idwiyo Nov 2013 #112
Th1onein Nov 2013 #110
davidpdx Nov 2013 #84
CTyankee Nov 2013 #133
davidpdx Nov 2013 #143
Boudica the Lyoness Nov 2013 #145
Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #67
sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #69
idwiyo Nov 2013 #90
Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #3
WillyT Nov 2013 #6
Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #12
WillyT Nov 2013 #15
Bradical79 Nov 2013 #102
Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #109
Bradical79 Nov 2013 #100
Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #108
mountain grammy Nov 2013 #147
libodem Nov 2013 #4
HangOnKids Nov 2013 #72
jeff47 Nov 2013 #97
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #118
uppityperson Nov 2013 #120
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #122
uppityperson Nov 2013 #123
newcriminal Nov 2013 #124
uppityperson Nov 2013 #125
newcriminal Nov 2013 #126
uppityperson Nov 2013 #127
newcriminal Nov 2013 #130
uppityperson Nov 2013 #131
uppityperson Nov 2013 #132
newcriminal Nov 2013 #134
uppityperson Nov 2013 #136
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #137
uppityperson Nov 2013 #138
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #139
Boudica the Lyoness Nov 2013 #144
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #146
Boudica the Lyoness Nov 2013 #150
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #157
jeff47 Nov 2013 #154
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #156
Curmudgeoness Nov 2013 #5
WillyT Nov 2013 #8
Curmudgeoness Nov 2013 #14
el_bryanto Nov 2013 #28
Bradical79 Nov 2013 #106
Curmudgeoness Nov 2013 #121
Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #7
WillyT Nov 2013 #13
Mariana Nov 2013 #60
Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #66
dionysus Nov 2013 #94
haele Nov 2013 #96
Warpy Nov 2013 #9
nadinbrzezinski Nov 2013 #10
aptal Nov 2013 #16
boston bean Nov 2013 #19
IdaBriggs Nov 2013 #33
boston bean Nov 2013 #35
IdaBriggs Nov 2013 #45
boston bean Nov 2013 #48
IdaBriggs Nov 2013 #51
boston bean Nov 2013 #54
IdaBriggs Nov 2013 #59
boston bean Nov 2013 #61
Violet_Crumble Nov 2013 #81
boston bean Nov 2013 #86
HangOnKids Nov 2013 #75
Captain Stern Nov 2013 #98
arthritisR_US Nov 2013 #17
newcriminal Nov 2013 #18
arthritisR_US Nov 2013 #53
HangOnKids Nov 2013 #73
Violet_Crumble Nov 2013 #76
uriel1972 Nov 2013 #20
el_bryanto Nov 2013 #21
WillyT Nov 2013 #29
el_bryanto Nov 2013 #30
WillyT Nov 2013 #38
el_bryanto Nov 2013 #39
WillyT Nov 2013 #47
el_bryanto Nov 2013 #50
HangOnKids Nov 2013 #74
Hekate Nov 2013 #36
Number23 Nov 2013 #37
newcriminal Nov 2013 #43
Hekate Nov 2013 #44
jeff47 Nov 2013 #99
hfojvt Nov 2013 #56
Hekate Nov 2013 #57
CreekDog Nov 2013 #83
ScreamingMeemie Nov 2013 #103
Violet_Crumble Nov 2013 #71
Go Vols Nov 2013 #113
ohheckyeah Nov 2013 #78
hrmjustin Nov 2013 #79
idwiyo Nov 2013 #93
Baitball Blogger Nov 2013 #91
Prism Nov 2013 #95
idwiyo Nov 2013 #114
Prism Nov 2013 #115
idwiyo Nov 2013 #116
Prism Nov 2013 #117
idwiyo Nov 2013 #119
Prism Nov 2013 #135
idwiyo Nov 2013 #149
NCTraveler Nov 2013 #101
treestar Nov 2013 #105
peace13 Nov 2013 #151

Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:13 PM

1. I don't think you made yourself clear here.

I certainly don't understand what you're saying, or asking.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:16 PM

2. Trying To Avoid Being Accused Of A "Call-Out"...

 

But for you, I'll risk it.

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024020467




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Response to WillyT (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:33 PM

11. Thanks, WillyT.

Unfortunately, I am anti-abortion. I used to think that abortion should be illegal, and that Roe v. Wade should be overturned, but I've changed my mind about that issue because too many lives would be lost without having access to safe abortions. But I am still against abortion and do not believe that it is a woman's "right" when it involves the right of another human being to life, itself.

I've said this many times on DU, much to the chagrin of those who are avidly and ardently pro-choice. I vote Democratic, in fact straight ticket, and I will even bite the bullet and vote for Hillary Clinton, if she gets the nomination, but I am consistently pro-life. I am against abortion, against guns, against war, and against capital punishment.

I think that there are many, many in the Democratic Party just like me, but they are often shouted down. And that's really a shame.

Now, I'm going to shut up, and let whoever wants to shout, shout. I'm sick and don't feel like arguing.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:55 PM

22. good, then don't have one.

 

I see no problem, just mind you own business.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #22)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:00 PM

25. How did you escape my Ignore List?

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #25)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:06 PM

27. Wow why so angry?

I saw nothing in that post that would merit an ignore.

It's a common pro choice stance.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #27)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 03:17 AM

80. The "just mind your own business" probably did it.

This being a discussion board and all.

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Response to JimDandy (Reply #80)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:12 AM

92. This being a Democratic Underground, and Democratic Party supports Right to Chose, abortion included

No?

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #25)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:01 AM

68. Make sure you add me

If you haven't already

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:56 PM

23. You had to get it out just one more time.

You've in the past called it homicide and called women murderers.

This is not liberal.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #23)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:00 PM

24. Ya know, Boston Bean, people come to DU to learn, to grow, and they change their views, sometimes,

as they become more educated. That's what I've done. And, as for "getting it out just one more time," I consider being honest an important character trait, so I do my best to practice it.

You have neither the ability, nor the right, to judge whether I'm liberal or not.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #24)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:01 PM

26. I believe I can conclude your position on abortion is not liberal or

Progressive.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #26)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:10 PM

31. I believe you are wrong.

There are many others who are progressives who think exactly along the same terms about this issue as I do, and they ARE progressives, whether you like it or not.

Do you really think that people who believe as I do, and who consider, as I do, themselves progressives, haven't given a lot of thought to this issue? Do you thnk that we are just stupid, and or that just won't listen to reason?

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:12 PM

32. I stated your position on abortion was not liberal. Are you arguing that your position should be

Part of the democratic platform? I believe you said that before.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #32)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:23 PM

40. So what?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm sure YOU'VE said things here more than once, as well.

Look, I think that they system is unbalanced. We don't know when life begins. People who are against abortion believe it begins at conception; people who are pro-choice believe it begins at birth, but no one really knows for sure. So, at best, you have no harm done to anyone/thing that is aborted, but at worst, you have a life ended.

If you outlaw abortion, you end up with women being killed by bad abortions. If you don't, you end up with lives lost to abortion. This is not the way to balance things out.

As usual, the balance needs to be a positive counterweight. Instead of arguing all of the time about this issue, and framing it as a woman's right issue, put it in another frame. Start defining prolife like Warren defines it--and start working on things that will make abortion rare, like sex education, access to birth control, etc. It's the only way out; the only solution to this wedge issue.



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Response to Th1onein (Reply #40)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:27 PM

42. Sorry it's just none of your business. You think it's taking a life,

Don't have one.

Want to reduce unwanted pregnancies I'm with you. Limit abortion I am 100% against you. So isn't the Democratic Party.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #42)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:36 PM

46. You apparently didn't read what I wrote.

More inflammatory rhetoric that gets us nowhere.

I'm done. Welcome to my Ignore List.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #46)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:43 PM

49. I'm not going to give any pro life argument credence.

I've been around the block a bunch of times with people twisting what it means to be pro choice.

Forgive me, but when I hear abortion is taking a life their arguments are going to fall on deaf ears. Deal with it.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #46)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:54 PM

55. I read what you wrote "Now, I'm going to shut up, and let whoever wants to shout, shout. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4024131
I consider being honest an important character trait, so I do my best to practice it.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4024021

I think that there are many, many in the Democratic Party just like me, but they are often shouted down. And that's really a shame.

Now, I'm going to shut up, and let whoever wants to shout, shout. I'm sick and don't feel like arguing.


So, I am probably on your ignore list for copy/pasting what you wrote upthread.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #42)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:57 PM

107. I wish the shouting matches on here could be framed with the politics of the situation in mind

You are 100% against a 'limit' on abortion....the person you are posting to is unsure of when life begins. But you are having a theoretical fight, putting goal posts in places they haven't been at in years. Lets look at the current debate - what actually gets voted on and challenged in court these days.

Putting this in the context of the current issues:

1) Do you consider the current restrictions (in most states) on abortions after 26 weeks to be too much of a limit?

2) Do you consider the proposal in some states to reduce it to 20 weeks too much of a limit?

I have say that, if your answer to question #1 is "yes, f-you, none of your business", you would not be in step with most D politicians.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #40)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:58 AM

77. "framing it as a women's rights issue"????

Wow.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #40)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:16 AM

85. You are utterly incorrect about stating when pro-choice people think 'life begins.'

 

Roe v Wade acknowledged that 'life' begins at conception. What the State's interest in that life is is the core issue of the ruling. You are repeating an anti-choice trope of 'abortion up to birth' when you falsely claim that pro-choice people think life begins at birth.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #40)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 05:20 PM

153. You're playing a fucking stupid semantic game.

 

And pro-choice folks have very varying opinions on this anyhow.
So you clearly are a shitstirring and have no clue.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:16 PM

34. I don't think your anti-choice stance is progressive at all.

Because it's not, no matter how many times you keep trying to say it is.

Do you still think women who've had abortions are murderers? Cause that sure as heck isn't a progressive stance.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #34)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:43 PM

104. This anti-choice person has been allowed to remain on DU for years.

 

Other people have been banned for saying they don't think gays should be allowed to get married. I agree with those bannings -- but why the double standard, admins?

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #104)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:14 PM

141. +100000 nt

 

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:26 PM

41. Antil-abortion = anti-progressive.

 

Three people have said it now.

How many more need to say it before you believe it?

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #41)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:34 PM

128. You can be against abortion and be progressive.

 

You can't want to BAN abortion and be progressive.

Big difference.

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Response to Pab Sungenis (Reply #128)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:47 PM

140. No you can't.

 

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #140)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:16 PM

142. I disagree.

 

I have serious moral reservations about abortion. I am against abortion.

However, I accept that a woman's rights over her body come first and I have no right to impose my opinion. Therefore I am pro-choice.

I would like to see the number of abortions go down by attacking many of the reasons that women feel they need to abort -- economics, lack of effective sex ed, unavailability or stigmatization of birth control, birth defects, and so on.

If we can solve these problems then women will actually have more of a choice. Better education and birth control will mean fewer accidental pregnancies. Better economic conditions will make it easier for women who want to become mothers to be able to afford to do so. Address medical problems that result in therapeutic abortions.

And if a woman still feels that she does not want to carry a pregnancy to term, that's her choice. But let's tackle some of the situations that might limit her ability to choose.

THAT is progressive AND anti-abortion. Simultaneously.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:49 PM

52. It would help your case

If you were willing to adopt 10 fetuses at random....

Conversely, you could just stay out of what is clearly none of your fucking business. Ever.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #52)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:22 AM

58. More inflammatory rhetoric.

Yawn. So useless.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #58)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:33 AM

62. Still: What anyone else does with their

Bodies is none of your fucking business.

Whether it's scarification, tattoos, peircing, self branding, abortion, tanning beds or chronic masturbation, it is NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.

So, opine all you need to you. It's fun to watch! But remember, what we do with our bodies is none of your business. Truly!

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #62)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:38 AM

64. I guess if you say it enough times, you might believe it.

I don't.

Welcome to Ignore. This is really pointless.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #64)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:41 AM

65. Ah, we hardly knew ya

Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:34 AM - Edit history (1)

Travel safe and sound, but remember, what we do with our bodies IS ABSOLUTLEY NONE OF YOUR GLADYS KRAVITZ BUSINESS.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #64)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:32 AM

70. How many children do you have?

 

How many? Thanks. On edit this is to make sure I know you understand what it takes to raise a child.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #70)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 03:14 AM

148. I was (and still am) a single mother. I have two children.

One daughter still living. My son died of cystic fibrosis. I know what it takes to raise a child.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #64)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:35 PM

129. If you think what

 

I do with my body is your business...hmmm....

tell you what, you first. Please inform me and the members at DU what you do to your body. Start with your weight, eating habits, operations, how many children you've had, miscarried etc. Also, include how often you have sex and with how many partners.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

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Response to Caretha (Reply #129)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 09:56 PM

155. ^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #52)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:35 AM

63. :applause:

...I wish that worked in the reply title

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #52)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 05:20 PM

152. + 100

 

Adding that fully formed children are still waiting in the wings. But...your last is the best idea!

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:33 AM

82. since you vote

Straight democratic you personal view has absolutly no effect on the right to choose and should be respected.

We don't want to down the road of purity or litumus tests.

At least you are respectfull and consistent in your beliefs which sadly many here lack.

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #82)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:41 AM

87. Calling abortion "murder" is respectful? Holy shit.

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #87)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:46 AM

88. I haventnseen that thread and if it wasn't aimed at an idividual

It is her opinion, nothing more. .

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #88)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 10:50 AM

89. It aimed at everyone who chose abortion. Calling me a murderer is respectful?

It's forced-birthers propaganda. Nothing more nothing less. Is this what you honestly believe is respectful?

Posting on Democratic Underground that one supports repeal of Roe vs Wade is respectful too?

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #87)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:16 PM

111. You really need to read my posts, idwiyo.

I'm putting you on my Ignore list.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #111)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:28 PM

112. Didn't you do it once already? Regardless, I'll display it as a badge of honour!

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #82)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:13 PM

110. Thank you, Niceguy1. Your behavior lives up to your handle.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:00 AM

84. For what it's worth my mom is also pro-life

and votes D straight ticket. I absolutely disagree with her, but at the same time I'm glad she still votes for Democrats.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #84)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:04 PM

133. A woman can be against abortion for herself, but pro-choice.

I had an unplanned pregnancy with my 3rd child. We had wanted a 3rd child but not so soon after the 2nd (less than 18 months!). I was young and able bodied and could do just about anything! I knew I could have a legal abortion but I was young and confident, married and had a pretty good income and a nice house.

circumstances alter cases, as the saying goes.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #133)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:22 PM

143. As I said she is against abortion completely

I disagree as I am pro-choice, but we don't talk about that. Too much of a difference of opinion.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #11)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 12:40 AM

145. I am stunned I'm reading this on DU.

 

Nobody has the right to set up shop inside of me.

I have the right not to go through 9 dangerous months of being a vessel and putting my life at risk to bring something I don't want, into the world.

I have the right not to endanger my life ... just to make you happy.

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Response to WillyT (Reply #2)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:36 AM

67. I get what he is saying

He is coming at it from an emotional angle due to his life story. Nothing wrong with that. We all see things through the lens of personal experience along with everything else. His experience causes an ambivalence towards the subject. He says he supports a woman's right to abortion. That should be enough. I think he was treated badly in that thread. I hope we can do better as a group to not pile on someone like that.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #67)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:27 AM

69. Anyone who dares to have a different opinion on DU lately is treated badly. When it suits them

though, the Dem Party is a 'big tent', until someone expresses a personal opinion on an issue they are genuinely conflicted about, or genuinely believe and it's not enough to say they are speaking only for themselves. See upthread eg. Then they don't belong in the Big Tent.

I know plenty of Dem women who, for themselves, would not have an abortion. They have every right to express that opinion whether I agree with it or not, just as those who believe the opposite have every right to express their opinions. But attacking people who are Democrats but have personal opinions on issues that others don't agree with, isn't going to change anyone's mind. It's not that hard to simply tell someone 'I don't agree with you, I believe you are wrong, but you have a right to your opinion just as I do.' Not hard at all, yet for some attacking is the only way they can handle a difference of opinion.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #69)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:08 AM

90. "I support right to chose" doesn't equal "I wish everyone carried to term and gave it for adoption,

because you might be killing someone just like me, or to put it 'nicely', 'denying them their right to live'. Please don't do it", is not even remotely the same.

The later is shaming and guilt-tripping, straight out of forced-birthers handbook. Sorry it bothers you if I have low tolerance for anti-abortion bullshit.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:19 PM

3. Ironic? Not at all...

 

I was adopted. Given my age it is entirely possible (or even likely?) that had abortion been legal I would never have been born. It would then make sense for someone like me to oppose or discourage abortion.

Now I am pro-choice, but I don't see the irony, and I certainly do not condemn someone for their moral convictions either way. I simply think that one's own personal morals are irrelevant here, and that it is up to the woman to make this choice for herself.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:23 PM

6. Good Points All... But You're Not Suggesting Women Don't Have Abortions Because Of You...

 

And Your Experience... Correct???

Seems like the other posters was... or was getting close to it.

And then there's the.... shaming women part...




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Response to WillyT (Reply #6)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:34 PM

12. Not at all...

 

But if someone like me, who was adopted, reached the conclusion that they would PREFER fewer abortions, how could we condemn them? Hell, if someone reached that conclusion for any reason that's their right. It only becomes a problem when they attempt to have their personal or religious preferences encoded into law.

As for the other thread, well, I didn't finish reading it. I have made up my mind on the issue -- I am pro-choice and I am not going to change. I think that's enough. Threads and discussions like that one tend to degenerate into a cesspool of purity testing in which being pro-choice is not enough. There must also be complete agreement on the thought processes behind the decision.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:36 PM

15. Agreed... I appreciate Your Response...

 




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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #12)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:34 PM

102. True, though I think the thought process is worth exploring

 

Especially when the thought process behind a personal moral choice like hoping for less abortions certainly do lead to non-pro choice decision making with quite a few people. Such as limiting abortion choice to various scenarios. When the thought process leading to such legal and political situations is seriously flawed, then I think it should be explored even if some still reach the pro-choice conclusion.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #102)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:33 PM

109. I think I addressed this in this post linked below...

 

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:26 PM

100. It's flawed thinking.

 

It makes a certain amount of sense if only thinking about your own personal existence, or cherry picking the existence of certain people who you admire. But should someone be against giving an abortion or morning after pill to a rape victim because they happened to be a product of rape themselves? Or should I be against condom use or birth control because I was an unplanned child? If someone said "Hey, I'm glad my mom was raped because otherwise I wouldn't exist!" they'd be looked at as an idiot at best, or worse, a heartless selfish monster. The argument of existence works both ways though.

How many mothers have died from complications of pregnancy and giving birth? Could a particular serial killer's or awful dictator's actions have been averted because of abortion? It's a pretty worthless argument beyond idle speculation about alternative history.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #100)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:30 PM

108. The thinking is no more "flawed" than any other conclusion modified by personal experience...

 

I am pro-choice. I believe woman's immediate and fundamental rights as an individual have a greater objective value than the right of some potential future person. To be clear, I believe that a potential future person has NO rights and NO objective value beyond that granted it by the mother -- as she the only person with an immediate vested interest in the outcome. It is her choice to accept or reject the potential life, at any point up to its' birth, with no "moral" considerations attached to this decision.

But this is not to say that I do not understand the emotions or reasoning behind someone else's position on the issue.

Someone like me, who was adopted, could easily conclude that legal abortion would have resulted in their own personal extermination. I would likely have never EXISTED, my daughter killed before I entered screaming into the world. It is entirely possible that our current President, as well as his beautiful children, would have suffered this same fate of non-existence. For someone in my shoes to say, "Wow, that kinda sucks, I don't want more of that" is not irrational or flawed, it's entirely reasonable.

I just disagree with an laws or arguments which take this decision away from the potential mother. Simply, I do not believe it is possible to reach a conclusion other than my own without first stipulating that women have no inherent absolute rights as individuals. Once you open that door, even a crack, women's rights automatically become secondary to their status as reproductive machines or breeding stock. They become property. Any reasoning which allows one to say "I control your body during your pregnancy" automatically grants that power at any time, including pre-conception. And thus I reject it.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #100)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 02:09 AM

147. You're right, it's very flawed thinking for the very reasons you state so well.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:22 PM

4. Oh you know

Having your newborn infant ripped from your arms forever, is such a piece of cake. No biggie you get over it.

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Response to libodem (Reply #4)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:39 AM

72. Fan of hyperbole?

 

Who the fuck mentioned newborn infants being ripped from mothers arms?

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #72)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:59 PM

97. What do you think "adoption instead of abortion" is? (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #97)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:07 PM

118. That does not describe the mothers I know who gave their children up for adoption.

Including my adopted sister, who gave her first child up for adoption. Or the other families I know who are involved in open adoptions (as biological parents, siblings, or adoptive parents).

So - yes, it is hyperbole.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #118)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 07:36 PM

120. It does describe 3 women's experiences that have been friends of mine. Yes, there are open

adoptions, but also ones in which the mother gets to see/perhaps hold the infant and that is it. Forever. Or until, in one case, the mom drank herself to death one cold night 15 yrs later after never getting over it.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #120)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:10 PM

122. Those situations were likely years ago,

when parents forced their daughters into homes for unwed girls. And it doesn't mean that there are not really hard stories still - but particularly these days, "Having your newborn infant ripped from your arms forever" is not a generally accurate description of giving up a newborn for adoption - which makes the characterization hyperbole.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #122)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:12 PM

123. Obviously one was years ago since the mom drank/died of hypothermia 15 yrs later. It all depends on

how it is done. There are open adoptions, and ones where the mom does not get to interact with the newborn. If you adopt, make sure you do it the right way for you as there are options. But to say it is all easy peasy peaches and cream is also not accurate as sometimes it is awful and awfully hard.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #123)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:18 PM

124. hmmm....

 

"But to say it is all easy peasy peaches and cream is also not accurate as sometimes it is awful and awfully hard."

I think I have heard that before.

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Response to newcriminal (Reply #124)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:24 PM

125. And? You remember me saying "for some" and "sometimes"? So?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #125)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:26 PM

126. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

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Response to newcriminal (Reply #126)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:29 PM

127. I sleep well, thank you very much. Some women have an easy time, some more difficult

whether we are talking about getting an abortion or adopting out their infant. I am sorry you seem to have trouble with that fact but it in no way affects my ability to sleep.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #125)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:42 PM

130. no

 

you didn't say "for some"

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Response to newcriminal (Reply #130)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:48 PM

131. Yes. I did. I always do. I am the one who says "for some" not "all" or "every". Maybe you have me

confused with another poster. I am the one who says there are all sorts of reasons, all sorts of ways, all sorts of reactions. Yes, I am the one who believes in an infinite spectrum of shades of grey. There are some women for whom getting an abortion is simple. There are some for whom it is heartbreakingly difficult. Same for adoption.

Maybe you have me confused with another poster who writes dichotomously, that All or None Must or Should.

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Response to newcriminal (Reply #130)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:55 PM

132. Here is what I wrote. I highlighted "for some" since you seem to have missed it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4023643
having helped hundreds of pregnant get abortions, there is a wide range and for some, yes

it is taken "as lightly as a blood transfusion". For some, it is a horrendously difficult decision to make. No one can or should tell them how or what to feel and no one should impart feelings of shame for how they feel or why they made the decision they did. Whether it be easy or difficult or somewhere in between or a mixture or whether or not their feelings change over time.

It is very individual.


See? "for some".

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #132)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:09 PM

134. I was talking about the post above.

 

since you seem to have missed it.

Star Member uppityperson (78,003 posts)

123. Obviously one was years ago since the mom drank/died of hypothermia 15 yrs later. It all depends on





how it is done. There are open adoptions, and ones where the mom does not get to interact with the newborn. If you adopt, make sure you do it the right way for you as there are options. But to say it is all easy peasy peaches and cream is also not accurate as sometimes it is awful and awfully hard.


See? no "for some".

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Response to newcriminal (Reply #134)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:17 PM

136. This is my 78,004th post and most of them do not say "for some". I ONLY said "sometimes" in that

post, not "for some" but

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #123)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:35 PM

137. I was responding solely to the insistence

that it was not hyperbole to describe adoption as "Having your newborn infant ripped from your arms forever." While that was more often true back when I was a teenager, it is rarely true in this era for newborn adoptions in the United States

That doesn't mean it is an easy decision, or easy to live with the aftermath. But it is, by and large, a choice these days - and it doesn't have to be a forever separation.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #137)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:38 PM

138. Yup, I agree with all of that. Sorry for being, well, upppity at you.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #138)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:40 PM

139. You're just living up to your name.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #137)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 12:34 AM

144. Have maternal instincts changed over the years?

 

There is no stronger instinct than a mothers need to protect, nurture and bond with her baby.

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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #144)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 01:53 AM

146. The question is whether, in the context of the current debate,

describing adoption as "Having your newborn infant ripped from your arms forever" is hyperbole.

Not whether it is am emotionally difficult choice - but whether adoption involves ripping the infant from the arms of its mother. Because most infant adoptions in the US (the context of this conversation) are with the consent of the mother (they would - generally - be illegal otherwise), who is free to change her mind even for a period of weeks or months after the adoption in most instances, describing that process as "Having your newborn infant ripped from your arms" is hyperbole.


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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #146)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 05:06 PM

150. Bottom line;

 

Aborting is natural, occurs all the time in nature. Giving your baby away...very unnatural and very much against nature. I pity the women who have to go through with it.

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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #150)

Fri Nov 15, 2013, 01:30 AM

157. Both, though, are a major source of grief -

I can assure you, having spent a lot of time with women who spontaneously abort.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #137)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 06:56 PM

154. The ripping does not have to be physical.

The ripping could just as easily take the form of not being able to provide for another child. Just as with a physical "ripping", the mother's choice is getting made for her. This time by economics instead of disapproving parents.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #154)

Fri Nov 15, 2013, 01:25 AM

156. When the mother's choice is made for her, I agree.

But it is still hyperbole to refer to modern day adoption of infants that way, as a general matter.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:22 PM

5. I think you are reading too much into it.

Someone can want there to be no abortions, which, I think, we all do. They can also be grateful to be alive on a personal level. But they can also believe that restricting abortions is not the answer.

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Response to Curmudgeoness (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:28 PM

8. You're Most Likely Correct...

 

Just have a knee-jerk reaction to these types of stories...

If they are in earnest... I listen and feel.

If they are part of an organized agenda... I react and tend to punch... metaphorically of course.




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Response to WillyT (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:36 PM

14. If I were pushing an agenda,

I would have made a case for pro-life. This did not do that. But I know what you mean about being alert. Just don't let alert become paranoid.

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Response to WillyT (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:07 PM

28. I am not part of an organized agenda, but if i were part of an organize agenda

that's exactly what I would say.

Bryant

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Response to Curmudgeoness (Reply #5)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:46 PM

106. True, less abortions could be a good thing

 

Though there are multiple reasonings for this, some that make more sense than others. I suppose in my world view, a world with less abortions would be a good thing if it came about because of universal access to birth control, high quality sex education, women having the legal and economic rights they deserve, and no rape. Less abortions would be a sign of a lot of other improvements rather than being considered a good or bad thing in and of itself. Less abortion would be a statistical indicator rather than a goal.

Less abortion through convincing people that it is morally reprehensible, or through any kind of legal or economic obstacles to having that choice would be a bad thing, imo. Even in a world where abortion is completely legal, convincing people that it is a bad moral choice can be pretty destructive as sometimes abortion really is a life saving medical procedure. It's tragic when a young woman dies because of an ignorant religious view of her family, or because she has been listening to right wing media lies. That's why I think the thought process and reason for being pro-choice or anti-choice is still pretty important.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #106)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:08 PM

121. You hit the nail on the head.

That was exactly what I was thinking when I said it would be good to have few abortions. I was not even thinking in terms of fewer abortions due to forcing women to continue their pregnancies. My thoughts were for all women to have the ability to prevent the pregnancies they do not want in the first place.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:27 PM

7. You find it weird that someone who would not exist had his mother chosen abortion over adoption

tends to personally oppose abortion?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:34 PM

13. Seriously... I'd Love For Somebody To Walk Me Through That Maze...

 

That person is alive... the "birth-mother" carried them to term... the "birth-mother" did NOT terminate the pregnancy... and when the alive person grows up... he/she advocates for the "birth-mother" to chill out and have the child... because it worked for them ???

Please... I'm here to learn.


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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:24 AM

60. ALL of us would not exist if our mothers had chosen abortion.

You. Me. Everyone else. Yet, somehow we don't ALL personally oppose abortion.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #60)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:01 AM

66. My guess is that someone who was adopted feels that they had a "closer call". (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #66)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:39 PM

94. i can relate to the "close call" aspect. if not for a miscarriage, i'd never have been born.

still 100% pro choice though.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #66)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:58 PM

96. Maybe. I was almost miscarried. But I was wanted and my mom made the effort to keep me.

Now here's a mind blower for all the forced birthers or "anti-abortion folks -

If the woman who is currently my mother didn't want me and went through all the expense and effort to have me, would I "know" - or would I even care?

Since no matter if she had made the effort to prevent miscarriage or not, because you all see me posting here I would still have been born.

I would have been born to another set of parents, who might have had to make the choice to keep me or adopt me out, mainly because I was born in the 1950's, and abortion was pretty much illegal or hard to get.

I would still be "Me". There is no "Close Call". You're either born, or you aren't. I love my Mom, and I loved my Dad. Would I have loved my parents as much if I were born to another set, or if another set had raised me?

Would I even know that I could have been born to another set of parents. (Warren Buffett and his wife perhaps? Or Charles Manson and Squeeky Fromme?)

Mind Blown. There ya go.

Haele

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:31 PM

9. I saw that and chalked it up to ambivalence

between wanting women to have the same choice their mothers did yet wanting somehow to control that choice.

My only reply would be to consider her adoption in the context of her birth mother being forced to endure pregnancy and childbirth against her will and her own best interest.

But I didn't, the threat was already hot and getting worse.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:31 PM

10. Perhaps I am dense, quite possible

 

But never saw the shaming. Also the post was quite clear, it is a woman's choice

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:39 PM

16. I didn't see any shaming in the original post myself.

It should be a woman's choice and that is clear.

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Response to aptal (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:47 PM

19. Guess y'all missed the subject of the OP

I think people should, in general, choose not to have abortions


And then went into all the personal moral judgments to back up his argument.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #19)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:13 PM

33. Opening sentence: "I think the decision should 100% be up to the woman involved"

 

That is a pro-choice position.

The two opinions are not mutually exclusive.

I think people, in general, should not be assholes or stick figures or sports fans.

I think the decision should 100% be up to the people involved.

See? It's an OPINION. It only becomes a problem if you support laws making it impossible to be a sports fan or a stick figure or an asshole.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #33)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:16 PM

35. No they are not Ida. A pro choice stance is

I choose this for myself. Not other people shouldn't get an abortion.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #35)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:32 PM

45. Pro-choice is that the woman decides.

 

Period. The rest is opinion.

I personally don't think people should get abortions. I think every pregnancy should be a wanted pregnancy, with perfect health for all involved and money never an issue. Since the world is not a perfect place, and what I think doesn't matter because not every pregnancy is wanted, fountains of money aren't flowing in the city square, and bad things happen with people's health, I will continue to be "pro-choice" and trust women to make appropriate decisions for their lives.

I also don't think people should get cancer, have heart disease, or deal with the pain of bunions. Again, my opinions are not generally used to control the universe, so I remain "pro-healthcare."

For me, "the woman decides" is what pro-choice means. Attempting to instill a purity test past that is ridiculois.

My opinion. Yours may vary. Welcome to the world.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #45)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:40 PM

48. You are speaking for yourself. That is choice.

Making blanket statements that people should not have one and making personal moral arguments to back it up is not choice in any way, shape or form.

So if your objection to my posting is based that somehow you think I am averse to you or the post you made above, that would be incorrect.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #48)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:47 PM

51. You seem to be confused about the difference between OPINION and PRO CHOICE.

 

As long as someone is PRO CHOICE (where the woman decides) it's cool to be here.

They can have all kinds of other OPINIONS and it is cool, as long as they respect that it is still the woman who gets to decide.

I can't be any more clear about this. If you don't get it, I am sorry.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #51)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:50 PM

54. I'm clear that stating persons should not have an abortion is no way

Compatible with any pro choice opinion I've heard or read. It is the antithesis of choice.

You can't just separate the two when blanket statements are being made about very important woman's right.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #54)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:22 AM

59. We disagree. He votes pro choice. He is entitled to an opinion.

 

Even if you don't like it or want to hear it.

I will try one more time.

People shouldn't kill people. <== OPINION

Sometimes people kill people. We have laws to determine whether or not it is a crime. <== REALITY

People shouldn't eat onions. <== OPINION

There are no laws about eating onions. Onion eating is a personal preference thing that many people have opinions about. <== REALITY

People shouldn't have sex. <== OPINION

Many people have sex. We have laws to determine whether or not it is a crime based on who you are doing it with and where. Most of the time it is a personal preference thing that everyone has an opinion about and is not a crime. <== REALITY

People shouldn't have abortions. <== OPINION

Abortions are medical procedures. As long as you don't try to interfere in someone else's private decisions about their medical care or restrict anyone's access to this procedure, you can be a Democrat. <== REALITY

I hope that helps. Either way, I'm done.

ON EDIT: The above statements are used as examples, and should not be interpreted as my personal opinions about killing, eating onions, having sex, or abortions.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #59)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:26 AM

61. His opinion is antithesis to pro choice and I find it objectionable.

That's my opinion, not law.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #61)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 03:21 AM

81. I disagree with yr opinion, BB...

If someone wants abortion to be legal, they're pro-choice. As long as they can see a difference between their own personal opinion and trying to push that opinion onto everyone else by advocating abortion be illegal or trying to talk women out of making their own choice when it comes to their own pregnancy, there's nothing to worry about except for a few inconsistencies I saw in the opinions they expressed but don't really see any point in bringing them up now.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #81)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 08:20 AM

86. I disagree violet.

Not with what you say but with your reading of the post in in discussion and his prior deleted poll on the subject.

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Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #59)


Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #59)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:01 PM

98. Great Examples

I think being pro-choice about abortion (or anything else, for that matter) just means that you have to support the right of each person to make a free choice in the matter, unimpeded by law. It doesn't mean you can't prefer that they make one particular choice over another.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:44 PM

17. He said he felt "people (and by that he would

have to be referring to women) should in general, choose not to have abortions". He was basing this on an egocentric position that he was adopted and if his birth mother had chosen to abort him he would not be walking this earth.
What he forgets is, she CHOSE because she could. It was her decision and she made it and I respect it. So he should respect ANY woman's choice, irrespective of whether she has the baby or has an abortion. His stance felt more like a passive aggressive attempt to instill guilt on to anyone who feels that to have a baby or not is absolutely a woman's choice and only hers. Oh I know he stated he's all for choice and that it's a woman's decision but I have my doubts...

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:47 PM

18. Don't Want To Be Insensitive, but that is what your doing isn't it?

 

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Response to newcriminal (Reply #18)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:49 PM

53. If that's the case then so too was the poster of

the OP in question.

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Response to newcriminal (Reply #18)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:43 AM

73. That is NOT what the OP is doing

 

Wanna try again?

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #73)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:58 AM

76. Yes, it WAS what the OP was doing...

They don't need to try again...

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:47 PM

20. I would like a world where people are not emotionally blackmailed...

into one option or the other, but have the time and the comfort to make it right for themselves. If they choose to bring the child to term full support is waiting for them and if they decide to have an abortion the same support is waiting as well.

If we make the world less hostile to mothers and children, there may be less abortions, but I don't know that for sure. At the same time there is no shame in wanting an abortion for your own unforced reasons.

I wont make that choice for other people, it's their choice and I will support them in that choice. I am fiercely pro-choice.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 10:51 PM

21. I am not following you.

I don't know why that would be ironic; doesn't Irony mean saying the opposite of what you mean to highlight inconsistancies or humor?

Maybe I'm missing something.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:08 PM

29. No E_B... I Take You As Earnest... It's Just That...

 

The "Right-To-Lifers" have pulled every trick in the book to try to convince women that they should carry the child to term, and if they cannot afford to raise it, give it to others.

IT IS NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS !!!

Right to privacy, and all that.




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Response to WillyT (Reply #29)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:10 PM

30. People have a right to privacy - and I would never push my views on any individual woman

I guess that's it.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #30)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:20 PM

38. Cool...

 

BTW... My Mom... now all of 84 years old... had four miscarriages before I was born.

Her Doctor in the 1950's told her she was an "habitual aborter" and would never carry a child to term.

I'm the oldest, and the only boy, of four children. And I love my three sisters.

There was another miscarriage between the sisters... mom doesn't talk about that, because...

She doesn't want us considering the possibilities.

She just wants us to love each other.

And we do...

AND it wasn't lost on me that, in doing the math... I'm damned lucky to be here too.

BTW... Mom is STILL vehemently Pro-Choice.




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Response to WillyT (Reply #38)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:22 PM

39. So were you actually confused about my position or not?

It sounded above like you thought my post was so confusing as to be deranged - maybe I'm reading you wrong - but if you have any questions about my thought process I'll be happy to answer them.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #39)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:39 PM

47. Nevermind... I Tried To Have A Real Dialogue... So I'll Just Leave You With This:

 

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Response to WillyT (Reply #47)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:44 PM

50. You tried to have a real dialogue by calling me out

suggesting I might be part of an organized agenda and saying things like "Seriously... I'd Love For Somebody To Walk Me Through That Maze..." That's not actually a good start.

But, whatever. Have a good night.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #50)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:45 AM

74. Ah yes the I am confused by the confusion I made post

 

Really? This is quite amusing.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:18 PM

36. This is a call-out, even though apparently allowed to stand. You could address the issue...

... in the thread you are criticizing. Yes, you are being insensitive to another person's personal story, especially since that person went out of his way to say he was pro-choice in every legal sense.

What more do you (and others) want? For every DUer to believe and say exactly the same thing on hot-button issues? We're Democrats -- it ain't gonna happen.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #36)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:20 PM

37. Thank you, Hekate. It is a call out and a really needless, really NASTY one as well

I alerted but someone had already alerted. 6-0 to leave this. Shameful.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #37)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:30 PM

43. I alerted.

 

It most certainly is a call out.

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Response to newcriminal (Reply #43)

Tue Nov 12, 2013, 11:31 PM

44. Well, that makes 3 of us, and it was 6-0 to let it stand.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #44)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:03 PM

99. Alerts only "go through" once.

If you alert on a post that was already alerted on, you just get the results of the previous alert.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #36)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:05 AM

56. many seem like they DO want that

for every DUer to believe and say exactly the same thing

but not just on hot-button issues. On ALL issues.

Nobody else can be a true progressive.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #56)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:15 AM

57. Sanctimony and purity tests are, alas, not limited to the GOP

As I indicated in so many words in my reply to el bryanto on his original thread, life is a journey on which we continue to evolve and learn and change opinions. I certainly have, and that's what I got from his OP: a journey to acceptance of a woman's legal right to choose, not judgmentalism and not condemnation.

However, what he got in reply was judgmentalism and condemnation.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #36)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 05:57 AM

83. Callouts aren't against the rules

and second, there's no name in the OP, it's not calling anyone out.

why can't we talk about people claiming to be survivors of abortion and whether or not it is valuable or appropriate for them to weigh in on whether another woman should have an abortion or not?

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Response to Hekate (Reply #36)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:39 PM

103. Yes, it is. Even though I like the OP...this is wrong.

Very wrong.

Respond in that thread, instead of starting a new one to call out the poster.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 02:34 AM

71. I've got no problem with their stance, but I do have a problem with yrs...

Apart from yr OP being a deliberate call-out of another DUer, there was nothing at all ironic about what the other person said. But what would I know? I'm just a woman who had an unplanned pregnancy and ignored the pressure from do-gooder family and friends to either have an abortion or have the baby and worked out for myself I could do the single mother thing because on a personal level I couldn't go through with an abortion. That was *my* decision and I don't regret it. I've now got a daughter who's aware that I did do some soul-searching over whether to have her or not and her views on abortion are very similar to the other person who was adopted. I've got no problem with those views unless they cross into the line where people are actively working to stop women from having abortions if that's what they choose.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #71)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:39 PM

113. +1

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 03:07 AM

78. I usually stay out of abortion threads

but after reading this one, I'm going to put in my 2 cents worth.

For those who feel it's so important to be honest, I have to wonder why. Why would you come on a message board with women who have said they had abortions and tell everyone how you think abortion is taking a life? Is it really about honesty? I don't think so.....if someone personally ask you directly and you replied in that manner, that would be honesty, but otherwise, what is the point? Do you like twisting the knife in what might be a wound for others?

If you are not a woman who has found herself with an unwanted pregnancy for whatever reason, your opinion on abortion is really nothing but a philosophical one based on nothing concrete......like experience.

Are people entitled to their anti-abortion opinion? Of course, they are, but why spout it here where they know it can be hurtful to a woman who has had an abortion?

And one last thought - it's always pointed out by at least one or two people how hard the decision is. Well, society makes it hard. The anti-abortion people are the one's who make it so damn hard on many women to make the decision. The women I know who had abortions felt RELIEF until someone pounded on them about how immoral it is.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 03:10 AM

79. I think a woman should have the right to choose.

 

The moral issues are interesting to grapple with but I will always vote for reproductive rights.

Personally I have questions about whether it is moral or not but as a Gay man I really don't have to deal with this issue personally so I don not feel I can sit in judgement of a woman who chooses to have an abortion.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #79)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:34 PM

93. Thank you for your support.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:12 AM

91. I think this is a miscue of logic on your part.

He hopes that women do not have abortions, because if his mother had one in his case, he would not have been born and available for adoption.

So, no. I don't see the irony.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 12:44 PM

95. The idea is the perception of an adoptee that they were more likely to be aborted

 

I'm an adoptee, and I understand the thinking. It's a sense of not being wanted, and unwanted pregnancies often end in abortion. Yes, even pregnancies in an ideal family situation may not be entirely welcome, but adoptees definitely carry a known sense that their existence was a more chaotic and emotionally turbulent thing.

I suspect the sentiment behind elbryanto's post is something along the lines, "I know this wasn't easy for you, but you went through all that to give me life, and I'm grateful." (He can correct me if I'm mis-assuming). And that by no means implies that any pregnancy is easy or not full of trials and suffering. But again, adoptees tend to know they emerged from a more difficult place than usual.

The only reason he's getting nailed to the wall here is because of radical ideological purity. It's not enough to support law and policy, the rationale and logic behind that support must be exactly the same. Which is a totally ludicrous and unrealistic expectation even on noncontroversial subjects. To seek uniformity on questions of human life is total folly, and I question the common sense of people who demand such a thing.

And just so I'm not misinterpreted, I am 100% pro-choice. I will never vote for anyone who limits a woman's freedom over her body. Period.

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Response to Prism (Reply #95)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 04:48 PM

114. Nothing to do with purity tests. Everything to do with shaming and guilt-tripping.

'I personally would chose to carry to term and give the child for adoption' is an order of magnitude different from 'I think everyone should carry to term because <add sob story here>'. These two are not even remotely the same.

First one is about personal choice. Second is intended to manipulate another person through shaming and guilt-tripping as in 'if you chose abortion, you would be responsible for terminating someone like me!'.

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #114)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 05:04 PM

115. "Shaming" is a meaningless millennial term

 

Wrought of an out of control self-esteem culture where people have the bizarre, egotistical notion that disagreement is practically a physical assault to their personhood.

Disagreement is not shaming. And on an issue as controversial and sensitive as abortion, there's goin to be a lot of disagreeing thought. What's truly important are the ends.

As a political party, we are bound together by what we'd like to see as policy and law. If we all agree choice must be enshrined as inviolate, we are in an awesome place as Democrats.

But when you want to get inside people's heads and demand they think about an issue in a very specific way, that's a creepy authoritarianism devolved out of a desire to crush dissent and control free expression.

There's a word for that. Not a pleasant one.

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Response to Prism (Reply #115)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 05:15 PM

116. I don't give a fig what one thinks. I do care when they express their anti-choice thoughts

on a progressive message board in such a way as to influence others into doing what first person wants through making them feel ashamed and/or guilty.

Please, please don't kill that foetus! Think about all the Einsteins and Cancer-Curers (tm) you might be killing! How could you do so!



When RWers do it we condemn them for it, no?

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #116)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 05:55 PM

117. Here's an analogy I'll leave you with

 

I'm gay. I have Catholic parents. When I came out, they told me it was a sin. Over time, they got over it. All I desired from them was that they treat me equally.

They now do that. They are awesome and welcoming to my partner, they don't vote for anti-gay politicians, they have even started muttering about when I'll "settle down." (i.e. Marry).

In conversations, my mom will still say, "well, I was raised Catholic, and I still think it's a sin, but it isn't like murder or anything." Which is kind of hilarious and sad and terribly human of her.

If I were to behave according to the latest threads on abortion, people would have me screaming at her, if not outright disowning her, and hammering away until she thought about the subject in a way that pleases me.

Why would I do this thing? Is she behaving as I would want a mother of a gay son to behave? Yes. Why on earth does the rest matter so much.

I don't feel shamed. I'm an adult. I can accept people are complicated, contradictory thinkers. As long as they strive for justice, who am I to worry about what's in their noggins?

These threads are a pro-choice vs pro-choice circular firing squad, where people who agree 100% on policy are tearing each other apart for not thinking about the issue in the right way.

Bah. Doesn't lead to any good. It's alienating for both sides and counterproductive as all hell. And given the siege women's reproductive health is currently suffering under across the country, I'm mystified how this is consuming this much time and effort.

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Response to Prism (Reply #117)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 06:31 PM

119. Unfortunately for me, my so-called allies do not accept that my body belongs to me

and no one has a right to dictate to me what I should and shouldn't do with my body. They advocate for and approve of restrictions on abortions. Some argue that abortions shouldn't be allowed at all. Some argue it's OK to have one in a limited set of circumstances that they personally approve off. Some keep trying to influence me by trying to make me feel ashamed or guilty with sob stories, calling me a murderer, etc.

Fortunately for you your parents fully accept you for who you are, and behave as I expect a pro-choice person to behave, as in 'I wouldn't do it myself but support your right to do what you want without any exceptions'.

Would you feel the same about them if every time the topic of sexual orientation came up they would advocate against it, try to make you feel ashamed of yourself, try to manipulate you into therapy? How about if they advocated and approved of a law that prohibits discrimination against against gays but makes sex with a person of same gender a crime?

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #119)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 09:13 PM

135. We are allied against those people.

 

Anyone who advocates for legal restrictions should be combatted. We are together in this.

I'm talking about mere personal opinion.

Because I'm fond of imprecise analogies, take drugs as an example. I'm for legalization. I also don't think people should do them (outside of pot, really). That's not a controversial position. It's a fairly logical place many people stake out in politics. So it is with abortion. There are millions of Democrats out there who think they're not that great but should remain legal. I don't see much practical difference.

As for people who don't approve of homosexuality but support equality in policy, I'll largely either ignore them or avoid them. Maybe this is just my disposition, but I don't see the point in wrestling with every asshole who votes Democratic but says ignorant shit. It would be exhausting. As long as you nip the really egregious assholes, the rest tends to sort itself out.

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Response to Prism (Reply #135)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 03:16 AM

149. As I said already it's not my business what someone thinks.

Only when they try to force their opinions on others it becomes my business.

Millions of people in UK and US will not chose abortion for themselves, yet they fully support a Right to Chose. They do not try to force their choice on me in any way, shape, or form. Those are my allies.

On the other hand, there are those who offer conditional support only. Only if it meets THEIR requirements. They don't give a shit about what I think is best for me, they only care to force on me what THEY think is best. They will NEVER support abolishing all restrictions, like Canada did for instance., but they sure as hell will support violation of my body. They are my enemies. doesn't matter how sweet they talk.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:32 PM

101. A woman wins here by being able to make her own decision.

 

Something that fewer and fewer women have the option of. We must work to provide women with all of the options we should have. Starting with affordable, available, and safe abortion/family planning centers all over the country. We are going backwards, not forward.

I also don't really see the irony in that persons position. Their life's circumstances have brought them to their current position. Their time on DU might change their current position. That is what we can hope for.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:44 PM

105. Not really. Someone who knows they were adopted

Might realize their existence was at one time uncertain. The mother chose adoption, but could have chosen abortion. I can see why that person would be ambivalent. If you don't want to be insensitive then recognize that. Nothing is black and white simple. Maybe it's too easy for those of us who know we were wanted or inevitable.

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Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Nov 14, 2013, 05:17 PM

151. I got slammed with that adoption scam yesterday!

 

Be careful. Sounds stupid but I have had to block adoption of all the crazy things. Before the day was out I was a pro-lifer trying to stop the freedom of speech! Be safe and....don't let the turkey's get you down!

Peace, Kim

Edited to add that my warning was too late. Sorry! After reading the responses here you know of what I speak.

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