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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:44 AM

Really? Really? This is the man so many of you are fawning over?

Last edited Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by In_The_Wind (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Thread after fawning thread about Pope Francis here, on a supposedly progressive forum where the rights of women and gays are assumed to be important? Well, maybe not so much, huh? And that fight against poverty? The grinding poverty that has a demographic comprised mostly of women and children, most severely manifested in countries where women are denied reproductive choice? Is there not the slightest bit of recognition that there is a disconnect between being against the death penalty but sentencing thousands, if not millions of women around the world to death because they do not have access to birth control and abortion? Preach to me about the Pope's love for women even as he continues the war on progressive nuns and reaffirms that the door to the ordination of women remains closed. Remind me again about this new dawning for it looks like the same old sunrise to me when Archbishop Gerhard Mueller remains in charge of the Vatican's policy regarding the sexual abuse of children.
Now having dismissed all of the above, by all means please feel free to post another gushing thread about the Pope's car. And by all means, let me know if he adopts a puppy.

http://www.thenation.com/article/176345/pope-francis-sexism-human-face#
(excerpt)
Sure enough, the day after the publication of the interview—and to much less notice—Pope Francis gave a firmly anti-abortion speech to a gathering of Catholic gynecologists. He quoted Pope Benedict on the connection between “openness to life” and social justice (“openness to life” is code for banning not just abortion but contraception), castigated abortion as part of a “throw-away culture” and urged Catholic doctors to refuse to perform them. At best, this suggests an opening for the “seamless garment” Catholicism promoted by the late Cardinal Bernardin, in which opposition to birth control and abortion was connected with opposition to war, capital punishment and poverty.
Women really get the short sleeve of the seamless garment, I must say. Realistically, ending war or poverty is way beyond the church’s power, but it has been rather effective around the world at promoting unwanted pregnancy and forced childbirth. I honor the way Catholic activists have fought the death penalty in the United States, but it is a fact that exponentially more women die because of lack of access to birth control and abortion globally than do prisoners in the execution chamber. In numerous countries where the Catholic Church is powerful—Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, the Philippines—the death penalty does not exist, and abortion is banned even to preserve the woman’s life: a serial killer is at less risk of death from the state than a pregnant woman.
Pope Francis’s record on women so far is a continuation of his conservative predecessors’. “On the ordination of women,” he has said, “that door is closed.” Church watchers can debate whether he was agreeing with John Paul II’s “definitive” (but not quite infallible) statement on the matter or simply acknowledging a current political reality. Either way, governance of the church will continue to present a Saudi-like front of solid, if not necessarily heterosexual, masculinity, and its all-important sacraments will continue to be dispensed by men alone.
Pope Francis is continuing the investigation, begun last year by Pope Benedict, of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the progressive nuns’ organization charged with espousing “radical feminist themes” and being insufficiently zealous against abortion and gay rights. It’s hard to imagine winning many hearts and minds among American Catholic women—who use birth control and have abortions and even same-sex weddings like other American women—by putting these immensely learned, dedicated and, of course, devout women under the supervision of male authorities, as though they were children....

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/lets_face_it_pope_francis_still_aint_that_great_20130921?ln

In April, Francis reaffirmed his predecessor’s censure of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an umbrella organization that represents 80 percent of Catholic nuns in the United States. These nuns were penalized by the Vatican, and continue to be penalized, for focusing on poverty instead of stoking moral panic about the existence of gay people or sexually active teenagers — exactly the kind of community-centered work that Francis just declared sorely missing from the church.
In the report admonishing the sisters, and stripping them of the independent authority to develop their own charter and conduct their own business, the Vatican said they were undermining “issues of crucial importance to the life of Church and society, such as the Church’s Biblical view of family life and human sexuality” and promoting “radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”
Francis’ censure places these women under the full authority of the Vatican and its “program of reform,” which includes the appointment of three male bishops to manage the rewriting of the nuns’ conference statutes, review its community-based programs and otherwise ensure the group “properly” follows Catholic teaching.
In the same interview in which the pope urged Catholics to move away from the “obsession” with reproductive healthcare and gay rights to create a more inclusive, welcoming church, he also said, “The teaching of the church, for that matter [of abortion, contraception and gay marriage], is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=53058

A senior Vatican spokesman has denied rumors that Pope Francis may appoint two women as cardinals at the upcoming February conclave. Theologically and theoretically, it is possible," Fr. Lombardi said. "Being a cardinal is one of those roles in the church for which, theoretically, you do not have to be ordained but to move from there to suggesting the pope will name women cardinals for the next consistory is not remotely realistic."

http://world.time.com/2013/09/25/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-who-supports-womens-ordination-and-gays/#ixzz2kDKqUsuJ
Pope Francis Excommunicates Priest Who Backed Women’s Ordination and Gays
Despite his reforming attitude, Francis still supports traditional doctrine
Read more: Pope Francis Excommunicates Priest Who Backed Women’s Ordination and Gays | TIME.com

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/08/07/the-door-to-women-ordination-is-closed-says-pope-francis-and-thanks-be-to-god/
The Door to Women’s Ordination is Closed, Says Pope Francis, and Thanks Be to God

http://www.womensordination.org/content/view/453/42/
Pope Francis slams door on women's ordination
July 29, 2013
Washington, DC - "The Women's Ordination Conference is deeply discouraged to learn of Pope Francis' remarks regarding women's ordination.
In an interview given to reporters on July 28 en route to Rome from Rio de Janeiro, Pope Francis made it very clear that this papacy sees women as separate, but not equal to men, and will keep the door to women's ordination closed, citing Pope John Paul II as his reasoning....

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57604023/
September 21, 2013, 1:40 PM
Pope keeps cleric who leads crackdown on liberal U.S. nuns
(excerpt)
In another important decision, Francis left Archbishop Gerhard Mueller in the powerful role of prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Mueller, originally appointed by Benedict XVI, directs the Holy See's crackdown on nuns suspected of undermining Catholic teaching on the priesthood and homosexuality. His office also shapes policy dealing with clergy who sexually abuse minors.
Under Mueller's tenure, critics of the Vatican's strategy have so far been frustrated in their lobbying for Vatican and other church hierarchy to be held accountable for policy that for decades left pedophile priests in their ministry, merely shuffling them from parish to parish when complaints emerged....

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2013/07/10/2003566788
Church in final birth control fight in Philippines
A relentless Catholic Church campaign to derail a birth control law in the Philippines entered its final phase at the Supreme Court yesterday, with the verdict to have a monumental impact on millions of poor Filipinos.
The court began hearing arguments against a family planning law that Philippine President Benigno Aquino III, defying intense church pressure, helped steer through parliament late last year.
It is the last legal recourse for the church, which for more than a decade led resistance to birth control legislation in the mainly Catholic nation.
The church, which had threatened Aquino and other supporters of the law with excommunication, yesterday held prayer vigils, protests and masses near the Supreme Court....

http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/contraception-philippines-and-pope-francis-passion-poor
Pope Francis has been highly touted for his criticism of institutional evils that create poverty. But there is something deeply troubling about a church leadership that rails against poverty and institutional sin while using its resources to defeat civil laws aimed at alleviating the suffering of the poorest.
If the pope and his brother bishops are to be fully honest about roots of poverty, they must take an honest look at the ways in which the policies and agenda of their institutional church contribute to inadequate medical care for mothers, the starvation of families, the swelling of the slum population, the spread of HIV/AIDS, and environmental degradation.
I realize Pope Francis cannot change the contraception teaching overnight, but he could call the bishops of the Philippines to cease this relentless, well-funded campaign. The institutional church now stands as the lone impediment between poor Philippine mothers and adequate maternal health care. The hierarchy's lobbying has kept mothers and fathers from raising families they can afford, families small enough to allow children to be fed and educated....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/08/opinion/cahill-pope-francis/
Francis' comments on the appointment of bishops suggest that his criteria has less to do with loyalty and orthodoxy and more to do with pastoral experience and compassion. But in his first American appointment, one that was not in the pipeline before his papal election, he named Bishop Leonard Blair as the new archbishop of Hartford, Connecticut.
Blair is a true believer culture warrior and former Vatican official who led the charge against the Leadership Conference of Religious Women last year and earlier joined in the condemnation of Notre Dame University for having President Barack Obama as a speaker. And in light of Francis closing the door on female priests, many women theologians and lay leaders are wondering about his emphasis on a new role for women in the church...
...She points out that the Pope says that the church does not want to wound gays and lesbians, but "Francis doesn't seem to understand that it is precisely the teaching of the church that is doing the wounding."...
...And our new Pope, unintentionally, may seduce many into thinking that things are getting better and provide cover for the Cordileones of our church to continue their campaign of condemnation and exclusion....

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/population/la-fg-population-matters5-20120729-html,0,5897961.htmlstory#axzz2k7J32g4x
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

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Reply Really? Really? This is the man so many of you are fawning over? (Original post)
theHandpuppet Nov 2013 OP
Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #1
roguevalley Nov 2013 #30
ZombieHorde Nov 2013 #2
Whisp Nov 2013 #6
Ian David Nov 2013 #59
dchill Nov 2013 #3
WinkyDink Nov 2013 #39
CherokeeDem Nov 2013 #4
Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #7
MisterP Nov 2013 #10
LuvNewcastle Nov 2013 #65
ScreamingMeemie Nov 2013 #5
Union Scribe Nov 2013 #23
theHandpuppet Nov 2013 #48
William769 Nov 2013 #8
msongs Nov 2013 #9
liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #11
Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #12
WinkyDink Nov 2013 #41
CountAllVotes Nov 2013 #33
theHandpuppet Nov 2013 #42
orpupilofnature57 Nov 2013 #55
Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #66
Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #57
Marrah_G Nov 2013 #13
TorchTheWitch Nov 2013 #35
Lugnut Nov 2013 #14
JDPriestly Nov 2013 #15
bobclark86 Nov 2013 #16
ann--- Nov 2013 #28
theHandpuppet Nov 2013 #34
JNelson6563 Nov 2013 #46
Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #58
hrmjustin Nov 2013 #17
freshwest Nov 2013 #18
BlueMTexpat Nov 2013 #22
ms liberty Nov 2013 #52
defacto7 Nov 2013 #19
DeSwiss Nov 2013 #20
Union Scribe Nov 2013 #21
WinkyDink Nov 2013 #40
Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #24
ann--- Nov 2013 #27
JNelson6563 Nov 2013 #47
theHandpuppet Nov 2013 #56
JNelson6563 Nov 2013 #69
cordelia Nov 2013 #63
treestar Nov 2013 #67
JNelson6563 Nov 2013 #70
SunSeeker Nov 2013 #25
ann--- Nov 2013 #26
theHandpuppet Nov 2013 #37
Humanist_Activist Nov 2013 #68
SleeplessinSoCal Nov 2013 #29
tblue Nov 2013 #31
sibelian Nov 2013 #32
Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #36
cordelia Nov 2013 #54
WinkyDink Nov 2013 #38
theHandpuppet Nov 2013 #43
Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #44
ChazII Nov 2013 #49
Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #51
karadax Nov 2013 #45
treestar Nov 2013 #50
theHandpuppet Nov 2013 #53
Chathamization Nov 2013 #60
LiberalElite Nov 2013 #61
arthritisR_US Nov 2013 #62
bcbink Nov 2013 #64

Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:45 AM

1. Thank you.

 

I'm so very sick of the popefest and disgusted by attempts to silence people who say anything other than: "Oh my, what a wonderful man!"

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:53 AM

30. first of all, acknowledging the humane things he does isn't 'fawning' all over him

you seem to miss the bigger point of the things he is dong and their impact in this world

He leads one third or more of the world's population in their spiritual life. for generations the poor and all the rest were ignored. now he's not. he's leading by example on a lot of important things. Are they all the things I want? No. But they are the important issues for millions of people.

He has committed humble acts of kindness. they are admirable. He had focused his papacy on a lot of really good things.

He has a lot to undo and I hope he will. he will never be what everyone wants nor will he do it fast enough.

But he is aligned with the ideas of Occupy and others who decry the greed and indifference that is killing all of us. You cannot underestimate the power of what he is saying and doing.

Of course, you can dog every thread and spew. Fine. But I am glad that someone in power is actually talking about the poor, the sick and the cast offs of this world. Not even Obama is dong that.

Spew all you want, Op, on every thread. An act of kindness, a good idea and deed will always be appreciated in my book and I don't care what anyone else things. Accept that some people are amazed, catholic and non-catholic alike that someone in religion remembers the red words in the new testament and tries to apply a lot of them.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:54 AM

2. He's better than the last Pope, but yeah,

he's not that great.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:01 AM

6. I think this is how I feel too.

 

Still sorting, tho. Back and forth now and then.

I don't trust them/him but there is always a slim chance of something good or better. Damn slim after all these centuries.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:28 AM

59. "Better than the last Pope" isn't setting the bar very high.

Yes, this Pope still sucks.

And yes, he's better than the last Pope.

But I really don't mind people fawning over him, for the simple reason Pope Ratso is still alive to watch the new guy get all the adoration he never received himself.

After Ratso is dead, I'm going to feel a lot less charitable about it.

I hope Ratso is storming around his apartment throwing things every night.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:55 AM

3. Well, he IS infallible, you know!

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Response to dchill (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:29 AM

39. Clever, but wrong.

 

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:56 AM

4. I am not religious...

but I would like to think that this Pope really believes in helping the poor and changing the Church. However, there is this nagging feeling I have that this a well planned PR campaign. I can almost hear someone say, Let's give them a caring, loving Pope and they might forget about all the bad things we did.

It would be nice if I was wrong, but...

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Response to CherokeeDem (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:02 AM

7. Oh my, this church would NEVER do such a thing!

 

They've been on the up and up for centuries, dontcha know! Pull the wool over gullible people's eyes? Perish the thought!

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Response to CherokeeDem (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:24 AM

10. why? they already have every Protestant's name in a computer!!!!!!

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Response to CherokeeDem (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:30 AM

65. This Pope is, above all else, a politician.

I've noticed a pattern with him. He'll say something that gets the attention of liberals and have them gushing about him, and then he meets with the conservatives and basically takes it all back. He's whatever you want him to be; he's like the Bill Clinton of the papacy. I'd say he's the best politician in the world today. Everything he does is carefully considered and planned for effect. We've seen what he says, now let's see how much he actually changes about the Catholic Church and how it interacts with the world.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:58 AM

5. Straw meet the back of the camel.

Time to add "Pope" to my trashed words for a while. Have fun with the Duggars and PETA, Pope.

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Response to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:59 AM

23. Unfortunately that doesn't stop it

I have: papal, pope, vatican, benedict, and francis on auto-trash by keyword and I'm still seeing this crap because people fail to be even remotely specific in their thread titles.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 08:20 AM

48. You're right

I should have been more specific in my thread title and it was inconsiderate of me not to do so.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:06 AM

8. Kick & highly recommended.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:16 AM

9. good ol' PF has the PR stuff down cold eh? nt

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:27 AM

11. trashing thread.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:28 AM

12. Well, gosh, thanks for letting us know.

 

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:31 AM

41. So thread-bashing is only one-way?

 

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:36 AM

33. +1

n/t

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:32 AM

42. Be my guest

I realize the truth can be difficult to debate.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Reply #42)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:19 AM

55. Truth doesn't discriminate, Opinions do.

 

Torquemada he isn't, nor a saint .

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:51 AM

66. Interesting language you use. In Argentina Francis was a loud advocate for

 

discrimination against gay people and his language was so venomous that the President of Argentina said Francis' verbiage was Medieavl and suggestive of the Inquistion. Argentina voted for marriage equality in spite of Francis giving many spittle laced sermons and interviews in favor of mass discrimination. He as able to use the issue as a catapult to the very pinnacle of his multi billion dollar organization, because he is so humble you see.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:24 AM

57. +1

 

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:32 AM

13. The only real change is a better PR department

The vatican has never, in the history of the vatican done anything unless it benefits and enriches itself.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:02 AM

35. ^^^THIS^^^

Only it's more like in the history of the Roman Catholic Church since its inception.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:33 AM

14. Pope Francis presents a gentle face and demeanor.

He's the opposite of Pope Ratzi as far as that goes. His ideology is still the same and nothing has changed nor will it.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:34 AM

15. K&R. But this Pope is a vast improvement over popes of the 20th century.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:53 AM

16. But he doesn't instantly turn a 2,000-year-old institution

around in a heartbeat to exactly what the OP wants RIGHT NOW!

Because change is very easy, especially over something as touchy as religion...

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Response to bobclark86 (Reply #16)


Response to bobclark86 (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 06:57 AM

34. It's not nice to misrepresent someone's thread

I don't expect Francis to instantly transform a 2,000 year old institution. I simply presented the facts as they are and wonder why a person with such a track record of misogyny and homophobia is worthy of a fan club at DU. If you have anything to dispute about the links I provided and the topics discussed therein, feel free to debate them.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 08:16 AM

46. seems you've done some misrepresenting too.

To recognize someone's good points or efforts is not "fawning" and that is the picture you paint of anyone who has anything good to say about this pope.

I got no dog in this race, being an atheist and all, but I can see how he's a vast improvement. Does this make me a homophobe fawning fan-girl?

Oy.

Julie

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Response to bobclark86 (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:25 AM

58. Bingo!

 

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:00 AM

17. I have no issue with people holding the popes feet to the fire. Speak out where the church is wrong.

 

I pray he moves the church in a liberal direction.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:25 AM

18. Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter

Last edited Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:06 AM - Edit history (1)

A commentary on it:

Thomas Jefferson was a man of deep religious conviction — his conviction was that religion was a very personal matter, one which the government had no business getting involved in. He was vilified by his political opponents for his role in the passage of the 1786 Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and for his criticism of such biblical events as the Great Flood and the theological age of the Earth. As president, he discontinued the practice started by his predecessors George Washington and John Adams of proclaiming days of fasting and thanksgiving. He was a staunch believer in the separation of church and state.

Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them written in October 1801. A copy of the Danbury letter is available here. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority in Connecticut, and they complained that in their state, the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature — as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply did not address their concerns about problems with state establishment of religion — only of establishment on the national level. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state..."


From the letter itself:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. (Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.) Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.


http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Catholics as individuals or as a group, can believe anything they want under the US Constitution, the framework of laws under which progressives, liberals and Democrats define their interactions with government and with each other in many ways.

We are stuck with the First Amendment, too. Which as Obama and others have said, includes the right to freedom from any religion in our dealings with the state. The RCC can believe anything they want, long as they do not meddle in civil life to overturn democratically elected government and laws.

Yes, they may want to. And nothing we say here is going to change their minds as they are not listening to us. They have their own little world.

Membership in the RCC is voluntarily once a person becomes of age, or if their parents are not a member. Even so, a child can be brought up in it and still consider it bullshit. The RCC should be strictly regulated in any activity like any corporation in their dealings with the public or the government.

The influence of those groups is too much, we have to work together to have secular government. AFAIK, anyone who is a Democrat and believes in the party platform, is in effect defying the RCC even if they give it lip service.

People just want to see something nice. If not cat pictures and good news stories, they find the Pope being nice to be happy. Supporters of Obama enjoy the celebration of the work that he does for us, which is secular in nature.

The Pope is news, if he does something people like, they will comment on it just like they might say that' Rachel Maddox and Bill Maher are great!' And to me, the Pope is not a religious figure as much as a VIP. Because I don't believe in what the Pope is reputed to be, and I'm sure many people who like those threads, don't either.

If one does or does not live their life by the rules set by a church, they are welcome to it, and it has nothing to do with DU. I am not going to turn RCC because the Pope did something nice, anymore than I would have become an aristocrat by admiring Princess Diana's work to promote the removal of land mines or liking the work of Prince Charles to promote organic food.

That's why the threads don't bother me, I'm not going to stop being a secular humanist and a working class person by not snarling whenever these VIPs walk by on DU. My belief in equality is so strong, diversity doesn't scare me. I know that there is good and bad in each person, so I try to encourage the good.

You have a right to be mad at the RCC and despise the Pope if you please. What we don't do, is despise other DUers who are not at the same place with you or me.

We still need to have a discussion of what religions are or are not doing to our secular government. Our biggest problem as liberals and progressives is that these groups have millions or billions of followers. They DO interfere with out government. Attacking them doesn't help, but strengthing our secular institutions does. That's where my energy goes.

That's JMHO.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:54 AM

22. Very well said!

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Response to freshwest (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:10 AM

52. Great reply. Wish I could rec it. Thanks, freshwest! n/t

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:29 AM

19. I've said it before...

People like him because he seems less bad than the others. They're looking for some tidbit of hope in that failing institution as well as some rational reason to hang on to an irrational system that has mostly failed to deliver the stability they seek and the promises they have been told.

Sorry but that's not good enough for me.

That Pope may seem like a nice man but a man is all he is, and he has too much power to be anything but dangerous.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:51 AM

20. ''The kingdom of heaven is within.'' ~Jesus :-| n/t

 

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:53 AM

21. The ratio of posts I've seen fawning over the Pope

to posts whining that DUers are fawning over the Pope is so far 0:5

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:30 AM

40. The OP said "threads, " not merely "posts."

 

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:01 AM

24. I have no real love for organized religion of any kind but

You seem upset that one man hasn't turned around some 2,000 years of dogma and tradition on a dime. He is better than what could have been and what has been and if he can be the first in a long line of popes to make the Catholic church more open and accepting of all. I support it you'll never get mankind to give up its religions all you can do is hope that people can come along and reform them and make them more in line with the modern realities

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #24)


Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 08:20 AM

47. Remind me of the hysterics when Obama came into office.

So many were just over the top upset because he hadn't done this that or the other thing fast enough. I mean it was ridiculous.

I'd like to see the loudest cry-babies o this forum just try their hand at something as challenging and see how they feel after. Sadly it will not happen and they will be left with their unrealistic expectations and major disappointment each time those unrealistic expectations don't pan out.

*sigh*

Julie

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #47)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:22 AM

56. I have to say, Julie, your post is very disappointing

If reminding folks of the very real suffering of millions of women, children and gays due to the policies of the church can be dismissed as "hysterics" and those who criticize the leader of that organization are called "crybabies", then I really am on the wrong forum.
I don't criticize Pope Francis for not changing the church overnight; frankly, I don't expect to see any substantive changes at all. And that's the point.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Reply #56)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:35 AM

69. Thanks, back atcha.

I see you're keeping with the subtle intellectually dishonest tactic. Nice. Consistency is good I suppose.

No one said anything about silencing critics of Catholic policy. Have at it, I'll join you! No, we're talking about the pope and, may I remind you, those proclaiming DUers are fawning over him. No, many of us see that perhaps this might be a guy who also wants to ease some of the world's suffering.

As to "the leader of that organization", he's new at his position and has a 2000 year old albatross around his neck. I understand big changes take time and happen incrementally. I'm with-holding judgement on this pope's time as the head of the church until he's had a chance to affect some of the positive change he talks about.

In regard to hysterics and crybabies on DU, I do hope you're not trying to tell me you've never noticed such things here. The posts that really justify the use of both of those words are usually based on speculation (sometimes rather wild speculation) and everyone who joins in gets worked up into a real lather. So often that which was foretold in such threads doesn't come to pass and those prone to hysterical speculation move on to the next (potential) outrage.

Yeah, and I'm seeing a lot of that in regard to this topic. Did I mention I loved your use of the word "fawning"? You chose that word for a reason friend. I too made word choices. Isn't use of hyperbolic language fun?

Julie--done kicking this thread

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #47)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:54 AM

63. Thank you for this.

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #47)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:51 AM

67. As long as a job is someone else's

it's easy. So many people are that way.

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Response to treestar (Reply #67)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:41 AM

70. Yes, I learned this the hard way.

It's really easy to get sucked into the pretend world of on-line where everyone has the right answer and would do a much better job than the actual people in reality do.

When I first got active in politics I found DU (saw Skinner on teevee when Little Boots first got sworn in!) and followed it. Learned so much in those early days! Well it sure seemed like I could do a better job too! Why didn't pols know just what to say and when to say it???

After being active locally a few years I jumped into statewide stuff and took a leadership role. Let me tell you that was damn hard! I had 14 counties to work with, each with their own view of what should be done and how we should do it. And we were supposedly on the same team! *sigh*

But here in DU land it is simpler than that.

Julie

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:09 AM

25. "...a serial killer is at less risk of death from the state than a pregnant woman."

And it appears progressives nuns are at greater risk of punishment than child rapist priests.

I knew Francis was continuing the persecution of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious. I was not aware that Francis left Benedict's man, Archbishop Gerhard Mueller, in charge of policy dealing with clergy who sexually abuse minors.  Thanks for the post.

As much as people understandably want to see him as taking the RCC out of the middle ages, it appears to me Francis is the same old evil, but with a gentle face. That is truly a tragedy. The RCC could do so much good in the world, if only it recognized half the world's population as full human beings.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)


Response to ann--- (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:11 AM

37. I haven't seen DUers posting hundreds of threads here and on LBN....

... fawning over the leaders of any other religious organization, much less one that espouses such homophobia and misogyny. If you doubt me, feel free to do a search of all the Pope threads posted between just these two DU fora (GD and LBN) over the past ten months and get back to me. Let me know what score you come up with.
I do have a grip, thanks -- a grip on reality.

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Response to ann--- (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:17 AM

68. Uhm, his position is a political position due to its nature...

 

He's the head of a state, a very small state, but a state nonetheless.

Also, are the examples in the OP examples of how he's showing others to love?

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:48 AM

29. Send your complaints to Bill Maher. He's the only person I've noticed fawning over Francis.

Then again, I don't read most of what is on this huge board.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:55 AM

31. So much for Pope & Change.

I like some things he does, and I don't feel any need to embrace anything else or swallow him whole. Just not how I roll, and I'm not the only one.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:14 AM

32. Yeeees. I think I've changed my mind.


It's not as if Pope Francis is espousing anything more substantive than the ordinary beliefs of millions of liberals all over the world and it's not as if anyone goes around saying liberals are "so fricken awesome".

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:07 AM

36. So since this one guy...

 

... Has yet to turn around the most monolithic agency in the history of mankind within a few years, according to your personal requirements, we should poo poo the good things that he does do?

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #36)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:18 AM

54. Voice of reason. Thank you.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:28 AM

38. "Thread after fawning thread about Pope Francis here": I counted 2 favorable threads, pp. 1-3. And 2

 

con.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:42 AM

43. I would have provided an exact number...

... of Pope threads posted to the main fora over the past ten months, but the search display will only show me the first 250. Sorry about that.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:48 AM

44. Thanks for the research.

I can concede that Francis is an improvement over his predecessors, but he is hardly the Second Coming, as he's been portrayed here. When he embraces women and GLBT as welcome and fully functioning members of his church, with all of the rights and privileges that men and heteros have, then I'll join in singing his praises.

I don't expect change to happen overnight, but I'd like to see some steps in the right direction. It's nice that he kissed a leper, but let's get on with some more substantial changes.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #44)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 08:30 AM

49. Neurofibromatosis1 not a leper.

As a person with NF1 I would like if the correct term was used here. Only trying to educate DUers and I think your point was much like Jesus hung out with lepers.

Please try to understand there are still people out there who still use the name Elephant Man for people like me.


This next sentence is not for SC but for other DUers.
Had this been our president, would folks expect me to dance with joy because he kissed a man with NF?

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Response to ChazII (Reply #49)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:08 AM

51. I'm sorry for my mistake.

I read a headline that Pope had kissed a man with sores, and I assumed it was leprosy. I apologize for being flippant.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:50 AM

45. He's a step in the right direction.

I'm not going to pee in the proverbial bowl of Cheerios over his lack of a total reversal on ALL questionable church standings. Give the guy some time.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 08:55 AM

50. Do you really expect the Catholic Church to change overnight?

It's about where he's coming from. For a pope, he's somewhat liberal.

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Response to treestar (Reply #50)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:14 AM

53. Nope, I don't expect change at all

I just recognize the same old crap wrapped up in a prettier package and promoted with a better ad campaign.

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Response to treestar (Reply #50)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:34 AM

60. 8 months is enough time to completely transform a 2,000 year old institution

and if we look at the history of the Catholic Church, we know that there's no chance of schisms or of his successor undoing all his changes.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:41 AM

61. Conservative Catholics feel left out - NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/us/conservative-us-catholics-feel-left-out-of-the-popes-embrace.html?hp

My reaction to this article - welcome to my world! I'm so F*****G tired of conservatives.

I was raised Catholic - had 12 years of Catholic education. I left it while still in high school and never looked back. This pope had me rethinking my decision - for about 10 minutes.

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:50 AM

62. As far as PR goes, he is the perfect man for their

church. He is serving to get his troops in order and to bring back the wayward flocks. In this, I think his new PR spins are working. As your excellent research has shown NOTHING in that church has changed, it's all smoke and mirrors. When he dies he will immediately be promoted to sainthood and the myth will continue

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Response to theHandpuppet (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:00 AM

64. Bernadette Carol Ann says thank you. NT

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