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Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:13 PM

PETA Is Not the Enemy.

While one can argue about the effectiveness of PETA's methods, it is hypocritical to use this as an excuse to avoid the question of whether to switch to a plant-based diet.

If an organization defended abortion rights by displaying graphic pictures of botched abortions in public places, would that make you anti-choice? If a group went around defending minority rights by showing graphic pictures of lynchings, would that make you join the KKK? Did the Dutch anti-Mohamed cartoons convert you to Islam?

There are three major reasons to switch to a plant-based diet. Many otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people either don't know about these or don't think about them long enough to reconsider their reluctance to switch to a plant-based diet. Here are those reasons.

1. Stop supporting the factory farm industry.
If you buy animal products at a grocery store, you are sending your hard-earned money to the factory-farm industry. As you can read here, "factory farms raise 99.9 percent of chickens for meat, 97 percent of laying hens, 99 percent of turkeys, 95 percent of pigs, and 78 percent of cattle currently sold in the United States." This is an industry that cares about nothing more than its bottom line. They push animals to the absolute breaking point so that they can make a few more pennies on each one. Read more here.

2. Reduce your environmental footprint.
You can reduce your carbon footprint more by switching to a plant-based diet than by switching to a Prius. Animal farming is not only energy-intensive, but it produces significantly more waste than the Earth can handle. Finally, the liberal use of antibiotics on factory farms presents a serious risk of an outbreak of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Read more here, here, and here.

3. Improve your own health.
There is overwhelming evidence that a plant-based diet significantly reduces the rates of cancer and heart disease. Read more here and here.

It may at first seem inconvenient to have to make such a drastic change in one's diet. But any initial resistance you may feel should not stop you from considering the question. My husband and I both switched to a plant-based diet last February after watching Vegucated (available streaming on Netflix). It was much easier than we expected it to be. I've never been happier or healthier. If you'd like to try it, you can get help and ideas from those of us on DU who have done it.

I strongly recommend any omnivores on DU who can deal with having their assumptions challenged to watch Vegucated and to read Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer. Eating Animals is a beautifully written book. Vegucated has a couple of brief graphic parts, but you get a warning beforehand, and you can look away. I looked away, and I still got the message. (Honestly: if you're too sensitive watch graphic videos of animals being slaughtered or put in cages for their entire lives, how can you bring yourself to eat animals? Don't kid yourself: the chicken on your plate, regardless of whether it was advertised as "cage-free" or "free range," came from an animal that was stuffed for its entire life in a space no larger than an 8.5x11-inch sheet of paper. The milk you drink came from a cow that was separated from its calf immediately after it was born. Every time you buy an animal product at your grocery store, you support an industry that cares more about money than about animal welfare, the environment, or your health.)

Think about this issue. You owe it to yourself and to the world you live in.

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Reply PETA Is Not the Enemy. (Original post)
athena Nov 2013 OP
loli phabay Nov 2013 #1
athena Nov 2013 #5
loli phabay Nov 2013 #10
athena Nov 2013 #17
Kingofalldems Nov 2013 #79
loli phabay Nov 2013 #220
JanMichael Nov 2013 #110
loli phabay Nov 2013 #221
cui bono Nov 2013 #237
JanMichael Nov 2013 #251
duffyduff Nov 2013 #228
CFLDem Nov 2013 #211
duffyduff Nov 2013 #230
cali Nov 2013 #2
mike_c Nov 2013 #3
cali Nov 2013 #6
athena Nov 2013 #11
Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #16
athena Nov 2013 #21
Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #25
Beringia Nov 2013 #80
athena Nov 2013 #88
Scout Nov 2013 #89
Beringia Nov 2013 #101
Scout Nov 2013 #122
Beringia Nov 2013 #133
cui bono Nov 2013 #239
jeff47 Nov 2013 #111
Beringia Nov 2013 #113
jeff47 Nov 2013 #139
Beaverhausen Nov 2013 #143
jeff47 Nov 2013 #144
Beringia Nov 2013 #156
yewberry Nov 2013 #213
Mariana Nov 2013 #217
MicaelS Nov 2013 #193
cleanhippie Nov 2013 #231
Scout Nov 2013 #66
Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #155
cui bono Nov 2013 #238
mike_c Nov 2013 #20
nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #185
Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #154
athena Nov 2013 #158
Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #162
athena Nov 2013 #170
Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #171
athena Nov 2013 #197
Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #212
nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #190
athena Nov 2013 #194
nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #196
get the red out Nov 2013 #40
LanternWaste Nov 2013 #121
CrawlingChaos Nov 2013 #123
mike_c Nov 2013 #182
nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #191
cui bono Nov 2013 #242
nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #245
cui bono Nov 2013 #246
nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #247
cui bono Nov 2013 #248
nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #249
CrawlingChaos Nov 2013 #206
mike_c Nov 2013 #232
cui bono Nov 2013 #244
cui bono Nov 2013 #243
Bradical79 Nov 2013 #125
Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #153
cui bono Nov 2013 #240
seabeyond Nov 2013 #4
athena Nov 2013 #18
seabeyond Nov 2013 #24
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OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #225
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OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #82
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CrawlingChaos Nov 2013 #235
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hollysmom Nov 2013 #131
tabbycat31 Nov 2013 #169
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Ranchemp. Nov 2013 #44
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cui bono Nov 2013 #241
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mike_c Nov 2013 #69
Goblinmonger Nov 2013 #63
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stevenleser Nov 2013 #76
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Deep13 Nov 2013 #26
Archae Nov 2013 #27
athena Nov 2013 #52
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athena Nov 2013 #151
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lastlib Nov 2013 #30
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athena Nov 2013 #59
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William769 Nov 2013 #34
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athena Nov 2013 #68
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TBF Nov 2013 #65
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TBF Nov 2013 #91
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nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #147
seabeyond Nov 2013 #161
nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #163
seabeyond Nov 2013 #168
nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #178
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dlwickham Nov 2013 #99
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OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #135
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OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #146
tabbycat31 Nov 2013 #201
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cleanhippie Nov 2013 #229
jberryhill Nov 2013 #233
rdking647 Nov 2013 #253

Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:19 PM

1. i would say they are if you eat meat and dont want to be vegucated

 

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:26 PM

5. I was a big meat eater for a long time.

I used to love rare steak. I had it at least once every two weeks. I had an egg every morning. I also loved sashimi. I thought life wouldn't be worth living without it.

I simply didn't know the facts. I had heard the term "factory farming" but didn't realize how bad it was. And despite being well-read, I was simply unaware of the extent of the waste and antibiotic problem. This is why I think this issue needs to be discussed on DU. I am certain that there are thoughtful meat eaters here who simply don't realize how important this is. It's not their fault: the factory farming industry is doing all it can to hide the truth from its consumers. It's really a shame that environmental organizations don't spread awareness of the issue.

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Response to athena (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:30 PM

10. yeah because people who eat meat are too dumb to know where food comes from, really

 

You know its deer season here right now, once i finish my shifts and go on break and going to go get my two a day to fill my freezer just as my neighbours are doing, i got half a cow in there as well, one i watched grow in the pasture down from my property, also a bunck of coneys that my kids snared and shot, fish we caugjt in the creeks, ponds and the river too. Think i will stick with eating meat thank.you.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:39 PM

17. This post was not aimed at you.

But thanks for responding aggressively nonetheless.

And thanks for calling me "dumb." How civilized of you.

My post was aimed at "thoughtful omnivores" who still contribute to the factory farming industry. I don't care one bit what you choose to eat. If your conscience allows it, go right ahead. I am not "dumb" enough to attempt a discussion with people who would bully those who happen to have an opinion that goes against theirs.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:48 PM

79. Wow. I'm impressed.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #79)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 04:10 AM

220. i have noticed that it does not take much.

 

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:54 PM

110. Didn't get past the topic, eh

The OP didn't mention one word about hunting.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #110)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 04:11 AM

221. i am sure its in the peta manifesto though

 

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #221)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 08:52 PM

237. You say that as if you haven't read it and are assuming.

You know what happens when you assume. You've well accomplished the first two parts.

You can be a meat eater without being an ass about it you know.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #237)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:20 AM

251. We are vegetarians

What the person we are both responding to has managed to miss is that the factory farming cruelty isn't about him.

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Response to athena (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:58 PM

228. It's farming, period, that they object to, because to "use" animals is slavery to them.

 

PETA opposes animal domestication. What would you think would happen if mandatory spay and neuter, a big issue with them, were required everywhere? Well, in 15 or 20 years, there would be no more dogs or cats.

That would please Ingrid Newkirk and her ilk to no end. As for farming not existing never mind the reality of the food chain, and that animals don't respect the "rights" of other animals in the wild.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 10:27 PM

211. Or if you enjoy having pets

 

or are against their kill shelters, or just don't like self-righteous hypocrites in general... The list is endless!

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Response to CFLDem (Reply #211)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 02:00 PM

230. It makes perfect sense for PETA to kill animals if they indeed believe animal domestication

 

should not exist.

That's the dirty secret they don't want you to know about them. The information is out there, and it is from a variety of sources, not just those from any kind big-ag industry.

I hate the outfit because I am pro-animal. They are not. Animals have contributed so much for society, and they enrich our lives in so many ways.

These cretins from PETA would deny us the right to have animals in our lives.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:23 PM

2. good post.

 

though I would have titled it "Nevermind PETA"

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:24 PM

3. folks who insist on telling others how to live their lives...

...are rarely welcome as far as I'm concerned. People who choose not to eat meat, or use products made from other animals, and so on are perfectly free to make those choices, and I applaud them if doing so improves their lives. But telling others how to live, or trying to legislate others' morality, is no different than god-bothering, IMO. No thank you.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:26 PM

6. even better post

 

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Response to mike_c (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:31 PM

11. No one is telling you how to live your life.

My post asks "thoughtful omnivores" to consider your question. Indeed, it is not at all directed at you. The fact that it offends you so much demonstrates how resistant you are to considering facts that might challenge your beliefs.

In my book, bullies are the ones who are not welcome. Bullies are the ones who try to silence people who tell them what they don't want to hear. Bullies are the ones who respond aggressively to polite posts.

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Response to athena (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:38 PM

16. This response is indicative of what I see as arrogance of the vegan/veggie crowd.

This sentence, in particular, makes the assumption that the person has not already considered their beliefs, and is satisfied with their choice:

The fact that it offends you so much demonstrates how resistant you are to considering facts that might challenge your beliefs.


Perhaps they are aware of how their food actually gets to their table, and have decided to eat it anyway. You assume they haven't, and that's arrogant.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:48 PM

21. Your response is indicative of the arrogance of the anti-vegetarians.

Someone who is aware of how their food gets to their table and decides to eat it anyway does not have to contribute to a discussion of factory farming by talking about all the hunted meat in their fridge. That is bullying, pure and simple.

I never assumed that anyone has not considered their beliefs. If someone is cruel enough and heartless enough to continue to eat factory-farmed meat, knowing what the industry does, then I will simply not waste time arguing with such a person, just as I wouldn't waste time arguing with a Tea Party Republican.

As I stated clearly, I was a meat eater who did not know the whole truth about the factory farming industry. Extrapolating that experience to others on this board is empathy, not arrogance. Your tendency to see it as the latter says more about you than it does about me.

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Response to athena (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:52 PM

25. Oh blah blah blah

I have NO idea what you are talking about as far as the hunted meat, but let me just say: Bullying? Jesus christ, why don't you worry about people who are actually getting bullied, not people who assume that their way is the only way and that everyone else is lacking in thought and compassion.

The difference between you and me is that I don't care what you eat. Really, I don't give a flying fig.

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Response to athena (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:50 PM

80. I agree with you 100%

I often feel like straying and eating a hamburger, going back to my childhood memories and ways of eating, but then I think of the endless lines of cows going to the slaughter and the gun shot to their head, and that helps me curb my desire for a hamburger. I don't want to contribute to that kind of cruelty.

I have been planning to do a post on the cows killed for McDonald's, but have not gotten to it yet.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #80)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:01 PM

88. I have such moments, too.

Early on, I read everything I could get my hands on, because I wasn't sure I could stick to it. It happens much less often now. I think that if you eat a good plant-based diet, making sure you get enough calories and fat, you feel satisfied enough that you don't miss the animal products.

I wasn't much of a hamburger lover, but my husband was. We now eat vegan burgers. He says the fixings are what make the hamburger. I've been meaning to try the recipe on this page; you might want to check it out as well.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #80)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:02 PM

89. you do know that whether YOU personally eat the hamburger...

or not, that long line of cows is still going to slaughter. so, you aren't really preventing any cruelty.

until MASSIVE amounts of people go veg/vegan, the suffering will still go on.

but go ahead and feel better about yourself

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Response to Scout (Reply #89)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:26 PM

101. You assume

I am doing it to feel better about myself. I am not. It is a conscience thing. Without a conscience, you are capable of anything. I am sure you have a conscience, a code of morality. I think a person should be responsible for their actions and aware of the consequences or what you are contributing to. I disagree that it does not make a difference, for the cows. If you add up all the hamburgers I would have eaten, it adds up to a few cows. Cows are not slaughtered just for the sake of slaughtering them. Decreased demand for cow meat, means decreased number of cows killed.

Eating meat goes back to our very origins as humans. But factory farming is very recent, along with the large scale cruelty that goes along with it.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #101)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:25 PM

122. "It is a conscience thing."

right, you are doing it so your conscience doesn't bother you.

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Response to Scout (Reply #122)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:33 PM

133. Why is that so hard to believe


What reason do you think I have for not wanting to eat animals?

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Response to Scout (Reply #89)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:07 PM

239. That's the point. To get massive amounts of people to change their eating habits.

As to your last comment and your roll of the eyes, what the hell? Don't you like to do what you know is the "right" thing to do and doesn't it make you feel good about yourself? Do you recycle? Do you turn out lights you aren't using? Do you show consideration to others? Do you care about injustice and try to do something about it?

Do you ever do anything just because it's the right thing to do even if it only makes a difference if everyone does it?

I don't understand what your problem with the poster and with vegetarians is, really. You should be thankful there are people who care enough to change their habits in order to try to help the planet and animals and themselves. Hey, thy healthier people are the less your health insurance costs will be.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #80)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:54 PM

111. Just because you don't emathize with plants, does not mean they are not suffering.

At least the cow was killed quickly.

Raw plants you eat are ground up by your teeth as they release a flood of hormones and other chemicals as they desperately react to the damage. It's very similar to how animal tissues react to damage. As an added bonus, the parts that survive this onslaught get to be slowly dissolved in your stomach acid.

And cooked plants react similarly as they are slowly killed by the heat. About the only exception is fruit, which is designed by the plants for consumption. But we can not live on fruit alone.

The fact is we're not autotrophs. Something has to die for us to survive.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #111)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:03 PM

113. It is not the death

that bothers me, it is the kind of life they have and the kind of machine driven, kind of death they have.

I think hunting for food is fine, unless the animal's population is threatened, like eating whales or eating tuna to extinction.

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Response to Beringia (Reply #113)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:50 PM

139. My point is the kind of death the animals have

is far, far, far, far, far more pleasant than the kind of death plants have when we eat them.

Being shot in the head kills the cow instantly. Being ground by our teeth and then dissolved in acid isn't so quick.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #139)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:59 PM

143. A quick end to a horrible life

The lives of animals in factory farms is unimaginably horrible.

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Response to Beaverhausen (Reply #143)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:59 PM

144. And it's still more pleasant than dissolving in acid. (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #139)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:23 PM

156. Have you actually

empathized with plants, being able to engage in what they are feeling, and reacting to that, or is this an intellectual argument?

Also I would think the plant dies after it is taken away from its own food source, namely the water or the earth where it was living. It is already dead by the time you put it in your mouth.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #111)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:02 AM

213. While I may disagree with the OP, yours is an argument I loathe.

There is no evolutionary/biological advantage for a sessile organism to have developed a pain response. A sessile organism by definition cannot avoid or escape.

Pain is a series of signals within a central nervous system telling an organism that it is being damaged and it should respond, most often by avoiding/escaping. Plants do not have a central nervous system, and they generally have no means to escape or avoid a stimulus.

There is absolutely no scientific basis in interpreting chemical changes in plants as they are damaged as 'pain' or 'suffering.' Plants lack a central nervous system, period.

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Response to yewberry (Reply #213)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:31 AM

217. It's a dishonest argument.

I'm sure the poster already knows about all those differences between plants and animals, and is only pretending to be so ignorant.

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Response to athena (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:41 PM

193. PETA is just another form of religious fanaticism.

Always willing to indulge in another outrageous act in the name of their belief system.

I don't want to be lectured that I'm going to a Biblical Hell because I don't subscribe to a certain Christian or Islamic belief, and I don't want to be lectured I'm going to a secular version of Hell because I don't subscribe to PETAns animal-rights belief system.

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Response to athena (Reply #21)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 02:12 PM

231. One thing is clear, you have nothing but disdain for those who do not chose as you do.

"If someone is cruel enough and heartless enough to continue to eat factory-farmed meat, knowing what the industry does..."


Your mind is made up and set in stone. You have no ability to empathize with those who do not share your point of view. You see those that do not share your point of view as enemies that are actively fighting against your point of view.

And you said all of that in one sentence.


Why would anyone want to even try to have a conversation with someone who hates them so? I'll let your own words answer that.
I will simply not waste time arguing with such a person, just as I wouldn't waste time arguing with a Tea Party Republican.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:27 PM

66. huzzah, Sheldon!! n/t

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:21 PM

155. Jesus Christ on a Merry-Go-Round

I agree with you.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #16)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 08:59 PM

238. What do you think about people who buy from Wal-Mart?

People who support companies who pollute with no care in the world? Who abuse their workers?

Why are you a Democrat posting on a political board? Presumably because you care about things. About injustices, about the environment, etc...

What makes advocating vegetarianism any different than advocating for no GMOs or environmental protection laws?

There is an anger that emerges from meat eaters (I also eat poultry and fish btw, but I eat little enough of all meat/animal products that I don't think I contribute that much to factory farming) against those who argue for vegetarianism is astounding. Why is it there? Why take it so personally? Don't you get that people advocate vegetarianism/veganism for the good of everyone? What's wrong with that? I don't get it.

As to your last question, that's like saying I'm well aware that my clothing is made from slave labor and I'm making a conscious choice to buy it anyway. That's worse than the false arrogance you are attributing to the poster you are replying to.

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Response to athena (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:43 PM

20. I think you misunderstood me....

I wasn't at all offended by your OP. I was responding to your assertion that "PETA is not the enemy." I agree with you that they're not "the enemy," however I find their message misplaced and their methods alienating. My point was that they are free to choose to eat whatever makes them happy, and to use or avoid products they find ethical or unethical, but that they should not attempt to force others to accept those same decisions.

Here's a case that's near and dear to me. I teach undergraduate general zoology, and EVERY year my Dean gets regular phone calls from lawyers claiming to represent PETA demanding that we stop using animal cadavers to teach anatomy and morphology, or requesting annoyance reports detailing our progress toward that end, and so on. It is harassment, plain and simple. We choose to teach zoology this way because we've considered the alternatives-- at length, I can assure you-- and we've decided that this is the best, most effective pedagogy for teaching intro zoology. Yet PETA continues to call, largely because some student members continually make complaints. My point is that they are perfectly free to choose NOT to dissect animals as part of their university course work, but they don't have any business trying to take that option away from others, too.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:20 PM

185. +1

You put it perfectly. Vegetarianism/veganism is a personal (albeit completely acceptable if not laudable) lifestyle choice, not something that should be aggressively pushed on others.

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Response to athena (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:21 PM

154. So when someone bangs on my door to tell me about Jesus and Hell, and I tell them to fuck off

am I being a "bully"?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #154)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:29 PM

158. I did not knock on your door. I posted a thread.

This is a discussion board. If you are not interested in people bringing up topics you might find inconvenient, what are you doing on a discussion board? If you're dead set against changing your diet and are not interested in anyone else's opinion, why would you even read the thread and bother to respond to it?

As for people coming to your door, there are more civilized ways of telling them to leave you alone than to swear at them. Having made phone calls and canvassed for Obama in 2012, I do think that people who swear at political callers and canvassers are bullies. No one likes being yelled or sworn at. It's much kinder to say you're not interested and close the door. You can even mention that you don't appreciate their visit and ask them not to bother you again (although a political campaign would ignore your request). Insulting them doesn't achieve anything and will certainly not prevent future visits.

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Response to athena (Reply #158)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:33 PM

162. You don't have any idea what I eat, do you?

That's the point. The problem a lot of people (not just me) have with proseltyzin'.... well, anyones, is the assumption that "I know better". You don't know me. You don't know what decisions I've made about my health or my diet or how informed I am or am not.

As for people who come to my door and try to lecture me about Jesus, they're not "political callers". And if they choose to ignore the plaque I have, they absolutely deserve a "fuck off". (Actually it would probably be more like a "I could not humanly be less interested, thanks" because I'm far more polite and tolerant than I ought to be, mostly)

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #162)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:45 PM

170. Oh, that's even better!

You're someone who knows all there is to know about the factory farming industry and already follow a plant-based diet, so you are offended by a thread that discusses it! Oh, I'm convinced! How dare I tell you something you know already!

And, of course, it's perfectly all right for you to declare you know better. How dare someone else suggest that they know something you don't know! After all, the reason we go to discussion boards is to avoid discussing anything, and not, under any circumstances, change our minds about any issue!

Thanks for clarifying that you are, indeed, a bully and proud of it. I'll keep that in mind in the future.

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Response to athena (Reply #170)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:49 PM

171. Uh huh.

Here's my bullying advice: Worry about your own fork and your own body. That's why your head is attached to it, and not everyone else's.

And no, I don't follow a strictly plant-based diet. I also don't eat factory farmed meat.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #171)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:58 PM

197. Here is my advice to you.

Avoid telling people what to do. It's condescending. If you don't like my posts, feel free not to read them. Note that there is a convenient "ignore" feature. I have as much right to post here as anyone else about an issue I consider important. It is as harmful to third parties' health to support the factory-farming industry as it is to smoke in public places. There is nothing to be proud of about knowingly supporting an industry that commits torture and cruelty, pollutes the environment for everyone, and puts everyone's health at risk. It is not people who point this out who need to be lectured or told to shut up and mind their own business.

I really couldn't care less about what kind of diet you follow. That's your business, and yours alone. It's interesting that so many people see my OP as telling them how they should eat. So many people clearly responded to this thread without actually bothering to read the OP.

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Response to athena (Reply #197)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 12:43 AM

212. If that many people interpreted your OP that way

dare I suggest that maybe it's your way of expressing yourself that's the problem, and not the problem with a large number of your audience not being able to understand you.

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Response to athena (Reply #170)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:33 PM

190. I think you're taking all this a lot more personally than you should.

Now, I really don't want to insult or belittle you in any way, because I think you have nothing but good intentions at heart. But I also don't think you should take posts like Warren's as any kind of personal rejection.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #190)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:42 PM

194. You're right. I'm a little oversensitive,

especially since I'm really tired at this point. Thanks for the kind words!

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Response to athena (Reply #194)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:49 PM

196. Taking things too personally is always a potential complication of message board use.

Best course of treatment is probably to walk away from the computer for a bit.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:15 PM

40. Yes

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Response to mike_c (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:23 PM

121. Call it 'secular evangelizing' even... we all do that on DU.

"But telling others how to live, or trying to legislate others' morality..."

All politicians and political aficionados do precisely that. Call it 'secular evangelizing' even... as I've had ten times more political rather than religious canvassers come to my door "shoving their point of view down my throat."

Whether they are telling me who to vote for, how to vote or even when to vote... it's all precisely the same thing... only difference is topic.

Something we engage in on DU every second.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:37 PM

123. And if your life choices do a lot of serious harm?

You should never have to encounter information on the consequences of a meat-based, factory farmed diet? Even if you don't care about your own health or the deplorable cruelty involved, there are grave environmental consequences that negatively impact everyone. I don't understand why anyone thinks they have a right to be shielded from those unhappy thoughts.

I'm not perfect, but I want to know what the hell I'm supporting. How are people going to learn to make better choices if the information doesn't get out there? Corporate media sure isn't going to do it.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #123)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:15 PM

182. if *you* are directly harmed by my diet then I certainly want to hear about it....

Otherwise, I'd thank you to assume that I'm intelligent enough and conscientious enough to make informed choices myself. It's one thing to make information available, and quite another to make accusations about other peoples' life styles causing "serious harm." Who gave you the right to make those choices for me? How would you feel if I advocated making all vegetarians do their part to support the beef industry?

As someone else remarked up thread, it seems one of the main differences between you and I is that I don't give a rat's buttocks what YOU choose to eat. Thank you for extending me the same courtesy.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #182)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:37 PM

191. + another one

We all do "harm" to the world - if only in the sense of depleting resources - just by existing. Can we make informed choices RE: reducing our environmental impact? Of course we can, and we should. But it's not as if vegetarians or vegans are magically exempt from these considerations the minute they "switch."

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #191)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:27 PM

242. Who says they are? n/t

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Response to cui bono (Reply #242)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:35 PM

245. Just raising the point that dietary choices don't make anyone special or superior...

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #245)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:39 PM

246. Well the way you made the statement sounded like you thought vegetarians/vegans thought they were

above other environmental concerns or something. I don't remember now exactly what you said and this board doesn't make it easy for me to see while I'm typing a response.

Anyway... it seemed like you were taking a jab. If you weren't, then great.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #246)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:47 PM

247. At vegetarians/vegans generally? Not at all. I get along fine with them IRL.

But a certain minority of them do seem to have an attitude of unearned arrogance or superiority. Which, to be fair, you'll probably find in any group of people.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #247)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 10:08 PM

248. Of course, so why do you bring that up now? n/t



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Response to cui bono (Reply #248)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 10:45 PM

249. To explain my earlier post that you asked about. That's all.

I have no particular negative feelings toward any poster on this thread.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #182)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:39 PM

206. If you consume factory farmed meat, you are doing direct harm to everyone

Much as I would be if I drove a high-polluting vehicle. It is unequivocally true that these industries cause tremendous harm, so your analogy to advocating that vegetarians support the beef industry is nonsensical.

You said "Who gave you the right to make those choices for me?" Clearly, I don't have that right. You're going to eat what you want, regardless of what I think or say. But why do you think you have the right to silence anti-factory-farming activists? Many people will hear that message and make better choices, even if you're not one of them.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #206)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 02:37 PM

232. then I'll just have to tell you the same thing I tell religious fanatics at my front door....

If an action offends you, do not perform it. You are free to eat whatever you wish, as am I. Now please get the hell off my front porch, and have a nice day.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #232)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:32 PM

244. You can do that but you'd be making a false and inaccurate comparison.

You clearly don't know how factory farming harms the environment or you wouldn't compare people speaking out about vegetarianism to people coming to your house trying to convert you to their religion. Two completely different scenarios.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #182)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:29 PM

243. Why does this resonate with you as it does?

Do you feel the same about people advocating for higher wages? For less pollution? Or on a more personal level, for treating others with respect and compassion? For turning out lights you aren't using? For saving water? Are you offended at the same level by any of that?
No one is making choices for you. People speak out about because the world would be better off if people ate a lot less meat. It's a fact.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:51 PM

125. I think that would be a good post

 

If that is what the op was actually doing. It seems like the OP is trying to start some rational discussion, but getting responses related to other people. Sure, the OP probably should have brought this up without even mentioning PETA, but a group making asses of themselves and using ineffective methods doesn't mean the core cause isn't worth discussion.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:20 PM

153. Yep.

Unfortunately it's what some people get up in the morning for.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:18 PM

240. That happens every day on a political board. Why is this wrong?

How many posts on here every day are about legislating something or other, about injustices in life, etc... There's absolutely nothing wrong with advocating vegetarianism just as there's nothing wrong with advocating unions. What's the difference?

The only thing I would say is the poster said a couple things that don't help to have a discussion and maybe that's what you're reacting to? Was/is civil rights a bother to you? Do you think the religious right feels the same way you do when we legislate civil rights? Yet we feel it is completely the right thing to do. It's no different. Vegetarianism would help this planet looking at it environmentally, let alone the needless suffering of animals.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:25 PM

4. i am going to go after anyone that uses racism, sexism and target our children. while doing that,

 

i will support all org and groups that choose alternative diets.

it is not one against the other.

peta gets to own their sexism, racism and targeting kids. they do it purposely. they expect and want attacks. i gotta wonder about the supporters that want to meake them something they are not

but it has nothing to do with animal treatment issues. or a persons personal choice.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #4)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:42 PM

18. Have you considered a plant-based diet?

It is so easy to focus on PETA and avoid the more important issue of factory farming.

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Response to athena (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:50 PM

24. the decision on what i eat has nothing to do with peta. you give them way too much credit. that is

 

the first error in your argument.

peta has nothing to do with what i eat and my issue doing what is best for my body in my health. i would never consider peta when looking at my dietary needs. that is beyond silly. and it tells me you really did not read or think thru my post.

how do you know i do not have a plant based diet? how do you know i know nothing about the factory farm?

that is not what my issue is with peta. and i am well educated on my dietary health and satisfied with the choices i have made.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:41 PM

75. I did read your post. I don't think you read mine, though.

Because my OP was not about PETA but about the factory-farm industry. It was an attempt to point out the hypocrisy of focusing on the messenger rather than the message.

I am not interested in your diet. I couldn't care less, in fact. The question was rhetorical. I was trying to respond to your insistent focus on PETA, when my OP was clearly aimed at shifting the focus away from PETA to the actual issue of factory farming.

The vast majority of people -- even extremely smart people -- can't handle the question of a plant-based diet. I sometimes despair for humanity. Is our taste for meat really so overwhelming that we are willing to condone such cruelty?

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Response to athena (Reply #75)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:31 PM

104. peta is not your enemy. hmmm.....

 

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Response to athena (Reply #75)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:57 PM

112. Seriously?

Because my OP was not about PETA but about the factory-farm industry.

Which is why the very first word in the subject is PETA.

I am not interested in your diet. I couldn't care less, in fact.

Which is why your previous post was asking about her diet.

The vast majority of people -- even extremely smart people -- can't handle the question of a plant-based diet. I sometimes despair for humanity. Is our taste for meat really so overwhelming that we are willing to condone such cruelty?

The fact that you do not empathize with plants does not mean they do not suffer when you eat them. In fact, plant and animal tissues react very similarly to damage.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #112)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:12 PM

120. The suffering of plants? Seriously?

You really think that a plant has the same feelings as a pig? Or that the lettuce you eat is the same as your dog? And you probably consider vegans crazy.

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Response to athena (Reply #120)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:57 PM

142. Yes, seriously.

Raw plants dump out a massive number of chemicals and hormones as they are ground by your teeth. This reaction is very similar to what animal tissues do when damaged. As a bonus, whatever bits manage to survive the grinding get to be killed by slowly dissolving in your stomach acid.

Cooked plants go through a similar cascade of reactions as they are slowly killed by the heat.

The fact that you don't empathize with plants doesn't mean they do not suffer.

You really think that a plant has the same feelings as a pig?

I'm not the one arguing for a particular diet in order to reduce suffering of food.

Btw, that pig suffers far less - it dies instantly when shot in the head at the slaughterhouse, instead of being slowly dissolved in acid or roasted to death.

And you probably consider vegans crazy.

Depends on their reason for that diet.

If they are choosing that diet based on the mistaken belief that plants don't suffer, then they aren't crazy. They just don't know enough about biology.

If they are choosing that diet in order to rub it in the faces of other people, then they are crazy.

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Response to athena (Reply #120)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:36 PM

225. Vegans are sane

Worrying about plants in the same way you do animals .... uh, not so sane lol

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:27 PM

7. peta is an enemy of their own cause. aside from that i dont see peta as the enemy

 

and i definitely find this "our children will be horrified" to be the dumbest objection against peta

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:29 PM

8. PETA is a continual embarrassment to animal rights.

It's not only their positions that are loony -- how many people support their claim that there be no more pets? -- but their actions are often reprehensible.

If you want to support animal rights there are dozens of organizations who don't present themselves as cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

Fuck PETA!

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:30 PM

9. If one's goal is to get people to stop eating meat, maybe PETA IS the enemy.

PETA is making it harder for people with reasonable methods of trying to get people to go vegetarian to even get their argument heard.

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:00 PM

28. I agree that most vegans are not interested in promoting a plant-based diet.

(At least most of the ones on online vegan forums -- I don't actually know any vegans in real life.) As close as I am to being vegan, I don't call myself "vegan" because I am not vegan according to the 1944 definition. Vegan forums, for example, don't allow any discussion of whether it's really better to wear plastic shoes than leather shoes. They seem more interested in keeping people out than drawing people in.

However, the reasons to switch to a plant-based diet are too important to ignore. This issue is too important to leave to vegan organizations, precisely because those organizations don't usually do a good job of spreading the facts. People need to know those facts.

Some people have called me arrogant for assuming that people don't know where their food comes from. It's not arrogant at all to recognize that the factory farming industry has done an excellent job of white-washing itself and keeping the facts from the public.

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Response to athena (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:14 PM

39. My point about PETA is that people will be less willing to listen to the facts

if they're pissing people off with their methods.

Imagine a door to door vacuum cleaner salesperson. For every 100 houses they visit, 10 people let them in to listen to their pitch, and they sell 1 vaccuum. Now imagine that before they got to the house, some loud, obnoxious vacuum cleaner salesperson selling the same thing pissed them off. Now for every 100 houses they visit, maybe 1 or 2 people lets them in to hear the pitch and now they need to visit 500-1000 houses to make a sale.

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #39)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:30 PM

49. I'm not convinced that PETA is doing that much damage.

It seems to me that they just give certain people an additional excuse to avoid the question. Would the people who have been insulting PETA on the other thread have really considered a switch to a plant-based diet if it weren't for PETA? PETA's tactics don't make the issue less important. One might argue that it puts the issue on people's radar screen. That's probably why they do it.

Let me put it this way. Which is worse: PETA or the factory farming industry? Which is more important: PETA or the factory farming industry's abuses of animals, environment, and our health? Which one are we discussing: PETA or factory farming? Is it really all PETA's fault? Would we have been discussing factory farming here if it weren't for PETA? I think that any post on the issue would have sunk like a rock.

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Response to athena (Reply #49)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:40 PM

53. you started a thread to defend peta. going down the replies defending peta. you arent convinced they

 

are doing damage to themselves?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #53)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:54 PM

57. Your post doesn't make sense.

I honestly don't see what you're getting at.

Anyway, I didn't start this thread to defend PETA. I started it because another thread making the same point was hidden because it was too "graphic." I started it because the issue of factory-farming needs to be discussed. It is simply wrong to have a thread attacking PETA, but no thread about the real issue of factory farming. It is not fitting that we should be supporting factory-farming on a liberal board like this one. It's depressing that liberals are so unconcerned with factory farming. This should be one of the major issues out there. I tried to make this point in my post, but few people appear to have actually read it.

If you absolutely have to focus on PETA, then go right ahead. PETA is the enemy! We must all hand over our money to the factory-farming industry and stuff ourselves with factory-farmed animal products until PETA goes down! Yum yum!

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Response to athena (Reply #49)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:54 PM

82. If PETA spent as much money on saving animals as they do their insane

advertising, they could make a difference. Instead we have an organization that makes animal rights advocates look like complete crack heads. They turn more people off with their extreme ways of spreading their "message" than anything else. Do you have any idea how much they have hurt the cause by being the attention whores they are? I hate nothing more than animal abuse and neglect, and how some farm animals are treated - but PETA have no clue how to attract a wider audience because most rational people know that their tactics are disgusting and counter productive. I hate the way they conduct themselves while promoting something I have a lot of passion for. You might think what they are doing is great and all, but they're driving the cause into the ground. I don't understand why you can't see that? If you want to educate people on becoming vegetarian/vegan, that's fine. My advice is to do so with those open to learning about it and get the hell away from PETA. Don't you see how many people just in this thread who cannot stand this organization? It's dominating the entire conversation because that's just how offensive they are. You say they aren't the enemy, but I consider any organization that alienates most rational thinking people from even wanting to learn, then they are the enemy to me because they sabotage a cause that's extremely important to me.

Talk to people who are willing to change their diet, help to change the way these farms are run and help animals in need, but find an organization who knows how to unite people to a common cause. PETA is not the way.

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Response to OwnedByCats (Reply #82)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:59 PM

86. Great post.

 

Thanks.

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Response to OwnedByCats (Reply #82)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:44 PM

109. I don't think PETA does as much damage as people here claim.

Years ago, people were outraged at one of their ads, in which they showed a woman's lower body with fur in place of pubic hair. Feminists were outraged. As a feminist, I wasn't impressed. However, that didn't make me reject the message years later when I watched Vegucated. So, in my case, at least, PETA didn't discourage me from switching to a plant-based diet. (I actually got a very good vegan flan recipe from their web site.)

Here, they explain that they use shock tactics because they would otherwise be ignored by the media. Knowing how powerful the factory farm industry is, I have a hard time disagreeing with this. They claim that their tactics have increased their membership. I believe them. After all, why would they do something if it really hurt the cause?

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Response to athena (Reply #109)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:08 PM

129. I'm sorry, I just don't agree

with their reasoning. What good is media attention when it offends people? They should be trying to get the message out to those that may not realize what is going on, but rational people are going to tune them out and chalk it up to just another extreme propaganda organization. I do applaud your passion for the subject, I really do. I just think your efforts would be best served with other organizations that spread awareness, but in a proper fashion. Their latest stunt seems like a secret indoctrination of children in the extreme. If I was going to educate children about the subject, I would not go to those lengths. When I was growing up, my mother taught me to be respectful of animals but she would never have dreamed in a million years to teach me in the manner PETA is trying to do. It would have upset me greatly. It didn't take extreme images for me to learn the importance of treating animals the right way. I think my mother did a wonderful job because I am so hard core against cruelty, but I wasn't shocked into those values. I know that not all parents do this at home, but I just think there is a better way, without trying to traumatize children and upset parents in the process.

I have other issues with PETA which is separate from their ad campaigns, so it runs deeper than just that. It's hard for me to support some of the things they do. They have the right message, being against cruelty, but their delivery system is hugely flawed. I hope you don't take this personally, my anger is directed at them, not you.

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Response to OwnedByCats (Reply #129)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:26 PM

132. OK.

First of all, I really appreciate your tone. I don't find your posts offensive or hurtful at all. This is a discussion board, after all, and any topic worth discussing will draw disagreeing voices. (If we didn't believe in dissent, we wouldn't be liberals.)

My goal in this thread was not to defend PETA. There was an anti-PETA thread out there, which attacked PETA with harsh language, without mentioning anything about the more important issue of factory farming. A separate thread tried to address this but was hidden for technical reasons. Since my thread was in response to the anti-PETA thread, I started it by pointing out that PETA is not the real enemy. Indeed, I'm sure that even people who don't like PETA's tactics would agree that, in the grand scheme, PETA is not worse than the factory farm industry.

Currently, I support the Humane Society. The reason I chose to support them rather than PETA was that I believe, like you, that a gentler tone is more effective. However, I am intrigued by PETA's claim that they grew their membership through shocking ads. I will look into this over the weekend, keeping in mind your points as well as others that were made. Thanks for the discussion!

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Response to athena (Reply #132)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:00 PM

145. Well when it comes to this subject

I can be a little over the top, I know. I think you're genuine in your beliefs and I understand why PETA can seem appealing. Not all their ads are bad. Sometimes it's just a simple ad educating about something like not leaving your dog in the car when it's hot, unfortunately some people still do that. At my State Fair just this past summer, someone did that, unfortunately by the time the dog was noticed, she had died. I don't know what possesses people to do that.

I'll tell you about something I saw in a Canadian video (I live about an hour and half from Canada so we picked up a couple of Canadian channels on TV) when I was about 9 years old. I already hated cruelty or seeing an animal suffer, but what I saw was traumatizing. It was a short video about a certain trap hunters used there that they wanted outlawed. I can't remember what it was called, but it was the sort of trap that gradually tightens on the animal over time. They actually showed animals being trapped in this video, and I had to see them suffer. I was mortified and devastated. I know this was more graphic than PETA's picture of the turkey, but it upset me greatly. Another reason I'm overly sensitive is at 16 I actually witnessed someone who did something awful to an animal and it has stayed with me ever since. That further traumatized me. As I said, I was firmly against cruelty before these events, but the video and what I witnessed as a teen, made me so sensitive about it that I get very distressed. It's something I could have done without.

So again, I appreciate what you're trying to do - your message is good. I just think mentioning PETA takes away from that message. I'm glad you give support to other places too. I very much appreciate any help you provide.

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Response to OwnedByCats (Reply #145)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:31 PM

188. Not being a psychologist, I can't with any credibility state

that the ad won't traumatize any children. It just didn't seem very likely to me, since kids' cartoons and fairy tales are full of the most horribly cruel and violent acts. But you seem to be a case in point that kids can feel traumatized. Thanks for explaining that. I agree that, at least with respect to the Thanksgiving ad directed at kids, PETA may have done more harm than good.

I don't currently support PETA. I'm considering supporting them but will think about it further before doing so. (Sometimes, if you support an organization, you have more influence with them. Organizations usually pay more attention to what their paying members think than what non-paying critics think, since they can never tell whether a critic would have ever supported them under any circumstances.) At the very least, I need to sleep on it for a few days, since this thread has been a bit of an intense experience for me!

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Response to athena (Reply #188)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:24 PM

203. I don't think their supporters are bad

people, and certainly not all their employees are either. I can understand why they think they need to be extreme to get attention to their message, but it's not going to resonate with those who find it offensive and I fear it hurts the cause. There have been a lot of allegations of wrong doing, some are a matter of record, some could be just fabrications. I would say do some more research about the organization, see if any of it makes sense to your mind or not. Not all their ads are offensive, like the one I saw in the TV Guide today, was fine (promoting going vegan), there was nothing offensive about it, I just wish they did that all the time!

Anyway as I said, you're a good person, you genuinely care about protecting animals and for that I appreciate you. I wish more people took it this seriously!

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Response to OwnedByCats (Reply #145)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 04:18 PM

235. I can relate to that

What you wrote about lasting pain and trauma from seeing images of tortured animals. I know exactly what you mean, and it doesn't go away. Now I know I have to be careful not to watch graphic footage or I will be a non-functional mess.

But what I suffered is nothing compared to what the animal suffered and I recognize the priority is to get the information out there, so positive action can take place. Even though you and I may be extremely sensitive, there are a lot of people out there who desperately need to be sensitized to such cruelty. If we hide the brutality - sweep it under the carpet - nothing will ever change.

Same with the obscene wars. If it were up to me, the public would have to see graphic images on their televisions every night of exactly what their tax dollars are supporting, much as they did during the Vietnam era - and back then it made people push back. TPTB have learned that if you sanitize the graphic truth from the public, they stay complacent.

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Response to CrawlingChaos (Reply #235)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:15 AM

250. I understand what you mean

I wouldn't have a problem if PETA did show graphic videos or pictures of actual cruelty, which I know they have in the past. The ASPCA and Humane Society do it all the time. I can't bear to watch them, so I don't because I'm already passionate about it, but I hope it inspires others to get involved. My problem with PETA is the way they try to raise awareness. It has made a lot of people turn away from them. For example, telling pregnant women that if they eat chicken, and they are expecting a boy, they will end up lacking in the genitalia department. I don't know what study they are referring to, but I've never heard of such a thing. A lot of pregnant women eat chicken. There is either an awful lot of men out there who are smaller than average, or PETA is having a joke. I don't know, maybe I should take a poll, ask all the men if their mother ate chicken while pregnant and state what their size is, see if there is a correlation there lol.

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Response to athena (Reply #49)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:18 PM

131. They certainly have turned me off

with their killing of pets deliberately in North Carolina granted it was 15 years ago, but still sickens me
killing any animal left on their doorstep by people who don't know their stand on pets.
Killing lab and farm animals by setting them free in the wild. Remember when they freed all the turkeys on the turkey farm and bred turkeys drown in rain and can't feed themselves? or animals from a lab that had bgeen raised in cages and could not fend for themselves?
They claim to save animals and spend a lot of money on self promotion
they attack people without hearing the whole story, like one person who accidentally ran over their cat and were very distressed about it became a target for them. there have been others, they even threw blood at one woiman wearing fake fur because it still looked like fur even though they knew it was fake, claimed she was promoting the wearing of fur - I think it was fake blue fur, endangering all those blue fur animals.

I would never give these people a dime, what ever good they do, they do stupid things to cancel it out.

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Response to athena (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:43 PM

169. Most vegans I know (personally)

Are interested in promoting a vegan diet and it's almost like a religion to them. I've been yelled at and given nasty looks by vegan friends for eating animal products in front of them (what they eat is their business, what I eat is mine). We were at a restaurant so it's not like I was serving it to them.

I personally eat a lot of plants, but 90% of my protein comes from meat and dairy. I know this and I know what foods I like, I have stomach issues with, and my sensitive teeth cannot handle. You can tell me to eat stuff I like all I want, but if you don't like it eating is not a pleasant experience.

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Response to tabbycat31 (Reply #169)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:07 PM

172. That's too bad that your vegan friends are insensitive.

Not knowing any vegans, I can't say anything about them. My vegetarian friends were very sensitive about my choices when I was still an omnivore. My husband and I follow a totally plant-based diet, for the purposes of boycotting the factory farming industry and reducing our environmental footprint. We go out with omnivores all the time and don't have a problem if they eat meat. If they ask us why we don't eat animal products, we try to explain it to them as gently as possible (because it's hard to go into details when people are eating). However, I think it's important for omnivores to be sensitive, as well, and not make a big deal out of eating animals. It's kind of hard to watch someone eating a chicken when you have read a lot about the chicken-farming industry.

I do wish more people would reduce their consumption of animal products. It would reduce environmental degradation as well as the risk of a pandemic. I'm not sure why it's OK to be against smoking and SUVs, but not OK to be against the factory-farm industry. Why are we supposed to pretend that there is nothing wrong with supporting the factory-farm industry, and that it's perfectly OK to eat factory-farmed animal products?

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Response to athena (Reply #172)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:02 PM

198. Are you vegetarian or vegans

I was under the impression that you are vegan but you just said you did not know any.

I can see if I was entertaining at home (which I rarely do) and I was serving a family style dinner where everyone ate the same thing (I try to respect special diets there--- there's one stir fry that I will make with veggie stock instead of chicken stock if I am having vegetarians over) but at a restaurant it's a free for all. Granted I would not choose a steakhouse when I'm out with vegans, but a place that has something for everyone.

I wish I could afford more organic proteins, but it's simply not in the budget for me. I don't eat meat much, but i pretty much live off of dairy (I would say 75% of my protein consumption is dairy and giving it up would be next to impossible for me).

I am in no way supportive of the factory farm industry. Last year, I worked to try and get an organic farmer elected to Congress. I think many more people would be supportive of organic and sustainable foods if they were not more expensive than regular foods. There's a reason Whole Foods earned the nickname Whole Paycheck. In a day and age where wages are not keeping up with inflation, most can't afford higher grocery bills.

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Response to tabbycat31 (Reply #198)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:18 PM

199. We are technically not vegan.

Our diet is almost 100% plant-based. If I'm at a restaurant and I ask for spaghetti with tomato sauce, and it comes with some shredded cheese on top of it, I won't say anything. I'll just eat it, because complaining or not eating it won't accomplish anything. Also, I use leather, wool, and down, because the alternative is plastic, and it seems to me that plastic does a lot of harm to animals and the environment. So I'm not "vegan" according to the 1944 definition, which is the only definition the vegan community (at least online, since I have never met a vegan in person) accepts.

My husband will also put real milk in his coffee at cafes and restaurants if there is no soymilk or almond-milk alternative. Every now and then when we eat out, he'll have a pizza with a little bit of cheese on it. So his diet is almost totally plant-based, but not in a purist or religious way.

We don't worry too much about whether restaurants use chicken stock in their apparently-vegetarian dishes. It's just too hard. I'm not sure that there is that much practical difference between eating 99% plant-based and 100% plant-based. That's why I'm careful to say I follow a plant-based diet rather than saying I'm vegan. I've read posts by others on DU who are similarly almost-vegan. I wish the (online) vegan community were more accepting of those of us who aren't religious about veganism. I think the goal should be to reduce animal suffering and environmental damage, not to define some people as pure and others as impure.

It sounds like you're doing a lot! I don't think it helps to judge anyone who is doing their best. Let me just mention that my husband and I used to spend a lot more as omnivores, especially when we went out. The vegetarian option on the menu is almost always the least expensive one. As for protein, we get most of our intake from beans, which are also inexpensive. We buy dried beans, which I think taste better. And they're full of iron and protein. It takes a while for one's system to adjust to eating beans, though.

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Response to athena (Reply #199)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:29 PM

204. The online vegan community does not exactly help their cause

And I'm judging from some posts on DU (there was one a few weeks ago that said that everyone should be raw organic vegan) and some of my vegan FB friends.

My best friend was vegetarian for about a year. At that point, his friend (who went vegetarian with him and they held each other accountable) went vegan and she was a religious vegan (think of the fundamentalist Christian who tries to convert people walking down the street type). His response was to eat a bacon cheeseburger.

The non negotiable to me is real milk (from a cow). I absolutely despise it when places that serve coffee try to force the full of HFCS creamers on you. I'd rather buy a jug of milk there than use that stuff (I eliminated HFCS from my diet).

I do like beans, but my stomach not as much. I can eat them in small doses, but if I'm going to be out in public, I do not and do everyone I'm around a favor. If I could eat more beans without the consequences that the 2nd grade poem talks about ('beans beans, they're good for your heart...') then I would.

For now it's canned though because I'm living in a hotel (I'm on a work assignment) and only have a kitchenette instead of a full kitchen.

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Response to tabbycat31 (Reply #204)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:41 PM

207. See, that's the thing.

If you're traveling, or if your job forces you to eat out most of the time, it's just too hard to switch to a totally plant-based diet. It's possible to be healthy on a plant-based diet, and it's even easy, but only if you can cook at home most of the time. The choices available at restaurants are not varied enough to provide you with the nutrients you need, if you're always eating out.

I can't recommend canned beans, because the lining of the cans contains PBA, which is bad for infants and baby animals.

If you want to be adventurous, try some Silk soymilk in your coffee instead of milk (the "original" kind, in the red container). My husband thought he'd never give up milk in his coffee, even at home, but he loves Silk. He doesn't put sugar in his coffee, and Silk "original" provides just enough sweetness for him.

In my case, it took me about a month or two to adjust to beans. What happens when you switch to a plant-based diet as suddenly as I did is that the bacteria in your gut are the ones that process animal products, not the ones that digest plants. It takes some time for the plant-digesting bacteria to move in. At least, that's my theory.

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Response to athena (Reply #207)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:49 PM

209. I'm a political staffer and on the road for months on end

Though this Extended Stay America that I'm living at now (it was cheaper than an apartment on a short-term lease) has a stovetop and microwave, I just don't have the time to cook. My days are often 12 hours and this is the only position I've had where I was not working 7 days a week. I eat out way too often, but lately my meals have been Trader Joe's veggie lasagna (frozen foods section) which is vegetarian (not vegan) and quite delicious.

I just can't bring myself to have a milk out of anything that is not a cow. It's been ingrained in my mind since childhood that milk comes from a cow and I just can't see anything from a plant as milk (with the exception of coconut milk since the coconut itself is filled with it and it's not processed). Maybe one day I'll try coconut milk in my coffee.

Even though I love to cook, I pretty much gave it up for my party and causes bigger than myself. When I go home in a few weeks for Thanksgiving, one of the first things I want to do is cook something not in a microwave.

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Response to tabbycat31 (Reply #209)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 10:00 PM

210. Coconut milk isn't so good for you.

It's filled with saturated fat. It would be as healthy as putting butter in your coffee, so I can't recommend it. If you can't stand anything but real milk in your coffee, just stick with it, and don't feel guilty about it.

That's really cool about how you're a political staffer! I hope to one day also have the opportunity to work on a cause bigger than myself. Thanks for all your hard work! Maybe one day in the far future you'll be in a position to consider a more plant-based diet, but until then, if I were you, I would just focus on taking good care of yourself.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:33 PM

12. People who avocate against animal cruelty shouldn't

shoot themselves in the foot and cut their own noses off to spite their face.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:04 PM

29. I agree. But does that make the issue less important?

The fact is that an anti-PETA thread has been getting tons of posts and recs since last night. PETA is just an organization. It does not even represent the entire vegan movement, let alone the anti-factory-farm movement. Why is it that people choose to focus on PETA rather than the actual issue?

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:33 PM

13. I'm sure glad early humans didn't swtich to a plant based diet a million years ago-

 

We wouldn't be communicating over the Intertubes LOL...

That might make some folks happy though, we should still be hanging out in the grasslands grazing all day. Hold on, I just figured out PETA's GOAL!

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:09 PM

33. The world we live in today is very different from the one humans lived in a million years ago.

At that time, meat was an important source of high calories. Meat-eating tribes had an advantage compared to non-meat-eating tribes, since they ingested more calories and could thus have more children. Today, though, most people ingest too many calories. There is no reason to continue to eat meat just because our ancestors did. Indeed, omnivores today eat much more animal products than our ancestors did. They ingest too much protein, which leads to all kinds of health problems.

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Response to athena (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:25 PM

44. "There is no reason to continue to eat meat just because our ancestors did."

 

I find this statement pretty arrogant, besides providing the calories, a steak, cooked medium rare, is damned tasty.

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Response to Ranchemp. (Reply #44)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:41 PM

54. You ignore the message and insult the messenger.

I am not an arrogant person. What I stated is obvious. You can't deal with it, so you attack the messenger.

Go ahead and eat factory-farmed animal products. That makes you so superior and so non-arrogant!

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Response to athena (Reply #54)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:45 PM

55. I don't eat factory farmed animals,

 

all the meat I eat is hunted by me and my wife, which PETA is against, we raise our own chickens for eggs and food, which PETA is against, we keep several animals as pets, which PETA is against, ergo, PETA is my enemy.

And your statement was arrogant IMO.

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Response to Ranchemp. (Reply #44)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 09:22 PM

241. Talk about arrogant. Meat eaters just love to flaunt their meat eating in veggie threads.

That is both thoughtless, insensitive and mean. Is that how you want people to act towards you?

I see nothing arrogant in the statement you quoted. But you responded by being an ass. Why?

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Response to cui bono (Reply #241)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:35 AM

252. Who cares if YOU saw nothing arrogant in the statement I quoted?

 

I did and I answered as I saw fit and I could care less how people act towards me.
If you believe I'm being an ass, so be it, go ahead and believe that.

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Response to athena (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:33 PM

69. human digestive systems have NOT evolved away from omnivory....

They simply haven't. It is just as biologically viable to include meat in one's diet as it has ever been. And please to not assume the right to make cultural/social choices for others.

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:10 PM

63. I'm sure glad early civilizations were OK with slavery

 

because we wouldn't be communicating over the Intertubes LOL

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #63)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:28 PM

67. That may be the dumbest analogy I've read in at least six months

 

FYI

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #67)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:58 PM

85. We don't need either now

 

We don't need slaves as the basis for our economy or labor pool and we certainly don't need animal protein for the protein needed for mental and physical development. Did they need them in the past? Yes. Caveat: the ancient civilizations that relied on slavery would have still existed with out slavery, of course, but I think you would be hard pressed to argue they would have fostered as they did without it.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #85)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:08 PM

92. Need has nothing to do with it,

 

I don't NEED to eat meat, but I chose to do so, others chose not to.
It's all about choice.

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Response to Ranchemp. (Reply #92)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:11 PM

95. My original response that started this

 

was that we needed meat to be at the point we are now. I'm saying that is irrelevant. We don't need it. If you want to argue choice, we can.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #85)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:06 PM

116. I wonder why then, vegans are always on the hunt

 

for the perfect replacement for something that is comparable to the missing animal proteins in their diets?

I understand the preferance to NOT eating animal proteins for some people, but lets not pretend that we are cows either. There is a component to healthy human eating that includes certain types of amino acids (proteins), that are essential for long term good health. The hunt for the perfect replacement continues.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #116)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:08 PM

117. Yes

 

there are amino acids you need to be very careful to get. Point is you can get them. It isn't that hard if you are conscious of it. Is it easier to just eat meat and not have to worry about it? Probably. Doesn't mean we have to eat meat. You can get everything you need elsewhere without having to fret about it all day long.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #63)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:41 PM

76. You really should research before you make such crazy analogies. An animal protein diet

 

was shown to be essential in the rapid evolution of the human brain and human intelligence.

Slavery has no such place in human development.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #76)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:56 PM

83. You're really going to claim

 

that without slavery, cultures vital to our advancement of so many things would have fostered like they did? Egyptians, Ottomans, Roman, Greece?

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #83)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:00 PM

87. Yes. Percentage wise, few people in any of those cultures owned slaves. It wasn't necessary

 

for the advancement of human civilization or human biology.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #87)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:09 PM

93. Not arguing biology

 

But their economy was certainly reliant on it and shitty economy certainly means those civilizations aren't advancing like they did.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:35 PM

14. I never considered PETA an enemy

I would use other descriptions- misguided, arrogant, hypocritical, self-absorbed, fanatic.... I could go on.

Meat is a part of an omnivore's diet. It would be healthier if it were a small part of our diet. Wanting that meat to be healthy and come from animals raised and processed humanely is a good thing. PETA however does not advance that goal IMO.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #14)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:20 PM

41. I agree about PETA's tactics being of questionable value.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has switched to a plant-based diet, or even just reduced their meat intake, because of a PETA ad. PETA's tactics may have made fur less fashionable, though.

These days, when I see a child eating chicken at a restaurant, I feel sorry for the child. Considering how antibiotic- and bacteria-laden factory-farmed chicken is, it's extremely irresponsible of parents to feed their children chicken. That's what the PETA ad made me think of.

PETA is not the only organization out there. The Humane Society has done really good work to get pig gestation crates banned in certain states. The Vegetarian Resource Group is also good. I look forward to the day when veganism as a movement becomes more inclusive and more flexible. But no one should allow their disapproval of PETA's ads to turn them off of considering a plant-based diet. On other issues, people don't confuse the organization with the issue. Why do they do so when it comes to PETA and the switch to a plant-based diet?

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Response to athena (Reply #41)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:30 PM

47. To answer your question...

I think it is human illogic. They are so offended by PETA's tactics that they will do the opposite out of spite; not to mention most people like meat.

PETA may have had some effect on fur but I doubt it was throwing blood and red paint around. I think ads with naked women titillated and caught people's attention. It caused an awareness of where that chinchilla coat came from and what happened to the creatures that provided the fur. Not to say you need naked women to make every point, but shock tactics tend to backfire. Education is slow but reliable.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:38 PM

15. PETA is its own worst enemy

 

And the topics you cite above ARE discussed here. Continually.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:43 PM

19. I don't think the cult group PeTA is the problem either since I'm an omnivore...

 

PeTA seems to pose more of a problem to those promoting a non-meat lifestyle who are concerned with that group's tactics, as they should be.

One proprietor of a vegetarian/vegan restaurant told me of you serve good food, in quantity, at an affordable price, they will come. "They" being non-vegetarians. Another proprietor took a survey of her customers and found 85% of them were omnivores. Therein is the best way to convert folks to vegetarian diets: Good, affordable food to fill you up. Works every time.

As for me, I took a deer who was living wild on nature's offerings, screwing, sleeping in the sun, fighting and evading predators. Except this one.
He will fill half my freezer, but hunting season is not yet over!

The vegetarian cause is in good shape, though it should give more attention to what it does to the natural countryside by its use of agricultural abstractions called farms.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:48 PM

22. Peta is not my enemy - they are yours if you're interested in increasing veganism






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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:13 PM

38. Pretty much my thoughts on the matter.

 

I understand their tactics, going for shock value to make points about animal cruelty and meat, but groups like the Humane Society or the ASPCA are far less nuts when it comes to messaging.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #38)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:53 PM

81. I support the Humane Society.

They do really good work.

I don't support PETA. My OP was not defending PETA. It was an attempt to point out that the real enemy is the factory-farming industry, not PETA. The way to defeat the factory-farming industry is to boycott it. The easiest way to do so is to switch to a plant-based diet.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:49 PM

23. If only there were an issue that PETA and Code Pink could work together on...

That would be awesome².

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:19 PM

152. oh shit!



vaht?

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:20 PM

200. Certainly it would draw a hell of a lot of attention, if nothing else...

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 12:57 PM

27. That OP is very condescending.

"You can't live happily ever after unless you stop eating animals!"

PETA is a group of radicals, who will not be satisfied until even having a dog or a cat is outlawed.

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Response to Archae (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:38 PM

52. You're reading condescension into it.

There is no condescension there. I said that I have been happier and healthier since I switched to a plant-based diet. That is a fact. Stating a fact is not condescending. I never said, "You can't live happily ever after unless you stop eating animals."

If you choose to eat animals, go right ahead. I have faith in my fellow humans. I sincerely believe that few people are so cruel that they can go on eating factory-farmed animal products, knowing what factory farming truly entails.* Condescending people think they are superior. I never said I am superior to anyone, nor do I think I am.

I suspect you choose to read condescension into my post because you wanted to focus on something other than the message.

* There are exceptions: if someone is very poor, or going through a difficult situation, or is in a difficult place (e.g., a graduate student or a single mother), then they may not be able to immediately switch to a plant-based diet. However, such a person would not reject the message outright, or, worse yet, attack the messenger.

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Response to athena (Reply #52)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:37 PM

134. So what makes you think *anyone* is going to "immediately switch to a plant-based diet"?

That may be why people are reading arrogance and condescension into your posts.

Otherwise, I have no real objection. I think most of us could stand to cut down on our meat - especially red meat - consumption. I'm an omnivore, like most human beings, but generally I don't eat red meat more than a couple times a week, for both health and environmental reasons.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #134)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:18 PM

151. Some people do. I did. But that's not what I said.

What I said was that a person in a difficult situation may not be able to immediately switch to a plant-based diet (even if they really want to). What I expressed previous to that statement is my belief that if people really knew what goes on in factory farms, they would want to switch immediately. That's what happened to me.

Before that, I had heard about factory farming. I thought I knew what it was. I didn't realize how little I knew. When I talk to friends and neighbors, I can see that they have no idea. The industry keeps its secrets hidden. But what happens is this: one day, when you're able to handle it, you look into it. At that point, there is no going back. So, no; I don't expect anyone to read this thread and go vegan on the spot. Change usually takes time.

I realize that not everyone reacts the way I did. However, I don't think it's arrogant or condescending to think that some people might.

We are not really in disagreement at this point. Let me mention, though, that red meat is not the worst kind of meat. If your goal is to reduce animal suffering, it's better to eat less white meat (poultry and port). Chickens and pigs are the animals that are treated the worst by the factory-farming industry. Cattle at least get to roam around for a while.

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Response to athena (Reply #151)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:23 PM

157. Reducing unnecessary cruelty would be nice. Also a decreased impact on the environment.

So yeah, I do think we Americans should eat less meat in general.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:06 PM

30. I have no problem with People Eating Tasty Animals!

"If it scream, it not food--yet........."

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Response to lastlib (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:11 PM

35. Ugh.

 

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Response to lastlib (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:01 PM

59. Go on and hand over your money to the factory-farm industry, then.

I'm sure they appreciate that you advocate for them so passionately!

ETA: This is not about the philosophical question of whether we should eat animals. The issue here is factory farming. If you are an omnivore in the U.S. today, then you eat the products of the factory farming industry. Unless you hunt/grow and slaughter your own animals and never buy an animal product at a grocery store, you are supporting the factory-farming industry. If I were someone who didn't feel concerned in the least about that, I'm not sure I'd brag about it on the internet.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:07 PM

31. Yeah, they are the enemy.

 

They condemn hunting, which I do to put meat on my table, the condemn the owning of pets, of which I have many.

AFAIC, PETA can go fuck themselves and I will always view them as the enemy of me.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:07 PM

32. I love PETA's message. I actually agree with much of what they have to say.

 

I just hate their tactics.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:10 PM

34. Please stop beating a dead horse (no pun intended)

PETA screwed up period. Just get over it and move on.

Eat meat don't eat meat, who the hell really cares? If you want to great! If you don't want to that great also!

Heres a little hint that I know will get ignored but here it is anyways. It's not the message, it's the messenger.

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Response to William769 (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:33 PM

50. The messenger fucked up the message

 

...PETA lacks too much credibility to speak on behalf of anyone while advocating the personal dietary restriction of everyone.

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Response to William769 (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:48 PM

56. Because it's already tenderized enough!

 

Sorry...had to. Besides, I'm a pescatarian...no horsemeat for me!

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Response to William769 (Reply #34)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:58 PM

58. Really? It's not the message?

So you are deeply offended by PETA's tactics? And yet you're not offended by the factory-farming industry's tactics? You're happy handing over your hard-earned money to an industry that puts your health at risk and harms the environment for you and your grandchildren?

Do you also decide your position on other issues based on whether you agree with the tactics of every single organization out there that works on that issue? (PETA, after all, is only a single organization. It's not even the main anti-factory-farming organization).

Wow. Just wow.

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Response to athena (Reply #58)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:02 PM

60. Now I think I may have targeted the wrong messenger.

Oy vey.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:11 PM

36. When it turns so many people off, yes it is. They are a sideshow. Attention whores.

 

And they allow the topics you mention to get sidetracked into extremist crap like not owning pets etc.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:12 PM

37. I eat plant-based and don't like PETA.

I don't like that they euthanize those pets* they claim to be saving.

I don't like that they ask you to trade your objectification of animals in for your objectification of women.

I don't like their shock and scare tactics. Strange to claim to be so worried about animals when they don't treat people very nicely.

They totally miss the point.

Vegans, vegetarians, and plant-based diets may not be the enemy, but PETA is a messenger that kills the message.

*Edited first link due to valid objection by Archae: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-j-winograd/peta-kills-puppies-kittens_b_2979220.html

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Response to StrayKat (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:21 PM

42. Your first source is a shill for corporations.

A lawyer named Richard Berman who takes millions from corporations and sets up "activist" astro-turf groups.

"PETA Kills Animals is a project of the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF), a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the full range of choices that American consumers currently enjoy."


The Center for Consumer Freedom is a nonprofit corporation run by lobbyist Richard Berman through his Washington, D.C.-based for-profit public relations company, Berman & Co. The Center for Consumer Freedom, formerly known as the Guest Choice Network, was set up by Berman with a $600,000 “donation” from tobacco company Philip Morris.

Berman arranges for large sums of corporate money to find its way into nonprofit societies of which he is the executive director. He then hires his own company as a consultant to these nonprofit groups. Of the millions of dollars “donated” by Philip Morris between the years 1995 and 1998, 49 percent to 79 percent went directly to Berman or Berman & Co.

http://www.consumerdeception.com/index.asp

I don't know if the information about PETA and their shelters is accurate, but you need a better source.

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Response to StrayKat (Reply #45)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:37 PM

51. Far better.

Richard Berman's astro-turf group isn't even mentioned, and those puppies and kittens in the second article, well, I had to stop looking, I was getting enraged.

And the PETA people lie about their roving death squads and death camps.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:24 PM

43. I notice republicans such as Cavers and freepers hate them--

So they can't be all bad, that's for sure.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:30 PM

46. I support PETA on most of their issues,

but sometimes they are a bit over the top.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:30 PM

48. PETA is almost

like the Left's version of those religious nuts on the Right. Just like the religious nuts, they're too busy basically trying to control other people's lives and are intolerant of other people's personal choices (in this case, it would be people's choice to eat meat and to wear fur). The religious nuts shut down abortion clinics in order to force people to live by their standards, and PETA dumps paint on people's expensive clothes and scar little children with creepy ads. The only difference (besides ideology) is that the religious nuts have more power, while hardly anyone takes PETA seriously.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:04 PM

61. I ask this question because alot of people talk about factory farming as a huge reason to stop

What about those that don't do factory farming I know and get alot of the meat I do eat from people that raise their own animals and hunt. They aren't supporting the terrible conditions that occur in those places. Does the argument still really hold true. I know from experience that animals from those the people I'm talking about aren't kept in horrible conditions.

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #61)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:09 PM

62. The OP is PETA is not your enemy,

 

but I hunt for all my meat, I raise chickens for food and eggs, I keep several animals as pets, all of which PETA has condemned, so, how does that not make them my enemy, which the OP doesn't seem to want to acknowledge.

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Response to Ranchemp. (Reply #62)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:14 PM

64. I got the OP title but reading th poster talks alot about factory farming as a reason to get on

board with being a vegan. he problem is I know plenty who choose to hunt and raise their own meat and are very much against factory farming. So if PETA opposes factory farming they should support those that don't participate in it. Otherwise like you said they are the enemy of any that eats meat regardless of where it comes from

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #61)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:31 PM

68. As far as I'm concerned, factory farming is the problem.

If you live in the U.S. and are an omnivore, it's virtually impossible to avoid supporting the factory farming industry. Unless you have your own farm, where you grow your own chickens, pigs, and cattle, chances are you're supporting the factory farming industry. And that industry is unspeakably awful.

For example, if you buy eggs that are marked "cage-free" or "free-range," that means nothing. There is no regulation of those terms. If you really want eggs from a company that doesn't kill male chicks, debeak female chicks, and confine chickens to tiny spaces, there is one source, which is a farm in Australia. (I believe I read about this in "Eating Animals." The reality is, it's next to impossible to avoid supporting factory farming in the U.S., without switching to a plant-based diet.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on non-factory-farmed meat. Such a huge fraction of animal products are factory farmed that the question of whether it's moral or immoral to eat animal products from one's own farm or one's friend's farm seems beside the point. For me, this is not a philosophical question. It is about stopping handing over one's money to the factory farm industry. It's like boycotting any other industry. That's why I switched to a plant-based diet. When I switched, I wasn't against eating animals in general. (I'm not sure where I stand on that right now.) I switched because I refuse to support that industry.

Note also that independent, humane farms are not a solution to the problem. Such farms can't possibly satisfy the demand for the animal products in North America. If everyone tried to eat from such farms, the prices would skyrocket. There is no solution but to reduce our animal-product intake drastically.

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Response to athena (Reply #68)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:37 PM

72. Your title is that PETA is not the enemy,

 

but that's false, they are the enemy of those of us who hunt, keep animals as pets, raise animals for food.
IOW, they are my enemy.

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #61)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:40 PM

73. Is there a humane way to kill?

Your answer may be different from mine, but do you think there a truly humane way to kill?

No matter how the animals live, they go to slaughter one way or another. Cattle specifically have to go to one of just a handful of slaughterhouses. It's not done by the farmers themselves. The cattle are shipped live and are held in pens and submitted to factory conditions before and during slaughter. There is a reason why the meat processing industry is so keen to keep cameras out of their facilities.

There is a bit more freedom with chickens. Polyface Farms (considered one of the most humane places) has video out of their chicken slaughter (Natural Farming @ Polyface Farms), which I won't link to. The chickens still get their throats slit and are live as the blood drains from their necks. Even the farm owner admits that he intentionally spaces out slaughter days because it gets to the people who have to do it.

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Response to StrayKat (Reply #73)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:12 PM

97. Killing isn't any living thing isn't great but there are less terrible ways to kill the animals

I worked butchering meat believe me I know it's not pretty. There are lots of meats I don't eat because of that time. I don't eat any pork period for example. I honestly in recent year only eat meat two maybe three times a week. I also drink almond milk because I hate the taste of regular milk.

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #97)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:27 PM

102. If everyone did what you do, it would have a huge impact.

I'm not a purist. Personally, I can't buy animal products at the store since watching Vegucated, but that's just me. The most important thing is to spread the information about factory farms. I can't help but think that if people really knew the truth, most would drastically (say, by a factor of two) reduce their intake of animal products. And that would have a huge impact on the industry and the environment.

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Response to athena (Reply #102)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:31 PM

103. Conversly, it could also increase the number of people hunting their own food.

 

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Response to StrayKat (Reply #73)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:21 PM

100. Thanks for pointing out the slaughterhouse problem.

I had read this, I believe in "Eating Animals," but I never remember specifics. Thanks for explaining it and providing links!

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:23 PM

65. PETA kills animals -

"According to records from the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, PETA has killed more than 29,000 animals (mostly dogs and cats) at its headquarters in Norfolk, Virginia."

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

Perhaps you thought the word "PETA" in your OP would draw attention, but I don't think it's the kind of attention you want. Yes, you make very good points and I don't have a problem at all with your suggestions. But I'd find your message much more palatable without bringing PETA into it as they have proven that while they might like cows, pigs and chickens they certainly are not heroes for cats and dogs.

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Response to TBF (Reply #65)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:34 PM

71. Are those strays that had to be put down?

And why would you use a right wing website as a source? If you follow the links to who runs the site you posted you come up here:


http://www.consumerfreedom.com/

Not exactly material for liberals..

BTW I personally don't like PETA. They are their own worst enemy, however I doubt they are just willy nilly killing cats and dogs.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #71)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:46 PM

77. They really do kill animals that don't need to be put down.

They don't even make an effort to treat them or find homes for them:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-j-winograd/peta-kills-puppies-kittens_b_2979220.html

According to inspection reports by the Virginia Department of Agriculture, the PETA facility "does not contain sufficient animal enclosures to routinely house the number of animals annually reported as taken into custody... The shelter is not accessible to the public, promoted, or engaged in efforts to facilitate the adoption of animals taken into custody."

Routine inspections often found "no animals to be housed in the facility" or, at best "few animals in custody," despite thousands of them impounded by PETA annually. Since they take in thousands per year, where were they? "90% [of the animals] were euthanized within the first 24 hours of custody," according to the Virginia Department of Agriculture inspector. How can people adopt animals from PETA when they kill the animals they acquire within minutes without ever making them available for adoption? How can people adopt animals when they have no adoption hours, do no adoption promotion, and do not show animals for adoption, choosing to kill them without doing so? In fact, when asked by a reporter what efforts they make to find animals homes, PETA had no comment.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #71)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:08 PM

91. How about Huffington Post?

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Response to TBF (Reply #91)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:26 PM

186. Yes those are much better..

Now I have another reason not to like PETA...

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #186)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 10:43 AM

222. It's too bad because the vegan message is a good one -

I think many of us would be healthier by at least eliminating some of the meat if not all. But PETA itself is so controversial that I just stay away from them. Plenty of other good animal organizations out there working on spay neuter, no-kill, humane farming etc.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:34 PM

70. PETA is a prime example of what happens to your brain with a B12 deficiency.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #70)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:04 PM

90. I'm not sure most PETA people are vegan.

Anyway, most vegans don't have a B-12 deficiency. It's easy enough to get it from enriched soymilk and from nutritional yeast, which I love to sprinkle on popcorn.

ETA: I checked: some positions require one to be vegan.
http://www.peta.org/about/work-at-peta/jobs-faq.aspx
Do you have to be vegetarian or vegan to work for PETA/FSAP?
Some of our positions do require you to be vegan (e.g., all campaign positions, fundraising and development positions, and media spokesperson positions). However, many positions do not require this. We look for compassionate people to work here.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:40 PM

74. no thanks

 

Not interested in a meat-free diet. I love lamb, fish, sardines, beef, etc. You definitely have an evangelical-like zeal though, almost like you want to "convert" people, I'll give you that.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #74)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:48 PM

78. I am not trying to convert anyone.

I have observed people's reactions to my switch to a plant-based diet, and I know that most people are deeply intent upon not changing their minds about this issue. I honestly couldn't care less about your diet. Go on and eat meat. If you truly know about factory farming, that says something about you. If you don't truly know about factory farming, it says something about how well the industry has succeeded in hiding the truth from the people. They've brainwashed people so much that even when somebody talks specifically about factory farming, they hear it as a statement about eating animals.

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Response to athena (Reply #78)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 02:58 PM

84. If you aren't, why do you sound like one of those street evangelists?

"Since you don't believe as I do, you're going to go to hell/be a part of factory farming."

"Nonbelievers are brainwashed/deceived by satan!"

"The devil's/factory farmers' minions have brainwashed you!"

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:11 PM

94. I do not care for PETA or guilt trips about factory farming.

I applaud your choice to be a vegan. Good for you. I however, do not care to stop mass production of food for an entire population so we can eat tofu and beans. Pass. Sounds snarky, but it's true. I find the term "thoughtful omnivores" condescending also. It serves the meme that vegans are smug people when I know this not to be true. I've watched the videos, read the stories, and slaughtered my food before. I know full well what I'm doing.

PETA is not my enemy, but they are certainly not my friend. I would stand next to anyone who advocated for more humane & cleaner methods. But in the end I realize the need (yes it's a need) for a way to mass produce food for an ever hungry society. Who have shown little desire for a plant based diet.

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Response to Inkfreak (Reply #94)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:16 PM

98. Blaming the messenger is very popular!

This has been an educational experience for me!

If you knew me personally, you would know that I am not a condescending person at all. I find it very interesting that so many people have attacked me for being "condescending" or "arrogant" (while ignoring the points I was trying to make).

The reason I used the term "thoughtful omnivores" is that I have been attacked numerous times on DU by meat-eating bullies on threads about plant-based diets. Some people, unfortunately, come to DU not to have a discussion but to cause trouble. They get a kick out of insulting and attacking people. If calling everyone else "thoughtful" makes me "condescending," then I am proud to be so.

ETA: You forget that it's the meat industry itself that encouraged such a high demand for meat. People used to eat much less meat just a few decades ago.

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Response to athena (Reply #98)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:35 PM

107. I certainly don't mean to attack you and apologize after reading my post again.

I don't believe you should be attacked for your views. I wish you well and I'm sure we will agree on a variety of subjects in the future. We are on this very website because of shared views. I do take your posts with the sincerity you meant. And hope you don't take the troublemakers to heart. I try not to engage in heated exchanges here, I don't have the heart for it.

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Response to Inkfreak (Reply #107)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:05 PM

115. Thanks for the kind note!

I truly feel no arrogance or condescension toward anyone. I actually feel humbled by my switch to a plant-based diet. For eleven years before the switch, I was a huge meat eater. My favorite foods were rare steak and sashimi. My favorite restaurants were steakhouses. I had pork, veal, duck, and even foie gras. I knew vegetarians, but the issue somehow didn't register with me. So I am in no position to criticize anyone's diet or reluctance to switch. When I watched Vegucated, I was shocked and angry that I had been so uninformed. That's why I think it's so important to spread awareness of the problem of factory farming.

Thanks again for your words.

P.S. Are you by any chance a fountain-pen user? If so, from another fountain-pen nut!

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Response to athena (Reply #115)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:42 PM

167. Nah, I'm covered in tattoos, lol.

But I do enjoy a good pen.

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Response to Inkfreak (Reply #94)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 03:59 PM

234. Meat is the most inefficient way to feed a hungry planet

Take all the grain that's fed to cattle and livestock and you could feed all the hungry people in the world.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:12 PM

96. OK. Since everyone wants to focus on PETA's tactics

here is their explanation of why they use them.
http://www.peta.org/about/faq/Why-does-PETA-use-controversial-tactics.aspx
Why does PETA use controversial tactics?

PETA’s mission is to get the animal rights message out to as many people as possible. Unlike our opposition—which is mostly composed of wealthy industries and corporations—PETA must rely largely on free "advertising" through media coverage. We will do extraordinary things to get the word out about animal cruelty because we have learned from experience that the media, sadly, do not consider the terrible facts about animal suffering alone interesting enough to cover. It is sometimes necessary to shake people up in order to initiate discussion, debate, questioning of the status quo, and, of course, action.

Thus, we try to make our actions colorful and controversial, thereby grabbing headlines around the world and spreading the message of kindness to animals to thousands—sometimes millions—of people. This approach has proved amazingly successful: In the three decades since PETA was founded, it has grown into the largest animal rights group in the country, with more than 3 million members and supporters worldwide. We have also had major groundbreaking successes, such as bringing about the first-ever cruelty conviction against an animal experimenter in the case of the now-famous Silver Spring Monkeys; orchestrating the first-ever raid on an agricultural facility (a factory farm in upstate New York that raised ducks for foie gras under horribly cruel conditions); and convincing more than 200 cosmetics companies to permanently abandon animal tests.


(Emphases mine.)

Considering that they're opposing a horrible, and very wealthy, industry, I have a hard time faulting them for doing all they can to get people's attention. Just my personal opinion.

I think this has just convinced me to join PETA. Thanks, everyone who attacked me on this thread! I don't think anything could have made me to donate to PETA, because I used to also be against their tactics (as you can see from my previous posts on this thread).

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Response to athena (Reply #96)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:44 PM

124. sexism. racism. targeting child behind parents back. i do not give a flyin fuck what

 

there excuse is for sexism, racism and targeting kids. i will speak out every damn time.

clear?

my question is.... why dont you? why do you condone their sexism? why do you condone their racism? why do you condone them targeting children to hurt them?

you want me to feel bad about what happens with animals as i watch you ignore what they do to human beings. hypocrisy?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #124)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:59 PM

127. As Peter Singer might say,

I don't see why you can't be against sexism and racism while also being against factory farming.

I have not seen any example of true sexism or racism on PETA's part. Showing male and female bodies nude is not sexist. In retrospect, the ad I referred to was also not sexist. Moreover, the ad you objected to as being "traumatic" to children was so far from being anything like it that it seems to me that you tend to overstate things.

Finally, I doubt very much that you, who have so far shown an amazing lack of concern for living beings being mistreated by the factory-farming complex, are in any position to judge this life-long feminist and white member of the NAACP. I have no time to waste on someone who goes around attacking and insulting people she knows nothing about.

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Response to athena (Reply #127)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:03 PM

128. so much wrong and sad in your post. have a good weekend. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #128)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:45 PM

136. I just don't appreciate being accused of sexism, racism, and stupidity, all in the same message.

Having fought sexism my entire life as a woman in a highly male-dominated field, I take great offense at being told that I condone sexism and racism. You have shown not a single example of either sexism or racism on the part of this organization, which fights the factory-farming industry. Nor have you made a single statement acknowledging the evils of that industry. Do you really think people will listen to you if you continually ignore what they're saying and insult them instead?

If you have a point to make, you can make it without accusing people you've never met of the worst problems with society. Just in this message I'm responding to, you tell me that I'm so stupid and so clueless that you can't even be bothered to make a rational argument beyond telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. What a productive attitude! I'm sure it makes you feel superior, though.

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Response to athena (Reply #136)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:49 PM

138. someone was kind enough to provide the racism. justify it. really, do. cause i know you will.

 

justify the damn racism that totallly DISGUSTS us human beings.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024003873

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #138)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:31 PM

174. They're not promoting racism in that protest.

It's not like anyone who witnessed that protest or sees its pictures is going to join that hateful organization. While they may have offended some people in their attempt to shock them, there is a lot of real racism out there. In other words, if you're fighting against racism, PETA would be the last organization to target. You'd be much better off fighting things like stop-and-frisk and voter suppression.

Similarly, as a woman who has witnessed true sexism in the workplace, I am much less offended by the beautiful nude models PETA uses in their advertising than I am by the false opinion generally accepted by the public that women are intellectually inferior to men.

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Response to athena (Reply #174)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:34 PM

176. you do not even just ify the racism, just ignore it. welcome to du, a progressive board, where we

 

fight racism, sexism and protect our children. unless peta does it.

i am done.

you totally ignore the racism, do not speak up and are part of the problem, in my book.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #176)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:52 PM

180. Sure.

That protest is so offensive, even though we can't even pinpoint any damage it does. But stop-and-frisk is just fine. Voter suppression is just fine. Discrimination against women in the workplace is just fine. That's not discrimination at all! Let's just attack and insult people who actually give money to such causes, who actually go out there and protest against them.

This liberal pretend-PC-ism, this holier-than-thou attitude, is what I can't stand. There are real problems out there. Yet so many people think it's better to attack people who are actually doing something to change things.

I doubt very much that you have done anything to actually fight racism and sexism beyond posting brief, badly-composed, almost incomprehensible messages on a discussion board. If you think that accomplishes anything in the real world, you are lying to yourself.

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Response to athena (Reply #180)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:09 PM

181. seriously? not just offensive. it is fuckin RACIST. i refuse to support racism. period. end of

 

conversation. racisim is NOT ok, ever, for any reason. i will NOT be a part of it. you? you do not mind at all.

further, i will also speak out against the other wrongs. without ignoring the racism of peta and then derailing to accuse of not being bothered with other wrongs. i can call them ALL out.

who the FUCK said any of the other stuff you brought up was fine? what a stupid ass way to ignore the racism being done by a group you defend. totally fuckin wrong.

and then you reduce yourself to personal attack. you pulled out all the stops, didnt you, so you could derail away from the fuckin RACISM you ignore to defend the group. truly and well disgusted.

i did not think i would every see a member of du embrace racism as i have in this subthread. never.

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Response to athena (Reply #180)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:19 PM

184. this will be my last post to you. i did not know this about myself. i generally fight the battle

 

for women. but, your dismissal of the racism from this org, and that particular event has made me more angry, more disgusted, more ashamed of a fellow white person, simply beyond myself in anger than i have with any other social issue i fight for. i do not know exactly what you did to so dismiss KKK standing their to promote peta that has taken me to this place. but in ALL the battles i have had on du, i have never gotten to the anger and disgust than i have with these posts of yours that accept this level of racism.

maybe it is the fact that the KKK fuckin KILLS PEOPLE. not animals. but HUMAN BEINGS. and you are more concerned with your animals, than human beings that disgust me beyond anything i have yet to hear on du. that is fuckin ten years of hearing a lot of crap.

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Response to athena (Reply #127)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:04 PM

147. You're right that showing nude bodies, in itself, is not sexist. But that's not the issue.

From what I understand, it has more to do with the fact that PETA's models seem carefully tailored to conventional beauty standards. Which is understandable in some ways, but potentially problematic in others.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #147)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:32 PM

161. not to mention the suggestion of milking women like cows and providing the breast milk for icecream.

 

ya. no misogyny there.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #161)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:37 PM

163. Yeah, some of the stuff they've come up with is just bizarre.

Not to mention invoking the age-old "women=meat" equation, if only in a mocking/parodic way.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #147)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:42 PM

168. oh. and women fuckin veggies. ya. that is the ticket. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #168)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:49 PM

178. Like I said, bizarre, also ridiculous, and not likely to sway anyone. n/t

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #178)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:51 PM

179. bizarre yes. but more importantly to me, misogynist. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #179)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:16 PM

183. No argument here. It certainly does undermine any progressive aspects of their message. n/t

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:17 PM

99. PETA is one of the most hypocritical groups out there

saving animals by killing them?

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:33 PM

105. Thank you for the post, athena

Despite what people think of PETA, I think there's a very good point here. I have a friend who is very careful of what she eats. No meat, dairy, etc., and she absolutely glows. She has tons of energy, a great, positive outlook on life, and you feel better just being around her.

I don't know how much credit should be given to her diet for all this, but she feels strongly it has made a difference, and whatever it is certainly shows.

I've talked to her about it several times, and really would like to find out more, so I appreciate the resources you mentioned. My friend doesn't have a problem with what other people eat, she thinks that she's setting a good example for others to see, and if they are interested, she will help them.

I don't like animal cruelty of any kind, and it does bother me that so many animals live their lives solely to become food for people. That's not much of a life.

My friend's husband likes to eat bacon for breakfast, and he's fine with cooking it himself. Thanks again for the post.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:33 PM

106. Thank you!

I am a PETA supporter. I give them a donation at least once a year. And yes, I am a vegetarian, although not vegan. I am a passionate animal rights supporter. My key issues are abolishing whaling and dolphin/small whale murders, as well as protecting farm animals.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #106)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:37 PM

135. You do know what your money pays for right?

Ad campaigns that make animal rights advocates look like raving lunatics that offends most normal people's sensibilities, euthanizing of MOST animals they "rescue". I find it hard to believe all those animals were either too aggressive to be rehabilitated or dying anyway of terminal illness. There have actually been court cases against members of PETA for dumping euthanized dogs and cats in dumpsters around the city. DUMPSTERS. Not only illegal, but it's down right disgusting and disrespectful. Those animals weren't garbage and they shouldn't have been treated as such. It was just cheaper than actually getting them vet care, rehabilitation if needed and rehoming them. Gotta have enough money for those lovely ad campaigns, right? Oh and they bought a huge walk in freezer the size of a large walk in closet for one of their locations. Care to guess what that was for? Certainly not to store their frozen microwave vegan lunches.

I do not know if PETA still does that, but it has been documented that they have. When I was a teenager and started getting memberships to organizations like PETA, they seemed ok back then. Yeah they had some videos of under cover investigations that showed cruelty that were upsetting to watch, but their ad campaigns were relatively mild. Eventually they went off the deep end ... big time. They want the complete liberation of animals, do you know what that means? Ideally, no animals to be kept as pets. Just let them go out on their own. You can't do that with domestic animals. Can you imagine all cats and dogs released to the streets? They would end up dead. Either by cars, wild animals, starvation, disease, people who shoot them because they are sick of the cats defecating in their gardens, and people would have to round them up and cull them because populations would be enormous. A huge feral cat and dog population would occur. One way or another, they would die. If you want to help animals financially, donate to your local no kill shelter or to those who foster. The money will be much better used.

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Response to OwnedByCats (Reply #135)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:48 PM

137. Welcome to my IGNORE list.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #137)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:02 PM

146. Gee

I'm really going to lose sleep over that

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Response to OwnedByCats (Reply #135)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:21 PM

201. This

And I love your screen name.

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Response to tabbycat31 (Reply #201)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:33 PM

224. Thanks! :)

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 03:35 PM

108. PETA is not your friend.

Shock tactics don't make people look like impassioned activists, they make them look like kooks.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:05 PM

114. that's your opinion. I think PETA has a point about not torturing animals

 

but eating meat is my own choice--I don't need them trying to meat shame me.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #114)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:10 PM

118. It's not about shame.

Most if not all of the people who now follow a plant-based diet used to be meat eaters. So no one needs to feel ashamed of anything. But when you eat animal products, you are almost inevitably supporting the factory-farm industry (unless you raise or hunt them all yourself). The ways in which the factory-farm industry handles animals is torture. That's what happens when you don't impose strict regulations on an industry that cares about nothing other than its bottom line.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:10 PM

119. Well said, Athena!

 

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #119)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:08 PM

130. Thanks!

If it weren't for your posts yesterday, which were so unfairly attacked, I would not have started this thread.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 04:57 PM

126. I wish PETA wasn't included in a discussion about meatless diets.

sigh. PETA has done far more harm than good to the cause, imo, and I truly wish the discussion of meatless nutrition could be had without the distraction of their controversial antics. The subject is certainly inflammatory enough without adding straw men.


PETA aside, I appreciate what you're trying to do. I adopted a vegan diet almost 2 years ago and feel much better physically and emotionally.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #126)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:51 PM

140. That is how I feel as well -

I see "PETA" and become angry solely because the stories I've read.

I have not adopted a vegetarian diet completely, but I have cut down substantially on the meat (especially beef) and eating many more vegetables. It really does make a difference quickly. My grandparents had a beef farm with a few dairy cows so I grew up in that type of environment. I think the hardest would be for me to cut milk, cheese and butter. The OP has so many good points if you can ignore the title.

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Response to TBF (Reply #140)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:33 PM

175. Agreed, TBF.

Going vegan was a series of small steps for me, starting at the mother pig and piglets county fair exhibit (no more pork for me!), and ending 6 months later after watching Forks Over Knives (no more animal protein of any kind).

Within 3 weeks my energy level shot up and my aches and pains were basically gone. I felt better than I had in 10 years, actually. In the next year I lost 50 pounds, dropped to 120 cholesterol and was no longer pre-diabetic.

Good luck on your journey, TBF. If you can, you should watch Forks Over Knives. Here's the trailer:



And here's a great presentation by Gary Yourofsky. This one has disturbing scenes of cruelty at factory farms but it gives ample warning. The rest of the speech is very informative:




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Response to Doremus (Reply #175)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 10:44 AM

223. I will watch these - thank you! nt

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Response to Doremus (Reply #175)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 04:47 PM

236. Thanks for recommending Forks over Knives

I just downloaded it and I'm 1/2 hour into it and it is fantastic.

Everyone should be required to view it (as long as we're all into this mandatory thing- and corporate insurance is now everyone's business).

"Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food" --Hippocrates

It really is that simple. Health care starts when someone stuffs something into their mouths! A nation that ignores the simple truths in this documentary will never see lower insurance rates or better overall health. Can't begin to imagine why it's such an emotional issue for some. Really.

Thanks again!

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:54 PM

141. Meh.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #141)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:09 PM

173. I hope you remembered to put some nutritional yeast on that popcorn!

Yum!

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Response to athena (Reply #173)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:28 PM

187. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

I don't disrespect your personal choice to be vegetarian or vegan, but I don't agree that it's necessarily the most healthy diet. What I do agree with is that factory farming is horrendous and downright evil, that over-consumption of meat is both unhealthy and unsustainable. I think a more reasonable approach would be to educate people on the problems with those things without expecting folks to completely give up being omnivores.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #187)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:40 PM

192. Every bit helps.

I don't expect people to give up being omnivores. (In fact, I don't expect any omnivore who has read this thread to even reduce his/her animal-product intake. I'm skeptical about whether these DU discussions achieve anything, since so many people seem to be dead set against changing their opinion about any issue. But the anti-PETA thread, and the one that attempted to respond to it but got hidden for technical reasons, convinced me to post this thread, if only to prove to myself that DU is still a place where controversial issues can be discussed. I'd like to think that I've informed someone about how horrible factory farming is, but I'm not so sure.)

It's quantitative: if half of all omnivores reduced their animal-product intake by half, the effect would be huge. Much bigger than if even five percent of people switched to a totally plant-based diet. So I'm not advocating that everyone switch immediately to a plant-based diet. I'm not a purist, and I'm not so crazy as to think that such a thing is even possible. As I stated in my post, I'm merely asking people to think about the issue and to inform themselves about factory farming. (Before anyone accuses me again of arrogance: I didn't know about the real horrors of factory farming until ten months ago, and I don't consider myself ill-informed, so I have reason to think others may not know, either.)

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:06 PM

148. Their methods seem counterproductive

And only serve to alienate people.

Now, the choir they are preaching to applaud these methods, I suppose, but it turns almost everyone else off.

They also spread misinformation much of the time.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:14 PM

149. kr Meet PETA's sexiest vegetarian over 50- she's 74 now

Without PETA fewer people would know about people like Mimi Kirk

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:18 PM

150. Translation: We know better than you what you should put in your own mouth.

Which is why PETA and proseltyzing vegans aren't terribly popular.

If PETA would focus on factory farming instead of trying to draw a moral equivalence between chickens, rats, and human beings, they would get more traction.

People are not going to stop eating meat.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:30 PM

159. epic fail.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:31 PM

160. Countries with the highest life expectancy have populations which are not vegetarians. Japan,

Switzerland, San Marino, Italy, etc.

The graphics that some anti-abortionist ads use definitely is within their first amendment rights, as are PETA ads. The question is are they effective, or do they cause more polarization against their cause?

Incidentally, I am a vegetarian, but I do not go out of my way telling flesh eaters what they can or cannot eat

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Response to lostincalifornia (Reply #160)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:38 PM

164. Okinawa diet: Life expectancy among highest in world and primarily plant based

People from the Ryukyu Islands (of which Okinawa is the largest) have a life expectancy among the highest in the world,[2] although the male life expectancy rank among Japanese prefectures has plummeted in recent years.[3] (my add: due to adoption of western diet- less soy, more burgers)

The traditional diet of the islanders contains 30% green and yellow vegetables. Although the traditional Japanese diet usually includes large quantities of rice, the traditional Okinawa diet consists of smaller quantities of rice; instead the staple was the sweet potato. The Okinawan diet has only 25% of the sugar and 75% of the grains of the average Japanese dietary intake.[4]

The traditional diet also includes a relatively small amount of fish (less than half a serving per day) and more in the way of soy and other legumes (6% of total caloric intake). Pork was highly valued, and every part of the pig was eaten, including internal organs. However, pork was primarily eaten on holidays, and the daily diet was mainly plant based

In addition to their high life expectancy, islanders are noted for their low mortality from cardiovascular disease and certain types of cancers. Wilcox (2007) compared age-adjusted mortality of Okinawans versus Americans and found that, during 1995, an average Okinawan was 8 times less likely to die from coronary heart disease, 7 times less likely to die from prostate cancer, 6.5 times less likely to die from breast cancer, and 2.5 times less likely to die from colon cancer than an average American of the same age..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet

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Response to solarhydrocan (Reply #164)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:47 PM

195. So the ideal diet for most is probably high in grains and vegetables, low in animal products.

Though that doesn't necessarily mean being vegetarian or vegan per se.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #195)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:22 PM

202. If the majority of people switched to such a diet,

it would bring the factory-farming industry to its knees. It would also greatly improve the health of our environment and the oceans.

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Response to lostincalifornia (Reply #160)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:39 PM

166. That's not actually true.

The research shows a clear link between a plant-based diet and a higher life expectancy. See, for example:
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Vegetarians-have-longer-life-expectancy-than-meat-eaters-finds-study
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/526S.short
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

No one is telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat. However, if an industry commits horrible practices, DU is the place to spread awareness and discuss the issue. Why is it OK to post an anti-PETA thread that completely ignores the factory-farming industry PETA opposes, but not a thread that points out that the real enemy is the factory-farming industry?

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Response to athena (Reply #166)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:32 PM

189. Why bring peta into it at all?

They're idiots. But working t stop factory-farming is a very worthy cause. Peta doesn't help with their juvenile/sexist/disgusting antics and make the issue seem like a joke to the average person.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 06:39 PM

165. True, People for the Eating of Tasty Animals

is not your enemy.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 07:40 PM

177. Funny... The ZERO KILL shelters by me don't euthanize injured or ferrule animals like PETA does. n/t

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Response to athena (Original post)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:30 PM

205. Way to go, Athena.

I don't agree with your view of PETA, but I'm impressed by your stamina in keeping up with the responses. So many times people start controversial threads and abandon them after a couple of replies.

I think getting people to understand the impact that meat has on their health, the environment, and society is important.

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Response to StrayKat (Reply #205)

Fri Nov 8, 2013, 09:44 PM

208. Thanks!

That was my goal.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:05 AM

214. Fuck PETA

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:23 AM

215. Congrats! You wandered into the forum of morons, clueless shitdiots, and may have exited intact.

Let me know when nutrition is the basis of the current argument. Otherwise, it's just the reverberations of stupidity from clueless, selfish assholes.

Oh, as for the "environmental footprint" many of them drive a Prius.

Stop laughing.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:26 AM

216. I got a buddy of mine on another board who's vegan.

He's convinced that PETA is a front organization set up by the meat industry to make vegans and animal rights activists look bad.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 02:03 AM

218. Hey. if sonm people want to torture animals and drink blood, who are we to criticize?

Blood. Yum.

It's what's for dinner.



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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 02:07 AM

219. No, PETA is not the enemy...they are the nutjobs. n/t

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:47 PM

226. PETA is its own parody.

That is all that anyone needs to know about it.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 01:55 PM

227. The outfit deserves all the criticism and MORE. They are NOT ASPCA or other animal

 

welfare groups. They are animal "rights" crackpots. They are disgusting, and they lie to further their agenda.

Don't engage in deception here. They want to shove some kind of vegan lifestyle on people while getting rid of animal domestication.

Don't believe me? Ask co-founder Ingrid Newkirk.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 02:00 PM

229. Yes, it is. It is the enemy of reason and common sense.

Their tactics turn otherwise reasonable and reachable people who may find merit in a plant-based diet into fierce opponents of anything PETA endorses.

If they were to dissolve and disappear, there is a chance you might have reasoned debate on the topic, but when PETA poisons the conversation with their nonsense, reasonable conversation is impossible.

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 03:42 PM

233. PETA's premise is "vegetarians are assholes"

 

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Response to athena (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:01 AM

253. this is the only thing that needs to be said about peta

fuck peta

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