German MP meets Snowden, says he is willing to come to Germany for inquiry

[cali]

A German lawmaker said he met Edward Snowden in Moscow on Thursday and the fugitive former U.S. spy agency contractor was willing to come to Germany to assist investigations into alleged U.S. surveillance of Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Hans-Christian Stroebele, a legislator for the opposition Greens party, told German broadcaster ARD it was clear Snowden "knew a lot" and that he would share details of their surprise meeting including a letter from Snowden addressed to the German government and chief federal prosecutor on Friday.

Stroebele, a well-known maverick in German politics, tweeted a photograph of himself and Snowden and ARD showed images of the two shaking hands in a room before their three-hour meeting.

"He made it clear he knows a lot and that as long as the National Security Agency (NSA) blocks investigations..., he is prepared to come to Germany and give testimony, but the conditions must be discussed," said Stroebele.

<snip>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/31/us-usa-security-germany-snowden-idUSBRE99U1DL20131031

[Sheepshank]

1. Snowden just barely got a job.....and he's taking off already?

...and he's talking conditions with Germany? I guess life in Russia isn't working out so well?

[cali]

3. how very American of you. American of a specific kind.

[Cali_Democrat]

5. Hong Kong is pretty cool. I've been there

Snowden was hoping he could stay there, but he got the boot to Russia. The land of homophobia, vodka and heroin addicts.

Poor bastard is probably drinking his ass off. Vodka is the drink of choice there.

I prefer tequila myself.

[cali]

7. your silly fantasies continue apace

as if you know.

[Katashi_itto]

21. I liked my trips to Russia

It wasn't that bad

[MADem]

27. Expensive, crime-ridden, and shitty, shitty, shitty in winter.

"It wasn't that bad" isn't much of an endorsement!

[Katashi_itto]

49. It was better than going to say...Detroit

[MADem]

52. I dunno. Detroit is a playground for the parkour types. And it's only a short drive

to "other" places that are a bit more hospitable.

Moscow in winter is not my idea of fun, especially if one can't leave.

[cali]

4. uh, no. he's referring to going to Germany as part of an investigation

[Cali_Democrat]

6. LOL

Once he leaves mother Russia, he won't wanna go back!

[cali]

8. lol. more of your revenge fantasies. I remember your

constant insistence that Snowden would be in an American prison.

bzzt.



Living in Russia beats life in a high security American prison. Unless you're delusional enough to believe that an American prison is wonderful compared to living in Russia

[Cali_Democrat]

12. Michele Catalano says hi

[Blue_Tires]

9. Why go to Germany?

Is there *any* chance he doesn't get taken into custody the moment the jet lands??

[MADem]

28. Bingo--there's an extradition order out; he's not safe in Germany.

He'll have to skype from the German Embassy or other Russian locale; he ain't leaving or he'll be rounded up.

[soundsgreat]

36. Nope; he can get a residence permit

German laws allow that, provided there are humanitary or international law reasons, or - most important - if the residence permit of the partiular person is in the interest of the Federal Republic of Germany.

This law beats the extradition treaty.

[MADem]

38. Don't be silly. nt

[soundsgreat]

40. Open your eyes before getting rude nt

[MADem]

41. Open yours.

http://www.mcnabbassociates.com/Germany%20International%20Extradition%20Treaty%20with%20the%20United%20States.pdf

Your premise is flat-out absurd.

[soundsgreat]

43. Don't make a fool out of yourself

The residence permit for Snowden is being discussed in Germany for months. He's protected from extradition in this case.

[MADem]

44. I'm not, but you are doing one heckuva job at it.

Snowden will get a "residence permit in Germany" when pigs fly.

You let me know when it happens, now, sport...! Bookmark this thread, and all, so you can race to me with hot-breathed enthusiasm when you get the word....

[soundsgreat]

45. I'm happy of finally having convinced you

that there's a "residence permit" in Germany that makes it possible to avoid an extradition.

Otherwise, I never said it will happen, only that it's possible. I'm not "hot-breathed enthisiastic" about it, and I certainly don't need to let you know because it will make the headlines anyway.

This kind of distraction cannot conceal that you've been proven wrong.

[MADem]

46. We have them in the USA too, sport.

In fact, most if not all countries have them--I guess this is news to you, as you somehow think this is a great "ah ha" point you are making? It's like saying "Gee, the sky is blue." BFD.

However, and here's where you go wrong.... they don't obviate extradition treaties. They never have.

But keep backing up, there--it beats continuing to dig that hole.

Pretty soon you'll get closer to the actual situation, as opposed to your biased hopes.

[randome]

10. 'Maverick' like McCain? Cruz?

Snowden doesn't know any useful information. He didn't even understand that PRISM was a secure FTP server. I doubt he knew anything about the spying on Germany until the story ran in the Guardian because, once again, like Manning, he stole thousands of documents without reading them.

If he knew anything about the inner workings of the NSA, he would have led off with that information instead of a Powerpoint slide.

Stroebele is just the latest to use him for political advantage, same as Greenwald and Assange.

Or maybe some are still entranced by his earnest but amorphous statement that he 'saw things'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[cali]

13. how on earth do YOU know. Many, many analysts disagree with that absurd claim

of yours.

Snowden has done us a huge favor with the NSA revelations he provided. And no one with following this story would claim that he "doesn't know any useful information".

That the NSA may now get some real Congressional oversight and limits, is directly correlated to Snowden.

[randome]

14. He's often portrayed as some master hacker when the only thing he did was to copy files.

He didn't understand PRISM. Some of the information he released to the media has been interesting but the vast majority of it so far comes down to the NSA monitoring foreign communications because that's their job.

The metadata copies? Meh. If you think that's important, fine. I don't.

I bet the legislation currently winding its way through Congress goes nowhere. But if I'm mistaken, that's fine by me, too.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[ljm2002]

15. "instead of a Powerpoint slide"...

...these Powerpoint presentations are prepared for training and for rapid knowledge transfer. They contain a lot of information, including visual representations that truly are worth many words. Sometimes being able to visualize something makes it much clearer than pages of text would -- even if the pages of text are still necessary for the more detailed understanding required by developers and the like.

Check this out:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-infiltrates-links-to-yahoo-google-data-centers-worldwide-snowden-documents-say/2013/10/30/e51d661e-4166-11e3-8b74-d89d714ca4dd_story.html

It's a cute l'il slide with a scribbled note on it (note that "slide" in this context almost certainly means "Powerpoint slide&quot .

Here's a picture of the slide in question:



Not very fancy, is it?

Note the cute smiley face that says "SSL Added and removed here!"

It seems to have had a rather large effect already -- Google is in a bit of an uproar over it, and several countries and businesses are looking at ways to avoid US-controlled Internet access points.

But it's just a slide, so it must be worthless. No inner workings there. Snowden knows nothing. Riiiiight.

[randome]

16. He didn't know anything about this until it was published.

Remember he stole thousands of documents. Do you really think he read them all? If this was what he meant when he said he "saw things", why didn't he say anything about it?

It remains to be seen how this plays out. But a trusted government official who steals thousands of classified documents and turns them over to international media will, in all likelihood, get 'lucky' if those news organizations sift through them and find something worth the concern.

That does not make him a hero. He remains what he was: an isolated loner who abandoned his fiance and parents and ran to Russia.

The NSA, allegedly, restricted their scope to foreign databanks. That's obviously not going to be enough to allay people's concerns. But so far all we have is this post-it note.

Powerpoint slides are the bane of every organization and never relied on for anything important. They offer brief summaries, not detailed endeavors.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[ljm2002]

17. He may not be a hero...

...but neither is he a government official, trusted or otherwise. Technically, he worked for Booz Hamilton, a private firm. But even if he worked for the NSA as a direct employee, that would not make him a "government official".

You seem concerned that people might think Snowden did some clever hacking to obtain the documents he took. But that was never the issue. The issue is, did he or did he not blow the whistle on serious, massive overreach by the NSA. IMO the jury is in on that question, and the answer is yes, he did blow that whistle.

[randome]

26. I don't consider him to be a whistleblower when he didn't take the time...

...to read all the documents he stole. Remember when he said he "saw things"? He never said what that meant because he himself didn't know.

He was just an isolated loner who saw a chance to be a superhero of some sort.

Most of the information that's been released has been because of the analysis of news organizations who actually read the documents. Snowden did not read thousands of documents.

Say I worked as an employee of a pawn shop. I could steal all the contents and dump them into the street. Maybe one or two items are stolen goods that the police were looking for. Would that make me a whistleblower?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[ljm2002]

34. Well let's see now...

...we now know that the scope of NSA spying is far beyond what was known previously, and also plainly beyond what is legal. The information he has provided shows us that the NSA, that is prohibited from spying on Americans, does so routinely -- and not always just when they are communicating with non-Americans. It has shown that the NSA has been spying on foreign heads of state -- not a little bit, not for a week during some tense situation (which would be bad enough if discovered) -- but routinely, for years. And it's not just the leaders of foreign countries; no, it is also millions of citizens of those countries, without cause. We also now know that the NSA indulges in industrial espionage, confirming the deeply entwined relationship between our government and Big Bidness. We know that tidbits are handed over to the DEA, who then dutifully scrub their sources of information, which are after all illegal (domestic spying, NSA, no-no). And of course there is the latest revelation that the NSA scoops up data directly from Google's front end server, without warrants, and without notifying anyone. That's a big pile-o-data they have realtime access to, with zero accountability.

You scoff at the fact that he has not shared with us the particulars of the "things" that he claimed he saw. Well it is true, he has not shared those things with us, and without proof, we don't know what he is talking about. But were he to share those things with us, you would likely ramble on about what a careless, if not outright traitorous, person he is.

But you don't think Snowden is a whistle blower because he didn't review the documents to your satisfaction before providing them to journalists. Of course he did specifically request they be careful about what they revealed, and the journalistic organizations involved are reputable and have done that.

Yep. He's a whistle blower.

[randome]

47. What is illegal about what the NSA has done?

The metadata copies? Already ruled in the courts to be permissible. Spying on diplomats? They aren't covered by our laws.

Who are the victims?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[riderinthestorm]

18. Point of fact he got stuck in Russia when the US revoked his passport. nt

[randome]

25. Yeah, well, he was just passing through on his way...where?

Touring the world, I suppose. But that's not true. He was on the run. Any port in a storm. Even a Russian one.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[geek tragedy]

11. When this guy gets elected Chancellor then Snowden heading to Germany

will be plausible.

As pissed as Merkel is right now, no way she lets the Snowden circus move to her home turf.

[ljm2002]

19. I'm having a little trouble following your logic here...

...seems to me that a pissed-off Merkel might be just as likely to welcome the "Snowden circus" to Germany, as a chance to poke a finger in the eye of the USA / NSA.

[geek tragedy]

20. 1) she values the relationship with the US too much; 2) Snowden may have info on German spying nt

[ljm2002]

22. Indeed both things may be true...

...but neither addresses how her being pissed off would reinforce those attitudes. Rather the reverse, I'd think, if anything.

But of course she would carefully weigh all the ramifications, pissed off or not.

[geek tragedy]

23. point was that DESPITE being pissed off, she wouldn't let this happen

I was probably unclear in expressing that

[ljm2002]

24. Okay that makes more sense. :-) n/t

[MADem]

29. You're unclear as to the relationship USA has with Germany, I see.

VERY unclear.

There will be no "eye poking." This MP is a fringe fellow; it's the equivalent of suggesting that Ted Cruz speaks for the American government.

Do some homework. Start here, with the Cliff notes, pay particular attention to this paragraph:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E2%80%93United_States_relations

The two nations' economies are mutually important to each other both in the areas of investment and trade: 50% of German foreign direct investment goes to the United States. German investment in the United States amounts to over 100 billion euros. The United States is the largest investor in the European Union with almost 50% of all investment and in Germany with total investment amounting to 100 billion dollars, of which about 10% are in the new Federal Länder (former East Germany), making the U.S. the largest foreign investor there.

German companies employ over 800,000 people in subsidiaries in the United States and U.S. companies have the same number of employees in Germany. This makes Germans the third largest group of foreign employers (after Canada and the United Kingdom) and the U.S. the largest inter-continental foreign employer in Germany.

Money talks. Everything else walks. Eddie sits in Russia.

[ljm2002]

30. Not at all, m'dear...

...it's just that Angela Merkel being pissed off at the USA / NSA would not make her less likely to invite Snowden, but more so, were she so inclined. Of course, as you must have seen upthread, I am well aware that world leaders do not make such decisions based solely on how pissed off they are. It was a bit of faulty logic that the poster I was responding to has cleared up.

But thanks anyway.

[MADem]

31. You plainly are unclear, since you think there's ANY likelihood of Merkel inviting Snowden for a

visit. That's an absurd notion. There's a warrant out for the guy. Germany will honor that warrant. We have a number of treaties with them that will ensure that happens.

[ljm2002]

32. I see logic is not your strong point...

...nor reading comprehension, for that matter -- since I never said she was likely to invite Snowden. I merely pointed out that it is illogical to state that she would not want him there because she is pissed off at the USA / NSA. Her not wanting him there has nothing to do with her being pissed off, and furthermore, the fact that she is (rightly) pissed off at the USA / NSA would make her more likely to invite him, not less so -- were she so inclined, which I never claimed she was.

As I said, the poster I responded to has cleared up the issue and admitted to being a little unclear in their phrasing.

So what's your issue again?

[MADem]

33. Uh...whoever smelt it, dealt it, there, pal.

She doesn't "want him there." It is illogical to think that she would. If you think that, it's your bias talking to you.

She will never "invite" him, it's not even a remote likelihood.

I have no issue. I find your imaginings only a bit amusing.

[ljm2002]

35. My we are being a bit crude, aren't we...

...and by "we" I mean "you".

I merely commented on a logical fallacy. The rest is in your fevered imagination.

TTFN

[MADem]

37. Not crude at all, just direct. And I'm not imagining a thing. TTFN to you, too, I suppose. nt

[soundsgreat]

39. The idea to invite Snowden is very popular among Germans

and the ecomonic interdependene is mutual. Merkel knows this.

You think US investors will withdraw their engagement if Snowden gets residence permit in Germany?

[MADem]

42. I tell you what there, sparky, you hold that thought. And when it happens, you come and "school" me

mmmmmkay?

Just don't hold your breath, because you'll turn blue and pass out.

When pigs fly, this will happen. Not before.

indeed.

Oh, and welcome to DU...or is it welcome back...?

[soundsgreat]

48. German government poised to speak with Snowden

leading politicians express intention to do so. Unlikely however that Snowden will come to Germany. A meeting in Moscow is favored.

[soundsgreat]

50. Snowden's attourney: he will not leave Russia

but is open to be questioned in Moscow. So it boils down some Germans will fly to Moscow and speak with him as part of the parliamentary commission investigating the NSA scandal.

[randome]

51. And Germany's statement will be:

"Mr. Snowden gave us important information to aid in our investigation." And that will be the end of it.

IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]