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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:04 PM Oct 2013

We'd be better off if Obama WAS a Marxist.

Let's leave discussions of electoral viability out of this. They aren't the point in this thread.

And obviously, he's not(and it was always silly for anybody to ever say that he was).

And let's be clear...I mean a Marxist, not a Marxist-Leninist(the term Stalin invented to turn his bloodsoaked perversion of Marx and Lenin's ideas-not that Lenin was a saint, but he wasn't THAT much of a psycho compared to "Uncle Joe" and his acolytes, although Lenin was to blame for giving Stalin the structural tools needed to carry out his plans)a Marxist being a person who agrees with Marx's original call for a genuinely socialist and genuinely DEMOCRATIC society.

If Obama WAS a Marxist, and had an actual legislative majority in place to carry out his program, we'd have

1)A fuil-employment economy:

2)A properly funded social welfare system for those who did end up needing help(especially children, the elderly, and the physically and mentally challenged)INCLUDING a universal public healthcare program

3)A foreign policy based on peace and reconciliation rather than "defending our 'national interests'&quot which are always simply the interests of the rich)

4)Democratic control of the means of production and democratic workplace management(with co-ops as part of the deal)

5)Access for all to the means of artistic creation and personal self-expression.

6)A media that actually reported the news, rather than simply acting as propagandists for the corporate order.

That's what we'd have if Obama was ACTUALLY a Marxist.

What's not to like?

(And, if he were actually a Muslim, at least we wouldn't have usury...)

Just thought it should be said.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
We'd be better off if Obama WAS a Marxist. (Original Post) Ken Burch Oct 2013 OP
there is still the republican controlled house he would have to deal with JI7 Oct 2013 #1
I included an assumption, in the OP, that he had a Congress he could work with. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #2
if I were President.. stillcool Oct 2013 #3
Would there be borscht? 1000words Oct 2013 #4
Cute. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #8
Sorry, my post was intended to be good-natured 1000words Oct 2013 #15
Not meaning to be harsh in response...misread your intent. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #27
Pass ... But "White Russian" gives me a cracking idea! 1000words Oct 2013 #28
Why a "full-employment economy?" That's crazy. immoderate Oct 2013 #5
because of the damage unemployment does to people. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #6
Unemployment doesn't damage people. Being broke does. immoderate Oct 2013 #11
drudging, disrespected, meaningless work is destructive. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #13
We agree on main point. But citing "Marxist-Leninism" is a straw man. immoderate Oct 2013 #18
That was what I was trying to say. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #20
Question is: Who would Stalin NOT have had shot? immoderate Oct 2013 #21
uh...himself?... Ken Burch Oct 2013 #24
With a planned economy, if we could cover everybody's needs on......... socialist_n_TN Oct 2013 #16
I'm with you. I have heard estimates that society's needs could be met with a 10 hour week. immoderate Oct 2013 #19
Also, a shorter work week would mean full employment. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #33
and unicorns. don't forget the unicorns Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #7
Ok...here ya go... Ken Burch Nov 2013 #38
Yes, yes we would Taverner Oct 2013 #9
Well, yeah, I was aware of that. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #10
IT sucks when we lose. But when we lose when we win? Sucks worse. Taverner Oct 2013 #12
I agree gopiscrap Oct 2013 #14
Remember Trotsky? The CLASSIC Marxist...... socialist_n_TN Oct 2013 #17
I also think of people like James Connolly and Rosa Luxemburg-and John MacLean in Scotland Ken Burch Oct 2013 #26
You seem very confident... brooklynite Oct 2013 #22
Well, everyone who ever proposed any sort of genuine, transformational change Ken Burch Nov 2013 #36
Personally, I think that IF the USA actually became...... socialist_n_TN Nov 2013 #37
Psst! Nobody tell the teabaggers what true Marxism is! Initech Oct 2013 #23
...and be careful about telling them what "teabagging" is, too. n/t. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #25
K&R Rex Oct 2013 #29
...many of whom are making their appearances in this very thread, I see. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #32
wow my ignore list is working overtime! bobduca Oct 2013 #34
Then Glenn Beck would finally have something to shit about. Rex Oct 2013 #35
If Obama were a true Marxist, Jamaal510 Oct 2013 #30
As I said, the OP called on people to put "electability" out of their minds here. Ken Burch Oct 2013 #31
 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
2. I included an assumption, in the OP, that he had a Congress he could work with.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:17 PM
Oct 2013

I wasn't discussing how it would go with Obama having to face the Boehnerhaus.

stillcool

(32,695 posts)
3. if I were President..
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:28 PM
Oct 2013

I would take advantage of executive orders, usurp Congress and pass my own laws. And then I'd be dead.

 

1000words

(7,051 posts)
4. Would there be borscht?
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:31 PM
Oct 2013

Not much of a beet fan. The copious amounts of vodka would be pretty sweet, though.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
8. Cute.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:38 PM
Oct 2013

You could make borscht, but you'd be free to eat whatever ELSE you wanted.

Again, Marxism is NOT Marxist-Leninism, and it doesn't have to have anything at all to do with the Soviet Union.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
27. Not meaning to be harsh in response...misread your intent.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 06:30 PM
Oct 2013

btw, you could make yourself some borscht right now. And they STILL eat it in Russia-even though the place is run by "White Russian" types now.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
5. Why a "full-employment economy?" That's crazy.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:35 PM
Oct 2013

With automation, simply speaking, a small minority of people can accomplish all the work that needs to be done. For example, in a few years there won't be human taxi drivers. Individuals perform tasks that occupied huge masses, and that power is growing exponentially.

Moreover, to create unnecessary tasks to employ people, will lead to destruction of resources that we, as a society, will need to preserve.

--imm

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
6. because of the damage unemployment does to people.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:37 PM
Oct 2013

Also, we could find a way to make sure that, if mundane tasks could be taken care of by machines or 'bots, that everyone would be paid to do work that was actually creative and fulfilling.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
11. Unemployment doesn't damage people. Being broke does.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:49 PM
Oct 2013

A society organized with automation in mind, and with people's basic needs fulfilled, will not have to worry much about dreaming up busy-work for them.

The problem with work is it's destructive. And there won't be enough to go around. Although in some sense, we aren't too far apart either.

--imm

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
13. drudging, disrespected, meaningless work is destructive.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 04:59 PM
Oct 2013

If not work, than at least everybody would be given the chance to actually put their efforts into what they genuinely feel to be their own true purpose in life(something that never happened in any Marxist-Leninist society, btw, which is why what I'm saying here is nothing in common with any endorsement of the Soviet era).

The real point is, no one would be discarded and disrespected. No one would be considered valueless.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
18. We agree on main point. But citing "Marxist-Leninism" is a straw man.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 11:41 PM
Oct 2013

I'm quite sure Marx would have nothing to do with Lenin.

--imm

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
20. That was what I was trying to say.
Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:10 PM
Oct 2013

When people on the right say "Marxism", they usually mean what the Stalinists got up to. I was trying to clarify the massive distinction.

If Marx had come back to life and showed up in Moscow during Stalin's era, Stalin would have had him shot.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
16. With a planned economy, if we could cover everybody's needs on.........
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 07:05 PM
Oct 2013

20 hours a week, we would. That would probably be the end result of full employment, 20 hours or so a week. And if you wanted to work more, I don't think there would be a problem with that.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
19. I'm with you. I have heard estimates that society's needs could be met with a 10 hour week.
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 11:45 PM
Oct 2013

But we are in the same arena.

--imm

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
33. Also, a shorter work week would mean full employment.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:23 PM
Oct 2013

A lot of people want to work, want to have, if nothing else, somewhere to go each day and some purpose to fulfill. Few people, in my experience, really enjoy total idleness.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
17. Remember Trotsky? The CLASSIC Marxist......
Tue Oct 29, 2013, 07:06 PM
Oct 2013

and the Marxist road not taken. His tendency he called Bolshevik-Leninist because it was based on the principles of the Bolshevik Party.

Thanks for the thread Ken.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
26. I also think of people like James Connolly and Rosa Luxemburg-and John MacLean in Scotland
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 05:27 PM
Oct 2013

People should look their stories up, and read about what THEY stood for.

 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
22. You seem very confident...
Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:59 PM
Oct 2013

...considering you have no evidence from an actual political system to prove your claims.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
36. Well, everyone who ever proposed any sort of genuine, transformational change
Fri Nov 1, 2013, 05:33 PM
Nov 2013

had to be confident that what hadn't been done before might be doable in the future.

"progressives" who don't believe that should just become conservatives and be done with it.

You defeat yourself when you assume that the future can only be a repeat of the past.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
37. Personally, I think that IF the USA actually became......
Fri Nov 1, 2013, 05:49 PM
Nov 2013

Marxist, it would take out the BIGGEST and most rabid anti-socialist force in the world for the last century of so. Which would actually ALLOW a socialist style system to develop normally and without being undermined 24/7, overtly and covertly, militarily and economically, by the capitalist bully boyz. I wonder what that would be like?

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
35. Then Glenn Beck would finally have something to shit about.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:28 PM
Oct 2013

Can you imagine his reaction if Obama really was a Marxist?

He would go from this;


To this;
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Jamaal510

(10,893 posts)
30. If Obama were a true Marxist,
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 06:58 PM
Oct 2013

he would've never gotten elected in the first place. Moderates are the majority in America, while self-proclaimed liberals barely make up 20% of the population.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
31. As I said, the OP called on people to put "electability" out of their minds here.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:20 PM
Oct 2013

And as far as that goes, a lot of people CALL themselves "moderates", but take positions on the issues that aren't moderate at all, but are, in many cases(such as the continued massive majority support for single-payer healthcare)quite liberal or even radical.

Americans use terms like "moderate", "centrist", or even "conservative" in some cases as short-hand for "common sense" or "practical", rather than as actual ideological markers.

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