My take on the NSA

[SamYeager]

This is not a safe world and an organization with collects information and keeps secrets is absolutely necessary for the existence of a great nation.

That said, abuse by such an organization can be conducted easily without great oversight.

This is why the Legislative and Judicial branches of government must keep a close eye upon such an organization and must rein them in constantly.

There is a balance between the three branches and that balance was broken with the introduction of the USA PATRIOT Act and it must be done away with. Intelligence agencies abused their powers before that act, but this law enshrined abuse of power into the very essence of such organizations.

That's all I have to say about that.

[darkangel218]

1. Welcome to DU

[Coyotl]

2. Wow, are you ever wrong, wrong, wrong.

The solution is to create a safe world.

[SamYeager]

4. A safe world cannot be created overnight. n/t

[Coyotl]

10. Is that why the NSA must spy on the Legislative and Judicial branches of government?

And on Democratic party candidates for high offices?

[SamYeager]

12. I don't agree that they should

I stated so in my OP.

The Legislative and Judicial branches need the power to rein them in. What power they once had, and it was not enough, was thrown out when the USA PATRIOT Act went into place.

[leftstreet]

3. 'safe world' 'great nation' Ugh. n/t

[SamYeager]

5. Are you denying that this is not a safe world?

Are you denying that the US is great nation?

[leftstreet]

6. I just wanted to hear more about the great NSA

Sounds like this thread will be a detailed discussion of the benefits of the NSA

[SamYeager]

8. The NSA is really pretty screwed up.

It has been for quite some time.

The USA PATRIOT Act gave them the power to do as they please without workable oversight and the organization took full advantage of that abusing that power to the nth degree.

And the NSA was pretty much out of control well before that, too.

[Enthusiast]

7. The greatest danger to this nation has nothing to do with "terrorism".

[Pretzel_Warrior]

9. Oh do tell us about the jackbooted thugs and FEMA camps

It's almost Halloween and I do loves me some scary fiction.

[SamYeager]

11. I disagree, it has everything to do with terrorism.

The greatest danger in this country is the fact that we, as a nation, gave up everything that makes us great when we allowed the abomination of a USA PATRIOT Act to be passed all in the name of fighting terrorism.

[Enthusiast]

19. I get your point.

Yes, terrorism was the catalyst that allowed (justified) the NSA overreach and such.

[Coyotl]

13. Actually, it has a lot to do with creating terrorism.

Terrorism is a response top the actions of the USA. Those actions are the root of the problem.

[randome]

16. So the terrorist bombings in Iraq are because of America? Yemen? Nigeria?

America is not blameless but it is also isn't responsible for everything that is wrong in the world.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Enthusiast]

18. That is part of it for sure.

That is why I call the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq counterproductive. Nothing positive will result from those wars. Nothing. As useless as Vietnam. Look at the number of people we have alienated forever. And look how the nation's credibility has crumbled.

[randome]

14. The NSA's job is to monitor foreign communications.

What gets people's dander up is that they're so good at it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[DanM]

15. You miss some things with your opinion

Collecting information that requires warrants by getting secret warrants from a rubber-stamp secret court is never OK.

Keeping secrets that don't REALLY need to be secrets is never OK (for a government agency).

You completely left out self-monitoring and holding one's self personally to constitutional principles. In addition to oversight from other branches of government, there is such a thing as self-control. If you are an individual agent of a government agency, no matter how many laws or rubber-stamp warrants are given to your agency that would allow your agency to violate constitutional principles, you are personally morally responsible to ignore such bad laws and warrants and not violate constitutional principles.

[SamYeager]

17. You cannot trust any of the agents to self regulate.

Once granted power, it will be abused without great oversight. You need completely separate organizations to watch the watchers.

And such a watching organization should be completely outward facing. Internal intelligence gathering must be kept separate and must follow the 4th amendment. This is where law enforcement steps in and warrants are an absolute must.

[DanM]

21. Not "trust" to self-regulate, "responsible" to self-regulate . . .

There is a difference, and I expressed the latter. The latter is what people can be held accountable to.

Breaking people's trust in you can't be made a criminal offense, but breaking your responsibility can if the responsibilities involve not depriving other people's life, liberty, or rights.

My point is not that agents will all self-regulate. My point is they have a *responsibility* to do so. And there needs to be criminal sanctions if they don't.

I do not use the word "trust", nor do I imply it.

[haele]

20. My take - it has been grown to the point it controls it's own oversight.

There are groups - agents, employees - that still earnestly work for the United States of America, but for the most part, the organization of the NSA exists to sustain itself and serve US interests - not necessarily serve the citizens and security of the country.

There is a difference between the needs of US interests and US citizens.

The question then becomes, how do you unhook any reasonable intelligence requirements from an entrenched doctrinal culture. There is still a need for national security, but how much is actually necessary, and how much is "just too profitable to give up..."?

Haele