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Thu Oct 10, 2013, 04:37 AM

Tea Party congressman Joe Barton (TX): "Wind is a finite resource ...".

?w=640

http://injusticebydesign.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/gone-with-the-wind/

Wind energy controversy

In June 2010, Barton has questioned the wisdom of deficit spending to fund an extensive national wind turbine energy generation grid. He said, "Wind is Godís way of balancing heat. Wind is the way you shift heat from areas where itís hotter to areas where itís cooler. Thatís what wind is. Wouldnít it be ironic if in the interest of global warming we mandated massive switches to wind energy, which is a finite resource, which slows the winds down, which causes the temperature to go up? Now, Iím not saying thatís going to happen, Mr. Chairman, but that is definitely something on the massive scale. I mean, it does make some sense. You stop something, you canít transfer that heat, and the heat goes up. Itís just something to think about."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Barton

Do these guys really believe this stuff? Or are they just throwing BS out there to confuse the gullible and achieve the political goals of the oil industry?

59 replies, 41498 views

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Arrow 59 replies Author Time Post
Reply Tea Party congressman Joe Barton (TX): "Wind is a finite resource ...". (Original post)
pampango Oct 2013 OP
Cha Oct 2013 #1
dorkzilla Oct 2013 #4
MADem Oct 2013 #2
Jackpine Radical Oct 2013 #52
MADem Oct 2013 #56
Fridays Child Oct 2013 #3
newfie11 Oct 2013 #5
barbtries Oct 2013 #6
A Physicist Oct 2013 #7
brush Oct 2013 #11
tclambert Oct 2013 #15
berni_mccoy Oct 2013 #21
tclambert Oct 2013 #22
berni_mccoy Oct 2013 #29
Scuba Oct 2013 #13
berni_mccoy Oct 2013 #24
Bolo Boffin Oct 2013 #8
BillyRibs Oct 2013 #9
brush Oct 2013 #10
nxylas Oct 2013 #12
A Physicist Oct 2013 #14
tclambert Oct 2013 #19
A Physicist Oct 2013 #25
tclambert Oct 2013 #28
A Physicist Oct 2013 #31
diane in sf Oct 2013 #23
Post removed Oct 2013 #16
berni_mccoy Oct 2013 #17
Ganja Ninja Oct 2013 #18
A Physicist Oct 2013 #20
A Physicist Oct 2013 #33
Neoma Oct 2013 #26
Paulie Oct 2013 #27
Warren Stupidity Oct 2013 #35
liberal N proud Oct 2013 #30
Alkene Oct 2013 #32
Liberalynn Oct 2013 #48
Warren Stupidity Oct 2013 #34
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Oct 2013 #36
tanyev Oct 2013 #37
aintitfunny Oct 2013 #38
dinger130 Oct 2013 #39
Javaman Oct 2013 #40
Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2013 #41
jberryhill Oct 2013 #42
hatrack Oct 2013 #43
winter is coming Oct 2013 #44
Snake Plissken Oct 2013 #45
Orsino Oct 2013 #47
Old and In the Way Oct 2013 #46
CanonRay Oct 2013 #49
lonestarnot Oct 2013 #50
northoftheborder Oct 2013 #51
L0oniX Oct 2013 #53
walkerbait41 Oct 2013 #54
jsr Oct 2013 #55
TomCADem Oct 2013 #57
NuclearDem Oct 2013 #58
Hungwa Feb 2015 #59

Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 04:46 AM

1. Either way.. it's stupid is as stupid blows. I think I hear "God"

telling him to sit down and stfu.

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Response to Cha (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:15 AM

4. Hahahahahahahaha!

Well said, Cha, well said indeed...

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 04:57 AM

2. Keep feeding that asshole beans! Hell, he's fartin' out his mouth as it is!!! nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 10:38 AM

52. No, No!!

Farts are methane, a terrible greenhouse gas!

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #52)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 01:16 PM

56. Light 'em on fire, they'll warm up the room; reduce our reliance on fossil fuels!!!

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:07 AM

3. There's definitely a stiff breeze blowing between his ears.

And I suspect that's not his only personal wind source. In fact, if Texas decides to harness Joe Barton, the entire 6th Congressional District could probably go off the grid.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:28 AM

5. Not sure if they are that stupid

Or playing to a gullible base with low intelligence.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:29 AM

6. the latter

has to be. right? they cannot be that stupid can they?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:36 AM

7. Barton is roughly correct

Oddly enough and for probably all the wrong reasons he is correct.

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Response to A Physicist (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:02 AM

11. Roughly correct how? nt

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Response to brush (Reply #11)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:18 AM

15. The atmosphere is finite, and wind turbines can raise temperatures.

The atmosphere and the wind energy in Earth's atmosphere is a finite resource. Finite but really, really huge. The air covers the entire planet miles deep, and windmills can only harvest the wind energy of a minuscule fraction of it.

Turbines converting wind energy into electricity will result in some waste heat. A really, really small amount. Probably unmeasurably small on a global scale.

I'm sure his alternative is to burn more oil. At that point, he doesn't want to talk about finite resources or rising temperatures. He might have to admit global warming existed, and that we will run out of oil not that far in the future.

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Response to tclambert (Reply #15)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:29 AM

21. Sorry, meant to respond to the other poster.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #21)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:31 AM

22. Well, okay then.

I was going to scold you for reading only the (sarcastic) title of my post and not the text, which essentially said the same thing you said. I guess we'll just have to agree to agree.

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Response to tclambert (Reply #22)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:37 AM

29. :-)

Agreed!

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Response to A Physicist (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:14 AM

13. Yes, he's correct except for the part about everything he said ...

 

Wind is cold air moving in to displace warm air that's getting less dense. A physicist should know this.


Barton is a moron and a shill for big oil.

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Response to A Physicist (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:32 AM

24. Um, no, not at all

Yes, the matter in the atmosphere is finite. But wind energy is derived from solar, so we won't run out of wind until the sun dies (yes, even the sun is finite, but it's infinite compared to the amount of fossil fuels on the planet). In that sense, wind is referred to as a renewable energy (because the sun will make more for us). And the temperature differential from wind turbines is minuscule compared to temperature change that results from dumping more carbon into the atmosphere.

Please don't add to the ignorance someone like this representative would create.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:50 AM

8. Brains are a finite resource in D.C. n/t

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 05:53 AM

9. WTF, Really!?

 

Are you That Stupid!? or Is your district!?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:00 AM

10. How he hell did that . . .

dumb fuck get elected? Jesus Christ, where do the repugs get them?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:07 AM

12. That's science, that is

Unskewed science.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:15 AM

14. The Laws of Thermodynamics and Unintended Consequences working in Unison

ďĎLarge-scale exploitation of wind energy will inevitably leave an imprint in the atmosphere,í says Kleidon. ĎBecause we use so much free energy, and more every year, we'll deplete the reservoir of energy.í He says this would probably show up first in wind farms themselves, where the gains expected from massive facilities just won't pan out as the energy of the Earth system is depleted.

Using a model of global circulation, Kleidon found that the amount of energy which we can expect to harness from the wind is reduced by a factor of 100 if you take into account the depletion of free energy by wind farms. It remains theoretically possible to extract up to 70 TW globally, but doing so would have serious consequences.

Although the winds will not die, sucking that much energy out of the atmosphere in Kleidon's model changed precipitation, turbulence and the amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth's surface. The magnitude of the changes was comparable to the changes to the climate caused by doubling atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide.Ē

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028063.300-wind-and-wave-farms-could-affect-earths-energy-balance.html?full=true#.UlAE_Z0o5aQ

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Response to A Physicist (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:28 AM

19. Whereas we have an endless supply of oil, and when you burn it, it just vanishes, like magic,

producing no environmental consequences at all. And using a lot of foreign oil encourages international trade, thereby guaranteeing a more peaceful world.

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Response to tclambert (Reply #19)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:33 AM

25. canít find it in the thread.

Who advocated for continued usage and/or expansion of fossil fuels? I canít find it in the thread.

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Response to A Physicist (Reply #25)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:37 AM

28. I assume that is Rep. Barton's (R-Tex) implied alternative.

Why else would he try to run down wind energy? You think he's pro-solar?

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Response to tclambert (Reply #28)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:44 AM

31. However

the reply is to me not Barton or his words.

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Response to A Physicist (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:32 AM

23. Not everyone responding to this article finds it convincing:

Eric Kvaalen

"Well, no, not all solar radiation turns into heat. A lot of it is reflected back to space. It's true that a solar panel may reflect less and may heat up its locality more than what was there before. But let's remember that the amount of solar energy arriving to the earth is vastly greater than the amount of energy (of whatever kind) we use. So if we use solar panels that convert a few percent of the sunlight into electricity, then even if they put a few more percent into the environment as heat we can still get enough electricity without significantly heating up the planet.

What I object to is the sentence, "Photosynthesis also generates free energy, but without producing waste heat." Photosynthesis certainly produces waste heat.

Generally I find this a poor article. First of all, almost all the energy coming to us from the sun is "free energy" because it has a "temperature" of more than 5000 K whereas the earth's surface is around 300 K -- that means that 47/50 of it is free energy. I suppose that Kleidon knows that and has a more sophisticated argument, but this article doesn't sufficiently explain what he's really saying. I remain unconvinced that he has a valid point."

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Response to pampango (Original post)


Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:22 AM

17. WOW Dumber than a box of rocks.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:26 AM

18. If only there was a way to make electricity from pure stupidity.

The Texas GOP is the Saudi Arabia of stupid.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:28 AM

20. Max-Planck Research School for Earth System Modeling

ESTIMATING MAXIMUM GLOBAL LAND SURFACE WIND POWER EXTRACTABILITY AND ASSOCIATED CLIMATIC CONSEQUENCES

L. M. Miller (1,2), F. Gans (1), and A. Kleidon (1)
1 Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry, Jena, Germany
2 International Max-Planck Research School for Earth System Modeling, Hamburg, Germany

ďWe estimate that between 18Ė68TW of mechanical wind power can be extracted from the atmospheric boundary layer over all non-glaciated land surfaces. Although wind power extraction from a single turbine has little effect on the global atmosphere, many more will influence atmospheric flow and reduce the large-scale extraction efficiency. Any extraction of momentum must also compete with the natural process of wind power dissipation by boundary layer turbulence.

Our study focuses on the rate of wind power generation in the climate system rather than previous near-surface estimates that focused on measured wind velocities and engineering limitations (e.g. Archer and Jacobson, 2005; Lu et al., 2009; Santa Maria and Jacobson, 2009). This consideration results in our estimate being significantly less than previous studies while also being independent of wind turbine size or layout.

Given that only 0.03TW of wind-derived electricity was produced in 2008 (World Wind Energy Association, 2008), there is still substantial wind power development possible with relatively minor climatic impacts. However, future plans for large-scale wind power development must recognize the finite potential of the Earth system to generate kinetic wind energy. It has also been suggested that with increased carbon dioxide concentrations, the total atmospheric dissipation rate, and therefore its kinetic energy generation rate, will decrease (Lucarini et al., 2010; Hernīandez-Deckers and von Storch, 2010).

Future plans must accept that the human appropriation of wind power must be accompanied by a climatic effect and with large-scale deployment, will be associated with a decrease in the total atmospheric kinetic energy generation rate. Our estimation methods are certainly extreme, but they nevertheless provide critical understanding of the limits of wind power in the climate system and how it can serve human energy requirements.

Faced with the present-day global energy demand of 17TW and a predicted change to 16Ė120TW by 2100 (EIA, 2009; IPCC, 2007), extreme calculations such as this will provide the maximum power potentials and possible climatic effects of different forms of renewable energy sources planned to fulfill future human energy requirements. This in turn helps to prioritize which renewable energy resources are likely to be successful in meeting the future global human energy demand. More complex modeling studies can help refine our estimates and climatic impacts, but the presence of a maximum in wind power extractability and the associated climatic consequences from this extraction are fundamental.Ē

http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net/2/1/2011/esd-2-1-2011.pdf

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Response to A Physicist (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:55 AM

33. Estimating maximum global land surface wind power...- Interactive Discussion

L. M. Miller, F. Gans, and A. Kleidon

Here objections to the original paper are raised and corrections are made or countered; itís physics not politics.

http://www.earth-syst-dynam-discuss.net/1/169/2010/esdd-1-169-2010-discussion.html

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:34 AM

26. If I were to say something stupid about windmills...

Of would be, "windmills are like fans, and they'll cool the earth down." But what he said is on a whole other level of stupid.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:36 AM

27. He's right! It is finite. Why all the snark?

We only have about 4.5 billion years before the sun turns into a red giant and consumes the earth in the expansion.

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Response to Paulie (Reply #27)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:01 AM

35. We have less than 1B years before earth won't sustain life.

 

I worry for my children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:39 AM

30. As opposed to OIL?



The stupid is really hurting this nation!

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:45 AM

32. If this was breaking news,

would Barton be breaking wind?

(I know that really doesn't make any sense, but I just had to get in a fart reference.)

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Response to Alkene (Reply #32)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:49 AM

48. I was going to say he alone probably

 

breaks enough wind to fuel the whole country for a decade.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 06:58 AM

34. He is regurgitating a talking point about local effects of large wind farms.

 

Designed by the oil and coal lobby propaganda machine to create the usual fud.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:02 AM

36. So are brains Barton and you've used up your allotment.

Idiot.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:27 AM

37. And yet Republican blowhards never run out of ignorant things to say.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:37 AM

38. Not as long as there are Windbags like him around (eom)

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:46 AM

39. This is the same dude

that apologized to BP during the BP OIL SPILL. Remember?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 07:57 AM

40. He and bill o'lielly must have a heck of a time together.

Stupidity makes my brain sad.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:03 AM

41. Only if he stops talking. nt

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:16 AM

42. And the danger of asphyxiation

If we deplete wind using turbines, then people will suffocate from not enough mixing of fresh air.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:19 AM

43. "Wind blows in. Wind blows out. You can't explain that."

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:20 AM

44. Proving, once again, that hot air is limitless....

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:21 AM

45. Wind is Godís way of balancing heat

wind energy, which is a finite resource, which slows the winds down, which causes the temperature to go up

There you have it, the real cause of warming is anything that obstructs the flow of winds, that why clear cutting the Amazon Rain Forest will cold down the planet. Next we need to start knocking down all of the building on the planet which obstruct the wind.

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Response to Snake Plissken (Reply #45)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:45 AM

47. OMG. Barton just said God is finite! n/t

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:25 AM

46. so he believes humans can influence the climate.

Rediverting alittle wind vs. Burning oil...I wonder which has a bigger impact on globalvwarming?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:50 AM

49. Please tell me this is the onion...

It is, right?

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 08:51 AM

50. LMAO. I've got some finite wind for him.

 

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 09:06 AM

51. duct tape needed for all Texas Repub. congressperson's mouths.....OMG why can't they keep their

moronic thoughts to themselves????????

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 10:43 AM

53. "Wind is a finite resource ...unless it's coming out of my ass"

 

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 11:00 AM

54. Just another republican dumb ass

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Thu Oct 10, 2013, 11:04 AM

55. Slow molecules increase temperature. Makes sense.

LOL.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Sun Oct 13, 2013, 09:17 AM

57. *sigh* - The Chair of the House Energy Committee?

Idiocracy has arrived.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Sun Oct 13, 2013, 09:19 AM

58. Well, it's alright, it's not like he sits on the...

 

...oh for fuck's sake.

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Response to pampango (Original post)

Wed Feb 11, 2015, 01:51 AM

59. Working on sending a personal message

 

Have no care to be here just wanna be able to send a PM.

That's All.

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