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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI was never taught Phonics in school
Okay As many of you chasites me about I am a terrible speller. I will be the first to admit this. I will say I was never taught Phonics in school. I clearly remember sitting on the floor in front of the teacher who said "Now normally this is where I would teach you Phonics but we have a new way of learning now and we will be sight words".
I have a general grasp of the rules and can figure out the word in front of me BUT I do get confused at times.
Did anyone else learn sight words or know what I'm talking about?
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)but I suppose that is why they gave us so many book reports to do, even over the summer. Read, read, read! I did have to learn phonics when I was taught Gregg Shorthand in HS. It wasn't difficult.
Hestia
(3,818 posts)phonetics. We had one for each grade level. The paper smelled wonderful. I still remember those workbooks.
no_hypocrisy
(46,080 posts)I never really liked phonics as there were words that defied spelling like they sounded like blue, yellow, night. I was more Esperanto oriented I guess. Nonetheless when sight words came along, it was easier to just memorize them and their spelling for recognition in the future than to sound out all the letters.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Where they tried to teach me to sight read..
Needless to say it didn't take.
canoeist52
(2,282 posts)I asked the K-3 teachers about this in the 90's and was told that they taught both methods simultaneously. Phonics is the most important for sounding out new words, in my opinion. Sight reading - using visual memory- helps for faster reading.
In an interesting aside, my grandmother taught me to read in 1960, by writing words in crayon on paper slips, placing them over pillows and having me prick the outlines with a pin -a form of sight-reading, I guess. I could read before I started kindergarten.
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)I was desperate to read as a young child and was reading by age 4 by hearing words as I saw them. Like you I'm no great shakes at spelling even though phonics was taught when i started school.
madokie
(51,076 posts)and when the teacher tried to teach me how to write I was daydreaming about what I was going to do to my whatever it was at the time project I was creating so to some I come across as a putz. I don't mind though as I'm probably thinking, in the back of my head, of the project I'm doing when I write many of my replies.
splchk
Island Blue
(5,815 posts)I never learned Phonics in school either. They were doing an "experiment" with my grade in the school system where I attended 1st grade (in the late 60's). As a result (I suppose) my spelling has always been terrible. Ironically though, my spelling has improved some during the past several years due to using computers, not just because spell check corrects my mistakes, but because I can SEE the corrections being made and that has me remember how to spell certain words that have always been difficult for me.
Justice wanted
(2,657 posts)Pittsburgh area.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Can't really explain why, but when I have to spell a difficult word, I 'see' it in my mind, as if it's written on a chalkboard. I suppose it's memorization, or I just know how it's to be spelled. I'm a former spelling bee champ; at home and work everyone asks me how to spell.
Are you better at math than spelling? I suck at math. Might have more to do with how our brains are wired.
Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)and he was having a terrible time learning to read. Once I taught him to sound out the words and handed him one of my old Hardy boys books, he was off and running. Second one I taught phonics to as soon as he started school, and he was reading Harry Potter by the summer before 4th grade. The youngest I started on phonics at preschool age, but with his ADD he still struggled. He's actually improved more in the last few years than when he was in school, I think it's because there's no longer any pressure to learn, he does it cause he wants to know, now.
Teaching sight words for (English especially) is stupid. You have to learn HOW to read, not rote memorization.
Don't knock yourself for being a sad speller. I was an early voracious reader.. I even tested at college level in 6th grade, but I still have to write down certain words to see if they are spelled right. I use my backspace key A LOT. Thier, which or wich or witch, niehbor? neihbor? neighbor!
MADem
(135,425 posts)school, and who came home and with no small degree of insistence, forced me at the age of three to participate in a retrospective of the day. I think that's how I learned. I never remember anyone teaching me, and I know that I got shoved out of the classroom to read on my own when those lessons were going down for the rest of my schoolmates.
Pity we didn't have any math whizzes in the family...I always sucked at maths!
libinnyandia
(1,374 posts)class my teacher, Mrs Chase, sent me off to read alone. We didn't have a tv until I was 9, so I spent a lot of time reading.
ananda
(28,858 posts)... and it has been very helpful and useful.
spartan61
(2,091 posts)was the "Whole Language" concept. (no phonics but lots of sight words.) I taught 1st and 2nd grades over the course of my 32 years as a teacher. When Whole Language came out (imported from New Zealand), our admin told the primary teachers not to teach any more phonics but this new and "improved" method of beginning reading. Four of us knew that the children needed tools to help them sound out words, so we would close our doors and continued teaching phonics, along with the whole language sight words. A few years later, we were told to start teaching phonics again because whole language wasn't working. Our answer to him...We never stopped and our children were able to sound out unknown words. There is nothing new in the field of education. The methods are repackaged and sold as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Children need a combination of phonics and sight words to help them succeed in reading. Now I am helping my grandchildren learn the "rules" of reading, and, of course, the "outlaw" words. These are the words that don't follow the rules.
mzteris
(16,232 posts)with the "sight-say" method. (BTW - they call it "whole word" now.) Worked pretty well as I was readying well beyond my grade level by the time I started school.
I moved in 3rd grade to a new state where they taught phonics. I was completely lost the first year, but after I grasped the concept, understood and embraced that, too, and used to my advantage. I've always been an EXCELLENT speller. I could spell words I'd never even seen before by "sounding them out" and applying phonics strategy.
When I taught all three of my children to read - I used a combination of sight-say and a modified (dumbed down - short a, long e sort of thing), along with "whole language" strategy. (Whole language is where they glean the meaning from the sense of the sentence and the surrounding words - and any pictures). That worked very very well for all three. They were all reading at 4. I'd say the ability runs in the family, as my brother and I both read at 4, too - but one of my kids is adopted so go figure. Must be the methodology.
Odd anecdote - they don't even KNOW how my brother learned to read - or really how long he'd been reading. He had a newspaper one day and one of the older cousins kiddingly asked him, "whatcha doing?" "Reading," he said. "Oh really? Well read to us, then!" And he did. Needless to say the entire family was shocked. He doesn't remember "learning" either - he says he can't remember NOT being able to read.
MANative
(4,112 posts)weighing in on my biggest pet peeve other than the fact that Republicans are allowed to breathe. To illustrate part of the problem, I will use, in parentheses, the "alternate spelling or word choice" that the technique taught (taut) today would allow. Bear (bare) with me, because this will be a long rant.
What you were taught (taut) is called "Whole Language" learning, and it's (its) the biggest travesty to befall our education system since Republicans were allowed to breathe (breath). Um, yeah.
This move away from Phonics and English Grammar training was the key reason I left academia. I could not then (than), and do not now, support raising generations of semi-literate Americans. Here (hear) are the ramifications, from both sides of the issue:
The Supposed Pros (Pro's):
- Allowing people to spell words as they think they should be spelled frees up "brain space" for creativity.
- It's (its) less difficult for children to learn than (then) all those weird English homonyms.
- What you write will still be "interpreted" accurately by a reader.
The Actual Cons (Con's):
- Spelling words in "alternate" ways can dramatically change the meaning of the entire expression.
- Missing or inaccurate punctuation can dramatically change the meaning of the entire expression.
- When people have to "interpret" rather than (then) just read, absorb, and digest, it can dramatically change the meaning of the entire expression.
I write (rite or right) both technical (educational) materials and fiction, and also edit both. I do this as my main source of income and as a volunteer for several writers' websites. When SPaG (Spelling, Grammar, and Punctuation) are non-standard, a reader cannot use the visual cues to properly and easily process the information and can readily confuse meanings so that what they walk away with is not at all what the writer intended.
The single biggest complaint that I hear (here) from my corporate clients is that no one under age thirty-five is able to write a coherent, cohesive memo. The use of commas, semicolons, periods, and quotation marks seem, at times, to be optional. When they are used, they are used incorrectly more than (then) half of the time. The hours I spend correcting literally every sentence in a book's twenty-page chapter so that it is readable are testament to that. Yes, you've all seen the wacky spelling exercises that float around on Facebook, and the "Can you read this? If so, you're (your)...." message. And for most people, yes, it can be read. But it will give them a massive headache if they try to do the same for more than (then) a few sentences.
Just this morning, I downloaded two ebooks from Amazon. In the first, I found fourteen SPaG errors in the first two pages. I deleted it. In the second, the premise of which had me so hopeful, I found a half dozen errors, including incorrectly used homonyms in the first two paragraphs. I deleted that one, too (to). Wasting my money is one thing; wasting my time is quite another.
Call me a grammar (grammer) Nazi or a spelling snob. I don't really care. I do care about being able to read things that make sense, and communicate my own thoughts accurately. If anyone learned to read and write using "whole language" theory, I hope the individual uses spell and grammar check programs. Sadly, too few of the writers for whom I edit even do that. An interesting trend that I've seen recently: some private schools have started to abandon whole language and are going back to Phonics and Grammar. Sooner or later, a school system or two will probably figure out that it's (its) the better path. Maybe the next generation will be able to write again. And please, everyone, apostrophes are never correct when trying to indicate that something is plural! Rant done, for now.
ETA: I note upthread that someone posted about some school systems having moved away from this method and back to the traditional. Sadly, that has not happened in my area in anything other than private institutions. Maybe there's (theirs) hope.
Mopar151
(9,980 posts)Yes, I use the programs - and I find errors in them! Not bad code, so much, as missing words in spell check ( not in database). The thing is, if you read a LOT, you know what good grammar reads/sounds like, and spell/grammar check is not your only database.
And the English language is not being cooperative, constantly changing and reinventing itself. Maybe this stuff would work better if we taught grammar through reading.
MANative
(4,112 posts)but they are often better than nothing at all. I'm a very accurate writer and, with literally decades of professional editing experience, extremely confident of the rules. There are times when the grammar check tries to "fix" an error that I know, without a single doubt, is correct usage. That drives me nuts, too! Once in a while, I will make a typing mistake that the grammar checker fails to catch. When I do my own proofing again, I find it. Nothing's perfect - not even me! You're very right that those who read more are generally better writers, but as there are fewer good examples to follow, even that advantage only goes so far. How I wish people would use a thesaurus now and again! "Very" is not the only superlative available in our language. Sheesh!
I honestly don't remember how I learned to read for the first time. My grandfather used to tell me that I was able to read the comics to him when I was about thirty months old. I can't remember that far back, but I do know that I was reading children's books long before I went to school, and to this day, I read at least three books per week. Grandpa used to buy me a book every time I finished one, and by the time I was about twelve, I had a collection of nearly a thousand. I had to switch to using ebooks about ten years ago (seriously early tech adopter - Rocket ebook) because I couldn't fit any more paper books in the house! And for some reason, I just can't part with books that I've finished.
I have one new client, a young man about twenty-eight years old, who is a wonderfully creative thinker and engaging storyteller. His punctuation, especially for dialogue, however, is abysmal. We've found him a publisher based on his story's quality, but it'll take weeks to clean up the manuscript. He was a "whole language" student, too. When I introduced him to the real rules of grammar, particularly those for phrases and clauses, he was flabbergasted at how little he'd been taught in those areas. I feel confident that his next book will be a vast improvement over the first, at least in its technical aspects.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Because I learned to read when I was 3!
Though I still have trouble with -able vs. -ible.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)to my children at home. It is important to understand spelling correctly and to learn the basic building units of words and sentences. I also taught them to diagram sentences so that they could understand the function of a word in constructing a sentence and to be able to express themselves coherently.
MANative
(4,112 posts)I used to love diagramming sentences when I was in school. I'd do it when I was reading, just for fun. My deep infatuation with words began at an early age and hasn't yet waned.
mantis49
(813 posts)Diagramming sentences was one of my favorite things to do in Reading/ English classes.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)... I LOVE your (you're) post!
MANative
(4,112 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)More shuld be dun on this kritical subject.
recomens
U wound't of blieved how yer note risemballs sum of teh riting i hafta fix.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)but I'm not sure that phonics is the cure-all for many of the problems the OP and others are pointing out. English orthography is not terribly regularized due to historical change and borrowing, and much English spelling must be learned as opposed to intuited.
The real solution, in my humble opinion, is to get students to read, read, read. And then read some more. Encountering words in context and internalizing the pace and mechanics of well-constructed sentences is just as essential to good writing as memorizing a lot of rules.
That said, if I were teaching, I'd run every seventh-grader through the Chicago Manual of Style over the course of a year to reinforce the mechanics of what they see when they read a well-written text. And I'd be a bitch about correcting essays.
(Disclosure: I, too, am an editor by profession; and I encounter many of the problems you discusseven though the bulk of my clients are academics! Not really bad spelling or mistaking then for than, but a lot of inconsistency, lack of clarity, and just plain sloppiness. I think the advent of word processing has contributed greatly to this.)
MANative
(4,112 posts)The problem for many years was that phonics was almost totally abandoned in favor of the whole language approach, and while I'm sure that replacement had its merits (don't ask me where), it was also thoroughly inadequate to the bigger task. There are few languages that are quite as fluid and have so many exceptions to the rules as English, and that's a constant complicating factor. Consider, then, the fairly substantial usage differences in American English and British English, not just in vocabulary but also in comma, semicolon, and quotation mark use. I edit for both, and I can tell you that it's a bear trying to keep all the differences straight (particularly if I've only had one pot of coffee)!
I completely agree that reading, reading, and then a lot more reading is a critical exercise in building literacy muscle. I also think that children should be required to write much more, and have that writing actually critiqued at the standard level rather than the individual (relative) scale that seems to be so popular today.
Ah, the Chicago Manual of Style. Would that five percent of people for whom I've edited had even known it existed.
Some of the editing that I do is strictly SPaG, but a growing amount is for fiction work, so I'm getting into plot and characterization more. Talk about sloppiness! Tense switching, run-ons, continuity issues... the list of potential (actual) errors is astounding!
Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)I nearly taught myself to read before Kindergarten and thankfully escaped this dreadful practice of "Look-Say".
It always struck me that those ridiculously dull "See Spot Run" books worked on a vocabulary level well below the vocabulary a child would have already mastered by the time they entered school. I would have hated reading had that been my first exposure. Written language is encoded speech. It makes no sense whatsoever to me to decode it using a different method than it was encoded with. English, as irregular as it is, still mostly follows the rules of phonetics.
As an aside, I don't believe in "grade levels" of reading either. When you learn to read, you read. That's it. At least if you've been taught phonics and not word list memorisation. I hate spelling bees too. I think they're a sad waste of brain power!
OK, that's my morning gall spewed. As you were.
malthaussen
(17,187 posts)Although we did have something called "phonetics."
And thereby hangs a moral of some kind.
-- Mal
Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)It came naturally for me. I was so far ahead of the other kids in Kindergarten, the principal had me moved into First Grade after two weeks.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)izquierdista
(11,689 posts)Phonics is a mirage in English, because 500 years ago, when the language was first being put into print, there were several competing spellings. Instead of trying to make it all conform, it became a patchwork quilt of rules. In addition, in the intervening years, pronunciation has changed, so that knight sounds like night, yet the "g" is silent in both words. English is in desperate need of a spelling reform, but who is going to do it? The Americans? The British? Noah Webster made a few modest reforms, making the spelling of color and favor and center phonetic, but he could have gone much further.
Anyone who has taught an ESL class knows that it is impossible to defend English "phonics", and you just give up and say "well, you just have to memorize this". That's where "sight words" come in. The only students that seem to understand are the French speakers, for they can say "yes, the way our language is written, you only get a slight clue as to how the word is actually supposed to sound".
It's more serious than just being a minor irritation that results in the general population having poor spelling skills. Dyslexia is not a learning disability for the individual; it is a disability of a dysfunctional language. Were spelling reforms to be adopted to make English phonetic, like say Italian, the incidence of dyslexia would be greatly reduced. (See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/1225119.stm)
Igel
(35,300 posts)But what makes it possible for Italian to have a simple orthography most would find utterly unacceptable. It's a trade-off, and we've opted one way.
In Italy there are a lot of dialects. There's one standard language that everybody is expected to use. It's much more standard than, say, American English. There are standards for Australian, British, South African, Indian (etc.) Englishes. In fact, in some countries there are more than one standard. We'd have to decide which one standard to adopt for English everywhere.
Yeah. Right.
French is doable because in the 19th century they had a patois extirpation campaign that led, by the early 20th century, to most of the patois being left spoken only by the rustic elderly and the truly rural bumpkins. It worked for Russian--trying to find dialect speakers is a nuisance. I've actually read papers that included lines like, "This paper is the first full description of the vowel phonology for the diaect of _____. This dialect is represented by 3 elderly sisters, 90, 89, and 88, the oldest two mostly deaf, who claim to speak the dialect in the way their parents spoke it before they went to Siberia in in 1939 when the sisters were 9, 8, and 7 years old respectively."
It doesn't mean that Englsh has no rules. Core vocabulary is pretty much Anglo-Saxon and was present in English before the Great Vowel Shift. That means it's fairly regular. Some later vowel mergers are annoying, things like "ate" and "eight", "meat" and "meet" (some of them separate in some dialects of English to the present, some of which merged in standard British English in the 19th century).
Then there's an additional set of rules that applies to Latin/Greek-based words. That accounts for a lot of words.
It's the French borrowings that are a bear. Esp. with more recent borrowings. I like how Czech used to do it: When it borrows a word, it scraps the native orthography. (Now, to show that they're "cultured" they keep the orthography. The idiots.) Better Russian, where the different alphabet makes keeping the Western orthography impossible.
That leaves a group of a few score words that are very high frequency that don't quite follow any rule. Languages change like that.
Sounding out English isn't all that hard, to be honest. Writing it can be, but again--most of the words you learn to start are just Anglo-Saxon. You pretty much have all those past the sounding-out stage before you run into too many words with alternate orthographic systems and by then most kids are past-masters at making words into sight words.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Every letter in the Estonian alphabet has only one pronunciation. There are no silent letters, or words like car and cat where the a is pronounced differently. I spoke only Estonian and learned to read at age 3. It is easy to learn to read Estonian if you speak Estonian.
In kindergarten I started learning English without any no problem. But when we started reading in English, I got confused by words like laugh, trying to pronounce all the letters - la-oo-gah or something like that. The teacher straightened me out and after a while I got the idea -- that English is tricky, for no good reason.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)On the other hand, lots of the simple words used in the first grades do conform to pretty simple rules.
So it should definitely be used for beginning readers, who will rapidly learn that there are too many exceptions.
Proper nouns are particularly awful. E.g. Pierre, South Dakota = "peer".
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)marlakay
(11,451 posts)trying out and to this day she still has spelling and reading issues and she is 32.
Younger daughter 3 years later they went back to phonics, no problems at all
I tried to help older one but it was confusing to mix it up to her.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)totally oblivious to the method, still learn much the same way. I do have ADHD however so my learning is more accomplished like a fishing trawler, catching whatever happens to wander into the path of the net.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)my personal dialect is an amalgam of my Grandparent's County Mayo brogue, the West Virginia accent of my childhood neighbors in Akron, Ohio and the Northern Cities vowel shift. As result, I can not hear a difference in the short vowel sounds in multi-syllable words. For example, to my ear, difference could be differance could be differince could be diffirince. I can generally tell if a word looks wrong, but to try to figure out how it's spelled by how it sounds? Not going to happen!
TheKentuckian
(25,023 posts)I didn't even pay attention to what they were teaching the other kids, it was pointless and very boring. My time was better spent reading real books.