Man openly carrying gun refuses to leave kid's soccer game, athletics director clears field

[Robb]

MUSKEGON, MI -- A man who openly carried a holstered gun at a high school soccer game Thursday led Muskegon Western Michigan Christian leaders to halt the contest against Hudsonville Freedom Christian with 30 minutes remaining.

The man, whose identity was not immediately available, was spotted with the weapon by a Warriors assistant coach, who alerted head coach David Hulings and assistant athletics director Fred VandenBrand.

VandenBrand asked the man to leave, but he refused. Instead, he apparently took the firearm to his car and left it there before returning to the stands. His presence, and the uncertainty if the gun was still being carried, resulted in the game being stopped with 15 minutes into the second half.

"I thought it was necessary to clear the field of players and parents," Hulings said. "It is regretful that the boys on both teams could not finish. I am sorry for the inconvenience, but I thought it best to err on the side of caution.

"Although I personally have no objection to, and do support, his right to carry, the school also has a right under the law to ask him to leave."

Read More: http://highschoolsports.mlive.com/news/article/6622796618235808013/man-openly-carrying-gun-cuts-short-high-school-soccer-game-as-coach-questions-player-fan-safety/

Keep it up, open carry activists!

[NYC_SKP]

1. Don't know any OC activists on this site.

Last edited Fri Sep 27, 2013, 12:48 PM - Edit history (1)

But I always enjoy your 'look at this stupid person with a gun' articles.

It seems like a terrific hobby.

[upaloopa]

5. It doesn't matter. You all are being lumped into the same

mind set. People aren't going to make much of a distinction between carrying a gun in your pants or outside of them. They may not see a gun but an open carry guy reminds you that every day there are more people walking around with loaded weapons.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Open carry represents a threat, in some people's mind.

As if brandishing. That's why I conceal carry. It's a lawful, licensed activity/condition.

[alfredo]

61. And judging from the actions of adults at kids sporting events, a gun in the hands of a

parent is a threat to all.

[Ednahilda]

64. I was thinking the same thing.

I know I'd be nervous to have my kid at an event like that. One never knows what drives a person to carry a gun around a children's game.

As for people who carry guns all the time, it must be so tiring to always be on alert, to feel that danger lies everywhere. Too exhausting for me.

[alfredo]

73. How would you feel if you were one of the referees? Too often referees have been assaulted

by irate parents.

[calimary]

139. Yeah, no kidding! And welcome to DU, Ednahilda!

Glad you're here! Considering the behavior of some of the hothead parents in the bleechers, I think this was probably the only move that could be made. YOUR right to fondle, show off, or strut your fucking guns in public DOES NOT trump MY right not to be bullied or feel threatened by having your damn guns so freely in my face, OR in my presence. Keep the damn things at home where you can play with 'em to your heart's content and your chances of hurting innocent bystanders when you get your temper all worked up is minimized.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. I don't disagree that it can be perceived that way...

Whether it is an actual threat depends on the mindset of the person carrying it. If that person intends to be a threat, then yes, that gun is a force multiplier.

I'm not so much worried about a person carrying, lawfully, openly, or lawfully with a license concealed. It's the people who have them, that should not, by law, have a gun on them, that concern me the most, because chances are much higher, that nefarious intent is on their minds.

[alfredo]

69. We don't know why he felt he should carry a gun to a kids soccer game. Does he fear a terrorist

attack on the game, or he is saying he wants to be left alone?

[AtheistCrusader]

83. Maybe he didn't want to leave it in the car.

Guns are stolen from cars a lot. Perhaps he was going somewhere else before or after the game?

[secondvariety]

91. Maybe he

should have left it at home. WTF compels people to carry a gun all the time?

[alfredo]

131. Fear

[alfredo]

133. It's just not appropriate to carry a gun to a school, especially after Sandy Hook.

[Generic Other]

162. They obviously think they are making a statement

but they have no clue of the panic they also create. Bringing guns into public places make you look suspicious and potentially dangerous.

I do not know why anyone would not act to get as far away from a potential random shooter as possible.

And whether these gun toters realize it or not, they are increasingly being perceived as threats to public safety. And if the police get calls, they will act. Disturbing the peace is a crime.

And I think the school did the right thing. Anyone who spots this kind of confrontational activity on school grounds, should evacuate for the sake of safety. Put these idiots on notice that

law abiding people are sick of being their targets.

[SomethingFishy]

84. Well, frankly, the mindset of a person who feels the need to open carry a weapon

to a fucking high school soccer game, scares the shit out of me. A person so paranoid, so freaked out by the world around them that they feel the need to carry a weapon to a school function, needs to not come to the school functions.

I love folks who keep saying "you don't know their mindset". Yes I don't, that is exactly the point, and when I see someone open carrying a gun I assume they want to use it. You say you don't worry about a person legally open carrying, it's the people who are illegally carrying who worry you... How can you tell who is who? Are we giving out "I'm legal t-shirts?


Violent crime is DOWN 12% IN THE PAST 6 YEARS. Yet people seem to think they need to be better armed more often.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. That's the interesting thing.

Violent crime is down, while concealed carry and open carry is up. If the people carrying legally were a huge problem, they would be counted as crimes as well.

I don't know where that guy was coming from, or going to after the game. I certainly disapprove of leaving a gun in the car, because that's an excellent way for a gun to get into the hands of the sort of person you DO NOT want to have a gun.

It's probable he was just carrying to carry. I don't know.


The last woman that made headlines for this ended up getting killed by her husband, he killed her from behind while she wasn't looking. So I don't know that people who carry are just being ridiculously paranoid. Some have a reason to do so. (Having a gun didn't help her in the end, because she didn't see the attack coming.)

[SomethingFishy]

87. So you think this guy had a reason to open carry to a school sporting event?

If this man's life was in danger, if he had an actual reason to carry the gun then he shouldn't have been somewhere where his issues could put someone elses life in danger.

This is what worries me about "responsible" gun owners. This guy is probably considered a "responsible" gun owner. Kind of like Ted Nugents wife who was so "responsible" that she sent a loaded weapon through security at an airport and claimed she "forgot it was there".

[AtheistCrusader]

90. I agree, the 'nuge's' wife was completely irresponsible.

If she could forget a gun in there at the airport, she can forget a gun in a bag where a kid can get it.


Again, I don't know the soccer guy's deal. He might be carrying to carry. He might have a genuine reason for it. He might just be exercising a right, regardless of social convention, just to exercise it. I don't know. I wish the story was a little clearer. For instance, his motive, and who owns the stadium. If the school owns the stadium, then likely he was trespassing. And that is a crime.

[truebluegreen]

117. All this discussion of motive is pointless,

since the point is the average person cannot know the motive of any person open carrying, with the possible exception of LE.

If someone is open carrying where I am, I leave.

[AtheistCrusader]

118. Officer Dorner?

[truebluegreen]

119. What's your question?

[AtheistCrusader]

121. I guess you did specify 'possible exception'.

[truebluegreen]

136. Yes, I did.

Given the repeated reports of abuse by our militarized police, it is only "possible", not assured.

[cynzke]

167. I see one potential problem......

A bunch of gun nuts who thinks it is now their obligation to show up at these games, armed and in numbers to "uphold" their right to bear arms. Aren't there usually community bans of weapons on school property?

[YllwFvr]

154. scott and meleanie hain

I knew her, and him by reputation, which was not good. He was in law enforcement. Murder suicide and the kids saw it happen. I cant imagine what they have to go through.

[Major Nikon]

88. They actually bother me less than the concealed carry crowd

At least someone who open carries self-identifies as a paranoid reactionary and can be avoided. It's the loons like Zimmerman that you have to worry more about.

[AlinPA]

111. To me it depends on how it is "open carried".Walking around with a shotgun or handgun in your hands

can be very alarming to some, especially in populated places. To me, carrying a shotgun or high powered rifle in your hands should be limited to sport hunting areas.

[ManiacJoe]

150. "In your hands" would normally be considered brandishing (illegal).

[YllwFvr]

151. depends on your state i guess

But not in Pa.

[aquamarina]

89. ^^^ this to infinity ^^^

"I love folks who keep saying "you don't know their mindset". Yes I don't, that is exactly the point, and when I see someone open carrying a gun I assume they want to use it. You say you don't worry about a person legally open carrying, it's the people who are illegally carrying who worry you... How can you tell who is who? Are we giving out "I'm legal t-shirts?"

[Generic Other]

164. This is a passive aggressive act on their parts

They probably do fantasize about being in gunfights. Like George Zimmerman. But they are afraid to really become random shooters, so they must find another way to terrorize the public because they get a thrill seeing the reaction of others, the fear in the eyes of people who encounter them, the anxiety and tension they create. They thrive on the sense of power.

I am sure the majority of gun owners would not act like these individuals just as the majority will never become random shooters. But within this open carry group, I cannot say the same. They seem as close to being unstrung as the random shooters. And that is a public safety issue.

They are not helping the public feel as though gun owners are responsible and can be trusted to make wise decisions.

[heaven05]

170. +1000

[uppityperson]

32. I don't think that is the problem at all. More like brandishing a gun is the issue.

Seeing someone openly carry a gun, not when going hunting but randomly, like to a kids' soccer game, reminds me they don't care who knows, more of an intimidation thing.

I in no way reminds me there are concealed guns. Besides, why would banning open carry make anyone feel better if they are concerned about concealed. Illogical.

[upaloopa]

34. I think that when you see someone with a gun

you are also reminded that there are people with guns you can't see.
It reminds me of that fact.

[Not Sure]

36. I live in Texas. I don't need reminding there are zealots all around with guns

[uppityperson]

108. It might remind "you" but not me. Seeing them carried out open all they are for is intimidation.

I have friends who are ccw (if I've the right acronym). And I know there are people carrying illegally. But the only reason I can see for openly carrying in a situation like the OP's is intimidation.

[alfredo]

74. Open carried guns seem to be for intimidation.

[freshwest]

146. +1

[LanternWaste]

25. No more and no less than involving oneself in them

"It seems like a terrific hobby..."

No more and no less than involving oneself in them. However, I imagine that could be imaginatively rationalized away to better illustrate a creative distinction without a difference.

[NYC_SKP]

33. There's a difference.

Preaching to a choir, digging up a daily story or three that demonstrate the obvious is a lot of work with little impact.
The post gets a lot of recs, woo hoo.

Often, the minority or alternative view posts provide for more productive and enlightening discussion.

[Squinch]

127. I disagree that they have little impact. Looking through the "latest threads" you can't get

complacent about this issue, because Robb reminds us that there are people dying senselessly every day.

I find I am more active on this issue, and I think these threads contribute to my motivation.

[NYC_SKP]

129. I don't doubt that this is true.

But I would wager that getting the other side to see the light, or to inform those on the fence or entirely unaware, would be a better use of energy.

To each their own, it's all good!

[Squinch]

132. I see your point, but I begin to think that there are some who will not

budge from their present positions, and their present positions are that any regulation of guns is a dramatic insult to them personally. Fortunately, I think they are in the very small minority.

And as you say, it's all good.

[rurallib]

27. Hmm - opt for safety or hope the guy with the gun doesn't shoot

i will opt for safety and leave.

[BainsBane]

96. I don't know about activists

but some support it. See the recent thread on the subject in the gungeon.

[NYC_SKP]

99. I considered the two polls you posted.

It's interesting because at least on member who stands strongly in favor of stricter gun control selected OC so that they and others can see what weapons people have.

While this makes sense in theory, in practice bad people will hide or reveal their weapons as suits their evil needs regardless of laws.

In any event, I think the key word is "activists". I don't think we have any.

And Krispos and others are firmly opposed to Open Carry in most cases, certainly in urban settings and around people and crowds who might be alarmed by the sight.

Here in California it just isn't something one sees anymore.

[BainsBane]

101. That wasn't my poll

Truthfully, I didn't read the threads leading up to that to really follow the ins and outs of the whole thing.

[NYC_SKP]

104. Oh, you're right, I was thinking about the other polls.

In any event, it seems that most gun owners or gun rights supporters on this site are generally against OC.

[BainsBane]

105. Yes, that's my impression

but that's not the same as saying none support it.

[Katashi_itto]

106. Cool, ever incident like this works at changing attitudes making people realize carrying a gun is a

threat. It was the same way with cigarettes. Went from acceptance to what they are now.

[sulphurdunn]

128. No body in right fucking mind

prances around, showing of his 2nd Amendment rights, at a high school sporting event. The fact that such a person is obviously fucking insane and carrying a weapon makes him extremely dangerous.

[NYC_SKP]

130. He's an imbecile, to be sure. And dangerous.

Had this been a public school in the same state, he'd have been within his rights to stay.

How crazy is that?

[YllwFvr]

153. without a permit

You cannot carry a gun within 1000 feet of a school. With a permit i dont believe you can enter school property. The first is federal, the second may be, im not sure. He should have been made to leave, by police if necessary. If it was on school property it was probably a serious violation.

I used to OC regularly, still do it sometimes. I was also an activist for firearms rights on a state and local level in a grass roots movement to get local municipalities to change their firearms laws/ ordinances to properly reflect what state law requires. It was mostly effective.

[sulphurdunn]

169. That's straight jacket crazy.

[upaloopa]

2. They are going to help the cause of gun control

more than Brady could ever do.
People can see for themselves how screwed up we have become over gun rights.

[NYC_SKP]

35. I agree and wonder if any of them are plants.

Not this one in particular, but it would be a brilliant way to stir up "concern" that could lead to fear-based legislation.

In any event, they sure have the IQ of a plant!

[HERVEPA]

57. Alex Jones, is that you?

[Katashi_itto]

107. You must watch alot of Alex Jones, while polishing your guns.

[NYC_SKP]

109. LOL. Is this your chosen style of adult political discussion?

I won't stoop to your level and offer imaginary ideas of what you watch and what you do.

I'll just say, no, I don't watch any Alex Jones and I don't polish guns, ever.

To think that only Right Wing zealots use trickery to make a political point and that others never would is pretty naive.

[Katashi_itto]

115. I'm not the one babbling about plants...

[NYC_SKP]

125. Crafty tricks are used by all parties on occasion. It's nothing new.

Welcome to the world of politics, Katahi_itto.

When I was younger I also didn't think it possible that people on the right side would be deceptive, but it's always been with us.

Truth is stranger than fiction with these matters.

In this case I don't think anything is a crafty trick, but I do wonder about the idiots with AR15s in public places.

Most, I'm sure, are just assholes, but if I wanted to stir up some support for gun control legislation, this would be one way to do it.

Why not, when the objective is nobel?

[Katashi_itto]

134. Wow...total Alex Jones...

[NYC_SKP]

135. Tell me more about this person place or thing.

You seem to be an expert, maybe a fan?

[Shrike47]

3. OC fans should go to Oakland.

[Bay Boy]

7. I would prefer

Auckland as in New Zeeland myself

[tblue]

13. Why?

I like Oakland.

[hunter]

19. In the poorer neighborhoods of Oakland they'd be shot or mugged.

Look! It's a free gun!

Like taking candy from a baby...

[Starry Messenger]

39. Oakland is nice, it doesn't deserve these assholes

[Gormy Cuss]

55. +1 n/t

[BlueStreak]

4. Obviously the solution is to arm the kids

And it wouldn't cost that much to outfit them in Kevlar. They make that in school colors, after all.

[Robb]

8. Armor the ball and they can play "gun polo." nt

[KansDem]

6. "...he apparently took the firearm to his car and left it there before returning to the stands."

Oh, yeah! That's really safe!

How many cars are broken into each year?

[Bay Boy]

9. Actually some of the prohibitions on concealed carry force

people to leave their carry weapons in the car. Which is why I argue that the list should be whittled down.

[A Simple Game]

70. Makes a lot of sense.

We should allow people to bring weapons to schools and school activities. It would be foolish as an adult concerned with the safety of children to say to yourself, "Gee, I'm going to the school soccer game, maybe I should leave my gun at home so I won't be asked to leave or have to leave it in the car?". That would just be stupid wouldn't it?

[Bay Boy]

124. What if...

...you are coming from work?

[A Simple Game]

137. Any place I worked in recent years, if you brought a firearm with you it would be your last day.

There are very few employers that would tolerate even the slightest chance of someone going postal.

Perhaps where you work is an exception.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Ask Drug Czar Gil Kerlikowske.

His service pistol is still 'at large' for this reason.

[Lizzie Poppet]

82. I couldn't do that safely with my car, that's for sure.

It's a hatchback...no locking trunk. I don't consider any situation in which the only thing between a criminal and my firearm is a pane of glass to be acceptable. That's irresponsible.

This guy sounds like he tried to accommodate the AD's wishes, but he didn't think it through properly. I'd never assume bringing a firearm to a stadium is ever going to be acceptable, so the obvious response is to leave the weapons at home. If you think that's unsafe, then FFS, don't go to the game!

[onehandle]

10. Fear the future, gun loons. nt

[tblue]

11. OC is better than CC

It's more honest, but it would totally freak me out. I don't want to be anywhere near a person who's just gotta have their gun at the ready. I'd have sent everyone home too. Good on the athletic director. And what a twisted creep to do a thing like that around children!

[Cryptoad]

23. Most the OC dudes

have a penis delusion about their weapon!

[alfredo]

63. Or inside they are scared little boys.

[Cryptoad]

68. absolutely !

[alfredo]

77. I see that with some of my Tea Party associates.

[Cryptoad]

94. It is bad enough with more than our fair share

of Assholes in the World,,, but now we let them run around with a "hog-leg" on their hip!

[NickB79]

12. I wonder how many concealed-carry guns were in the stands?

The coach stopped the game because of a visible firearm, but it's possible there were one or two more legal guns there, just concealed and out of sight.

Once again, open carry is stupid. If you want to carry a gun, get your CCW permit, a good holster, and keep it to yourself.

[pschoeb]

45. It's actually a misdemeanor in Michigan to carry a gun in a Sports arena/ field

So my guess is no one was carrying

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d

[AAO]

79. No, it's not

as long as you have a CC permit, you can carry a gun to a sporting event.

[SomethingFishy]

85. Which is really clever as sports fans are known to be the model of restraint..

I seem to recall last time a team won a championship in my town the fans celebrated by vandalism and burning cars...

[Cryptoad]

14. Hell it want be too much longer before we have

an OK Coral style shoot out on the Soccer field because some asshole didnt' like the call the the ref made against their child or their child's team!

afterward the NRA and GOP will proclaim that all the Children should have been carrying!


Yep its really too much to ask for reasonable gun control ,,, heh GOP?

[Myrina]

17. ^^ This, exactly.

Any bets on how many of the CC'ers in the stands saw the OC and were 'monitoring' him and thinking how fast they could whip theirs out should the 'need' arise?

[Decaffeinated]

26. What's different?

IOW, what has changed that makes that more likely to happen now? If nothing, then why haven't we seen a significant trend of parents blasting away referees at their child's soccer games?

[Cryptoad]

44. There is lots of phsical comfrontation with refs

but this assholes who want to strut around with there new guns on their hip are people who would never have a physical confrontation but would would become nine foot tall and bullet proof with their gun in their hand!

[Decaffeinated]

145. Hmmm.. ummm... what?

Yes, there are many verbal conflicts with referees and occasionally even some physical but I am not aware of a string of ref shootings by outraged parents. Are you?

Again, I ask... what is different now?

[Cryptoad]

147. I answered your Q in my previous post,,,,,,

[eppur_se_muova]

41. A fairly regular occurence in other countries. nt

[Ohio Joe]

15. Wise choice by the coaches

Someone so paranoid and fearful they have to carry a gun in such an inappropriate place should not be trusted.

[SunSeeker]

16. Fucking asshole gun nut.

They should have called the cops and had him arrested for disturbing the peace/trespassing/brandishing a weapon. Once you are asked to leave and you don't, it's trespassing. There is also the endangerment of minors issue with him bringing a loaded gun to this event.

Who in their right mind walks around with a gun at a kid's soccer game?

This man should NOT be permitted to own a gun.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. Really?

1. Open carry isn't brandishing. Brandishing is defined by law, not your opinion.
2. The Coach may not have the legal authority to ask him to leave, depending on who owns the field.
3. The man did, apparently, nothing illegal, so far as we know at this time.

That said, what he did seems to have been in incredibly poor taste, and gave people reason to be uncomfortable, and I deplore the event.

[SunSeeker]

49. Really. He was on private property.

You can enter private property with permission. Once that permission is rescinded, you are a trespasser. A trespasser with a gun is a disturbance of the peace, at a minimum.

Here, the school's assistant athletic director had asked the man to leave the school's field, according to the article. At that point that man became a trespasser.

Leave it to you to jump in with an attempt at a legal defense of the stupid asshole gun nut.

The coach did the right thing. There was a strong possibility this man was mentally disturbed, not just acting in "poor taste" as you put it. It was the coach's responsibility to protect the safety of those boys. Since the idiot gun nut would not leave, the coach had to end the game.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. The article does not say who owns the field.

It may be a city field, that the school does not own. If the school DOES own it, it IS possible his actions constitute trespassing, and if so, I feel he should be prosecuted for it.

Our Cross Country team, and football teams always used a city field for games. Not unprecedented at all.

I do not disagree that the coach did the right thing.

[SunSeeker]

56. Yes it does. It was a private school.

From the article:
 

Vanden Brand said an officer told him that the private school had a right to ask the man to leave, and that the scenario is unprecedented in his career.

"Talking to the officer...we had a right to ask him to leave, and if he returned without meeting our conditions, he could be charged with trespassing," he said.

[AtheistCrusader]

122. That doesn't answer the question, actually.

The officer might be under the false impression that stadium belongs to the school.

I think it is LIKELY, but not a sure thing at the moment. People often have charges dismissed for reasons like this.

[SunSeeker]

144. All the evidence and witnesses indicated it is private property.

The local police ought to know whose field this is. You have no evidence to the contrary, and yet you are inexplicably compelled to flog this point. You have descended to baselessly accusing witnesses and/or police of being wrong, even though they were there and you weren't. Truly bizarre.

We are commenting based on the facts as reported in the story. If you want to change the facts in the article, go ahead, but you are no longer commenting on THIS story.

[AtheistCrusader]

148. The story does not explicitly state the stadium belongs to the school.

Infer it all you want, but that is all it is, based on this particular effort of reporting the story.

The reportage of the officer's comments is actually hearsay. They are not quoting the officer.

[SunSeeker]

149. All news articles are hearsay since told by a reporter. nt

[LTG]

152. Having done a little more digging

It seems that the school plays soccer on a field (not a stadium) with some bleachers that is on the grounds of a charter school. The site is owned by the private high school and leased to the charter school since about 2003. They are not in close proximity to each other.

Depending upon the usage arrangement between the schools, the high school may or may not have had the legal right to ask the man to leave, that might be solely the right of the lessee.

There is also the question of whether a charter school is public or private. It has its own governing board, but is authorized by a state community college and totally funded by state and local funds dedicated to public education. I have no idea how that is legally treated in Michigan.

Not trying to indicate an opinion one way or the other on the actual topic of the OP, I just got sidetracked and interested in the details. One of the symptoms of my Bi-Polar II diagnosis.

[AtheistCrusader]

165. Interesting.

This is the only sort of rules-gaming I can imagine, as to why he wasn't actually arrested or cited for trespassing, because it sounds, but is not entirely clear, that he was still there when the cops arrived.

If they can, they will normally write a ticket for that sort of thing at the least, and it doesn't appear that happened. The information you found might point to why.

[Douglas Carpenter]

18. this is getting crazy. Now when I was a kid back in gun-tooting western PA - sure hunters might have

a gun with them when they were heading off for a hunt or coming home from one. They might even have it with them when they stopped by some local establishment - but no one - absolutely no one thought it was appropriate to bring one for no rational reason to a kids sporting event - just to prove they could.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

78. You've described my SW PA deer-hunting grandfather.

Never, and I mean NEVER, would he have carried a gun to a kids' sporting event. Or church. Or the grocery store. Or...

Gun nuts are increasingly militant, and that's a dangerous thing to be.

[TalkingDog]

20. A safety first version of shunning

I like it.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. File this under "Asshole Gun Humpers Of Note"

[BainsBane]

97. That's a huge file.

[seabeyond]

22. i guess this will have to be an answer, to these assholes. wak around school? disrupt the

learning to lock down all kids while he implemenets his right to be an asshole.

soccer game? cancel game and send every one home.

that might just solve this issue with the pure assholes, not crazies.

[DGeorge]

24. He made the right decision.

[Sunlei]

30. best to err on the side of caution. imo it won't be long before someone loads up & shoots

Even the open carry 'showoffs' are supposed to be unloaded guns. All it takes is one person with a horrible idea.

[YllwFvr]

155. unloaded open carry was only in california

And that is now illegal. Loaded anywhere else.

[Sunlei]

157. every F-ing state has different gun laws.dumbass, clusterfuck- crap from the domestic terrorist NRA

We're going to have to sit back and wait for some idiot to start shooting.? That is NOT acceptable to me.

I don't know about anyone else. I spot an open carry fool, I will warn every person nearby as I vacate & call 911 immediately.

[YllwFvr]

161. and cali is the only one that required

Unloaded open carry.
if i responded to that type of call i would initiate a mere encounter with the carrier, but there isnt much i can do if they arent extremely compliant and allow me to run id and serial number.
then i would go talk to the caller. Comm center should ask things like, are they acting suspiciously? Is it in the holster? What are they doing?

Ill respond either way. Lying about the carrier however would result in charges against the caller. Ive seen a few on here suggest that to get the carrier arrested. Open carry isnt extremely common but i have run into three or four.
Appreciate the polite conversation by the way.

[Sunlei]

163. you're welcome

Here is what happened at starbucks in Texas when police were called last month about a couple men with their guns on store property. looks like the law for open carry is 'unloaded'(edit to add not in chamber, another different rule for each state!) in Texas.

Didn't notice the men provide any concealed carry ID to the police. In Texas we have to tell police we have a concealed weapon and provide the permit immediately.

[TRoN33]

37. This is Michigan...

We're talking about Michigan, now under heavily Republican-controlled government. Mark my words, they will go North Carolina's batshit crazy routine and amend the law that will give the gun owners the rights to openly carry the firearm into sports game except for professional sport arenas.

[knitter4democracy]

98. Yup.

It's getting worse here every day.

[Buns_of_Fire]

38. Knowing how psycho some parents can get at kid's soccer games --

and kid's little league games, and kid's football games -- it was probably the right call.

Many moons ago, when I had a CCW, the card that I carried specifically stated that, although I was licensed to carry almost anywhere I wanted, it was NOT valid for certain places. IIRC, "sporting events" was one of those places where the card carried no clout whatsoever and I'd be subject to arrest on the spot. It made sense to me at the time, and it still does.

[tavernier]

40. It is disgusting that we even have to have this conversation

I suppose someday soon there will be a legal limit on how many people we are allowed to kill yearly, as long as we carry a license. The NRA is probably already working on it.

[secondvariety]

95. It's surreal.

What fucking country is this-Somalia? Back in the good ol' pre-Reagan days, there was never this sexual fascination with guns. Gotta hand it to the NRA whipping up hysteria and convincing Americans that they have to be armed at all times. Did wonders for the floundering gun industry.

[kiranon]

42. Problem would be solved if we had open carry into Congress

and the Supreme Court and all state legislatures/courts. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Instead, it's open carry to soccer fields and Starbucks and the like. Those who legislate whether in Congress or the Courts should also be subject to the laws they make/interpret. They wouldn't be so fast and easy with the Second Amendment if they found themselves with a non regulated armed citizenry in their midst. IMHO.

[Duncan Grant]

43. All I carry is a set of housekeys; sometimes OC, sometimes CC.

Not to brag but -- for more than 50 years, I have somehow managed to negotiate daily life with nothing more than a set of house keys. I don't expect you to believe this from some anonymous poster on the internet but I promise you, every word of it is true.

[SunSeeker]

51. You represent the vast majority of Americans, thankfully. nt

[toby jo]

46. How many people will be shot in America today - 80 - 100?

And won't almost every one of them face a confrontation with a weapon, many of them where the shooter simply came at them under 'open carry'?

How do you gauge the intent of these whack jobs when they walk in?

[kestrel91316]

123. I automatically assume they intend to use the gun to hurt somebody.

Unless they are clearly hunters.

[Orsino]

47. I like this.

One good answer to such a threat is to take your ball and go home, to boycott the OCer, in effect.

[Politicalboi]

48. They all should have pointed and laughed at him

And then a group of men should have taken and thrown him out on his ass and called the cops. And why isn't this assholes name in the story. The asshole should be fined, or arrested. Fuck his "right".

[jamejest]

50. A sign I saw at a Tea Party rally

read "It is time for the people with guns to make the laws!" Little dictators and their little delusions.

[dgibby]

53. I. Don't. Get. It.

I've lived in a lot of places (moved around quite a bit while in the Navy). Once I was living within a mile of the headquarters of the Hell's Angels. In addition, I'm now disabled and almost 68. Although I'm a gun owner, I've never once felt the need to either oc or cc. What is it with these people?

[Warren Stupidity]

114. They are very very fearful people.

[kestrel91316]

120. I disagree. They are bullies, and they are using their guns/penis extensions to

harass and intimidate. PERIOD.

[Warren Stupidity]

166. The OC are fearful bullies, the cc are just

fearful bullies.

[NCTraveler]

54. That makes two people I know gun crusaders. nt.

[Blue Idaho]

58. I would have pulled my kid off the field mid-game.

As we know after the DC Naval Base shootings its impossible to tell a "Good guy with a gun" from a "Crazy fucker bent on mass murder with a gun" just by looking at 'em.

[alcibiades_mystery]

66. As soon as I saw a gunner shithead walking around with a firearm I would have immediately

removed my children from the vicinity. Gunner shitheads have a bad habit of having accidents.

[Cali_Democrat]

76. Yup...and they're usually law-abiding....

until they're not.

At that point, innocent people are dead.

[HockeyMom]

59. Take your own kid off the field,

get in your car, and LEAVE. If enough of the parents there did this, there would be no game for this moron to watch. Maybe he would get the message? We are getting away from YOU, Mister. No GAME is worth your child getting shot.

What happened with smokers in public? Maybe this need to be done to gunners, too.

[llmart]

81. It's amazing how effective.....

an old-fashioned "shunning" can be. It took awhile before smokers got the message that those of us who don't smoke are going to stand up for our rights to not smell their cancer sticks. So the more we put pressure and point out how ridiculous these gun nuts are and speak our minds, the more the timid among us will feel comfortable standing up for sensible gun laws.

[aikoaiko]

60. Putting the gun in the car was a reasonable compromise.

Of course, leaving would have been better.

Not open carrying would have been better still.

[SunSeeker]

67. No it wasn't. The private school had a right to tell him to leave its property.

Once they knew the nutbag had a gun, they had to tell him to leave. Putting the gun in the car still kept that gun on school property, which is unnacceptable.

[aikoaiko]

72. Depends on state laws, but if he was trespassing they should have called the police.

In my state, for example, you can keep guns locked in cars if you have a permit.

But also, in my state, private property owners can ask a person to leave and then call the police if they don't.

[SunSeeker]

75. They did. Read the article. It was trespassing.

 From the article:

Vanden Brand said an officer told him that the private school had a right to ask the man to leave, and that the scenario is unprecedented in his career.

"Talking to the officer...we had a right to ask him to leave, and if he returned without meeting our conditions, he could be charged with trespassing," he said.

[NYC_SKP]

80. I think it was more about the holster he refused to remove.

Last edited Fri Sep 27, 2013, 05:24 PM - Edit history (1)

There's no indication that the car was on school property or out on the street, so I don't think the actual gun in the car had anything to do with it.

Not your fault, the article in the OP leaves out an important detail:

Hulings noticed later that the man returned to the field without the gun in the holster. Hulings determined nobody could assume that the man had removed the weapon from the field, and called an early end to the match.

http://highschoolsports.mlive.com/news/article/4211310751162041083/western-michigan-christian-soccer-match-ends-early-over-concerns-about-unidentified-man-allegedly-carrying-gun/

Being the asshole that he was being, told he couldn't have a gun, he came back without the gun but still had the holster, which is still an asshole move.

There's no indication that the car was on school property or out on the street, so I don't think the actual gun in the car had anything to do with it.

[SunSeeker]

93. Presumably the gun was still on school property, in light of what the cops & witness said.

The cops said the school had a right to enforce its rules (presumably a prohibition against guns, a rule at all schools I am aware of) and the man could not return until he complied with it. And yes, keeping the holster on was a threatening, provocative move, suggesting he was ready to put the gun back on his hip at any time.

It is reasonable to deduce from the facts that are provided that the car wasn't far from the field and was still on school property. VandenBrand could see him go to his car, since he described the man doing that, and also suggested the public entrance was at the other side of the field, where the cops arrived:
"I asked the man (to leave), and when he finally agreed to, he went to his car and put the gun back in the car," VandenBrand told MLive.com. "I had called 911 and had to meet the (Muskegon Police Department) officer on the other side of the field (to unlock the gate)."
http://highschoolsports.mlive.com/news/article/4211310751162041083/western-michigan-christian-soccer-match-ends-early-over-concerns-about-unidentified-man-allegedly-carrying-gun/


BTW, when your post merely says the facts are unclear, accusing others of being "Wrong. Wrong. Wrong." is a bit over the top. We're on the same side here. Let's treat each other that way.

[NYC_SKP]

103. Ah, yes, a gate.

Still under the effects of some dental work pain.



And I edited my subject line above.

[aquart]

140. Yeah, because no one steals cars.

Talk about a bonus.

[leftyohiolib]

62. zero tolerance

[Spitfire of ATJ]

71. It's NOT a war zone out there, nor is it a lawless frontier. It's a neigborhood....

These idiots actually believe their neighbors should THANK them for keeping them safe.

[hamsterjill]

92. What possible excuse would someone have for needing a gun at a child's athletic event?

It was probably just some numb nut wanting to show off the fact that he COULD carry. Those are the worst types. The ones out to "prove" something. Hulings was absolutely correct to err on the side of caution.

I would not have been comfortable at that event knowing someone like the man described had a weapon. His rights end where my rights begin. And I have a right to feel reasonably safe. I'm with Starbucks!

[NYC_SKP]

102. Likely just wanted to show off. I've never been to that town.

But there are communities where you might see a civilian with a sidearm.

Most, however, who have a legitimate reason to have one with them would leave it in their trunk before going to the game.

This asshole went back to drop off the gun but came back to the game with the holster still on, so was asked to leave.

[YllwFvr]

156. you definately can feel unsafe

And i understand that. Might come across as an asshole but no, you have no right to feel safe.

[hamsterjill]

168. I have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

One might argue that one must feel safe in order to pursue happiness. I see your point, and understand. I'm just saying we need to continue to argue in any way possible in order to keep guns out of most places.

Peace.

[Vashta Nerada]

100. I'm glad for the athletic director.

[NYC_SKP]

112. Had this been a public school, they would not have been able to ask him to leave.

It's only that this is a private school that the athletic directors were within their rights to tell him to leave.

I just learned this detail.

They need to change the law.

[madrchsod]

158. not where i live

a soccer referee can remove anyone from the field and surrounding area if they are "disruptive" and refuse to leave.. they can call the police if need be and sign a complaint or they give the game to the offenders opponent.i've seen this done several times during my years of public league youth soccer coaching.

[NYC_SKP]

159. Most states are like yours. This state needs to change it's laws:

There is no law restricting the carrying of weapons onto school property by those who have concealed pistol licenses. However, the weapon has to be visible and not, in fact, "concealed." Because WMC is a private school, VandenBrand was within his rights to tell the man to get rid of his gun or leave. If the game was played at a public school field, however, there would be no such right.

Legislation introduced in January by Rep. Andy Schurz, D-Lansing, would close the loophole that allows those with a concealed pistol license to take a gun into schools.

VandenBrand said a friend of the gun-toting man videotaped as an officer with the Muskegon Police Department warned him about not violating trespassing laws. VandenBrand said the officer told him it's not unusual for those concerned about protecting gun owners rights to post such videos on the Internet.

http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index.ssf/2013/09/opposing_fan_hesitant_to_get_r.html

[notadmblnd]

110. If there's zero tolerence for students, when even drawing a picture of a gun can get them tossed out

then the same standards should be applied to adults at a public school.

[47of74]

143. Goddamn right.

[angrychair]

113. NO.WAY.

I am the father of a teen soccer ref and I would have pulled my son in a heartbeat...a gun at an event like that is a clear and present danger to any ref.

[marble falls]

116. If there is zero tolerance for kids, there is zero tolerance for mom and dad, too.

[CoffeeCat]

126. This is evidence that Obama will be banning all guns!! And bullets!!!

Talk radio is fueling the actions of these ultra-buffoons. Beck, Limbaugh and Hannity have these
nimrods so whipped up into a frenzy that they're carrying guns, openly, at youth soccer games.

What frickin morons.

What is your point?

What do you hope to accomplish?

Do you understand how your actions affect the hundreds of people around you?

Moronic assholes, drunk on right-wing bullshit radio. Think, assholes. THINK!

[alarimer]

138. Paranoid freaks who carry guns everywhere are to be avoided.

Although at least when they carry openly you can see that and avoid them. It's the concealed carry folks that scare me, because you don't know who they are.

I hate guns and I hate gun enthusiasts.

[heaven05]

141. wild west mentality returning with a vengence.

does not bode well for society and decent unafraid adults either. Sad, sad, sad.

[RebelOne]

142. I live in North Georgia and we have

an open carry law with a permit. But I have yet to see anyone with a holster gun or an assault gun slung over anyone's shoulder. The only time I saw anyone with a holstered gun was on the man who owns the gun shop down the street.

[NYC_SKP]

160. Not Surprised to See this Cheap Publicitiy Stunt. It Seems to Happen Almost Daily, Robb.

New article, additional details:

There is no law restricting the carrying of weapons onto school property by those who have concealed pistol licenses. However, the weapon has to be visible and not, in fact, "concealed." Because WMC is a private school, VandenBrand was within his rights to tell the man to get rid of his gun or leave. If the game was played at a public school field, however, there would be no such right.

Legislation introduced in January by Rep. Andy Schurz, D-Lansing, would close the loophole that allows those with a concealed pistol license to take a gun into schools.

VandenBrand said a friend of the gun-toting man videotaped as an officer with the Muskegon Police Department warned him about not violating trespassing laws. VandenBrand said the officer told him it's not unusual for those concerned about protecting gun owners rights to post such videos on the Internet.

http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index.ssf/2013/09/opposing_fan_hesitant_to_get_r.html

It's one thing to go to a game with a gun. When you go to a game with a gun AND a friend with a video camera to record what happens, it's a stunt!

Asshole!