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Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:45 PM

Why I choose to be a counterproductive left wingnut.

I don't change my position on the issues because of who occupies the Oval Office.

I opposed targeted assassinations of U.S. citizens under President Bush, so I also oppose them under President Obama.

I opposed invasive NSA spying and blanket warrants under President Bush, so I also oppose them under President Obama.

I opposed proposed cuts to Social Security and Medicare under President Bush, so I also oppose them under President Obama.

I opposed free trade deals (that strengthen the hands of global corporations and weaken the bargaining position of workers) under President Bush, so I also oppose them under President Obama.

I opposed austerity economics under President Bush (although he never actually tried it), so I also oppose it under President Obama.

By now, surely you get the picture.

I want to be counterproductive because I want to stop things. I want to be the spanner in the works; the fly in the ointment.

I think counterproductive left wingnuts stopped a potential Larry Summers fed chairmanship in its tracks. And that is a good thing.

I also think counterproductive left winguts helped to stop, or at least delay, a reckless and potentially illegal attack on Syrian government forces that would have proved detrimental to long-term U.S. interests in the region. (Some say that Obama brilliantly planned things to go the way they did all along. If so, then he sure is a lot smarter than his staunch supporters who were shilling for the missile attacks 24/7 when they thought that was his plan.)

It's not that I am inflexible and unwilling to compromise. I recognize that some things simply aren't possible right now.

But the Republicans are crazy. I'm not being hyperbolic here, either. The policies they support are insane and would destroy the lives of many Americans if they were ever allowed to go into effect. There is no compromising with that. The more we give them, the more they demand, and centrists who try to tell us otherwise must be living on some other planet.

President Obama has lots of admirable qualities, and I agree with him on a number of issues. He's pro-choice, a staunch supporter of gay rights and civil rights in general, he has been willing to raise taxes somewhat on the wealthy, and his health insurance plan will be an improvement over what existed before.

But I grow more and more convinced that the Democratic Party is in the process of selling its soul.

And I don't blame President Obama. He's just one of many.

As the Republicans fall farther and farther off the deep end, more and more Democrats are realizing that wealthy donors can be brought over to our side if only we "moderate" our positions on economic matters somewhat.

But I don't want my party to turn into nothing more than the pro-choice, gay-friendly, version of the republicans.

I have always shown up at the polls to vote for Democrats, from Dukakis in 1988 to Obama in 2012. But I'm not an automatic vote. Not anymore.

Somehow, between the late 19th and early-to-mid 20th centuries, the Republican Party transformed from the Party of Lincoln, to the Party of Reagan. I bet it did not happen overnight, and I bet there were many in the party who cried foul along the way.

I wonder if they ever got called counterproductive left wingnuts?




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Reply Why I choose to be a counterproductive left wingnut. (Original post)
dawg Sep 2013 OP
Cooley Hurd Sep 2013 #1
truedelphi Sep 2013 #2
DLevine Sep 2013 #3
liberal_at_heart Sep 2013 #4
grattsl Sep 2013 #5
DirkGently Sep 2013 #6
Warpy Sep 2013 #7
Fuddnik Sep 2013 #8
dawg Sep 2013 #10
sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #62
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #100
Fuddnik Sep 2013 #126
MuseRider Sep 2013 #152
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #157
MuseRider Sep 2013 #183
GoneFishin Sep 2013 #9
haikugal Sep 2013 #11
Dustlawyer Sep 2013 #72
baldguy Sep 2013 #12
dawg Sep 2013 #13
Maedhros Sep 2013 #14
Hissyspit Sep 2013 #29
Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #103
Doctor_J Sep 2013 #41
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #102
Liberal_Dog Sep 2013 #130
baldguy Sep 2013 #135
Liberal_Dog Sep 2013 #145
Egalitarian Thug Sep 2013 #148
baldguy Sep 2013 #149
sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #224
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LondonReign2 Sep 2013 #176
MisterP Sep 2013 #15
dawg Sep 2013 #18
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #104
DFW Sep 2013 #116
MisterP Sep 2013 #226
scarletwoman Sep 2013 #16
cyberswede Sep 2013 #57
pscot Sep 2013 #131
libdude Sep 2013 #17
BadgerKid Sep 2013 #19
mick063 Sep 2013 #20
zeemike Sep 2013 #21
gopiscrap Sep 2013 #22
amb123 Sep 2013 #23
Cryptoad Sep 2013 #24
dawg Sep 2013 #25
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dawg Sep 2013 #28
Cryptoad Sep 2013 #31
dawg Sep 2013 #32
Enthusiast Sep 2013 #98
Cryptoad Sep 2013 #115
disidoro01 Sep 2013 #122
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Cryptoad Sep 2013 #140
sabrina 1 Sep 2013 #151
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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:47 PM

1. Recommended!

 

Well played!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:49 PM

2. Thank you dawg.

Good read.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:51 PM

3. K&R. nt

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:51 PM

4. proud counterproductive left wingnut here. I will never stop fighting.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:52 PM

5. Stop it. Too much common sense for one post.

 

I agree. It doesn't take much to point out faults on the other side, but demanding the best from your own party is truly honorable. I admire the counterproductive left wingnuts most of all.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:52 PM

6. That is a crappy way to be counterproductive or a wingnut.


Good way to be a principled progressive though.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:58 PM

7. Bravo!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:00 PM

8. I don't choose to be a counterproductive wingnut.

It's in my blood. And has been for a long, long time.

I stand for the right things. Not the expedient things.

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:05 PM

10. Yeah, I think "choose" may have been a poor choice of words for me, too.

Life would be so much easier for me if I would just go along to get along. But I just can't freakin' seem to do it.

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:35 PM

62. Yes, it is in your blood isn't it? To not change your principles when

your team changes theirs. To continue to stand up for what you believed in when your team was pretending they did too.

I'm so proud not to be one of those 'reality based' types who change their minds when told to because they don't have any real core values, it's all about 'winning' to them, whatever that is.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #62)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:28 AM

100. I was born in 52.

All the idealistic patriotic propaganda I grew up with must have gotten to me. I was indoctrinated in the 'justice for all'. Problematic. Now I believe we should have it, all of us. And I hate the enemies of justice for all.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #100)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:54 AM

126. Same year as me.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #100)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:33 PM

152. I am 1953

there is no way I could be any different. I can't convince myself and nobody else can convince me to be another way. It is as much a part of me as my physical being.

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Response to MuseRider (Reply #152)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:43 PM

157. Every little TV program we watched as children

had a moral message. The good guys wore white hats, the bad guys wore black hats. Only the bad guys would torture and steal. The bad guys were like the WWII German Nazis and the Imperial Japanese - the clear bad guys, the ones that tortured. Now, we see that distinction has blurred, more than a little.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #157)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:39 PM

183. "more than a little"

Yes. There were still many bad things in those messages such as the homogenizing of the society into good little straight, white families for the most part. Aside from that right and wrong were very strong messages in them and I can't and won't even try to shake those.

I don't recognize what is called the Democratic Party anymore.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:03 PM

9. Good post. Thanks. nt

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:05 PM

11. Well said!!

You expressed my thinking exactly and much better than I could have. Thanks!

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Response to haikugal (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:56 PM

72. DITTO!!!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:06 PM

12. I thought it was because you liked having Republicans win elections.

 

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Response to baldguy (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:08 PM

13. I'm glad the Republicans won elections in the 1800's.

I oppose conservatives and I hope they lose their elections. Don't much care what party label they happen to be using at the time.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:09 PM

14. Well, like with so many other things, you thought wrong. [n/t]

 

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Response to baldguy (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:04 PM

29. “Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people..."

“will vote for the real Republican all the time.”

- Harry Truman

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #29)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:34 AM

103. Interesting. My regard for Harry just grew exponentially.

Thank you for that.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:45 PM

41. Yeah, because acting like Republicans has been so successful

 

the reason Obama got elected soundly in 2008 was because he campaigned as a Dem. The reason the party got trounced in 2010 was because he and Reid and Pelosi caved in to the Repukes.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #41)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:31 AM

102. Exactly......nt

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Response to baldguy (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:41 AM

130. LOL!!

Although it probably won't do any good, I will still tell you that pre-DLC, the Republicans had not had a majority in the House for decades.

After the DLC, that quickly changed.

So, who really likes to see Republicans winning elections?

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Response to Liberal_Dog (Reply #130)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:17 AM

135. Meanwhile, in the real world 1980 doesn't exist anymore.

 

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Response to baldguy (Reply #135)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:35 AM

145. Don't Like The Actual History, Huh?

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Response to Liberal_Dog (Reply #145)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:50 AM

148. Of course not. Actual history shows that their ideology has a failure rate of 100%.

 

It extends far beyond American politics as well. Throughout recorded history it is liberals that have made every step forward and each of those steps has been taken while dragging the terrified conservatives, kicking and screaming, into the better future.

So no, they really don't like history.

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Response to Liberal_Dog (Reply #145)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:55 AM

149. You mean the actual history of Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole, George Bush Sr, Newt Gingrich...

 

Howard Baker, Trent Lott, George Bush Jr, Bill Frist, Denny Hastert and John Boehner? That history?

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Response to baldguy (Reply #135)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:03 PM

224. Who wants 1980 to exist anymore? That was the beginning of

the downslide of this country. We are trying to undo the harm done over the past 30 years of Reaganism, and the infiltration of the Dem Party by Reagan Dems and Repubs. As the other commenter said, ever since the DLC managed to gain control of the Dem Party we have lost. It's way past time to turn this around.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:13 PM

165. Not only do members of the Counterproductive Left Wingnut contingency

NOT like 'having Republicans win', they don't like having Republicans appointed to Democratic Administrations when there are plenty of good Democrats who would be far more effective in those positions of power, which is what 'winning' is about.

When you 'win' it is YOUR party that gets those positions of power, unless of course you DON'T belong to the CLWN contingency where you approve of putting Republicans back into positions of power AFTER THEY LOSE.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:10 PM

176. "I thought..."

No, no you didn't actually

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:09 PM

15. since we're to the left of Francisco Franco, we must oppose anyone who isn't

nor do we think of neoliberalism as some Earthly Paradise we must bow before
nor do we believe that it's a good method of argument to praise Dear Leader for making the GOP vanish in a puff of smoke simply by shifting in His seat one minute, and then acting righter-than-thou the next

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Response to MisterP (Reply #15)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:20 PM

18. It's cool that you mention Franco. Everyone always ends up comparing the right-wingers ...

to Hitler. But I think Franco is much more what they are after.

Many of them have even openly spoken in praise of Franco (and to a lesser extent, Pinochet).

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Response to dawg (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:34 AM

104. Yes, they will appear to be "moderate" far right wing Fascists.

They will do this for a while like they did in Germany and Italy and then:

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater

— Frank Zappa

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Response to dawg (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:55 AM

116. I lived in Spain under Franco

What today's Republicans want is the Franco that took over in 1939. Even Franco evolved, forced to do so by events beyond his control. When it became clear that his benefactors (Hitler and Mussolini) were going to lose the war, Spain left the Axis and became "neutral."

By the time I got there, Spain had become a laissez-faire sort of Fascism, where the ideology had weakened to the point where you could do whatever you wanted as long as you didn't rock the boat severely. Toward the end of his life, Franco told his successor, Juan Carlos, "you will be able to do things I never could." Franco may have never believed he was on the wrong side of history, but he realized that it would pass him by.

Today's Republicans, on the other hand, are where Franco was in 1941, still beholden to their financial benefactors, and rigidly unbending in their ideology, convinced that God is on their side and will help them crush any opposition, the opposition being made up of godless commies anyway.

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Response to dawg (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:45 PM

226. this is why Latin American history is so important: it shows what They want when They're

unrestrained, but also offers a glimmer of how to move against Them

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:18 PM

16. Thank you. "I want to be the spanner in the works..."

There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part! You can't even passively take part! And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels…upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all! Mario Savio


I've been a leftist for close to 50 years now. No amount of carping, whining, lecturing, hectoring or snotty disdain dished out by the self-appointed defenders of the Establishment on the internet is going to change that.

sw

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #16)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:09 PM

57. + 1

Great response!

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #16)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:00 AM

131. Amen

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:20 PM

17. Absolutely

right on. To me, we don't have enough like you.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:22 PM

19. There's too much rhetoric lately; I've tuned out.

I don't start wars on purpose in my personal life, and I believe one shouldn't want to start wars just because. Show me the evidence first, not charge in calling for war. How sad for us that some government (small r)epresentatives are willing to crap over the country just to prove some ideological point or line their own pockets.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:24 PM

20. Huge Rec

 

Thanks for doing the work that many of us planned on doing here.

You summed it up nicely.

Third Wayers can go back to the Republican Party where they came from. It isn't our fault that it got too crazy for them over there.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:25 PM

21. Yep, I am counterproductive

If productive is moving the Dems to the right...sign me up for the counterproductive brigade.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:39 PM

22. Count me in, I stand with you!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:52 PM

23. It's Right vs Wrong, not Right vs Left.

And what you said is true.

IMO, What the moderates/compromisers in the Democratic Party fail to understand is that the Republican, right-wing, tea party "people" (if they can be called that) do not want to compromise, debate or even talk to us about anything.

They believe that the only Good Democrat is a DEAD Democrat.
They believe that the only Good Liberal is a DEAD Liberal.
They believe that the only Good Feminist is a DEAD Feminist.
They believe that the only Good Homosexual is a DEAD Homosexual.
They believe that the only Good Atheist is a DEAD Atheist.
They believe that the only Good Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or Pagan is a DEAD Jew, Muslim, Buddhist or Pagan.
They believe that the only Good Person on Welfare is a DEAD Person on Welfare.

And they believe that, "We don't compromise with our Enemies, WE ANNIHILATE THEM!"

I'm not exaggerating either. Compromise with the right wing is useless because they want to destroy us.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:55 PM

24. Enjoy your serfdom! nt

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #24)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:56 PM

25. If you only knew ....

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Response to dawg (Reply #25)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 06:59 PM

26. Maybe i do,,,,

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:01 PM

28. Agent Mike!

Peace out!

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Response to dawg (Reply #28)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:07 PM

31. Huh?

geez

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:09 PM

32. You no like serf dude?

I thought he looked cool.

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #31)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:10 AM

98. Can't recognize cool?

I thought not.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #98)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:53 AM

115. I can reconize

that some people when they are unable to make logical retorts,,,,,, babble!

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #115)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:24 AM

122. What is your

Philosophy Cryptoad? You seem to spend all of your posts attacking people yet you rarely make any statements on your positions. Beyond the whole "If Obama kills kids with drones it's ok by me." type posts I mean.

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Response to disidoro01 (Reply #122)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:07 AM

132. Critical Reading is Critical! nt

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #132)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:35 AM

138. You do not agree with that

You lack the ability to think critically when it comes to the presidents policies. All you throw out are weak non answers. Answer this question: Do you believe the presidents policy that any adult male, over 16 is a potential terrorist and is a legitimate target for killing and as an add on, are all gatherings including funerals and weddings are legitimate drone targets?

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Response to disidoro01 (Reply #138)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:44 AM

140. What I do beleive is that you can provide a cite for that policy that you claim.

people making shit up as they type and then demand somebody to take a stand on the fabrication....

LMAO

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #140)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:24 PM

151. Do you agree with continuing Bush's foreign policies?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #151)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:45 PM

159. All of them,,,, no

do you feel the need to change the subject on this thread?

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #159)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:48 PM

161. How is asking about the reasons for opposition to certain policies this

administration has continued, 'changing the subject of this thread'?

Which Bush foreign policies DO you support then?

This proud member of the Counterproductive Left Wingnut contingency opposed and still does, ALL of them.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #161)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 04:28 PM

202. Pride is a very dangerous thing!

None of Bush policies that I can think of off hand but then again I havent really seen all of them.

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Response to Cryptoad (Reply #202)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:45 PM

215. How do you feel about all the Republicans in President Obama's

Administration? I see your sigline cancelling out Republicans, and we certainly agree on that. We got rid of them. But then this President appointed several of them back into powerful positions. I don't know about you, but that was not the intention of all those Democrats who voted Republicans OUT.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #215)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:54 PM

216. I dont like it

but I know it is part of how the game is played. I cant remember a white house that didn't have some token appointments of the other party. ...

If we want less Republicans appointed we need to elected more Democrats, Local, State, and National Elections.

For the Type of changes we need to take place. we need control of Congress and the SCOTUS.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:01 PM

27. proud to rec this

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:05 PM

30. Kick And Recommend

eom

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:20 PM

33. Is someone criticizing Counterproductive Left Wingnuts?

I'm one of them too and extremely proud to be.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #33)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:15 PM

47. Yes. There was a derogatory post about the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party

on the DU front page. It's gone, now.

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Response to MsPithy (Reply #47)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:23 PM

51. Thanks, I just saw it here on GD. No surprise there frankly.

I actually love those attacks on the Left. They reveal way, way more than they intend. We learn who the anti-Leftists are on DU every time. Suspicions confirmed!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #51)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:47 AM

108. There are no right wing comedians.

Well, if there are, they are not funny.

Now listen to this!

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #108)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:07 PM

163. Lol, true. Not even those posing as 'democrats'.

Thanks for the link ....

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #33)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:35 AM

123. I Had to remove the ConservativeDemocrat from the ignore list to even see it

Now I wish I hadn't dirtied my beatiful mind on it.

I called the OP what he was.. a hippie punching F@#kwit.

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Response to bobduca (Reply #123)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:42 PM

156. Well, I've had exchanges, if you could call them that with the 'conservatiive'

actually with many 'conservatives' over the years. They rarely make much sense so I view their 'contributions' as a way to know who is who now they have invaded Democratic forums.

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Response to bobduca (Reply #123)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:47 PM

160. He's not gettting out of my ignore dungeon. n/t

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #160)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:24 PM

166. Lol, probably a good idea!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:20 PM

34. Best comeback post on DU like in forever!

Congrats, and many thanks. Save some room under the bus for me, dawg.

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Response to dgibby (Reply #34)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:39 AM

106. Me too.

Room under the bus, I mean.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:22 PM

35. K&R - Good post! nt

 

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:28 PM

36. Amen Brother!

I stand with you.

-p

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:29 PM

37. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! - K & R !!!

 




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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:32 PM

38. splendid!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:35 PM

39. Hell yeah. n/t

 

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:39 PM

40. Great post, dawg, thanks.

 

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:53 PM

42. I wouldn't call any of this being "counterproductive" or being a "wingnut"

Please note, I do disagree with some of your positions, dawg. But not in a single word here do I see the kinds of behaviors I outlined in my post that clearly inspired your response.

There is a difference between mere disagreement and hatred.


- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

/ p.s. Recced.

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:04 PM

45. Thank you.

The ability to disagree, without being disagreeable, is an extremely underrated and underutilized ability in today's society.

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:13 PM

59. This sort of owned your post! n-t

 

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:15 PM

61. If you don't mind, how, exactly, are you conservative,

and would that conservatism be the modern version or the classical version?

Thanks in advance.

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Response to xfundy (Reply #61)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:05 PM

188. These are my general views...

First, I'm a classic conservative. Without rules, society quickly descends into anarchy, as borderline psychopaths will always take advantage of the situation.

Here are my more conservative positions:

I am, in general, in favor of the NSA. I see it much like the IRS, another government agency that holds all sorts of secrets about citizens in order to do its function, and haven't seen a single example of anyone actually being harmed by its activities. (And no, I don't see vague generalities about 'privacy' of data that has been voluntarily shared with third parties as counting.) I am also appalled by all the misinformation parading as fact in the blogosphere. I will say that I do worry about wasting money on these programs when we have other severe budget concerns, however George Washington spent about 15% of his federal government budget on intelligence; that percentage is now down under 6%.

Deaths from warfare is now at an all time low. Part of the reason, I believe, is the U.S. being able to add an element of personal danger to dictators' decision making process. And except for GWB, the U.S. has acted remarkably well from G.H.W.B, to Clinton, to Obama, as the steel under the U.N. and Nato's velvet glove. A negotiator gets a lot more traction when they can say "Be reasonable with me, or get ready for the Americans."

The term "assassination" is used to refer to killing a civilian political leader. Dropping a missile on some guy making bombs to blow up a mosque in Muslim sectarian violence is not only not assassination, not only legal, but laudable. With no evidence, people say drones cause blowback. My belief is the opposite: drones are the blowback. Stop shooting schoolgirls for promoting education, and the U.S. no interest in trying to kill you. (Note: I make no bones about the partisan nature of my belief in this - I trust Obama not to think brown people's lives are less important, and for him to only use drones as a last resort, but I do not have that trust in Republicans since their past behavior has shown otherwise.)

Guns are tools. Many ranchers use them on a daily basis to protect their livestock, shooting coyotes that worry sheep to death and ground burrowing animals (of various species) that break animal's legs. The number of gun murders per 100,000 is the lowest it's been since at least 1981 (which is as far back as the CDC's database goes), and could be possibly the lowest ever. I'm not even including Alaska, in which many people go hunting for a significant percentage of their calories. Still, all this said, including the 2nd Amendment, I am in favor of states imposing mandatory gun safety classes for people who choose to exercise their right. I believe it would dramatically drop the murder/assault rate even further. And it is doable. A majority of gun owners agree with this position.

I am in favor of Government/NGO partnerships, including churches, so long as that doesn't descend purely into proselytizing or overt bigotry. I do not believe in attacking communities of faith for their doctrinal beliefs, but instead encouraging people within those communities to work together as much as we can. That said, let me also say as a small-government Democratic conservative, that if you oppose gay marriage - don't have one.

I'm in favor of trade agreements, but I also think that a better job needs to be done not only to protect the environment, but also to ensure that the benefits of efficiencies such agreements produce don't end up disproportionally in the hands of stockholders. Previous negotiations have, in the past, been done along the lines of U.S. benefits vs other nation's benefits. I'd prefer it to be more along the lines of 'Workers in both countries' benefits vs 'Ownership in both countries' benefits. But I categorically reject the idea that the party should embrace protectionism. In many measures, American workers are the most productive in the world. They just should get pay proportional to that productivity.


If anyone reading this disagrees with me, that's fine. I won't go "conservative wingnut" on you, calling you a "Communist", "Marxist", "destroyer of the American way", "wants U.S. soldiers to die", etc, etc. You have legitimate concerns which, if we are to discuss this to some sort of conclusion rather than simply screaming, that I need to account for.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #188)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:24 PM

206. What are your beliefs regarding same sex marriage and a woman's right

to choose what to do with her own body?

Just asking, because I'm an LGBT woman, and the majority of conservatives don't think I'm equal to them, and don't deserve the same basic human rights that they enjoy.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #206)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 07:11 PM

218. "If you don't like gay marriage - don't have one"

Oh, and in Oregon, even conservative Eastern Oregon, the mood has shifted significantly in the Libertarian direction. I've got several moderate Republican friends who voted for Measure 36 (Oregon's one-man/one-woman amendment) on board. It's going to be tough, and we'll lose the East of course, but with Portland coming in, my prediction that the new Same Sex Marriage Initiative will pass.

Now, that said, I also believe that if someone wants to feel morally superior to you, just as I say with gay-marriage, these people doing things you don't like are not actually harming you. So just ignore it. No skin off your nose.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #42)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:10 AM

84. Funny you mention the difference between mere disagreement and hatred,

considering the divisive and if not hate-filled, hate-mongering OP you posted. No sense trying to sound all reasonable now, we've seen what you wrote and it was not pretty.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #84)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:46 PM

170. Yep -- the use of "wingnut" was an early tipoff, eh?

 

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Response to cui bono (Reply #84)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:26 PM

195. Pointing out counterproductive behaviors isn't "hate".

And my post here is just as reasonable. Again, if you are angry about someone saying "making things up in your argumentation is bad", then maybe you are trying to tell yourself something.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #195)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:41 PM

207. But pointing out counterproductive behaviors is not at all what you did.

You are operating under the false notion that what you said in that OP was correct, true and factual, and that you were operating in good faith. None of which are the case. All you did was make up a bunch of nonsense, which you then attempt to pass off as constructive criticism, when in reality all you are doing is being immature and attempting to be divisive.

It's not hard to see through you. Speaking of counterproductive. Whether you care about the Dem party or you are, in fact, from that other "state's" message board/blog, you are not accomplishing anything positive for either agenda.



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Response to cui bono (Reply #207)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:34 PM

212. Not only is it all I did, I made no factual assertions at all...

..about what positions are acceptable or not.

Go back and re-read my OP. There is no place where I say "X is true, and if you don't believe that, you are a counterproductive left wingnut". Such a statement would be rather hypocritical, since one of the behaviors I specifically point out is that kind of Ad Hominum argumentation. It's used constantly by some haters on this board. Hell, it's being used in this very thread!

Let me also speak to your notion that I am not "accomplishing anything positive for either agenda". First, as I stated elsewhere, I'm not on RedState; that's a Republican board, and Republicans are (if you haven't noticed) going insane. Second, I actually don't think the D.U. has an agenda, other than being a discussion board, but to the limited extent that I've been able, I believe that I am strengthening the Democratic party by pointing out behaviors that weaken it.

Given the constant bashing of Democrats from the hard left, if I were conspiracy minded, I could start accusing people of being revleft or socialist forum trolls, just as you have of me coming from redstate. At first glance, this is far more plausible, as I specifically attacking offensive behaviors, while the anti-Democratic haters scream epithets at entire swathes of Democratic party thought, not to mention the majority of our elected officials. Yet in the end it's equally silly, as we're all just idling our time away over a keyboard, not being paid to shill.

Let me repeat. My original top 20 signs made no factual assertions about acceptable positions to take. Indeed, it made no factual assertions at all except for the uncontroversial statement (which I can back up with references to recent polls if you really feel the need to be pedantic) that President Obama's approval rating among Democrats is 85%. So if you feel see yourself in the behaviors I outline, maybe your conscience is trying to tell you something.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #212)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:07 PM

228. No need to be coy, I'm not falling for your disingenuous "explanation".

You really think everyone on here is that stupid? Or rather, the left on here? I do agree that you made no factual assertions. You said that yourself and yet you claim what you say is true and that you are "reality based". Sure.

You can go read my reply to you regarding just #19, leaving alone all the others, it's just flat out wrong and actually makes no sense whatsoever.



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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #212)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:56 PM

229. ...

1. You blame Democrats for what Republicans do
Whenever the GOP does something, that becomes the Democrat's fault.


No, I blame the Democrats for being, weak, vacillating and pusillanimous.

2. You imagine that President Obama is a dictator and he's deliberately making sure that Congress doesn't help people
You argue that all Obama needs to do is "fight harder" and "show some backbone" against the thinly-disguised GOP racists, and then they'd all just fall in line.


It's pretty obvious from reading history that there's a great deal of kabuki done in Washington, everyone knows where the negotiations are going to end up but the forms must be rigidly adhered to. Is this true all the time? Of course not but it's true more often than the BOG is remotely willing to admit.

3. You're not a regular campaign volunteer. In fact, you think writing screeds on DU is activism
You don't even know what cutting-turf is. You've never actually tried to convince an uncommitted voter, rather than attack people outside your little echo chamber.


I read posts nearly every day on DU of talks, arguments debates that DUers have with people in meatspace, why say this when you have no idea what people do?

4. Most of your DU screeds are not anti-Republican, they're anti-Democratic
You constantly crow that you're just "holding feet to the fire" except the vast majority of your screeds only bash Democrats. And often take on Republican coloring, like a reflexive belief in government and Democratic administration being evil.


So people agitating for single payer think government is evil? Government is a tool humans use, probably the most powerful one we have yet invented. It's been my experience that the more powerful the tool the more judiciously and cautiously it should be employed, it's one thing to hit your thumb with a framing hammer and entirely another to drive a nail into your kneecap with a nail gun. Some things governments habitually seem to want to do like surveillance need to be controlled very carefully because history shows us those sorts of things can get out of hand with horrible consequences.

5. You refuse to credit the President for anything you actually like, instead focusing purely on your hatred of him
If the President gets a very good deal, 99% of what you want, you'll rant about the 1% he had to give up. "Compromise" to you means everyone agreeing with what you want 100%.


Who here "hates" Obama? Sure there's a few that go over the top but even the more vocal critics seem to personally like Obama, he's quite the likeable person.

6. No one can remember the last time you actually praised anyone or anything, except someone else's hate-filled anti-Democratic screed
You seem to never have anything positive to say, leading most to believe that you're a very angry, bitter, person, with little emotional maturity. And other hate-filled screeds are all you manage to praise.


Bitter, hate filled screeds like this one?


7. You refuse to acknowledge that people on the other side of a debate have any legitimate concerns at all - like trying to keep a dictatorial regime from gassing its own people
Your fellow Democrats must be obsessed with bloodlust and love war, or at least that's what you believe.


A lot of us think with reasonable justification that any interference at this juncture in MENA by the USA is going to automatically be counterproductive, unlike Americans the inhabitants of that region have very long memories and few reasons to love America.

8. You never provide a argument about what should be done instead that would address the other side's concerns
An actual argument that would potentially be agreeable to both sides might actually change minds, but that would deprive you of your ability to feel sanctimonious. In fact, "Third Way" is an anathema to you.


That goes on here in GD constantly. For many of us "Third Way" means halfway between Republican and Democrat and we already feel the Democrats are too far to the right, of course it's anathema. You're taking what amounts to a technical term used to describe a set of policies and applying it where that definition doesn't fit. You know this.

9. You counter any moral argument with a diatribe about some past bad action taken by the U.S. - nearly always done during Republican leadership 10 to 50 years ago
All reprehensible actions taken by anyone outside the U.S. can be justified in a kindergarten "we did it once too" by bringing up some ancient cold-war wrong, nearly always done during a Republican administration.


What you mean is we remember from our personal experiences the US doing exactly or very nearly what it now condemns, it's really hard to avoid feeling your government is hypocritical when you remember them doing it too.

10. Instead of congratulating Democratic leaders on making what you feel to be the right choice, you imagine you have "defeated" the people who were actually mature enough to change their minds
You live in a black and white world of a zero-sum game, where someone else's winning means your losing and vice-versa. Therefore anything you like that happened is due to a "defeat" of the Democratic President.


The single group most obsessed with "winning" for the sake of winning on DU by far is the BOG.

11. You see no difference between Democrats and Republicans
Boy, there is not a single whit of difference, because you haven't gotten your maximalist position on everything.


Wrong, Democrats and Republicans differ a lot on social policy, markedly less so on economic and military policy.

12. Your arguments reference no facts, but are instead filled with unsubstantiated assertions. Your counter-arguments are ROTL icons
Did you know that President Obama is secretly twisting arms to destroy Social Security? Well, just because it isn't true doesn't keep you from stating it as fact. Any vague rumor is automatically true if it shows Democrats in a bad light. Your counterarguments typically run like this: "You're Quoting the New York Times?!? " You aren't actually laughing.


The ROFL smiley is practically Sid Dithers damn trademark.

13. You dismiss facts that don't fit your worldview, and personally attack people who provide them
ProSense drives you crazy, what with all her facts and figures and research that disprove your assertions. You attack people specifically when their references refuting your made-up B.S. are long and well documented.

14. You Godwin political discussions, liberally attacking other Democrats with words like "Authoritarian", "Police State", "Hitler", "Fascist", "Corporatist"the new dog-whistle for fascist)
You call people who explain mainstream Democratic thought Obama "apologists", ignoring that there is absolutely nothing to "apologize" for. Paradoxically, taking actions to actually stop a dictator from gassing little children to death is something you are against. You never acknowledge that Hitler wasn't stopped with a sternly-worded letter either.


You talk about others Godwining discussions and then play the Godwin card yourself during the same point. Own goal, big time.

15 You imagine that the DU is representative of mainstream Democratic thought, instead of being a place for the very liberal left to gather
And further, you actually argue that your positions are correct simply because the majority of the D.U. hold it. Here is a small point of fact: President Obama's approval rating among Democrats is 85%.


You defeat one argumentum ad populum with another arugmentum ad populum. Own goal again.



16. You have "left" the Democratic party and/or are sole-arbiter on who is actually a "Democrat" and who isn't
Anyone who actually likes President Obama clearly can't be a real Democrat in your mind. You have also written a "Goodbye cold cruel DU - because people don't support me right or wrong - I will never vote Democratic again". For bonus points, you've done both.


No I haven't.

17. You continue to make excuses for Nader
And others who strengthen the GOP by dividing the Democratic coalition.


And centrists make excuses for conservadems who vote for cutting food stamps.


18. You imagine that anyone would pay to try to convince people like you that mainstream Democratic thinking is correct
Any time you lose an argument, or someone shows your assertion is complete bullshit by referencing established facts (see ProSense), they are clearly being paid to do so. Never mind that actual Koch propaganda is as nutcase and unconvincing as you are, it's all a grand conspiracy, I tell ya! A conspiracy!


Most of the long time posters long since quit clicking on ProSense's links because so often they are bogus and link to her own posts that have nothing to do with the subject matter. Call wolf enough times and people stop responding.


19. You recognize many of these behaviors in the Tea Party, and recognize how much they're damaging the Republicans, but don't acknowledge the same in your own behavior
Your few moments of clarity come when you look at the GOP and see how their extremists are destroying their brand. But the similarities between the Tea Party and you (including a reflexive hatred of the U.S. government and conspiracy mongering) is something that you refuse to acknowledge.


Has Dubya found those WMDs under the Oval Office rug yet? Practically every poster on here remembers a conspiracy to go to war in arguably the worst foreign policy disaster in US history, such an experience changes a person's perception of government or should if they have a functioning neuron or two left.

20. You are incredibly offended by this list
Are you pissed off by this list? Maybe there is a reason for that.


Not pissed off, wearied. At one time DU was a refuge from overwhelming right wing thought, this was particularly true for those of us living in heavily Republican areas, I don't personally know any other liberals and not that many who aren't wingnuts.

Bear in mind that it takes a great deal of personal integrity to maintain a political stance when you are surrounded and overwhelmed by people who think you are evil and should just drop dead due to your politics.

Now no longer is DU a refuge for those of us who are further left, the right hates us and the centrists loathe us, they certainly have that in common.

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #42)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:39 AM

94. lmfao

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #42)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:37 AM

105. "When I do it, it is disagreeing, when the (unspecified) "other" does it, it's hate"

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #105)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 11:15 AM

244. Typical narcissistic trait

as befits the church membership.

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #42)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:39 PM

155. Please describe this 'hatred' you are talking about from the Left.

This IS a Democratic/Left Forum just fyi.

Sabrina, proud member of the Counterproductive, Left Wingnut contingency

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #155)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:59 PM

172. Not from the "left" - from counterproductive wingnuts

Far from speaking for all Democrats, wingnuts don't even speak for all strong leftists. There are plenty of
people from the left side of the party that I can speak productively with, give and take on both sides, at least illuminating each others' positions, if not actually changing views.

But if you want an example of wingnut hate, naming twenty or so DUers, and calling them "Birtchers", seems pretty clear. That happened in the discussion of my last OP.

Look, Sabrina. If you don't want to acknowledge the anti-Democratic party hatred that a group of very angry, very childish, people type into this website on a daily basis, then be my guest. But I won't get caught up in some kind of coy redefinition game with you: "Oh, calling Obama and everyone who supports him a Fascist Authoritarian Warmonger Traitor Corporatist DLC Third-way Bastard Asshole isn't 'hatred', it's just holding his feet to the fire, and totally true as well."

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #172)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:04 PM

174. You shouldn't have any difficulty point out those comments you

included in your last paragraph. I certainly haven't seen them and know for sure that such comments would be instantly deleted or at least hidden.

So absent some links to these comments, your response doesn't say much of anything about your frequent attacks on the Left here. Not that it ever bothers anyone who is an actual Democrat. When you are certain that Right Wing policies are bad for this country as I am, no matter which side of the aisle they are coming from, no amount of intimidation will cause any shift in those opinions.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #174)


Response to Post removed (Reply #189)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:17 PM

192. Thank you for giving Sabrina an excellent example!

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #192)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:28 PM

197. There are a lot of discussion boards for Conservatives.

Unless you're here to troll, your purpose would better be served elsewhere.

Go back to RedState, where you can complain about how affirmative action ruined MLK's vision, with like -minded A-holes.

http://archive.redstate.com/blogs/conservativedemocrat/2008/jan/21/affirmative_action_is_killing_equality

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Response to Vanje (Reply #197)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:54 PM

209. I'm not a Republican. Or insane. But I repeat myself.

And I have no login on Redstate. There are a lot of Conservative Democrats out in the nation (2 to 1 over very liberal Democrats), and I'm only one.

I will say that race relations are a difficult issue and believe that all sides have work to do. I am supportive of the President's remarks on the MLK anniversary, where he both celebrated the progress that needed to be made, noted that we as a nation (including the white community) needed to go further, and specifically challenged the black community to step up and compete - not to use even obvious racism as an excuse to do nothing.

With the stop-and-frisk in New York and the kinds of attacks on the President, it is exceptionally clear that we're not there yet, but I believe that in 50 to 100 years, the kind of racial animosity that makes Affirmative Action necessary will die away. I do agree that it should not be a permanent program.

Oh, and again thank you for once again showing the kind of hatred I was talking about. You went out of your way to find something you disliked by someone who took the tag as a Conservative Democrat on Redstate just so that you could call me an asshole, while imputing to me a position I do not take.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #174)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:16 PM

191. Calling out specific posts and posters is forbidden by D.U. rules

That's why I don't.

But I believe that I have given you enough so that you could find them yourself if you were so inclined.

Oh, and finally, "intimidate"?!? I mean seriously, you think pointing out counterproductive behaviors is intimidation? I'm not even asking you to change your views. I just think that you can offer a better defense of them than: "Anyone who disagrees with me is an Authoritarian".

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #191)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:21 PM

193. Um, I didn't say it was intimidation, I said that was the intent,

and clearly a failed attempt.

And I really didn't think you could provide those links. Linking to posts is not calling anyone out and is perfectly within the rules of DU.

Anyone who proposes Right Wing policies IS an authoritarian.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #193)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:44 PM

198. Well, Sabrina, if you check you'll notice a few things

In various posts you've made in this very thread...

#1 You pretend that you are sole arbiter on who is a Democrat or not.

#2 Your argumentation consists not of facts, but of name calling.

#3 You state that my "intent" is to "intimidate", which is clearly truthiness coming to the fore - making things up because it makes you feel better(*)

#4 You actually haven't even made any argument. It's all a set of emotional assertions.

Just for the record though, you asked a question, so I should respond. Take a look at this. It's just another example.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

(*) The real reason I made this post was to see if I could get maybe a handful of people to reevaluate their behavior so as to be more effective outside the D.U. Maybe even a handful might actually go volunteer for something to prove that mean old CD wrong, who knows? You see, in real life where people make political decisions, you can't put people on ignore. (Or rather you can, but it's called "ceding the point".)

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #198)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:40 PM

221. Lol, I do love your posts.

'The real reason I made this post was to see if I could get maybe a handful of people to reevaluate their behavior so as to be more effective outside the D.U.'

Now that is hilarious, seriously. Have you ever tried stand-up comedy?

I have no one on ignore, not here and never in RL. I love the interaction I have with people both online and in RL.

Especially those who are so fearful of the Left.

I can never understand this fear of Democrats whose ideas have changed this country for the better. But it was always there, and they always won despite the fear and attacks. That is because when you are right about something, and you believe in something, such as Equal Rights eg, another Leftist idea, you just ignore, or laugh at those who so fear those ideas because you know they are wrong.

I am sorry you are not doing very well trying to get a 'handful of people' to come to your way of thinking here. But I do admire your persistence!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:57 PM

43. I wish I could rec twice!

Great rebuttal to that other divisive screed.



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #43)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:08 PM

56. Allow me...

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 07:57 PM

44. K&R - Good response to that trollish and delusional OP

 

that only the most far gone BOG types could applaud.

I note that your response OP has doubled the recommends already, despite having less than half the time of being posted. I think we can see which point of view the vast majority of DU endorses.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:07 PM

46. That's why you my dawg, dawg.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:18 PM

48. This dawg is wit cha!

 

- K&R!!!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:19 PM

49. Oh hell yes.

Right there with you, dawg.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:20 PM

50. dawg! This post is so good, I think you graduate into being called DOG!

FYI, I love dogs and think the entire bible has been mistranslated and is actually not about God, but about a Dog.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:46 PM

52. knr

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:49 PM

53. This list is just not stupid. It is you that I don't find offensive, at all.

 

k&r.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 08:57 PM

54. This OP is now number one with a bullet on top of the Greatest threads list

 

You win the internets for today, dawg!

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Response to quinnox (Reply #54)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 11:18 PM

74. So... this is some kind of a 'Posting contest'

 

and not a 'Pissing' one?

So, this is some kind of game here on DU? My post is now at the top so my rant MUST be the truth....



A true microcosm of whats wrong with the country!

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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #74)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:42 AM

107. Funny, from you who kept posting r and k numbers in the other thread.

Just like your Conservative friend, irony is completely lost on you.

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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #74)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:22 PM

150. Is it? Not to those of us who take these issues seriously, which thankfully

appears to be a huge majority.

But then you're 'new' here so maybe you're not familiar with how these things work.

Flamebait against the Left requires a response on a Left forum. And this is that response.

Very excellent response imho.

Btw, welcome to DU.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:02 PM

55. Ruff ruff!

 

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:13 PM

58. Why has it become such an exalted position

to disagree with President Obama so much?

I don't agree 100% with him. Among other things, I am disappointed mostly with his position on the kind herb. That is not only a very personal one for me, but one that many need to have changed by him. Maybe when the time is right, he will.

Compared to many past presidents, none have come close to the progressive changes he's brought about. NO where close! The list is amazing! For that I'm grateful that I voted and worked in campaigning for him.

But yet, I read from you Dawg and so many, that it's never enough. It appears you expect perfection.

Since no one has a clue as to what it must be like to be in his position and the reality of how much power he truly has, I can't help but wonder how much idealism has to do with what you demand from him. Which at my age, I know a thing or two about.......

I rarely read praise for him here, other than the Obama group, BOG. Which seems really bizarre to me when the focus is all things democratic and we do have a democratic president who, I believe (from his current accomplishments) has done much of what most democrats wanted, before he was ever elected.

I'm certainly not saying that he doesn't deserve criticism sometimes, but I think that here, it's on overload and now considered to be the new cool. The right must just love reading that here. It's like f'in red meat to them..................

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Response to Isoldeblue (Reply #58)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:44 PM

63. Why do you think that criticizing policies that are so bad for ordinary

people reflects on this President? Why eg, are there so many Republicans in this Democratic administration? Are there no Democrats who are capable of holding those positions?

Did we vote for Republicans or for Democrats? Do you think people will be more hesitant from now on to vote for a Democrat afraid that they might get a Republican cabinet anyhow, so what's the point?

Presidents are politicians. Presidents always get criticism, depending on the choices they make. Some more than others.

This country is and should be more important than any one president.

People care first and foremost about their families. Politicians are not high on the lists of concerns that most people have.

I have always found it very odd when people get fixated on a particular politician to the point where they take it personally if someone disagrees him/her.

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Response to Isoldeblue (Reply #58)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:17 AM

87. because I rememebr b'back in the day' when we here on DU used to laugh at the Repubs

for lining up and genuflecting anything George2 did, only to find some of us are doing the very same now because now the POTUS has a D behind his name

I had always thought one of the many things that differentiated us was the fact that we would question or criticize no matter what

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #87)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:30 PM

181. You deliberately ignored what I actually said.

But you knew that. It's called deflection...........

It's the tone and back-slapping over being critical of Obama, that I find strange. It's the "Look how cool I am", for criticizing him and getting high-fives for it by so many. This thread is loaded with that.

Did you praise him for the many advances for gays he's done?

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Response to Isoldeblue (Reply #181)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:39 PM

184. why is that some here wish to give Obama credit for what the SCOTUS actually did?

I ask because on that same thought does Obama also get 'credit' for not renewing the Voting Rights Act?

now as for DADT yes he did strike that down, after it became obvious the military was quite okay with that

but thanks for proving my point

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #184)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:51 PM

200. You proved mine as well...........

Which is all you want is an argument saying he's a lousy president, in your mind. Not to deal with the reality of any good he's done. Grow up.

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Response to Isoldeblue (Reply #200)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:53 PM

201. where did I say Obama is a "lousy President"

'cause I didn't which only proves you have to make stuff up, and are you clairvoyant, you know what''s in my mind, or did you make that up too?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #201)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 04:34 PM

203. Pfffffffffffffffft

You sure haven't said much good about him. That's not being made up.

Enough. I'm bored with your silliness.

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Response to Isoldeblue (Reply #58)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:54 AM

110. Please address post number 63...........nt

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #110)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:05 PM

175. Where? n/m

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #180)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:35 PM

182. I didn't see it, because I have her on ignore

But I still wouldn't have responded as you demanded me to............. Which is my prerogative to do so.........

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Response to Isoldeblue (Reply #58)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:58 AM

127. +1

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:15 PM

60. Honest, direct and no whiff of...

the manipulative, victim-ish bullshit of the thread that spawned it.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #60)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:49 PM

65. Considering the source of that thread, no one is surprised.

Those threads are very revealing though. They confirm a lot of people's suspicions about a certain element that has been invading Democratic forums since around 2004.

As you can see, they are very much in the minority and have not won over a single person to the Dem Party, in fact I often wonder if the goal is to drive people away from the Dem Party.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #65)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:14 PM

68. IIR, one item on that hit-list was about volunteering.

You gotta wonder how they conduct themselves when doing all that canvassing they claim to do...

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #65)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:57 AM

111. This is what happens when

we allow the treason of Iran-Contra to fester.

Now listen to this.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #111)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:45 PM

158. Great song. And yes, once the crime of treason that WAS Iran/Contra

was allowed to go unpunished, for the most part, the downward slide was inevitable.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 09:46 PM

64. I agree with most of your post

But I wonder why, fresh from victories on Syria and Summers, that you are ready to give up on working within the system. Not voting is truly counterproductive. Why not be a productive wingnut?

"Lost soul" is an dramatization. Right now the Republicans are trying to cut food stamps by $40 billion. The Democrats are opposing that. The Democrats are usually on the right side.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:00 PM

66. That Dawg hunts and bags it's prey!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:05 PM

67. Hear, hear!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:18 PM

69. I had, unfortunately, just run across the rather disturbing post to which this is a response, and

was just trying to remember where I left the mind bleach (my brandy), when I saw this one. thank you, thank you, thank you. you saved me looking for the brandy, and said everything I would want to say, and so much more graciously than I would have.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:18 PM

70. K&R n/t

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 10:54 PM

71. Proud to be a leftwing nutjob with you and the many other fine folks on this thread.

My brother voted Dem last election. Today he told me he will likely not vote for Prez in next election. He feels that the Dems are no longer representing him and he knows the Repubs are not.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 11:05 PM

73. Can I make a list of all the posters

 

who RECed this post and post it here like was done on 'Top 20 signs you might be a counterproductive left wingnut' or would that be petty?

Just asking.

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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #73)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 11:34 PM

77. It's public information, anyone can see it by clicking on the yellow box above the rec button.

But go right ahead and post it - we who rec'd this OP already know who we are, and aren't a bit ashamed of it.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #77)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 11:44 PM

78. Thanks for the permission...

 

But I don't need your permission...

I wont post it because it IS a childish thing to do. Worthless like the list on the other post.

Tit-for-tat posts are ALL worthless really. Like the OP here!

Of course, just my opinion.



And a tit-for-tat reply in 3...2...1...


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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #78)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 11:49 PM

80. Please keep posting!

I'm glad to see this thread getting kicked.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #80)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:03 AM

81. Hey...no prob. Glad to help.

 

I keep posting on the other 'evil' thread too to keep it getting kicked. Dueling threads..... Thanks for reminding me. Have to head over and read the newest responses from the 'That's Not Me So Shut Up And Stop Posting About Me' crowd.
Maybe you should see my response on #74 about 'pissing contests' though. Has some relevance here.

Off to kick a post.

Keep the home (hair) fires burning!





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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #81)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:07 AM

89. Thanks for all the advice for us novices.

Last edited Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:40 AM - Edit history (2)

Where would we be without you?

None of us know enough to question things on our own or do research, such as how this poster does: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3709805

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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #81)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:04 PM

162. You need a hobby

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Response to Vanje (Reply #162)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 05:29 PM

247. Knitting socks is very relaxing I'm told.

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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #73)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:09 AM

90. Please do. We aren't ashamed

to have our user names attached to this. Why were you so against being associated with that other post?

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #90)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:26 AM

91. Not at all...

 

My name wasn't even on the list..and I feel a bit slighted strangely enough!

No, the problem with making a list of ones enemies within your own community is that it reeks of McCarthyism and Teabagger mentality. Not really in the definition of a Liberal at all. Or do you have a different definition?

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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #91)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:34 AM

92. I get that sense

"...and I feel a bit slighted strangely enough!"

that you do feel slighted. I wonder why it took all these months for your exuberant personality to find its voice here. That aside, I'd argue it is the (edit: other thread's) author who is seeking to define enemies within the community, and all his supporters condoning it. Oh, and they do have a list they've passed around. Not sure how up to date it is, though.

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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #91)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:14 AM

133. so transparent

"Can I make a list of all the posters

who RECed this post and post it here like was done on 'Top 20 signs you might be a counterproductive left wingnut' or would that be petty?

Just asking."

-------------------one minute later---------------------------


"... the problem with making a list of ones enemies within your own community is that it reeks of McCarthyism and Teabagger mentality."

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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #91)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:20 PM

179. Then why do you keep babbling on about it?

"No, the problem with making a list of ones enemies within your own community is that it reeks of McCarthyism and Teabagger mentality"

You made the suggestion, now you call your own suggestion McCarthyism. Maybe you should quit while you're behind.

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Response to macspanicattack (Reply #73)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:47 PM

185. You can feel free to post my rec if you want. I would have rec'd it

ten times if I could.

What makes you think anyone who rec'd this post would be ashamed of it in any way? The OTHER one? Are you saying those who rec'd that thread should be ashamed?

Maybe so, but certainly not this one.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 11:25 PM

75. I agree. I got called a troll because I did not find a BO post

with a picture of him with a little girl adorable. I made a sarcastic reference to the TPP. Yes I could have worded it better. The jury voted to hide my post.
But I am not going to stand for people putting on rose colored glasses an asking others to drink the kool-aid. The disconnect is almost frightening. If I do not support such policies from a rethug, why on earth would I just because one is a democrat. In fact I find it even more heinous as the calculated coldness required to sell us down the river is crazy making. I think it causes some people to go into a state of denial. I can only hope self preservation kicks in.

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Response to WCLinolVir (Reply #75)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:12 AM

86. Well if that post you made was in the BOG then you've also been banned from there.



But don't worry, it's a badge of honor if you agree with this OP.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 11:25 PM

76. K&R

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sat Sep 21, 2013, 11:49 PM

79. Beautifully said ....

... unlike that other post which was just ridiculous on its face.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:04 AM

82. Republicans transitioned twice, becoming the party of corporate isolationists after WWI

they actually called WWII "Roosevelt's War."

After Democrats allowed blacks into the party in 1948, and Strom Thurmond left the party, they transitioned to the Democratic party became the Party of Civil Rights under Kennedy and Johnson.

Republicans in the 50's kicked the white supremacist John Birchers out under the leadership of Buckley. Republicans really began the transition to a Southern White Corporatist Party with Nixon's Southern Strategy. Reagan made it an art form with his happy American Populism. Since Reagan, Republicans have continued right, losing their Rockefeller Republicans in the North East. By 2009, they replaced the North Eastern center right (now they are Democrats) with the John Birch Society and its inheritor, the Tea Party. Today, a candidate with Reagan's achievements of raising taxes on the rich and giving immunity to illegal aliens would be called a Big Government Socialist by Republicans.

As Republicans drifted right, so did the Political Center of the Country and the Democratic Party.

Jimmy Carter ran as a fiscal Conservative social liberal, and was to the right of Johnson. Clinton also ran as a fiscal Conservative social liberal and with his third way folk was to the right of Cater, politically. President Obama is to the right of Clinton. His ACA is almost identical to the Bill Republicans put up in opposition to Clinton's attempt to pass health care. (The Individual Mandate was the love child of the Heritage Foundation and Republicans in Congress back in the 90's). It is Romney's Health-care bill from Mass. But it is a real beginning to moving America toward national Health care, and along with recognizing Gay Marriage and the end of Don't Ask Don't Tell, it shows to me that the Political Center has ceased to drift right and may be moving back left.

The real problem in our system is America's Imperial reach into the World Stage. It really kicked in with Truman. Though the greatest advances in Civil Rights were achieved under Johnson, they have been in slow retreat since the Johnson Administration as the US became more embroiled as a Super Power.

The Party isn't selling its soul, it is doing what Power Groups do, finding the most efficient method of staying in power. Since the Rockefeller Republicans have joined the Party, (third wave/blue dog) they have proven a powerful moneyed source with great influence. The left in this country is not dead, but it is ailing. (The Occupy Movement gave me hope of a resurgence of the left, but they were not invited into the Democratic Party and short of establishing or joining someone like he Greens their movement will be slow to make changes because it has no influence over those in power.)

The Democrats are still our best chance of getting anything done for the majority of Americans. When in power, they will pass a few small items to keep the left happy, but they will never deliver on the big things (Medicare for all). But no one should expect big things form them, and divided government will bring us close to failed state status.

Neither party will withdraw from our Imperial reach into the world so their foreign diplomacy will be different only in nuance.

It is possible that the Republicans will do a Whig and collapse. If they do, I'm betting their isolationist Corporatist Libertarian branch will emerge as the top banana after a few election cycles. It is also possible that the Tea Party Caucasus will change party to the Real Tea Party (which is basically White Supremacy/John Birch/Republic of Tea). As such, they will disappear because their appeal is too narrow in a two party system.

Oddly, the left and the Libertarian Right agree on one thing, that the US Empire must end. They don't agree on anything else, of course, but a disgusted left and disgusted libertarians who voted in protest or didn't vote at all could lead to low turnout elections where neither party has a real valid mandate to govern which will lead to even more of what we have now.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #82)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:06 AM

88. ++ nt

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:04 AM

83. Perfect!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:11 AM

85. K&R x 1000 -- n/t

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:36 AM

93. I'm damn proud to be "counterproductive"

in the eyes of the right wing.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:42 AM

95. Truth tellers always get more flak

when they are over the target

great post the 'wingnut' attack was unnecessary in the other post.

but I think they need to use those attacks since they are not liberal or progressive but are self proclaimed conservative.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:07 AM

96. K&R! I have yet to read the thread, dawg.

I can only imagine the words of the "defenders".

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #96)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:03 PM

173. The defenders position consisted entirely of


"Oh, you're complaining, we must be right!"

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Response to sibelian (Reply #173)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 07:31 PM

220. The Defenders

 

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:08 AM

97. Thank you. I agree completely. When the president is right, I will say it.

 

When the president is wrong, I will say it.

Political Party affiliation be damned. I'm a liberal before I'm a Democrat!

Grayson, Warren, Kucinich, Wyden, Whitehouse, Sanders and Sherrod Brown speak for me!

So does Hinchey, Grijalva, the Congressional Black Caucus and the Congressional Progressive Caucus speak for me!

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Response to Nanjing to Seoul (Reply #97)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:56 AM

143. And *I* thank you, my dear Nanjing to Seoul.

I agree completely with you.

I too was a liberal before I was a Democrat.

Well said!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:13 AM

99. I propose this as a theme song for the dilemma we face.

Objections?

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:29 AM

101. I like the defiance. Let them know what we believe and how many of us there are.

You've totally nailed it. Thank you for this.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:52 AM

109. Thank you.

 

Maybe it is just my imagination, but the chief complaint about us lefty wingnuts seems to be "failure to praise". Bizarre and sorta disturbing.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 04:57 AM

112. Proud leftie since the late 60's

My father always told me the biggest difference between a D and a R was that a good D was not afraid to criticize their party when they were wrong. In fact they were expected to do so.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:40 AM

113. Moderating our positions on economic matters "somewhat" -

is killing us. The economic inequality in this country is literally killing us. It is bad now, worse than it's been in the past 100 years, and will drop to abysmal if we lose ACA and more food stamps.

If we keep going down this road of "compromise" with lunatics we will be a full-fledged third world country with a few global elite and everyone else back to peasant status.



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Response to TBF (Reply #113)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:32 PM

211. But we have more billionaires than any other nation, and that's what really matters, isn't it?

 

We've been subjected to this insanely stupid idea for two generations, and far too many of us lack the capacity to understand what a monumentally bad idea it is. And don't go blaming the republican party, they had plenty of help from their peers on the other side of the isle. We have nominal people right here that still defend the bankrupt notions put forth all those years ago.

James Carville may be an anal singularity, but he nailed one thing perfectly, "It's the economy, stupid".

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #211)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 09:37 AM

241. Agree 100%. nt

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:47 AM

114. Well, I trashed that other thread,

and recced yours. Also noted that some of those who recced the other post are on my IL. I don't miss their noise.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #114)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:35 PM

213. Jury results...

LOL

At Sun Sep 22, 2013, 07:01 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Well, I trashed that other thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3710448

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Admitted to 'Trashing' another post to help another post become more popular.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Sep 22, 2013, 07:12 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: OMG, DU, grow the Fuck up.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Seriously, alerter?
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Oh lord, really? Use your posts to shoot spitballs, not the alert feature.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


I was #2, FWIW.

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Response to WorseBeforeBetter (Reply #213)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:48 PM

222. How strange.

I put the other thread in the trash bin because I found it derisive and abrasive. I recced this OP because I agree with the author. I am unaware of the 'trashing another post to help another post to become more popular' strategy.

Besides, this OP clearly doesn't need any 'help' from me to make it 'more popular.' It's already more popular. And, that does not surprise me...

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:58 AM

117. I will continue to be a left wing moonbat with no hesitation. At least facts back up what I say

 

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 07:11 AM

118. K & R.

nt

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 07:13 AM

119. Bottom-line, one word answer required ...

 

It is 2014, your preferred candidate lost in the Democratic Primary, leaving the pro-choice, supporter of gay rights, willing to raise taxes somewhat on the wealthy, and supporter of a health insurance plan that is/will be an improvement over what existed before, Democratic candidate to face the generic modern gop candidate:

For Whom do you vote?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #119)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 07:34 AM

120. Seeing as how I live in a deep red district ...

I know that the person I vote for will not win my district, anyway.

So I have to decide, on a case by case basis, which political "message" it is more important for my vote to send. Is it more important for the Democrats to get at least 40% and still be considered at least a remotely credible threat? Or would it be better for a third party to gain some ground, perhaps drawing more attention to the fact that the Democrats do, indeed, have a left flank to worry about?

In closely contested elections, my heart still tells me to vote for the Democrat, even if I don't particularly like him. But in most elections, where I'm tilting at windmills either way, I can't really say I know for sure anymore.


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Response to dawg (Reply #120)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:09 AM

121. Thank you for responding ...

 

I live in a deep red state (the land of McCain and Flake); but fortunately a Bluish district (currently represented by Barber, in the House, and Gifford before that), so I feel for you.

All I can offer is: My message sending is done during the primaries; but before that, by being involved in Democratic campaigns during the primaries. In both the cases of Barber and Gifford, I campaigned for their more liberal opponents; but at the end of the day, I campaigned for Barber, Glassman and Carmona against Flake. Why? Because, in each case, they represented my political values closer than McGrath, McCain or Flake.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:44 AM

124. KNR. Truth to power (and money, and those who grovel before it)

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:46 AM

125. K&R

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:13 AM

128. DURec

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:15 AM

129. Why don't conservative democrats become trojan republicans

We can all laugh about this plan to infiltrate the republican party in 2020 when the house passes single payer!

Who among you brave conservative democrats will step forward to
TAKE YOUR PARTY BACK?

FOURTH WAY REPUBLICANS THIS IS YOUR CLARION CALL!!!!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:15 AM

134. "President Obama has lots of admirable qualities"

President Obama has lots of admirable qualities, and I agree with him on a number of issues. He's pro-choice, a staunch supporter of gay rights and civil rights in general, he has been willing to raise taxes somewhat on the wealthy, and his health insurance plan will be an improvement over what existed before.

But I grow more and more convinced that the Democratic Party is in the process of selling its soul.

And I don't blame President Obama. He's just one of many.

Not demeaning and dismissing the President for his "staunch" support of gay rights and civil rights. Acknowledging that the health care law will be an improvement.

"I opposed targeted assassinations of U.S. citizens under President Bush, so I also oppose them under President Obama.

I supported getting bin Laden, and took no issue with drones. I understand the point of objection, but also believe that if a President is going to take military action, drones maybe preferable to ground troops.

I opposed invasive NSA spying and blanket warrants under President Bush, so I also oppose them under President Obama.

I opposed illegal spying under Bush, and still do.

"I opposed proposed cuts to Social Security and Medicare under President Bush, so I also oppose them under President Obama."

I vehemently oppose cuts to both programs. The President's chained-CPI proposal was bad, and I'm glad it didn't get beyond an offer to the GOP. He strengthened Medicare and expanded benefits for seniors.

All in all, I think the President has done a lot of good, and think kill the bill arguments have done more harm than good in debates when the disagreement is the bill doesn't go far enough.

Such arguments failed to stop the health care law, but unfortunately, succeeded in killing climate change legislation (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023701065#post23)



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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:23 AM

136. Happy to be the

249th rec on this OP!

Very nicely done.

And looky, you even managed to talk about yourself rather than sling insults at others.

Amazing.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:26 AM

137. A post worthy on the level of bvar, sabrina, manny, and woomewithscience.

I mean that in a good way. Thumbs up!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:40 AM

139. Great OP Dawg!

I think the authoritarian third way neo-liberal apologists owe it to us to try and explain away ANY of your points.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:51 AM

141. Vote out all Republicans

Most productive liberals agree with most of these points. They just don't see a need to sabotage their principles by losing politically in the name of their own egos. The counterproductive liberals are a thin minority of whiners who say things like "I grow more and more convinced that the Democratic Party is in the process of selling its soul. " They say these things because they have what they think are keen observation skills and strong ethical fiber. We might therefore call them "ironic" as well as "counterproductive."

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:51 AM

142. Recommend.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:57 AM

144. Kick and rec.

There are plenty of posters that do nothing but scream about how awful liberals are, and we're supposed to pretend like we don't notice that their hatred is primarily for all things left. The post you're responding to is crawling with them.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:46 AM

146. neo-conservatism is and had been disastrous

for the country. I am a progressive, so my goal is: PROGRESS. Why don't we have high-speed rail? Or the best schools in the world? Or a single payer healthcare system? Or investment in crumbling infrastructure? Or an earlier retirement age? Why must we continue to have diminished expectations of what government can do for us little people while Wall Street, oil companies, defense contractors and the 1% can feed off the government trough with impunity?

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #146)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:50 PM

199. Good post!

I'm with you!

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #199)

Thu Sep 26, 2013, 05:31 PM

250. thank you...the gop is all about diminished expectations

hence the tea party "activists" advocating for the 1%. government is not inherently bad, but it has not been good for workers for a long time.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:48 AM

147. dawg

speaks for me


thanks and
peace, kp

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:35 PM

153. Well Stated! Great Post!

I've been there for So long....You said "it" most eloquently-thank you.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:38 PM

154. Excellent post and I agree 100%.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:11 PM

164. Many proudly clamor to join you!

How very, very sad. I'm not talking about the self righteousness or the overblown sense of self importance. Sure those things are sad and worthy of note on their own.

What I find sad is how very many are proudly claiming the mantle of counter-productive.

What I wish I could say is that I am surprised.

Sadly, the only thing that would surprise me on DU anymore would be if someone wrote a post talking about positive real world action that would provide results and many DUers excitedly joining in with reports of their own real world activities.

Working in tandem for a better world would be a splendid thing, instead I self self congratulatory pap, perhaps one of DUs largest circle jerks of everyone rejoicing in the delusion that by pissing and moaning on DU much ha been achieved.

All I can say is I sure hope this place provides a good living for the admins because it contributes almost nothing positive in any other aspect.

Julie

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #164)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:41 PM

169. It is not an unusual thing ...

for people who have been ridiculed and insulted to turn around and wear that insult as a badge of honor.

Sadly, I am keenly aware that I am not one of the "important" people, but that does not stop me from expressing my opinions.

As for DU being worthless, I think you are very wrong. At the very least, it has kept you entertained.

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #164)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:19 PM

177. A host on DU trashing DU? Nice.

I take it your browser only picks up this one website? That you're trapped here against your will?

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #177)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 06:14 AM

236. No, it's like having had a favorite

restaurant that had great service and served wonderful food. Then it slowly changes for the worse. You can't help but go back once in a while, hoping maybe it's gotten better again.

And yeah, I'm a host at the Atheist group, what of it? It's one of the few parts of DU I still even recognize~~though LBN is still of some value.

Julie

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #164)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:12 PM

190. Did you post a similar admonition to the OP of the thread

this is responding to?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #190)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 04:57 PM

204. LOL let me try to translate for you Sabrina.

Some guy posted a really long really cool thread that insulted progressives on DU that have not been shy about expressing their views and at times disappointment with President Obama. It didn't make a whole lot of sense but the insults and insinuations were GREAT! And all of my pals and I high fived the thread. All 87 of us. (At this point)

Now some guy has posted a rebuttal and it has been recced by 305 DUers.

So I am going to cherry pick "counterproductive" from the title of this OP and make a straw man argument from it. Lamenting the fact that 305 DUers are proud to be "counterproductive".

Conclusion. DU is worthless.

That about sum it up?

Oh and full disclosure. If the recs were the other way around. I meaning me, Puglover would find another website to read and post on. Because clearly this one would not be a good fit for me.

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Response to Puglover (Reply #204)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 09:33 AM

240. I think that sums it up perfectly Puglover. I simply asked what I think was

a pretty fair question, considering this IS a Democratic Forum and the OP in question was clearly anti Democrats and in return received a diabribe of antagonism from someone I hardly know. It's interesting, to say the least.

Thanks for the excellent interpretation. I agree btw, that if the recs were reversed this would not be a good fit for a whole lot of Democrats.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #190)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 06:22 AM

237. I don't follow the now

allowed everywhere lounge technique of compycat threads. This may come as a shock to a denzian like yourself but there are many of us who visit DU who don't live here.

I stop in once in a while these days. You never disappoint though. While I pay little attention to names of posters and such I have noticed that if there's a thread full of negative energy you'll be there. I believe you did your shit-throwing-monkey nonsense in my general direction once so again, your name manages to stick out. Like that ring one can't completely scrub from the otherwise spotless toilet.

Julie

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #164)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:44 PM

214. Then why are you here if you find nothing positive about DU?

Sounds a bit masochistic.

In my world, LBN, Good Reads, Netflix, Photography and the North Carolina group fucking rock. Perhaps you need to get out more.

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Response to WorseBeforeBetter (Reply #214)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 06:11 AM

235. Oh don't worry!

I read DU less and less. I find the Atheist forum a nice refuge from idiocy.

Other than that, what can I say? Hope springs eternal. Been coming here since it began and while still getting news from LBN, I often wander to GD to see if there's anything worth reading. On occasion there is but mostly just snotty little pieces of crap like your post along with self-congratulatory pap like the OP.

Julie--who remember DU being MUCH different, so different I even used to send folks here for good, enlightened discussion~~~long ago and far away

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #235)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 08:44 AM

239. Look in a mirror, Julie, if you want "snotty little pieces of crap like your post."

There are scads of groups/forums "worth reading," you're protesting too much.

GD is the new Meta, and many seem to be taking advantage of it. Including ConservativeDemocrat, who deliberately started this latest shitstorm. What's absolutely hilarious is that he (a possible RedStater) posts his little hitlist, receives pushback, and those in agreement sputter, unable to handle the pushback.

What are you doing to make DU suck less, since you think it sucks so much?

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #164)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 07:11 PM

217. I posted such a thread the other day, it got considerably more recs than replies

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023699965

I don't recall seeing you on that thread.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #217)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 06:08 AM

234. What a great post!

Thanks for linking to it! I had missed it. I work baker hours and do't tune into DU as much as I used to. I don't have as much time and what little I have I choose not to spend reading all about how awful everything (especially anything Democratic party!!) is.

I have noticed a real uptick in self-congratulatory posts (some I suspect typed with one had) and negativity throughout. Great to read your glimmer-of-hope post!

Julie

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #234)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 08:24 AM

238. The way to find those kind of posts is look for ones with more recs than replies

The posts with lots of replies and few recs are seldom fruitful and the ones with both are a mixed bag but when an OP is not controversial but popular it's usually more positive.

Thanks for your kind words Julie, I hope you have a great day.




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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:30 PM

167. then get your ass out and get us a democratic controlled house!!!!!!!

All of that would end TODAY, if PBO had a house that would pass his agenda.

but WE as a country, WE as democrats(and even you liberals) have failed to deliver that to him. You can only blame gerrymandering so much. The real key, is to EDUCATE the american voter.

which, is a key point of the post you are responding to. Which ironically points out that he was correct

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #167)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:38 PM

168. He had two years of a Democratic house and was unable to get

much of anything done. As far as the current situation goes, nothing can be done until Democratic candidates quit racing to the right, start distinguishing themselves from the right and start winning local elections.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #167)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:48 PM

171. Some of the things I am opposed to are part of his agenda.

I would love it if we had the house back too, but I think our problems go way deeper than that.

And again, I mention the President's agenda only because you brought it up. He is far from being the only Democrat who has embraced conservative economic frames.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #167)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:57 PM

187. We did that. It did't do much good and all we heard were excuses.

How do you feel about all the Republicans this president has apppointed to powerful positions in his Cabinet? Does 'getting our asses out' mean we are now going to 'win' only to return the 'losers' to powerful positions in Democratic Cabinets??

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #167)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:26 PM

194. "if PBO had a house that would pass his agenda"

The Arkansas Democratic Primary was a heart breaking eye opener for the Grass Roots and Organized LABOR. We were given a Look Behind the Curtain,
and it wasn't very pretty.

[font size=3]We did EVERYTHING right in Arkansas in 2010.
We did EXACTLY what the White House asked us to do to "give the President Progressives in Congress that would work with him."[/font]

We organized and supported Lt Governor Bill Halter, the Pro-LABOR/ Pro-Health Care challenger to DINO Obstructionist Blanche Lincoln.
Halter was:

* Polling BETTER against the Republicans in the General,

*was popular in Arkansas in his OWN right,

*had an Up & Running Political machine,

* had a track record of winning elections (Lt. Governor)

*Had the full backing of Organized LABOR and The Grass Roots activists

*was handing Blanche her Anti-LABOR ass in The Primary until the White House stepped in

*Blanche had NO chance of winning the General in Arkansas

Guess what happened.
Our BIGGEST enemy to bring "change" to The Senate was NOT The "Obstructionist" Republicans.
NO!
Our BIGGEST enemy to bring progressive "change" to The Senate was The Obama White House!

The White House stepped in at the last minute to save Blanche's failing primary campaign with an Oval Office Endorsement of The Witch that Wrecked the Obama Agenda,
and Bill Clinton was dispatched on a Campaign Tour for Blanche around the state bashing Organized LABOR and "Liberals" at every opportunity.

White House steps in to rescue Lincoln’s failing Primary Campaign in Arkansas
"So what did the Democratic Party establishment do when a Senator who allegedly impedes their agenda faced a primary challenger who would be more supportive of that agenda? They engaged in full-scale efforts to support Blanche Lincoln.

* Bill Clinton traveled to Arkansas to urge loyal Democrats to vote for her, bashing liberal groups for good measure.

*Obama recorded an ad for Lincoln which, among other things, were used to tell African-American primary voters that they should vote for her because she works for their interests.

*The entire Party infrastructure lent its support and resources to Lincoln — a Senator who supposedly prevents Democrats from doing all sorts of Wonderful, Progressive Things which they so wish they could do but just don’t have the votes for.

<snip>

What happened in this race also gives the lie to the insufferable excuse we’ve been hearing for the last 18 months from countless Obama defenders: namely, if the Senate doesn’t have 60 votes to pass good legislation, it’s not Obama’s fault because he has no leverage over these conservative Senators. It was always obvious what an absurd joke that claim was; the very idea of The Impotent, Helpless President, presiding over a vast government and party apparatus, was laughable. But now, in light of Arkansas, nobody should ever be willing to utter that again with a straight face.

Back when Lincoln was threatening to filibuster health care if it included a public option, the White House could obviously have said to her: if you don’t support a public option, not only will we not support your re-election bid, but we’ll support a primary challenger against you. Obama’s support for Lincoln did not merely help; it was arguably decisive, as The Washington Post documented today:"

<much more>

http://www.salon.com/2010/06/10/lincoln_6/


When the supporters of Pro-LABOR Lt Gov Bill Halter asked the White House WHY they threw their support behind Lincoln at the last minute, rescuing her failing campaign, the answer was ridicule and insults to Organized LABOR and the Grass Roots for wasting our money.

Ed Schultz sums up my feeling perfectly in the following clip.
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/ed-schultz-if-it-wasnt-labor-barack-obama-

Those walking away from this disaster concluded that the Party Establishment would rather have an Anti-Working Class Republican sitting in the Senate Seat than an honest to gawd Pro-LABOR Democrat.
It was difficult to argue with this conclusion.



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]



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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:19 PM

178. Lefty wingnuts are ALL productive to some extent.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:47 PM

186. One of our society's greatest problems imo is there are far too right wing-nuts and

far too few left wing-nuts. The reason for this seemingly inexplicable disparity is the veritable plethora of right-wing lies and distortions that are constantly spewed forth in the media and elsewhere on an all too ignert populace.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 03:27 PM

196. Awesome post

Awesome rec number. Kick!

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:12 PM

205. Why do you have more recs than the other post about the "counter productive left"??

But he/she/it has more comments?

Can anyone explain that?

Could it be that one is in a minority here but think they are in a majority? Which one would that be?

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Response to kentuck (Reply #205)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:52 PM

227. "libdems are just a third of a third!" "DU isn't representative of the party or America!"

they ARE, however, right about that last one: 70-90% of Americans want real gun registration, Social Security, Plan E, no war, no fracking: that number might be only 85% here

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:51 PM

208. +1000! nt

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:58 PM

210. Fuck yeah!



RL

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 07:13 PM

219. the Democrats aren't in the process of selling their souls. Those at the top sold out long ago

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:58 PM

223. Oh, I think I see the problem - you REFUSE to see the differences

between Bush and Obama on many issues.

There are many, whether you choose to see them or not.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:05 PM

225. Thanks, dawg.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:33 PM

230. K&R for pissing off all the RIGHT people!

 

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Response to Rex (Reply #230)

Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:46 PM

231. K&R

Boot to the head!

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Response to Rex (Reply #230)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 05:10 PM

246. Amen

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 02:18 AM

232. OK, now what??????????

So you've listed many issues that you believe in regardless of who occupies the Oval Office and/or which party controls Congress. And many folks have agreed with you. I also agree with you on almost all points but I have to ask, OK, now what? If you oppose targeted assassinations, NSA spying, etc. what are you doing to stop it? It's one thing to take issue with bad policies regardless of what political party is in power, but there are many ways you can help to end these policies and many have little to do with electoral politics.

I am not a full-bore political activist like I was in the 1960s and 70s. I'm old and disabled. But I support groups like the ACLU and the Center for Constitutional Rights and the Lawyers Guild. I support my union, the CWA. I participated in the local Occupy group. There are hundreds of local and national organizations that work on changing the policies we all find abhorrent. Join one or two. Participate when you can.



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Response to dawg (Original post)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 04:37 AM

233. Impressive post. A heartfelt rec. -nt-

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 10:39 AM

242. K&R

Using the other thread to update the ignore list.

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 11:02 AM

243. K&R! nt

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 03:52 PM

245. Kick...rec. n/t

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 05:31 PM

248. THIS

 

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Response to dawg (Original post)

Mon Sep 23, 2013, 07:17 PM

249. Kick. (n/t)

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