So Putin calls Kerry's bluff, the White House backtracks, and this is interpreted . . .

[markpkessinger]

. . . as "President Obama is winning." Say, can you pass that pipe my way so I can take a hit?

[VanillaRhapsody]

1. what backtrack? Has the vote been called off?

[markpkessinger]

15. The backtrack is that the White House now claims Kerry's offer was just "rhetorical" n/t

[Turborama]

44. You might call it a backtrack, but it's actually called diplomacy

What is likely to have happened is that President Obama made an offer behind closed doors to Putin at the G20.

Putin himself said Friday at a news conference marking the summit's end that he and Obama discussed some new ideas regarding a peaceful settlement of the crisis and instructed Kerry and Lavrov to work out details.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russia-syria-push-chemical-experts-return-20197291?singlePage=true

Which Kerry later let slip (accidentally on purpose) to the media at a press conference. The diplomatic thing to do afterwards was to say it was "rhetorical".

[truedelphi]

76. In any event, now there is a hope for diplomacy. n/t

[Cleita]

2. Actually, it's because the polls are saying, we the people, are overwhelmingly against this.

They are paying attention. I think they would backtrack even without this life line thrown to them.

[VanillaRhapsody]

9. How about a Blink by Assad and Putin?

couldn't possibly be that now could it? Of course not ODS.

[progressoid]

23. ODS?

So the 60-70% of people that are opposed to bombing have ODS?

[VanillaRhapsody]

26. 60 to 70% are not on political blogs and should know better...

I give them the benefit of the doubt...

[progressoid]

37. Uhmm...ok.

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. sure...

[MNBrewer]

73. There seem to be two distinct forms of ODS.

Your commentary is an example of one of the forms.

[Junkdrawer]

3. Whew, Close call.

Peace Threatened and the Administration quickly responded....

Nothing a last-minute move of goalposts can't fix....

We have aways been at war with East Asia (and demanding Regime Change!)

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. wasn't getting rid of chemical weapons always the "goalpost"

Obama has always been big on non-proliferation soo...going to be hard to prove...

[Junkdrawer]

34. I thought so....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023630987

[DevonRex]

4. Relevant to your post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023629695#post10

[Pretzel_Warrior]

6. LOLOLOLOL!

yes, that is one of the reasons for my post. a great reference when people continue to hail the leadership and infallibility of the blue-eyed Bear of Russia.

[DevonRex]

8. I loved your post. It was so right on.

Spot on. So vivid it didn't really need pictures. But the ones that followed were priceless.

[markpkessinger]

17. I'm not hailing Putin's leadership in the slightest . . .

. . . I'm merely saying he called Kerry's bluff. And now the White House is saying, in effect, "Well, Secretary didn't actually mean . . ."

[karynnj]

81. Obama told Diane Sawyer

that Kerry will work with Lavrov on this. So - obviously no backtrack on this.

[markpkessinger]

82. So why did the White House claim Kerry's offer was merely "rhetorical?"

I have posed this question repeatedly in this thread, and no one has provided an answer.

[ProSense]

5. "the first acknowledgment by the Syrian government that it even possesses chemical weapons"

"the first acknowledgment by the Syrian government that it even possesses chemical weapons"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023630685

This is reality.

[Iliyah]

49. And Assad has a whole lot of it as well

Russia probably doesn't know the extent of it neither. At least reality kicked in and Russia has acknowledged it.

[ocpagu]

7. Exactly my reaction.

Let's face it: this has been a disaster under the diplomatic point of view.

1 - The US government failed to gather allies, but insisted in having them, though not a single one of them said they would support military action. Except, the altruist, humanitarian Saudi government which offered to use US military as cheap mercenaries...

2 - The US government insisted in claiming responsability over the attacks was established without any doubts. Another defeat, it was forced to take it back after being contradicted by world leaders, NGOs and even the United Nations and admit their "solid evidence" is not more than "common sense".

3 - They first said they would attack Syria, then, that they will hear Congress first. Then, they will go along with the attack with or without congressional approval. Finnaly, they take it back and say they'll respect what congress has to say.

4 - Kerry says "we would not bomb them if they give up their CW". Russia jumps in, Syria agrees. Then, WH says "well, it was only rhetorical".

Really. It looks like not a single person in the government knows what they are doing. How's that a victory?

[VanillaRhapsody]

11. yeah and of course you have been so right all along

by the way...as of this morning the number of countries on board with a strike was 14 last I heard....but I digress...please continue.

the U.S. was forced to "take back that Assad did it" and "it was contradicted by world leaders NGO's and the U.N.?"

It was? Funny for the first time...Assad has admitted this morning that he even has them at all...but again...do go on.....please pretty please!

[pkdu]

19. 4 times wrong....but keep going , it's fun to watch...

1. " not a single one......except" ....lets leave that turd right there shall we , or look dwn thread for the others if needed.

2. Evidence from intercepts has been provided to congress. Unless you profer they are fictitious.

3. Your President said its within his authority ...deal with it or at least try to keep up.

4. Dd you deliberately leave out " within a week" or were you just lazy?


Btw.....the site you want is this way.......----------------->

[ocpagu]

29. Not really.

1 - The sentence is right. Not a single one. Not even Saudi Arabia. They offered paying for US expenses, not to send their own men to fight.

2 - The congressmen that saw the "evidence" provided all said it was weak. The US government itself admitted it has only "common sense" to back their word.

3 - I'm not American, he's not my president. Under international law and the United Nations Charter, Obama doesn't have authority to order an attack against a country that has not attacked first. It would be a war crime.

4 - It all happened today.

5 - This is the first time I'm called a right winger. Generally people here accuse me of being a communist.

[pnwmom]

10. Kerry sends up a trial balloon; Putin catches it and puts a smiley face on it,

and takes it to Assad and says: "Look what I stole from Kerry. Do you want it?"

[VanillaRhapsody]

12. epic fail

[Skidmore]

14. Just not sexy enough for a fabulous CT eh?

I tend to think that there has been a lot of smart people putting in a serious amount of effort over this issue.

[Phlem]

16. Epic Fail? LOL

[VanillaRhapsody]

22. Yeah I pointed on why in my post above...

the "most countries, NGO's and the UN agree..." part especially hilarious.

[Phlem]

27. Last thing I read said they agreed on

Empirical undeniable evidence before running into a war based on speculation and here say. Because we've never done that before have we?

Again, why do we insist on being the world's police?

So much damage has been done to the US by it's own citizens let alone in other countries and yet we are the moral compass?

LOL!



-p

[VanillaRhapsody]

32. then you haven't heard from the 14 that was mentioned huh?

We insist on people not being gassed....you got a problem with that?

[ocpagu]

40. You insist on BOMBING people to save them from being gassed. Yes, I have a problem with that. n/t

[Phlem]

42. Spot On!

-p

[treestar]

65. I imagine you don't have a top job as military strategist

This is a crime against humanity, not just the individuals.

Just let more people be gassed, that's a better way?

[Phlem]

13. Here you go

been hitting this a lot recently with all the unbelievable conclusions too. I'm telling ya, Obama can do no wrong with this bunch hook, line and Sinker!

-p

[Schema Thing]

18. On what planet stupid was Kerry bluffing?

Having Syria give up their chemical weapons has been the point of every single thing Obama and Kerry have been saying and doing for the past week.

People don't just suddenly wake up one morning and decide to become warmongers.

People on DU do, however, turn on good people like a pack of really stupid, vicious, wild dogs.

[YvonneCa]

31. Good points. I would only add that...

...Obama and Kerry have been working toward a diplomatic solution for Syria for much longer than a week.

[VanillaRhapsody]

33. very good point.

[Bolo Boffin]

47. Damn straight. The inspectors wouldn't even have been there without six months' work

from Obama. He can't win.

[Warren Stupidity]

45. actually the first intention was to lob a few cruise missiles at Syria to "send a message"

and then that morphed into a 90 day massacre of the Syrian army in order to re-arrange the balance of forces on the ground in order to effect regime change (which was actually the original intention of our support for the hideous aggregation of "rebel" forces to begin with before the whole sarin gas episode) because John Fucking McCain didn't think our war-dick was big enough for him to support this shit otherwise.

Now because Russia and Syria jumped on Kerry's "rhetorical" offer/blunder of a peaceful resolution via chem weapons control the whole fucking war is in jeopardy which is just a giant clusterfuck as far as the neocon wing of the kleptocracy is concerned.

Make no mistake, there is a whole mess of hair pulling and comb-licking going on.

[frylock]

48. ell ohh ell at "comb-licking"

[blm]

52. They always do. They have no sense of history, no realization that there are some

good guys who, though not perfect, will always be good guys.

All that hot, breathless rhetoric used to attack good people facing incredibly tough situations is.......expected.

[Cha]

70. Thank you, Schema Thing.

[markpkessinger]

80. The White House claimed Kerry's offer was merely "rhetorical" as soon as he made it . . .

. . . So it was either a bluff, or it was a lie. Take your pick.

[randome]

21. Getting the outcome we wanted is bad because it didn't happen the way you wanted?

How about this: it's a true statesman who knows when to stop pushing. Do you think a Republican would care about outcomes over ego?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[VanillaRhapsody]

24. I suggest none of them try to play poker...they would suck at it randome.

[SidDithers]

53. Exactly...

Sid

[blm]

55. Pretty sure it played out as well as was expected.

Including Russia's involvement. Context is everything.

Radio Free Europe:

August 10, 2013
Lavrov, Kerry 'Agree On Need' For Syria Peace Conference
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says he and U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry have agreed on the need to start a Syrian peace conference in Geneva as soon as possible.

Lavrov made the remarks after talks in Washington on August 9 with Kerry.

Lavrov said he and Kerry agreed they should meet again by the end of August to prepare for the proposed Geneva talks.

Kerry said Russia and the United States needed to find ways to work around their differences on Syria’s civil war, and to make progress on missile defense, Afghanistan, and nuclear disputes with Iran and North Korea.
>>>

I think Russia's high bravado promising to back up Syria was needed to pull Assad to the table.

[markpkessinger]

58. We haven't got the outcome we wanted . . .

. . .because the White House backed away from Kerry's offer almost as soon as he made it.

[Waiting For Everyman]

25. Putin BLINKED. Bigtime.

He blinked so hard he fell over himself backwards.

I'm glad and I think that was a smart move on his part, but it sure doesn't change who did the conceding. It shows how hard he was looking for a way out of his part in this. He clearly wants off of "team Assad" badly.

My guess is that he was offered a deal that he liked enough about the gas pipeline, and he's ready to move on.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

41. Team Assad. lololol.

[quinnox]

30. To a certain devoted group on DU, Obama always wins in all scenarios

What the reality is doesn't matter.

[VanillaRhapsody]

35. To a certain devoted group on DU, Obama always loses in all scenarios

what the reality is doesn't matter...

there I fixed that for ya!

[treestar]

61. Which is the odder of the two positions to take

and be a Democrat.

[VanillaRhapsody]

63. I know right?

still SMDH!

[sheshe2]

68. Nailed it!

[Peacetrain]

36. And to a certain devoted group on DU.. he can do nothing right

What the reality is doesn't matter.

Strange how that road goes both ways

[YvonneCa]

39. And all these devoted groups blame Kerry...

...for whatever it is.

[Peacetrain]

43. ROFL

I am not kidding with you.. someone actually put an op up about the size of his penis..That is pretty rough stuff

[YvonneCa]

74. SO glad I missed...

...that. It's been like grade school teasing around here.

[notadmblnd]

46. With the American people it is

99% of us do not want another war. If this crisis is resolved diplomatically, what would be the problem in your view?

[Ocelot]

50. We shouldn't gloat over this

Nothing's been resolved yet. We should just continue to press for it to end in a sane way (then maybe afterward initiate some petitions to get Kerry resigned).

[MisterP]

51. and if you don't agree you have "Obama derangement syndrome" and never acknowledge the good he does

[LittleBlue]

54. One of the most desperate things I've ever seen

You watch, they never really wanted war, only peace. The 8 dimensional chess game worked.

[HooptieWagon]

56. +100

Like who didn't see THAT coming...

[blm]

59. Laugh, Laugh.

August 10, 2013
Lavrov, Kerry 'Agree On Need' For Syria Peace Conference
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says he and U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry have agreed on the need to start a Syrian peace conference in Geneva as soon as possible.

Lavrov made the remarks after talks in Washington on August 9 with Kerry.

Lavrov said he and Kerry agreed they should meet again by the end of August to prepare for the proposed Geneva talks.

Kerry said Russia and the United States needed to find ways to work around their differences on Syria’s civil war, and to make progress on missile defense, Afghanistan, and nuclear disputes with Iran and North Korea.
>>>>

[LittleBlue]

62. Which never happened

Meanwhile back in reality, Susan Rice this morning said diplomacy efforts (the one you reference) had failed and strikes were the only solution left.

That was not one month ago, it was today.

[blm]

69. Yes, I hear everything that is being SAID, and I put it in the context

of what I know has been done, and what the figures involved might expect from their longterm efforts played out after a chemical attack.

I am pretty certain that Russia ramped up their rhetoric in response to Kerry and Obama's aggressive rhetoric to gain additional leverage over Assad.

[Iliyah]

57. Unbeknowst to the people who "don't like" Kerry

and Pres O, last week Kerry and the Israelis had an discussion about getting Assad to relinquish his stash of chemical weapons and therefore the discussion was already in talks, hmmmmmmmmmm.

Pres O and Pres Putin had talks as well.

[treestar]

60. Why is that idea upsetting you?

The idea of a Democratic President getting any credit, a good result, any praise whatsoever, any break from outlandish accusations whatsoever, etc.

[markpkessinger]

66. What good result?

The White House backed away from Kerry's offer as soon as he made it, saying it was just "rhetorical." What good result are you talking about?

[Yo_Mama]

64. If the reason why Obama is asking Congress to authorize force

is to stop the use of chemical weapons against people in Syria, how can it not be a win for Obama? And also for the people in Syria?

If the reason is other than stated, then of course it might not be, but your question seems to me to presume that Obama is lying. I think that is an unjustifiable slur. I am somewhat offended myself at it.

The bottom line is that the steps the Obama administration have taken have produced a highly favorable shift in circumstances for the people in Syria and countries surrounding, and I don't see how he can not get some credit for this.

Maybe not on Free Republic, on which forum the discovery that the president was excreting gold ingots every morning in order to diminish the national debt would be greeted by howls of horror over "heavy metal environmental contamination", but they are a minority. Most of us would be pleased to have elected the president who lays the golden eggs. "Damn!" we'd be thniking. "Eat some more bran! You da man!" And likewise, most of the country, which does support Obama's moral stance on this issue, is going to be very pleased that suddenly we have a seeming convergence on the issue among parties who were apparently adamantly opposed last week.

[bvar22]

67. Despite the delusions from the usuals,

...the World WILL see this as Putin winning the Stare Down with Obama,
and thwarting the US entry into the Civil War in Syria.

Wishing & Hoping and desperate attempts to frame this as a "WIN" for Obama isn't going to change that.

[Cali_Democrat]

71. All hail Vladimir The Great

Bow down before greatness when you see it gawd dammit!

He WON the stare down!

[bvar22]

84. You can Hail Vladimir if you want to.

I don't have any use for him,
and have never HAILED any politician.
I am just telling you what The WORLD will see,
and what YOU would see if is was Bush-the-Lesser had threatened WAR in Syria,
Putin said NO,
and Bush backed out.

You can play & splash in your little pool all you want to,
but that won't change what the World sees.

Hopefully, they WILL also see a less belligerent Obama who can see other "options" in dealing with Syria tomorrow night.
THAT is all that matters at this point.

I want this Chest Beating MADNESS STOPPED NOW.

[Iliyah]

72. RWers are already giving Putin the heads up

because we all know how they hate the President.

A win win for the Syrian people and a win win for Pres O.

[iandhr]

75. I don't think Kerry was bluffing.

[markpkessinger]

79. Then why did the White House claim his offer was only "rhetorical?" n/t

[iandhr]

83. More pressure.

More insensitive to make a deal.

[carolinayellowdog]

77. the whole winning-against-the-Russians business takes me back to the 1950s

I started first grade in 1959 by which time "the Russians" were solidly established as Enemy #1. Had always figured that whatever in the US psychology that had been obsessed with prevailing in international confrontations with Russia was long gone. Pushing 60, I figured nobody more than a generation younger would even be able to relate to the anti-Russian imperative at all. Except maybe in Rocky and Bullwinkle, which sends it up so beautifully that I still laugh out loud at reruns.

But damn, this Obama vs. Putin, competition vs. cooperation, no such thing as a win/win in a multilaterial world theme we've been seeing here lately takes me right back to that era. It is just a bunch of nostalgic boomers-and-older who are rooting on Kerry, hating on Snowden, etc. etc.-- and if not HOW THE HELL CAN YOUNG PEOPLE BUY INTO THIS SHIT?

The authoritarian mindset can only interpret cooperation in terms of competition and conflict-- it has to be about Obama deserving to win over Putin because he's a better man and we're a better country, rather than about what's best for Syria and the rest of the world. Russia has plenty of that machismo too but thank god they are playing the role of cunning wily opponent rather than dangerous threatening blowhard because we sure as hell don't need two countries playing that one at the same time.

[School Teacher]

78. Get Busy, People

Keep up the pressure on congress. AIPAC sent an army of lobbyists to congress today with deep pockets. In the time it took you to argue on this thread, you could have called a couple of reps. It is not over.

I mentioned the bizarre flip flopping of Kerry and the many different things he has said during the week. I told my reps to chill this whole thing down because it is a war based on hot air. Do they really care about chemical weapons? The were pretty quiet about white phosphorous in Falluja and Gaza.

Now Kerry is saying we have to go to war to show Iran we mean business......my god! Where are the adults?