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(28,751 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)We don't even have a goal or on objective in Syria. We'd just be shelling them as punishment.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)fly a drone up the ass of the Guy torturing and gassing kids.....
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)fly the drone up Assad's ass and any others that want to torture and gas kids!
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I see we are now arguing over the 'right and acceptable way' to kill kids over the 'the wrong and unacceptable way' to kill kids?
Have we really sunk this low?
Do you know the names of any of the victims we are supposedly so 'concerned about'?
Anything about their lives at all, how old they were even? A name, something to demonstrate that they are not just 'statistics' as an excuse for more war?
I believe the UN and other humanitarian groups there DO have names. Shouldn't we be interested in knowing something about them?
we are arguing over how to lead a nation.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)with Chemical weapons.
IF we were arguing over how to lead a nation, we would be discussing the prosecution of our OWN WAR CRIMINALS who slaughtered over one million people after LYING this country into war. Then we lead the world to, not just the nation, on how to be CONSISTENT regarding WAR CRIMES. How to prosecute them in a court of law so that the WHOLE WORLD gets to see the evidence against them. And in doing so, a warning would go out to anyone else who thought we the US, would MOVE FORWARD from WAR CRIMES, would have another think coming to them.
But we are not doing that. We have moved forward from War Crimes and are now trying to convince the world that we CARE ABOUT THEM.
The World is not buying it.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Perhaps that is not really a terrible thing in your view, but for most of us, that is equivalent.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)you mean our Government? I like to read that policy.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)he have no idea what US policy is.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)The FBI teaching torture techniques to those in other countries was not known policy before the leaks. The extent of the spying on Americans wasn't known, though we did all know they were spying. Covering up the deaths of innocent civilians wasn't known policy. Etc., etc.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)there has been a lot of speculative conjecture released but no PROOF...... geeez
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Where were the WMDs? South, east, southeast, north and northwest somewhat?
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)Assad did it. a few hold outs but we know who they are , if you know what i mean.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I hope you are never on a jury.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)And a lot of blood too.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)GOP with the Democrats.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)doesn't make it so.
Celefin
(532 posts)So no, that most certainly isn't the objective.
Taking out the chemical weapons isn't either as it can't be achieved this way.
Stopping the killing isn't either, as it won't and will probably only increase it.
'Punishment' is an incredibly stupid argument and almost certainly not the objective, though one might never know. Those 'punished' won't be the ones responsible for the CW use.
Here's a speculative thought on a possible objective:
Taking out Syrian air defenses and radar to give the Israeli airforce hassle-free airspace to strike if they were to deem it necessary.
That might be a viable military objective although it is, as I said, purely speculative.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)does not mean that delivering justice for his crimes against humanity with a drone is not a option.
Celefin
(532 posts)Your words, not Obama's.
We weren't talking options for delivering 'justice' (ignoring the crimes against humanity and need for justice is also an 'option', as is nuking Damascus); we were talking goals and objectives. Taking out Assad isn't the objective - and officially not even an option. We want the Assad regime to stay.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)but he has to go....!
Celefin
(532 posts)Still nothing from you on military objectives except putting words in Obama's/Kerry's mouth.
Oh well, carry on.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)what i think our objective should be
very narrow limited response like delivering Assad's retribution for his crimes against Humanity on drone up his ass. Then let them continue with their civil war.
There is a very old Liberal concept that Justice involves Retribution for Crimes of a heinous nature. .
No argument is valid for a liberal state without it!
Shit
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)for that remark.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)Do you think Justice can be achieved without retribution.?
If you do I would love to hear about it.
Justice and Retributionism are very old Liberal concepts!
There is far more at stake here than next years elections.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Do you think Justice is served by collateral damage?
Who is going to seek retribution on US for it?
OUR society seems to be happy to exist without justice or retribution for our OWN war criminals. Barack Obama just granted immunity to the war criminals from our most recent wars? Might that be because he seeks to establish a precedent for his successor regarding his OWN war crimes?
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)to say accidental collateral damage in War is the same crime as torturing and gassing your own people.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Give it a rest tough guy.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)does not call for your personal attack!
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)White Phosphorous on innocents most definitely should not be roaming around free. Remember the children in Abut Ghraib who were sodomized in front of their mothers? Seymour Hersch found it hard to even verbalize when he first reported it.
So when do we start the investigations and the trials and remove those monsters from the streets because most of them are behind this latest invasion of another ME country.
Last edited Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:15 PM - Edit history (1)
I must have missed the part were these heinous acts were a matter of official policy of our government. but I love to read them.
Sorry you may posted to the wrong thread. I have not called for an invasion of another ME Country.
insert "not"
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)get to all seven countries they intended to invade.
Why are you supporting the US invading 'another ME country'? Did you support the US invading Iraq also?
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)I left out a "not",,,,, have edited my post.....
no I did support the invasion of Iraq nor do I support the invasion of Syria,,,just for the record
sorry about eh late edit
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Do we even have confirmation as to whose ass needs a good droning?
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)called "due diligence". according to that I have a name for you ,,,, Assad!
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I'm quite embarrassed for you.
The due diligence required would be to verify our facts, collect our evidence and then take appropriate action like filing a brief with the International Court.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)"due Diligence" is also defined as the care that a reasonable person exercises to avoid harm to other persons or their property .
Assad is guilty of not exercising that care to make sure the WMD's were not used.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)torture and gas a few kids and US wants to make you leader disappear! geez
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)It wasn't too long ago when we renditioned prisoners to Syria for torture. Have you seen the pics of dead Iraqi children in Fallujah killed by white phosphorous? The hypocrisy is thick around here.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)please furnish a link where our government intentionally tortured and gassed children. There aint none.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But keep up with the "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" cries in your crusade to kill more kids.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)got a link to it?
Celefin
(532 posts)Here you go:
http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/middle-east-north-africa/318989-white-house-were-not-after-regime-change-in-syria
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/27/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE97K0EL20130827
(fourth paragraph)
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/white-house-congress-syria-95952.html
(paragraph eight)
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)"no intent of regime changes" does not mean the same thing as Assad will not be harmed.
all your link only mention regime change nothing about he latter .
words have meanings albeit at times, ambiguous.
Celefin
(532 posts)Fairly obvious, I would think. You asked for links, I provided them.
When you remove a strongman with absolute control you can be absolutely certain that there will be no smooth transition of power. Remove the head of the regime = shatter the regime.
Could you show me an example that proves the opposite? If so, please do.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)I am not interested in fighting in their civil war, or any smooooooth transition of power. I am interested in delivering Assad's retribution for his Crimes against Humanity, period. After that is delivered , they can go back to fighting their civil war, all the time knowing that if they commit crimes against humanity , they will pay the Price of Retribution, quickly!
The Concept of Retribution as a integral part of Justice is a very old Liberal Idea. And the Argument can be made that there can no be any liberal state without it!
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)uhnope
(6,419 posts)which most politically aware adults know about. Try to understand that because Bush was a war criminal in Iraq doesn't mean that all use of military force is going to be wrong.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)Assad wants an investigation.
We're gathering a lynch mob.
But, oh yeah, we're the Adults.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)There are five nations, Syria included, that are not signatories of the CW Conventions.
Until that convention has 100% membership, do not pretend it is 'global'. By definition, it cannot be.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Well, except the bodies are, in a way, more disturbing, being apparently ok, yet dead the same.
I don't split philosophical hairs. I correct errors. Syria is not a signatory, the ban is not worldwide. Period.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)The whole "Bush was wrong, but Obama is right" mentality. It makes us look like Rethuglicans.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)uhnope
(6,419 posts)CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)I see a different situation being addressed by a far different President than his predecessor.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)"We have the right to militarily intervene in the affairs of another country that does not threaten us, but violates our standards of what is right and wrong, even though we were the only country to ever use nuclear weapons in any aggressive use."
That make it a little clearer for you?
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)in the sentence, and you'll have something the tea partiers say.
If it was wrong for Bush (and with a semi-international coalition, to boot), it's wrong for Obama, especially if he says he's going to do it even if Congress doesn't rubber-stamp the idea.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)answered
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)"Try to understand that because Bush was a war criminal in Iraq doesn't mean that all use of military force is going to be wrong."
If that doesn't sound like Bush was wrong but Obama is right, then I need some reading comprehension lessons. Bush managed to get other nations involved in the mistake that was Iraq, who's going along with Obama on this? It might not even be our Congress, but he says he'll do it anyway.
Answered, yes, and UN resolutions and international courts can give that answer. At least they should do so before the President strikes unilaterally.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons...We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have.
~George W. Bush, October 5, 2002
The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas.
We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States. The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his nuclear mujahideen - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons.
~George W. Bush, October 7, 2002
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)No way they could ever get inside our heads.
BB1
(798 posts)but already I can't figure out what's going on. What has gotten into the American public? Why bomb another country back to the Middle Ages? Who is going to be 'taught a lesson'? What's going to be the outcome? How many children are going to die?
Sure, we have our own problems here in Europe. But even for us, this is a no-brainer. Let's not do this.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)A very few have enough self confidence to challenge the non-stop brain washing.
But only a few.
But when things turn to hell, EVERYONE tells how they were never fooled.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Anyone who dies must deserve it, right? I mean, God must not like them very much if they get killed by a righteous American bomb.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)about the kids he tortured and gassed
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)any retribution for crimes against humanity. heh? geez!
Celefin
(532 posts)A pointless act of war will not achieve that objective, something a vast majority here happen to agree on.
to where people here are calling for Assad to be punished for his Crimes ..... you will find very few.
Celefin
(532 posts)It seems you aren't overly keen on reading any supplied links anyway; or did you actually have a look at the links provided in post 42?
Or maybe you just didn't want to try and refute those.
Refusing to debate arguments, comment on links when requested, post analysis or evidence of actual thought on a matter instead of countless one-liners is very much trolling IMO.
I'll leave you in peace from now on, sorry to bother you.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)but I fail to see how it my failure. You made the claims without any support, which means i have no need to rebut your claims with source until you prove them. Reasoned debate requires for you to support your premises. I am also sorry your consider everybody that does not agree with you to be a troll.
Celefin
(532 posts)Reasoned debate also requires you to stay on topic and not to move the goalposts.
>>>
I am also sorry your consider everybody that does not agree with you to be a troll.
<<<
*sigh* Oh please.
I rest my case - a good day to you.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)btw,,, you go back and reread the thread ,, you will see it was no I who changed the topic
shenmue
(38,506 posts)What, did we become the only country in the world that has to be perfect before it's allowed to act? You forget that every other country has been involved in various wars as well. Strangely, you don't have the same standard for them.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)You don't really want to bring up the logic of double standards here, do you?
Who else claims the right to "regime change" and "punishment bomb" all over the world?
Who else says they can drone a Hellfire on the head of anyone, anywhere, any time?
If anyone else announced they were going to "fix" Syria or start bombing possible militants in Pakistan, we'd be screaming bloody murder.