France seeks Syria strike while treating her citizens like Adults

[cthulu2016]

France, which was skeptical on US claims about Iraq, has —based on its own analysis— concluded that Syrian regime forces did, in fact, launch a massive nerve gas attack on Damascus suburbs held by opposition units.

Somehow France managed to do this while 1) using a conservative death toll estimate, and 2) not yelling "Hitler, Hitler, Hitler" and stomping their feet.

I am no way convinced that a strike would make the world a better place, but if I were to listen to such an argument I would find the French argument more persuasive than the overwrought, insulting, argument our domestic leaders seem to think we deserve. The "Hitler is hiding in your garage" sort of argument we were handed throughout the Bush regime is old hat and at this point could only appeal to a hypothetical "Mor Irak, Pleaz" crowd.

If the case is strong then make that case Obama-style, not Bush-style.

PARIS (AP) — A French intelligence report on Monday alleged that the Syrian regime launched an attack on Aug. 21 that involved a "massive use of chemical agents" and could carry out similar strikes in the future.

The government, on its Web site, published a 9-page intelligence synopsis about Syria's chemical weapons program that found that at least 281 deaths could be attributed to the attack in rebel-held areas outside Damascus. The analysis based that count in part on dozens of videos culled by French intelligence services.

The extract said "the analysis of intelligence that we possess today leads us to estimate that on Aug. 21, 2013, the Syrian regime launched an attack on some areas of the Damascus suburbs held by opposition units, bringing together conventional means and the massive use of chemical agents."

President Francois Hollande has backed a call from President Barack Obama for a military strike against Syrian President Bashar Assad's government in retaliation for the chemical attack...

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/french-set-release-intelligence-syria

[BainsBane]

1. Did Obama yell Hitler?

[Scootaloo]

7. Kerry keeps making Nazi references.

Comparing Assad to Hitler, telling Congress they face a "Munich moment," etc.

[BainsBane]

10. I see

that's unfortunate.

[Scootaloo]

11. It's predictable, is what it is

Everyone's always "the next Hitler" when we want to blow them up.

1) It conjures the image of a "good war"
2) It makes the enemy seem more powerful and thus more dangerous
3) it's always an oblique reference to the Holocaust, sure to rile up an unthinking emotional response.

I think it might also have something to do with the narrowing of the intellectual spectrum of political discussion in the US. Every scandal is watergate, every war is Vietnam, every enemy is Hitler, etc.

[BainsBane]

12. That's all true. I am sick to death of gate after everything.

[HardTimes99]

21. The Chamberlain in his Munich moment is Obama who continues to negotiate with

the fascistic McCain and Graham, never having learned the lesson given to us by that crusty old Tory racist Churchill that one never negotiates with fascists.

[BOG PERSON]

2. i wonder what syria's gender is

[MineralMan]

3. It is feminine in French.

"La Syrie." Every noun in French has gender, even if it is a neutral gender. France has a long history with La Syrie.

[BOG PERSON]

6. the thread title is in english

[MineralMan]

9. So it is. That you noticed is a mark of your intelligence.

In French, however, which is the language used in France, Syria has the feminine gender in use. When things are translated, it's common to use the pronouns used in the original. Besides countries usually have feminine gender. The motherland and all that.

I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say, though.

[BOG PERSON]

18. i just thought it was unusual

[cthulu2016]

5. Female.

To me, Germany was female even while calling itself The Fatherland.

The tradition of using feminine pronouns for nations and ships is antique (as am I, I suppose), but I see no great harm in its employment.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Hollande hasn't convinced the French people.

Maybe Obama should send Kerry to Paris to advertise his war.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/31/france-syria-poll_n_3847660.html

France Against Syria Strike And Distrusting Of Hollande, Poll Says - Reuters

PARIS, Aug 31 (Reuters) - Most French people do not want France to take part in military action on Syria and most do not trust French President Francois Hollande to do so, a poll showed on Saturday.

The United States said on Friday it would punish Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's government for a chemical attack that it says killed more than 1,400 people in Damascus last week, and Hollande said Britain's parliamentary vote against military strikes would not affect France's own actions.

The BVA poll released by Le Parisien-Aujourd'hui en France, showed 64 percent of respondents opposed military action, 58 percent did not trust Hollande to conduct it, and 35 percent feared it could "set the entire region (Middle East) ablaze".

Two other opinion polls published this week, and carried out after the gas attack, indicated lukewarm support among French voters for military intervention in Syria

[KittyWampus]

8. apparently you haven't read Der Spiegel yet. Assad grows desperate. A catastrophe is quite possible.

Yet, it is perhaps irrelevant who gave the order since the entire Syrian leadership is reportedly afraid that the defense lines will collapse. These fears have been fanned by a number of developments over the past few weeks: the unauthorized withdrawal of previously Assad-loyal militias to their Alawite villages; the feared rebel offensive; the declining morale of the regular troops; and the rising losses without military victories to show for them.

The poison gas attack was probably carried out by the 4th division of Assad's army. Experts and defectors agree that this is the only unit that possesses launching devices for chemical weapons. Immediately following the chemical attack, it shelled rebel positions with conventional artillery -- but was unable to take a single location.

Instead, the division lost at least seven tanks in the Damascus neighborhood of Harasta alone. A rebel video provides an insight into the lack of personnel among the elite division: Two crew members flee a burning tank -- but they are wearing no uniforms, no helmets and no radio gear. Shabiha militia members have apparently been forced to fill the gaps in the ranks of the army.

The images are highly significant and don't correspond with reports that Assad has strengthened his military position. Military experts and intelligence agents had been circulating this theory for months, ever since the battle for control of the small town of Qusayr in early summer. Under the leadership of over 1,000 fighters from the Shiite Hezbollah militia from Lebanon, Assad's troops were able to recapture Qusayr.


Snip
Nevertheless, the myth of a military turning point in the regime's favor has persisted since June. This has also hampered the search for motives for the poison gas attack: Many observers wondered why Assad should use chemical weapons if he is winning the war already. In actual fact, the situation has been difficult for the regime's troops for quite some time now. Since the spring of 2012, many of the army's positions have only been supplied from the air because all land routes are under the control the rebels.

[MannyGoldstein]

16. Sadly, a catastrophe is guaranteed

Which catastrophe is the only question.

[KittyWampus]

17. PLEASE read the article. And research how many refugees are already flooded into Jordan,Turkey etc

It's already a humanitarian crisis. Now imagine what happens when Assad's forces use chemical weapons again.

The 2 million refugees will multiply exponentially and the surrounding countries will implode as well.

[GeorgeGist]

20. A link would be appreciated.

[KittyWampus]

22. http://www.spiegel.de >>>>>

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/situation-in-syria-deteriorates-as-west-looks-for-answers-a-919733-2.html

[Catherina]

13. I read the report, it's the same bullshit we got

No surprise either because Hollande was beating the drums of war earlier and louder than any other international leader this year. It's the same bullshit in better wrapping paper.

"Analysis of open source materials.... And Intelligence from our partners...."

The French people are going to stop reading right there.

[KittyWampus]

15. You seem to like Der Spiegel when it reports on the NSA- here you go:

This is the second and last time I will post in this thread so as not to get alerted on as spamming-

Yet, it is perhaps irrelevant who gave the order since the entire Syrian leadership is reportedly afraid that the defense lines will collapse. These fears have been fanned by a number of developments over the past few weeks: the unauthorized withdrawal of previously Assad-loyal militias to their Alawite villages; the feared rebel offensive; the declining morale of the regular troops; and the rising losses without military victories to show for them.

The poison gas attack was probably carried out by the 4th division of Assad's army. Experts and defectors agree that this is the only unit that possesses launching devices for chemical weapons. Immediately following the chemical attack, it shelled rebel positions with conventional artillery -- but was unable to take a single location.

Instead, the division lost at least seven tanks in the Damascus neighborhood of Harasta alone. A rebel video provides an insight into the lack of personnel among the elite division: Two crew members flee a burning tank -- but they are wearing no uniforms, no helmets and no radio gear. Shabiha militia members have apparently been forced to fill the gaps in the ranks of the army.

The images are highly significant and don't correspond with reports that Assad has strengthened his military position. Military experts and intelligence agents had been circulating this theory for months, ever since the battle for control of the small town of Qusayr in early summer. Under the leadership of over 1,000 fighters from the Shiite Hezbollah militia from Lebanon, Assad's troops were able to recapture Qusayr.


Snip
Nevertheless, the myth of a military turning point in the regime's favor has persisted since June. This has also hampered the search for motives for the poison gas attack: Many observers wondered why Assad should use chemical weapons if he is winning the war already. In actual fact, the situation has been difficult for the regime's troops for quite some time now. Since the spring of 2012, many of the army's positions have only been supplied from the air because all land routes are under the control the rebels.

[libdem4life]

14. Looks like Hollande may have to actually ask his people/Parliament, as well?

Who knew these powerful, Western Democracies still have to act like Democracies...that is, asking/listening to the people through those who represent them.

I don't get why this is so hard for Obama and now Hollande. They flap at the mouth first...then, oh snap, Parliament/Congress.

Without that, we're just Authoritarian Pots calling the Authoritarian Kettles black. Of course there is a difference, but it's going in the wrong, wrong, wrong direction.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/french-parliament-vote-syria-96140.html

[99th_Monkey]

19. It's rather like being able to ride a bike and chew gum at the same time.

It can be done. i.e. taking a position, while also respecting the
intelligence and wisdom of the citizenry.