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HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:56 AM Feb 2012

"Let tubal pregnancy rupture" - Personhood Initiative

They say it is rare that women will die after ruptures with modern medicine. Then they quote statistics. It is NEVER justified to kill the baby to save the mother's life. In fact, ectopics can and do survive!!!!!!! They quote one instance where an tubal pregnancy ruptured and then the embryo implanted (again?) someplace else and was carried for a full 9 months!!!!! What did it do? Swim around in all that blood looking for a new "home"? SUPER BABY!!!!!!

Any woman should be scared shitless by the insanity of these people. A woman's life mean's NOTHING to them.


http://www.personhoodinitiative.com/ectopic-personhood.html

49 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"Let tubal pregnancy rupture" - Personhood Initiative (Original Post) HockeyMom Feb 2012 OP
Jesus. BlueIris Feb 2012 #1
My daughter lives in Mississippi and she was scared shitless rurallib Feb 2012 #2
my wife had an ectopic rupture rdking647 Feb 2012 #3
my sister did as well- Bluerthanblue Feb 2012 #10
I had one and was out of town so I called my friend who is a nurse EFerrari Feb 2012 #28
I did that once too... Fumesucker Feb 2012 #18
Republicans (all of them who stand on the Presidential Primary stage) are monsters. gordianot Feb 2012 #4
"Ectopic personhood"? Lord, save me from your followers. Brickbat Feb 2012 #5
My daughter-in-law almost bled out when her tubal pregnancy ruptured. Arkansas Granny Feb 2012 #6
Logical explanation HockeyMom Feb 2012 #7
Be honest. They don't care about those babies, either. aquart Feb 2012 #8
This whole thing is getting just plain insane. leftyladyfrommo Feb 2012 #9
I almost lost one of my best friends that way Warpy Feb 2012 #11
Catholic doctrine permits surgically fixing an ectopic pregnancy Yo_Mama Feb 2012 #23
Is that a decree from the Vatican? New Yawker Feb 2012 #49
Note that studies are cited for ectoptic pregnancy ruptures but anecdotes are cited for survival of yellowcanine Feb 2012 #12
pregnancy is ALWAYS a life threatening experience. mopinko Feb 2012 #13
My doctor didn't want to put me in a Catholic hospital HockeyMom Feb 2012 #14
The really sad fact in our area is that the best infant care facility is in a Catholic hospital and jwirr Feb 2012 #19
I'd have to say there are Catholic hospitals and Catholic hospitals! hedgehog Feb 2012 #36
Where I went was a very big Catholic Hospital in NYC HockeyMom Feb 2012 #41
Here's the deal - often the theologians hedgehog Feb 2012 #43
Unbelievable. So appalling... nt stevenleser Feb 2012 #15
WHY doesn't the living BREATHING person incubating pansypoo53219 Feb 2012 #16
Another damned Catholic doctrine being pushed down our throats. Enough tell the Pope to get out jwirr Feb 2012 #17
Get the damn pope out of my uterus lapislzi Feb 2012 #20
LOL So true. jwirr Feb 2012 #22
It is not a Catholic doctrine Yo_Mama Feb 2012 #24
Law 101 You have the right of self-defense HockeyMom Feb 2012 #27
That is a SUPERB point, and might make a really good legal argument Remember Me Feb 2012 #39
We would never make it compulsory for a father Tsiyu Feb 2012 #47
So they have come up with a few exceptions just like with anullments of marriage. In and ectopic jwirr Feb 2012 #32
Complete insanity. WTF??? Many women survive an ectopic pregnancy, but only with prompt treatment. NC_Nurse Feb 2012 #21
Add me to the list felix_numinous Feb 2012 #25
Me too HeiressofBickworth Feb 2012 #26
Not to mention - if the mother survives a ruptured fallopian tube, hedgehog Feb 2012 #34
Yes, that's what happened in my case HeiressofBickworth Feb 2012 #37
I was very fortunate to have another child 2 years almost to the day later HockeyMom Feb 2012 #42
I already had one child HeiressofBickworth Feb 2012 #44
My older daughter is 33 now HockeyMom Feb 2012 #46
At what age does a woman become a person? undeterred Feb 2012 #29
Perhaps with menopause I am no longer sure The empressof all Feb 2012 #30
Exactly. EFerrari Feb 2012 #31
Ron Paul Should At Least Know Better AnnieBW Feb 2012 #33
Remember Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery"? jmowreader Feb 2012 #35
What was your first clue? Remember Me Feb 2012 #38
I love that they used this quote: REP Feb 2012 #40
I gave these people a piece of mind. Boudica the Lyoness Feb 2012 #45
I want to know - where is a safe haven? Tsiyu Feb 2012 #48

BlueIris

(29,135 posts)
1. Jesus.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:07 AM
Feb 2012

That is insane. That is by far the most extreme anti-choice sentiment I've read in years.

Someone close to me had two tubal pregnancies last year. Either could have killed her. She had enough problems with incompetent doctors and a FUBARed SoCal health system. Can't imagine what would have happened if these zealots had the upper hand.

rurallib

(62,346 posts)
2. My daughter lives in Mississippi and she was scared shitless
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:09 AM
Feb 2012

when that damn thing was on their ballot.
She and hubby want another child, but not under those circumstances.

 

rdking647

(5,113 posts)
3. my wife had an ectopic rupture
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:11 AM
Feb 2012

ill never forget driving like a madman thru town to get her to the hospital.

fuck the personhood inititiative.
those people are dangerous and should be arrested for involuntary manslaughter due to their reckless actions

Bluerthanblue

(13,669 posts)
10. my sister did as well-
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:40 AM
Feb 2012

she actually had three. (it is possible, though it came as an incredible surprise to us).

The first was completely out of the blue, she didn't even know she was pregnant, lived by herself in an apartment and if it hadn't been for a neighbor hearing her fall as she fainted from blood loss, she would have died.

To deny the reality that this is a deadly situation for a woman is absurd. The idea of making a woman wait until the tube ruptures and she is hemmoraging is like saying- well, wait till your appendex actually ruptures before operating. ?!! After all, sometimes an inflamed appendex quiets down for awhile.

I'm sorry to hear about what you and your wife went through. It's a really scary and sad experience.

EFerrari

(163,986 posts)
28. I had one and was out of town so I called my friend who is a nurse
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:04 PM
Feb 2012

to ask her if it could wait until we got home. She said, if it ruptures you have minutes to get help before you bleed to death.

These people are insane.

gordianot

(15,226 posts)
4. Republicans (all of them who stand on the Presidential Primary stage) are monsters.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:24 AM
Feb 2012

Lately they focus on women but they also target the elderly, children, religious beliefs, political affiliation, race, poor, education (etc. etc.). Of all the groups they target it is women they pose the most immediate real physical threat. My daughter explained this to me over the weekend.

Arkansas Granny

(31,483 posts)
6. My daughter-in-law almost bled out when her tubal pregnancy ruptured.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:29 AM
Feb 2012

I don't think forcing a woman to risk her life over the slight possibility that a tiny embryo might somehow reimplant (which I find very unlikely) is justified. If she is willing to take the risk, that's her decision, but she is the one who should make that choice and no one else.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
7. Logical explanation
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:33 AM
Feb 2012

It was a TWIN pregnancy. One twin implanted in the fallopian tube, but the other didn't, and survived.

aquart

(69,014 posts)
8. Be honest. They don't care about those babies, either.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:33 AM
Feb 2012

My grandmother nearly died from an ectopic pregnancy. My mom had full eclampsia. They asked my dad if he wanted to save the baby or the mother. He went with the mother. Personhood law wouldn't even ask, I guess. In which case I would never have been born. Or my sister.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,816 posts)
9. This whole thing is getting just plain insane.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:38 AM
Feb 2012

It's like we have just stepped back in time about a hundred years. It's too scary.

I'm hoping this whole issue will simply boomerang back on the Republicans.

Warpy

(110,913 posts)
11. I almost lost one of my best friends that way
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 11:49 AM
Feb 2012

Fortunately, she lived a mile from a real hospital, not one of those Catholic horror shows, and she got prompt treatment and survived. They had to pour blood into her for three days, even at that.

Medical care should never be decided by politicians and especially by religious patriarchs. They want us all to have the status of cattle with just that many rights.

Religious patriarchs are my deadly enemy. If you have a mother, sisters, wife or daughter, they are yours, too.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
23. Catholic doctrine permits surgically fixing an ectopic pregnancy
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:14 PM
Feb 2012

I think the doctrine says that since the purpose of the procedure is to save the mother's life and not to kill the fetus (unintended side effect) that it is not murder.

Here's a forum discussion:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1043

So don't blame the Catholics for this one.

yellowcanine

(35,692 posts)
12. Note that studies are cited for ectoptic pregnancy ruptures but anecdotes are cited for survival of
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:01 PM
Feb 2012

infants from an ectopic pregnancy. From this article we have no way of knowing the survival chances for an infant when ectopic pregnancies are allowed to proceed. A careless reader might not catch this. Without comparing survival chances of infants with survival chances for the mother it is impossible to make a reasonable assessment of risks. It is time for lawmakers to quit trying to do medical research or practice gynecology and obstetrics.

mopinko

(69,806 posts)
13. pregnancy is ALWAYS a life threatening experience.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:07 PM
Feb 2012

any pregnancy can end with a dead woman. these clowns just cannot get that through their heads. men cannot be required to give a pint of blood. but women can be drafted in service to a zygote to risk their lives.

i can't believe we are back here.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
14. My doctor didn't want to put me in a Catholic hospital
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:17 PM
Feb 2012

but they didn't have a bed in the other hospital. It was a complete nightmare. No sonogram, no IV, no BP monitoring but a PREGNANCY test! "We don't do abortions here". My doctor couldn't get there immediately but gave orders for these things and for these things to be done on the hour. When he got to the hospital, he ran SCREAMING down the halls at the staff. My HUSBAND also ran screaming down the halls telling them to do SOMETHING for me. It was horrible.

I had so much internal bleeding they were amazed that I didn't go into a coma. I was in the operating room for over 3 hours and my doctor said if I can been older he would have done a complete hysterectomy. One good caring Catholic intern joked, right at my bed, that it took 20 minutes just to find my bladder. Yeah, ha, ha, ha.

Then to add insult to injury they sent a PRIEST to talk to me. "I know you are bitter about losing your baby, but don't blame God". WHAT???? Bitter about losing my baby? I was bitter about almost losing MY LIFE. Blame God? Oh, no. I blame this CATHOLIC HOSPITAL STAFF for almost KILLING ME. He gave me a dirty look and walked out in a huff.

Dangerous, dangerous religious hacks. DO NOT let the Catholic Church define health care for women. While I parted company with this church as a teenager, THIS was the icing on the cake.



jwirr

(39,215 posts)
19. The really sad fact in our area is that the best infant care facility is in a Catholic hospital and
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:20 PM
Feb 2012

that means that pregnant women who are having troubled pregnancies are almost always sent there. One thing though - I don't think we have a very high mortality rate here for child birth deaths so maybe they are not following this rule.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
36. I'd have to say there are Catholic hospitals and Catholic hospitals!
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 12:37 AM
Feb 2012

The bishops would like everyone to believe that all Catholic hospitals follow identical procedures and standards, but that simply isn't so! My wild ass guess is that what goes on in a hospital depends on high subservient the sisters were to the bishop.

From some of the stories I've read here on DU, non-Catholic hospitals in some cities had policies just as bad.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
41. Where I went was a very big Catholic Hospital in NYC
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 03:27 PM
Feb 2012

They didn't know what their church's teachings were? My feeling was that they didn't WANT to know that it was an ectopic. Why NO SONOGRAM?

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
43. Here's the deal - often the theologians
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 04:44 PM
Feb 2012

will say one thing - for example that taking car of an endoscopic pregnancy isn't technically an abortion. The treatment is removal of all or part of the Fallopian tube, and the fact that the embryo is removed in the process is taken as a side effect. Many bishops, (whom I suspect haven't opened a book since seminary!) will insist that any action that results in the loss of the embryo is an abortion and therefore forbidden. So, do you accept as Church teaching the first view, which dates back at least as far as when my mother trained as a nurse in a Catholic hospital c. 1950, or the second view promulgated by current authoritarians?

Quite seriously, it is a topic of hot debate within the Church as to how much authority the bishops have to declare what the teaching are. Conservatives say Church teachings are determined by the Bishops and ultimately the Pope. Liberals prefer a consensus view developed by theologians and the faithful.

Again, I suspect that the policies in any given Catholic hospital will vary depending on the history of that particular hospital. I'm not defending the hospital that gave you such poor treatment. I'm saying that it is not what I would expect from the Catholic hospitals I am familiar with.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
17. Another damned Catholic doctrine being pushed down our throats. Enough tell the Pope to get out
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:17 PM
Feb 2012

of our bedrooms.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
24. It is not a Catholic doctrine
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:19 PM
Feb 2012

Seriously, Catholic doctrine permits the surgical fix for ectopic pregnancies under the principal of double effect, which I do not understand but which is explained in this forum as:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1043

Just so people understand the principle of double effect, I will list the criteria. The principle is that you MUST satisfy ALL four conditions.

1. The act must be good or indifferent in itself.
2. The good the agent intends must not be obtained by means of evil.
3. The evil effect must not be intended for itself but only permitted.
4. There must be a proportionately grave reason for permitting the evil effect to occur.

Removing only the unborn child does not satisfy criteria #1.
 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
27. Law 101 You have the right of self-defense
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:02 PM
Feb 2012

If your life is threatened by an attacker, you have the right to use deadly force to protect and preserve you own life. It doesn't matter if that person is a adult with a weapon, an incompetent adult, or even a child, or "person" embryo. You are not required under law to give up your life for anyone else.

 

Remember Me

(1,532 posts)
39. That is a SUPERB point, and might make a really good legal argument
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 01:19 AM
Feb 2012

I'm thinking (hoping) -- 'cause otherwise, those fools think it's okay to deprive adult women of their OWN personhood in the rush to award that status to a few cells.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
47. We would never make it compulsory for a father
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 10:52 PM
Feb 2012


to donate a kidney or heart or lung to a child with organ failure.

A parent may choose to donate an organ to a child to save the child's life.

But we do not compel it.



It's a privilege to get help to stay alive if you are an adult.


















jwirr

(39,215 posts)
32. So they have come up with a few exceptions just like with anullments of marriage. In and ectopic
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:51 PM
Feb 2012

pregnancy the fetus is not going to live so they make it an exception. An easy decision. Also doctrine is not necessarily what is practiced just what is the standing law re the church.

NC_Nurse

(11,646 posts)
21. Complete insanity. WTF??? Many women survive an ectopic pregnancy, but only with prompt treatment.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 05:30 PM
Feb 2012

What is WRONG with these people?

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
25. Add me to the list
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 09:19 PM
Feb 2012

of people who would be dead from an ectopic rupture had I not had access to emergency surgery.

I know this claim that ectopics are rarely dangerous to be a lie--anyone in health care knows this.

Denial of adequate healthcare is what is dangerous!! These ignorant and regressive policies are dangerous!! This is what happens when adequate health education is lacking--people fall for these lies.

HeiressofBickworth

(2,682 posts)
26. Me too
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:00 PM
Feb 2012

I've written about it on other posts. When they rely on the idea that some ectopic pregnancies cure themselves, they omit one factor. Once that tube has ruptured, without medical intervention it's all over for the host/mother in about 15 minutes. And there is no way to tell before rupture if this is the one in a million that might survive. I fully appreciate that there can be differences of opinions on abortion, but removing an ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion. That cluster of cells which will inevitably rupture the tube will die either way -- on its own or with the death of the host/mother. The question is will the mother needlessly die with it. It shows, once again and in greater degree, that right-wingers are willing to sacrifice my life and yours on the alter of getting more votes from the crazy fringe.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
34. Not to mention - if the mother survives a ruptured fallopian tube,
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 12:31 AM
Feb 2012

her fertility is permanently damaged. So the possibility exists that a woman who very much wanted a child will not only lose one chance at pregnancy but may have trouble ever bearing a child!

HeiressofBickworth

(2,682 posts)
37. Yes, that's what happened in my case
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 12:42 AM
Feb 2012

My husband and I wanted to have a child. After a couple of months, I started having severe pains on one side that sent me to the hospital. It was there I found out two things: I was finally pregnant and it was ectopic and had to be removed immediately because the tube burst. The conditions that existed on the one side which caused the ectopic pregnancy also existed on the other side. I had repair work done but was never able to conceive again. But, hey, I LIVED through the experience. No addle-headed law, doctor or hospital prevented me from getting the life-saving medical attention I needed.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
42. I was very fortunate to have another child 2 years almost to the day later
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 03:35 PM
Feb 2012

My brother-in-law's wife had a rupture also, but could never conceive again. My doctor did tell me that once you have one tubal pregnancy, your odds increase that you will have another. He said in my case, since I already had a daughter before this happened, it was a good possibility that my other tube was fine. I guess it was.

What these idiots, like that hospital staff, canot understand is that there are married women having these pregnancies who actually WANTED to have that baby. What ANY woman does not want is to lose her life for NOTHING. Doomed, dead baby is no reason to die, and leave your other children without a mother.

HeiressofBickworth

(2,682 posts)
44. I already had one child
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 07:14 PM
Feb 2012

this would have been my second. At least I still have my one child and more importantly, she had a mother during her developing years (she's now 44).

When used as an exception listed in the proposed laws, this is what "saving the life of the mother" means. Unfortunately, there have been a couple of states that have specifically eliminated the exception meaning that if the mother's life is in danger, tough shit.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
46. My older daughter is 33 now
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 08:40 PM
Feb 2012

She has told me she can remember that day I went into the hospital. Screw your stupid "Mommy don't kill me" probirth retoric. I heard from a fully living, breathing 3 year old, "Mommy, Mommy please DON'T DIE". You hear that from your fully born child, do you think you care about a 5 week old embryo in your fallopian tube? My LIVING DAUGHTER made me fight for my life, and hers.

I would have very willingly given up my life for her, but a doomed, dying, dead 5 week old embyro? No way, no shape, no how. My living and breathing husband and child meant far, far more to me.

The empressof all

(29,098 posts)
30. Perhaps with menopause I am no longer sure
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 10:15 PM
Feb 2012

But as long as we are fertile we are merely walking wombs to these insane mysogonist hypocritical republican idiots.

AnnieBW

(10,350 posts)
33. Ron Paul Should At Least Know Better
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 12:24 AM
Feb 2012

He's a fucking OB/GYN. I'm sure that he's had to deal with an ectopic pregnancy at least once in his medical practice. WTF did he do when he had a patient that had an ectopic? Tell her that he couldn't operate because that bunch of cells that was killing her was a baby?

jmowreader

(50,453 posts)
35. Remember Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery"?
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 12:36 AM
Feb 2012

If the Republicans have their way, that's what pregnancy will be like.

REP

(21,691 posts)
40. I love that they used this quote:
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 02:05 AM
Feb 2012
Surgeon General C. Everett Koop answered the dilemma in this way: “Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my thirty-six years in pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother's life.”


As so many others have noted, Koop was unlikely to many cases of any types of pregnancy as a pediatric surgeon.

I read several articles from that site. It was hilarious, in the way that much of Kafka is funny.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
48. I want to know - where is a safe haven?
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 11:07 PM
Feb 2012


Where can I convince my daughter to go if she becomes pregnant?

It makes me so angry that we need to fight this medieval dogma all over again.



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