Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

1-Old-Man

(2,667 posts)
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 11:31 AM Jul 2013

I have a question about the Keystone Pipeline that perplexes me

Just where will the US receive major benefit from allowing a Canadian firm to ship its tar sands across our country to be shipped out to the world market? I can see where building the pipeline will create a relatively small number of jobs for a short time, and I guess that's a plus. Then there will be some refinery jobs I suppose, but refineries operate on a stunningly low number of workers so there isn't much benefit there. Same thing with the port operations that will ship the finished product off our shores, very few people are employed in loading oil onto ships.

So what's in it for us? Well, we get all the risk associated with moving a corrosive, erosive, poisonous, sludge over thousands of miles of country including the very great potential for polluting one of our major acquifers while the Canadians get all the profit, that much I understand. But what is it in the project that would even begin to suggest that President Obama should, ultimately, approve it? It appears that Canada gets all the profit, the US gets all the risk, and the rest of the world gets all the oil.

11 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
1. How much of it will be shipped out to world markets?
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 11:38 AM
Jul 2013

If that is the chief goal why not build it across Canada to ports on the East and West coasts? In any case, that oil is already being shipped to points in the U.S. by rail.

I oppose Keystone, but I don't think anything will stop the extraction of that oil or the shipping of it.

1-Old-Man

(2,667 posts)
4. I have seen it reported that the Canadians refused to allow it to be piped to their own west coast
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 11:46 AM
Jul 2013

I do not know the mechanism by which it was rejected but I seem to recall a discussion (Cspan) in which it was said that the Canadians had "voted" against a pipeline across their own lands to the Pacific. According to that discussion, and my fleeting memory of it, the Keystone Pipeline was a second choice.

Could be wrong, my memory is not the best.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
6. There are some mountains in the way from where it is being mined and the West coast.
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 12:03 PM
Jul 2013

Can't go over them. Going through is wildly way too expensive.
The East coast of Canada for reliable shipping is farther than down to Texas. Plus Canada does not want to build any more refineries.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
8. No, British Columbians recently voted (de facto) for the pipeline
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 12:34 PM
Jul 2013

The Liberals were being slaughtered in public opinion (at 18% at one point), but their ace-in-the-hole was allowing the pipeline if British Columbians are promised a "cut" of the profits. The Liberal government dragged its feet and puffed its chest to Alberta up until the election so that it was a hanging issue that they could capitalize on.

The NDP staked out a solid, resounding stance of "No" the the Northern Gateway pipeline. They ran a good campaign against a beleagured and corrupt government, and ended up losing seats and getting killed by the Liberals. British Columbians were not willing to protect the environment if it meant giving up their special cut of what they will get from the pipeline. Of course, no one wanted to admit this, which is why the polls were so wrong. Thats my analysis.

Anyway, you will see Clark negotiate a payout to BC for the Northern Gateway pipeline soon and construction will move ahead. The First Nations will get their payout and everyone will forget about it until the next spill

1-Old-Man

(2,667 posts)
5. Now that really raises another question. Maybe the fundamental question.
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 11:53 AM
Jul 2013

OK, its Canadian sludge at first, then they make it pumpable and dump it into the pipeline. I presume that the Canadian enterprise, Keystone, owns the pipeline. So far so good, we've got Canadian sludge being pumped through a Canadian pipeline across US soil and it arrives at a Gulf coast refinery. Now what? Do the Canadians pay the refinery to process their sludge or does the Refinery buy the sludge and refine it?

I ask because if it is the former, if the Canadians pay to have their sludge processed, then they will continue to own the resulting product and they may then either sell it to us or ship it off our shores. The same thing is true if a refinery owns the oil of course but One presumes that the Refinery, located on the US soil, will distribute it within existing channels, which is to say primarily to our market.

I have never seen any link in the chain by which any resultant refined oil from this project will land in the US distribution system. None, never.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
7. You do know the plurality of US oil comes from Canada, right?
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 12:28 PM
Jul 2013
I have never seen any link in the chain by which any resultant refined oil from this project will land in the US distribution system.




Canada is the US number 1 supplier of oil. It actually doesn't matter if it ended up in the US system though. Its a global commodity. Wherever it is sold, it will impact global supply and prices.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
11. Technically, I believe the plurality of US oil comes from the US.
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 01:23 PM
Jul 2013

We only import 49% of the oil we consume. But it's so close that you you may find different figures. So, yes, Canada is our biggest source of imported oil, but not our biggest source overall.

pscot

(21,024 posts)
3. I see where you've gone wrong here
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 11:39 AM
Jul 2013

You're using "logic" to analyze the situation. The problem with "Logic" is that it doesn't always produce the "right" answer; the answer our owners are looking for.

2naSalit

(86,515 posts)
9. It is my understanding that there are
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 12:36 PM
Jul 2013

a select few who would benefit from this slow moving train wreck...

Most notably, the Koch Brothers and their filthy cabal which includes Haliburton and other names we've heard but seemingly forgotten already.

So Enbridge/TransCanada are the actuaries in the Keystone pipeline as they are the "company" that build and operate the pipelines. But the tar sands mining operations in themselves, I think, are linked to the brothers. That being said, the brothers do own the refineries in southern TX where the stuff will be further processed for shipment to other continents.

The equally ugly part of this that everyone should understand about this whole fiasco is that not only will there be no significant number of jobs generated here, it is also a device through which our fossil fuels prices here will escalate unabated as the high price of fuels elsewhere will be used to coerce us into paying more or go without by way of imposed shortages. A main reason for continued efforts to thwart any growth in renewable energy production here by numerous corporate megolocrooks including Wall Street f*cks and government shills.

So most of us should disregard the stupid arguments against renewable energy and go for it in sensible, small generation options like point source generation and the like. It would serve us in a number of helpful ways by creating a huge number of jobs building and installing these smaller systems; cut our costs; reduce the affects of storm damage, especially for things like big hurricanes since there wouldn't be entire grids wiped out but most likely only individual buildings or city blocks; it would reduce all those "phone poles" and lines overhead and reduce the mega wind farm and solar farm issue that is threatening wild lands and wildlife; and certainly help us to have the power to tell the corporate pigs that we want a divorce and actually get one with a much smaller set of punishing consequences for doing so.

But what do I know? People don't like to hear what I have to say so...



Berlum

(7,044 posts)
10. "Smirk. Sneer. Smirk." - Koch Boy-Os (R - PuppetMasters)
Wed Jul 31, 2013, 01:15 PM
Jul 2013

"Why don't you smelly proles just STFU. Smirk. Sneer. Smirk." - Koch BoyOs (R - Greedheads)

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»I have a question about t...