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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPolice shoot, kill 95-year-old at Park Forest nursing home (Death panel alert)
Authorities: Police shoot, kill 95-year-old at Park Forest nursing home
Staff report
6:16 a.m. CDT, July 27, 2013
A 95-year-old man wielding a 7-inch blade and a cane was shot by police at a South Suburban nursing home overnight, according to authorities.
Park Forest police were called to Victory Centre of Park Forest after the man, identified as John Warna, threatened staff, authorities said.
Police fired a beanbag-like round from a shotgun at the man after a Tazer failed to subdue him, according to the Cook County medical examiner's office.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-john-warna-victory-centre-park-forest-20130727,0,1534668.story
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ceonupe
(597 posts)Less leathal force on him
Tazer failed
Shot him with beanbag shotgun
Let's not forget he had a knife and was threatening staff. I'm not sure how you think police should have handled this.
Maybe the old man wanted Suicide by cop? But I do know the police usually don't use the beanbag gun when they want to kill u for that its usuall the .40 cal handgun with hallow point bullets
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)They can barely hold up their Depends much less a viable threat
Some how this man had a knife (not a small one either) threatens staff ignores police. Avoids tazer and is taken down by a beanbag gun.
Yes he is old but old does not give u the right the threaten others.
Are you saying the police intentionally killed him? Or is it possible this mans poor choices/medical condition put him in a position That he threatened the life's and saftey of others and the police attempted to use non/less leathal means to stop him.
Like I said if the police just wanted to kill him they could have just shot him with their handguns and it still would have been a justified shooting. It's clear the police tried to avoid killing the man.
HillWilliam
(3,310 posts)How many friggin' dozen donuts does it take to prevent someone, anyone, from subduing a 95-year-old? I'm 56 and hella out of shape but I still have a brain to figure out some non-lethal way of accomplishing the task and not hurting or getting hurt.
FFS.
ceonupe
(597 posts)The attempts to use non lethal methods including
Tazing him(did not work)
And then a bean bag shotgun (designed to stunt not kill)
He died from the injures from the bean bag gun.
They did not shoot him with a handgun.
They tried to end this with less lethal means
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)We're talking about a man so old that an Octogenarian would be referred to as a whippersnapper. We're talking about a man so old that he was alive when Wilson sent us to World War I. He was alive when Poncho Villa was running amok in Mexico. This man saw Lindberg fly across the Atlantic. That is how old he was.
A Taser on a heart that old would have killed him too. There is no device designed for young healthy people, bean bag rounds, tasers, pepper spray, that isn't at least mostly likely to kill the extreme elderly.
So here is what you do, to start by talking. Now, for those of us who are not police, that means we speak, and listen. We don't shout asinine commands demanding that they respect your authoritah. If that doesn't work, knowing he's 95, you walk over and take the knife from him. His reflexes are so slow at that age that he wouldn't notice for at least a few seconds.
In other words, you try something that our police haven't in decades. You try being respectful towards one another. I mean, the cops have enough body armor on to stop a rifle round, and you're telling me they're afraid of an ancient man with a pointy object?
What kind of cowards are the fucking cops that a little old man with a pointy object is more than they can handle?
Bo
(1,080 posts)Cops today are just bottom of barrel makeup
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Cops today are made up of kids who got picked on in High School. Now they have a badge, and a gun, and nobody is going to mess with them ever again.
I'm not in favor of bullies by the way, but there is no way you should ever give the bullied power to become what they detest, because they'll out do anything that ever happened to them.
My opinion of police would have to improve before I had as much as zero respect for them.
Ilsa
(61,690 posts)Good lord, are the nanogenarians using the highest weight stress on the nautilus equipment there? Are they so fit they can take out a thirty-something, forty-something year old cop?
How about body-blocking him from behind, if possible?
How about getting a pretty woman to sweet talk him with promises of extra tapioca after his 4pm supper?
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)indepat
(20,899 posts)It's a shame a few extra minutes could not have been expended to try to reason with the man. To someone whose father had lived past 95, this was a needless, reckless, and unnecessary homicide imo. 
The Magistrate
(95,243 posts)
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)You would be amazed at the stories I could tell. Lots of elderly become confused and some severely so in the hospital.
ceonupe
(597 posts)as none of the nurses there did what you say you could have easily done. The called the police because they could gain control of the situation.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)even in schools to let the police handle everything.
ceonupe
(597 posts)and the fact that if you do act on your own and get injured you may get fired from your job for not following protocol.
that protocol was designed by lawyers to prevent liability.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Maybe it is an attitude thing..dunno.
All I do know is I read too many reports now of situations where poice aggression is used as a first resort instead of a last resort. Yet somehow in the past 30 years, those of us in the helping professions managed to handle 90% of the
"acting out" patients we came across.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)You are adding a condition which nobody in their right mind would add.
Your attitude that a specific intent to kill is required before any of us can condemn the odd and irrational action of the police is also odd and irrational.
Do you realize that?
ceonupe
(597 posts)many posts were anti police like they did it on purpose.
I was pointing out that its clear the police used methods that are less lethal.
its not like the took their glock out and just shot the guy then left for doughnuts
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Your statement that there are "those who claim that the police intentionally killed him" is false.
It is sufficient that they delivered excessive and unnecessary violence. Normal people can understand that.
aikoaiko
(34,163 posts)Mail Message
At Sat Jul 27, 2013, 12:59 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
i am specifcly responding to those who claim the police intentionally killed him
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3353725
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
So this poster in post #3 throws up a strawman and then follows up with a false accusation in this post based on that strawman. Check the transparency to see what he is up to.
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frylock
(34,825 posts)nope, they went straight for the hi-tech goodies. fuck tha police and fuck this shit. ninety-five fucking years old and the fucking cowards can't subdue him.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)What could be more cowardly than using a shotgun-type weapon to shoot a 95-year old?
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)They're not all the same.
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)Tells you what his capabilities really were
TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)Cops are cowards and just shoot, that's all they know.
ceonupe
(597 posts)I don't want him tackling a man with a knife I want my cousin to have a father when his shift ends.
It's simple really pick up knifes and threaten people and the police come and u don't put it down but contour to threaten people u at the least are going to get tazed.
Also a person with a knife can cover incredible distance in very short time watch this video below
Link won't work but under 20 feet knife vs gun knife can win
TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)Maybe he shouldn't be a cop if he's such a coward.
ceonupe
(597 posts)the police did use less lethal means
im not saying they could not have used other methods including waiting him out.
we don't know all of the details and weather others were at risk making the wait out idea complicated.
Yes tazer on old man is not great idea
neither is beanbag shotgun
but they are better than .40 cal handgun
maybe they could have used the fireextengwisher on him but I guess inside a nursng home ding that or using chemical agents like peper spray/ oc spray would be a really bad idea given the number of patients/residents with breathing issues.
The Magistrate
(95,243 posts)The day is still young, but this may well prove the stupidest, most blitheringly idiotic post put up here today.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)The Magistrate
(95,243 posts)I always find it most amusing when 'gotta have a gun for self-defense' types fall to lauding the tremendous lethal potential of knives and bare hands, claiming this is of such a degree that it may even put a man with a pistol at a disadvantage. One wonders why they choose, then, to encumber themselves with the weight and bother, and do not simply carry a blade, or go without any arms at all, and so partake of this tremendous lethal capability they ascribe to those so equipped....
frylock
(34,825 posts)yeah. okay.
ceonupe
(597 posts)They did not just shoot him.
First they talked
Then they tazed
Then they used beanbag gun.
They did all to avoid killing the old man. It turns out the bean bag gun killed him.
Do u think the police have knife proof suits on or something?
Fla Dem
(23,590 posts)Seriously, a 95 year old man would be knocked backwards by a thrown beanbag. Throw a bunch of them all at once, throw a blanket over him, jeez, an number of ways to incapacitate this man without killing him. No rationale thought went into this attack.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)That is why they all wear such bulky uniforms. They wear bullet proof and stab proof body armor. I'm surprised your Uncle didn't mention that.
http://www.bulletproofvestshop.com/categories/Stab-Proof-%7B47%7D-Anti-Stab-Vests/
Tell him he can buy some there if he is the one uniformed cop in the nation not wearing body armor.
ceonupe
(597 posts)The UK police do an even have special undergarments to protect against knifes. In Britain the threat of knife violence is much higher than gun violence as they are almost totally banned and in cases of guns the call the special police.
You may think that bullet proof means stab/slashproof but you would be wrong. also US police vests often provide little throat/face side and arm protection. and the bullet proof vests stop near the bely button leaving lots of exposed area.
There are some very good combination vests but they aren't common in the USA for use by the police.
damnedifIknow
(3,183 posts)The guy was 95 years old. Hell wait for him to take a damn nap Jesus.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)
malaise
(268,702 posts)but clearly you know nothing about old people and dementia. If you do reach that age I hope others are more thoughtful than you.
Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)That wouldn't surprise me, 95 year olds are pretty fragile.
People on this thread are acting like the police purposely said let's shoot him we got to make it to the doughnut shop.
The police talked to him
Then attempted to raze him
Then finally shot him with beanbag gun.
If the police would have just shot him with there .40 cal primary weapon then maybe I could understand some of the posts here.
This was a man armed with a knife who had already treated the staff and the police
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)He can have all the ill intent in the world. But he's still 95. His reflexes are history a couple decades ago. His mind even if filled with murderous thoughts, is in a body that is held up by balancing with a cane. The other weapon mentioned in the article.
This man was so old his Social Security number was 2. He was so old that he saw things in history that you probably haven't read about. He was a young adult when Pearl Harbor was attacked. He might have been a veteran of that war. Now if you're telling me that our brave police officers are so inept that they can't disarm a 95 year old man then I say that town needs to fire those idiots, so they can get a job more in keeping with their abilities, like asking if the customer wants fries with that order, and hire some new cops who are not as stupid.
Ilsa
(61,690 posts)I can't help but wonder if talking to him about the past, maybe a good decade for him, reminiscence therapy, would have calmed him down, de-escalated the whole thing.
Maybe he got the wrong meds that day?
ileus
(15,396 posts)A knife is a serious threat when the person holding it is fast and capable. A 7" blade in the hands of a 95yo can be neturalized with a chair or any longer than his arm object in contact with his chest, then a simple push will topple him over.
Don't get the wrong here I've seen plenty of elderly patients that were strong but all can be knocked down.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)I keep hearing how our cops are bravely defending us from horrible criminals, courageously risking themselves etc. Then something like this comes along and not one of those brave men or women was smart enough to walk over and take the pointy object from a man so old that his Social Security number was 2.
Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)it'll be awhile till they get back up.
KG
(28,751 posts)this message brought to you by: the Daily Isolated Incident
DLevine
(1,788 posts)
Ian David
(69,059 posts)Peaceplace80
(38 posts)Killed him he couldn't of been that much of a threat. Why didn't they try to use pepper spray or throw a pillow at him. The poor guy was probably scared out of his mind and didn't know what was going on.
Chicago_Poster
(1 post)He must be white or the police would have used a real gun, not a beanbag gun.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Nonthinking cowards.
mick063
(2,424 posts)We are finding that the "non lethal" label isn't entirely accurate.
Rules of engagement are clearly defined for lethal force.
It is about time there was a similar standard for "non lethal" force. It appears that such "non lethal" methods can be used on a whim.
This particular incident would likely hold up (procedurally) as an appropriate use, but what about the 90 year old man that drove his tractor down the wrong street in a parade and was tazered to death for it?
KentuckyWoman
(6,679 posts)WHY did they have a 95 yr old patient, known to be combative, known to be "involuntarily committed", in a place where he had access to a 12" butcher knife?
Then the cops show up and escalate the situation instead of calming things down. Look if the guy needs to be transported to the hospital and doesn't want to go then you back off, get witnesses to sign off on the charts so everyone knows the man has refused life saving treatment and then stop forcing things on him he doesn't want. If the guy dies in an hour good grief - he's already living someplace he didn't want to live - at least let him die the way he wants.......
onethatcares
(16,162 posts)to kill himself.
KentuckyWoman
(6,679 posts)if so, he got his wish.......
Whatever happened, the nursing home staff called the cops to protect their own butts legally speaking. An unfortunate necessity when you have CNA's making not much more than minimum wage being asking to make life and death decisions for extremely vulnerable people.
But once the cops show up you'd think a supervisor or administrator with more sense would have been on the scene by then.
This scenario is just pitiful all the way around.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)
kentuck
(111,052 posts)Cops get away with murder.
appleannie1
(5,062 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)appleannie1
(5,062 posts)trying to send him to a hospital for a medical problem. He was fighting them. The medical problem could have been the cause of death because he did not get immediate care for it because he fought going.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)when, in fact, he was shot with bean-type bullets in bean bag.
Now, you want to excuse the unnecessary and excessive use of force by saying
"That quite possibly was not the cause of death."
Somehow, I don't think that the shooting with the bean bag was medically necessary or helped.
appleannie1
(5,062 posts)have seen ninety YOA people break leather restraints and bend wheelchair arms and seriously injure staff. The police would not have been called if they could control him.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Sure you have.
As said upthread, the use of unnecessary and excessive force violates the Civil Rights laws and common sense.
No.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Bet the old man was senile. He is not really responsible for his actions if this is the case. As for the police, I am willing to concede that if they do not shoot you with a gun, they are showing restraint. But a 95 year old senile man in a nursing home is a special case. If he was a bear in someone's yard, they would use a tranquilizer gun and try their best not to harm him. Why don't they treat humans in a similar fashion? Seems like a tranquilizer would work as effectively as a device that uses pain to control a suspect.
