The Nation: THE SECOND AMENDMENT

[Omaha Steve]

59 pages of replies so far.

http://nationbuilders.thenation.com/forum/topics/the-second-amendment?xg_source=msg_mes_network

Posted by Bill Frank on April 15, 2012 at 11:37am in Talking Politics



A WELL-REGULATED MALITIA being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.



Well there we go, I got a couple of questions for those that think this is so sacred, it must not be amended.



1. Where does it say we can't regulate the manufacturers of guns?



2. Where does it say we can't regulate the gun stores?



3.Where does it say that we can't license people?



4. Where does it say we can't make sure somebody is mentally fit to own a gun?



5. Where does it say we can't register all weapons, and keep track of where each one is?



6. Where does it say we can't have a weapon registry, or a list of people who are licensed to carry a gun?

[MotherPetrie]

1. K&R

[hack89]

2. Nowhere.

you just don't have the public support to do many of those things. It is not a legal issue.

[Hoyt]

3. The more people learn about those who walk among with guns and callousness, the sooner we wil

get some tough laws. Creepy Zimmerman is not an exception.

[hack89]

5. "Just you wait" has been the motto of gun controllers for the past two decades

I am not holding my breath.

[spin]

6. I don't see legal concealed carry being outlawed anytime in the near future...

and while some states may rewrite their "stand your ground" self defense laws, I don't see them being repealed.

[Hoyt]

8. Heck, smokers didn't expect a backlash either. Hopefully gubmit will develop treatment programs

for those addicted to guns.

[spin]

21. What does smoking have to do with legal concealed carry and "stand your ground" self defense? (n/t)

[galileoreloaded]

11. they walk among us!!! boo!!

[Hoyt]

13. Grow up, you can actually venture from home without a gun.

[galileoreloaded]

17. don't own one. just not a-skeered of em either. nt

[MH1]

19. I bet Trayvon Martin wasn't particularly "a-skeered of em" either.

But he's dead now.

[The Straight Story]

4. Think it all comes down to one word in there "infringed"

And how one applies it.

Funny thing though. They mention guns. Freedom of speech. Religion. But nothing about horses. Carriages. Boots. Knives. Torches. Etc.

Guess maybe they had previous experience with governments having too much power over people and restricting certain things and wanted to make sure it didn't happen again.

[Hoyt]

10. Yeah, that word matters, but the first clause is conveniently ignored by gun obsessed.

[derby378]

15. Uh, Hoyt? See #9

Brainy Smurfing can only get you so far.

[The Straight Story]

16. You mean....

Where it purposely differentiates between milita's and the people? Funny how they used both words.

[Hoyt]

18. Not really. Gunners tell us militia is people, or some such BS.

[The Straight Story]

20. I see it this way:

They said a well regulated militia was needed, and that people had the right to bear arms.

Two things which they kept separated - one was needed, one was a right.

[Hoyt]

23. Quite convoluted, but you hear it often from gun crowd.

Last edited Sat Jul 20, 2013, 07:34 AM - Edit history (1)

[derby378]

9. It's really simple - just use the "well-regulated militia" argument

A well-regulated militia should have access to dependable firearms that don't jam, aren't prone to dangerous malfunctions, and won't fall apart in your hand after being fired two or three times - let alone explode in your hand.

Stores that sell firearms to the well-regulated militia should operate along militia guidelines. Does a sporting goods clerk at Wal-Mart, straight out of high school, know how to spot a potential straw purchase?

Soldiers, sailors, cops, deputies, and state troopers carry firearms that are registered with a central ledger or database of some kind. I don't have that much problem with a central register of civilian firearms as pertaining to a well-regulated militia.

But any talk about a civilian needing a permit just to own a firearm - well, that spells trouble.

[SCUBANOW]

30. This is not true!

"Soldiers, sailors, cops, deputies, and state troopers carry firearms that are registered with a central ledger or database of some kind."

No officer in my city has to register his firearm to a centeral ledger or database.

[derby378]

35. That cop has a commanding officer, correct?

Someone in the police department is keeping a list of duty weapon serial numbers and to whom each weapon is issued. I don't know of that many police departments where cops are ordered to purchase their own weapons out of their own pockets - that's what taxpayers are there for.

[rrneck]

12. In the voting booth. nt

[Igel]

14. Check out the NSA spying.

Are they infringing your right to free speech? Are they infringing on your privacy through metadata collection?

How?

If the government monitors and collects what you say, issues licenses for speech, would that be making your speech less free? I mean, as long as they don't make you pay for it, your speech is without cost to you. That means it's free.

Don't give me any of that nonsense about words having different meanings. I know what "free" means. I have coupons for a free chicken sandwich at a local fastfood place. It means "without charge."

But wait--I also know that "free" can have multiple meanings. And that it's possible to limit free speech though "chilling effects." So a really, really cose parsing of the law might miss the main point, which is that the freedom to speak should be as untrammelled as possible. Even if a lot of speech--and I've heard "progressives" argue this speech should be banned--is hateful and hurtful.


The law says not to infringe the right of the people to bear arms. Regulate the militia all you went--the better regulated it is, the better a militia it will have to be (assuming that you don't exhaust them). And for family happiness, the regulation should be consistent and perhaps once a month will do. That should make sure they're regulated well enough, provided their have their arms kept in good order.

[spin]

22. Here's how NSA spying can infringe on your rights to free speech. ...

If we continue down this path of allowing the government to spy on all communications there will come a time when you hesitate before making a post on DU because you realize that it might be reviewed.

Say a Republican gains control of the White House and you wish to be critical in your post of the way he is running the nation but you fear that you might be audited b the IRS or that if you apply for a job with the government, a review will show that you are a progressive liberal.

There's a big difference between a democracy and a police state.

“There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized.” (George Orwell, from the novel ’1984?.)

[SoutherDem]

24. Read the following book and you may understand

The Second Amendment Primer: A Citizen's Guide to the History, Sources, and Authorities for the Constitutional Guarantee of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms by Les Adams.

[UserNSAv32]

25. Gun control is very easy to implement all one has to do is show on TV mainly in the Red States

People of color, specifically Black Males legally buying guns and openly carrying them.

The AWGs will lose their mind and we will have real gun control and it will happen so fast it will seem like it happened over night.

Use their racism and hate against them.

[spin]

29. Florida has "shall issue" concealed carry . ...

I personally know several Black males who have concealed weapons permits and many others who own firearms.

At the gun ranges I used to shoot at in the Tampa Bay Area, Blacks were welcomed. I was often asked by the range master to help out a newbie who was Black or Hispanic.

Admittedly not many Blacks were members of the ranges I shot at in the Tampa Bay Area but that might have been because they suspected the shooters at the range would all be racists.

Years ago I took a Black co-worker to the Tampa Police Pistol Range to introduce him to the shooting sports. He enjoyed shooting handguns but was really amazed at how well he was welcomed by the range master and other members. He eventually obtained a concealed weapons permit and also became my boss. The instructor of his concealed weapons class was so impressed with my co-workers shooting ability that he tried to get him interested in competitive shooting.

Now I can't say that all pistol ranges in Florida treat all people equally. I can only say that I didn't see any evidence of racism at the ones I have shot at.

[Lee-Lee]

31. It has been my experience as well

Most white people who see me assume I am black or at least partially black, although I am not.

In visits to lots of gun stores and ranges, I have felt unwelcome in exactly two.

Maybe because I am female skews it a bit, I don't know.

Now, most gun shops do see a dark skinned female walk in and assume I don't know anything about guns. It is profiling a bit, but then again I guess it is somewhat grounded in their experience- most females don't know much about guns, and minority females are even less likely to have experience. But I still prefer they talk to me a bit and get to know me and what I know before jumping to conclusions about what I do or do not know.

[Motown_Johnny]

26. To play devil's advocate here...

they feel that any of those things would infringe on a person's ability/right to own a firearm.

Personally I feel that argument is bull shit. I don't even think the 2nd amendment is about an individual's right to own a gun.



To help illustrate my point, lets play a little 2nd amendment mad libs.


A well _____ ______being necessary to the ______ of a _____ _______, the right of the people to keep and bear ______ shall not be infringed.



I will go with:

A well Running Engine being necessary to the functioning of a motor vehicle. the right of the people to keep and bear spark plugs shall not be infringed.



From my reading, that sentence is about motor vehicles. I also believe that the 2nd amendment is about a free state. Not an individual's security. I also believe that once we moved beyond the necessity of a state to defend itself the second amendment no longer was relevant. Just as if we move beyond internal combustion engines, spark plugs will no longer be relevant.

The second amendment is a dinosaur. Keeping and bearing arms was just a means to an end. Once that end is achieved though other means then the original means is/are no longer relevant..

[Kolesar]

27. Where does it say cocaine racketeers can use "stand your ground" when the deceased cannot talk? eom

[MNBrewer]

28. The 2nd doesn't make an exception for felons or crazy people, yet we all seem to be ok with that

If we can clearly violate the 2nd amendment for such common sense restrictions as preventing felons and the insane from owning guns, we certainly can make other common sense restrictions as well.

[hack89]

32. It is not a legal issue

there is simply not widespread public support for many gun control proposals.

[MNBrewer]

33. Depends on where you live.

[hack89]

34. Yes - but when you are talking about national laws

then you get the kind of gridlock we find in Congress. Each pol is listening to his/her constituents. Which considerably dilutes the message.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

36. The same place it mentions "right to privacy" and "separation of church and state".

America's model of constitutional democracy is clearly flawed - the constitution barely says anything, making "non-activist" enforcement of it impossible.

But if the approach you're going to take is to read a lot into it that isn't actually there, and to respect "stare decisis" - which is the only thing that keeps abortion legal - then that cuts both ways.

I'm a card-carrying gun grabber - I think we've got it about here in the UK - but I'm afraid I also think that just about any sane form of gun control is unconstitutional and will be ruled as such, and that the place to start would have to be repeal of the second. And since there's zero chance of that, gun control isn't an issue worth pushing - just accept that tens of thousands of people will go on being killed every year, and there's nothing you can do about it, and try to fix education and healthcare instead.

Grim, but hard to get around.