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Robb

(39,665 posts)
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 08:58 AM Jul 2013

Black, 17, and Shot Dead by Concealed Carry Permit Holder in Florida (spoiler: not Zimmerman)


Michael Dunn to go on trial for murder of Jordan Davis in September

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- The man who claimed self-defense in shooting Jordan Davis to death will go on trial in September.

A judge set a trial date of September 23 for Michael Dunn. He is accused of the first-degree murder of 17-year-old Jordan Davis last year.

(snip)

Police say Dunn got into an argument over loud music with a SUV full of teenagers, including Davis.

Dunn asked the teens to turn down their music. He told police the teenagers flashed a shotgun before he opened fire on their SUV, killing Davis.

Police never found a weapon in the teenager's SUV.

Read More: http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Michael-Dunn-to-go-on-trial-for-murder-of-Jordan/kRtNIA25sUipqla_kJlf-Q.cspx
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Black, 17, and Shot Dead by Concealed Carry Permit Holder in Florida (spoiler: not Zimmerman) (Original Post) Robb Jul 2013 OP
And he will be convicted ceonupe Jul 2013 #1
I don't think so JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #2
Do Not Think He Will Walk erpowers Jul 2013 #12
And he had no injuries Yo_Mama Jul 2013 #17
and Trayvon was just walking down the sidewalk Horse with no Name Jul 2013 #20
Lack of Witnesses erpowers Jul 2013 #29
But the first hand witness JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #36
On the other hand,,,, Cryptoad Jul 2013 #39
I will JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #23
I lived in Jax for a time. Disgusting-ass place. I was in a band and got beat up because... BlueJazz Jul 2013 #30
now you can just shoot all four of them leftyohiolib Jul 2013 #61
LOL! BlueJazz Jul 2013 #67
Ha! JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #78
LOL!! Lucky Luciano Jul 2013 #97
yeah, open fire into a car full of teenagers because "I thought they had a gun!" anneboleyn Jul 2013 #109
I've lived south of Jax for nearly forty years. I'll agree. I don't like Jacksonville. That said, 1monster Jul 2013 #87
+1... I've seen this story play out... Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #74
Glad you stopped by JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #76
On and one more piece of dirt JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #79
It's the new segregation taking over. zeemike Jul 2013 #85
You can make those claims or learn the law. Your choice. cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #25
"a reasonable person" Autumn Colors Jul 2013 #34
I'm pretty sure "law" these days has nothing to do with Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #89
+1. nt Robb Jul 2013 #92
Good for you gopiscrap Jul 2013 #54
Statistically, no, he won't. Robb Jul 2013 #4
+1 JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #5
Static ts about crimes are misleading ceonupe Jul 2013 #8
"Arrest data for Texas CHL holders indicate that violent crime is not a consequence of handgun ... hack89 Jul 2013 #27
And a tidbit that wont go over well with many here! nt 7962 Jul 2013 #95
What are the statistics for the general population? anomiep Jul 2013 #31
Conservatively, 70%. Robb Jul 2013 #38
Ok anomiep Jul 2013 #43
The article anomiep Jul 2013 #88
+1 uponit7771 Jul 2013 #48
Don't hit the humpers with facts!-NT Anansi1171 Jul 2013 #65
I agree, very different facts. He said there was a gun, and not even a small one, 7962 Jul 2013 #13
Here is the CNN link ceonupe Jul 2013 #51
OK, I thought your original post meant that the original story 7962 Jul 2013 #96
I seriously doubt it. NOLALady Jul 2013 #33
I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but . . . Jack Rabbit Jul 2013 #37
I have no confidence that this will happen uponit7771 Jul 2013 #47
he saw what he thought was a shotgun, he had reasonable grounds to think his life was in danger. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #99
makes alot of diffrence ceonupe Jul 2013 #100
I forgot about that story - North Georgia, right? Ruby the Liberal Jul 2013 #101
One claims he was with the shooter and did not do it ceonupe Jul 2013 #105
Okay - thanks Ruby the Liberal Jul 2013 #107
Her only crime ceonupe Jul 2013 #108
The big, glaring, massive difference though Number23 Jul 2013 #112
Very different case wercal Jul 2013 #3
good thing Herbert Mullin didn't operate in FL: he, too, genuinely thought the MisterP Jul 2013 #32
Do you think that 'genuine thought' is reasonable? anomiep Jul 2013 #45
This is false, the jury will have to deliberate on a ABSURD proffeing of "reasonable fear" uponit7771 Jul 2013 #50
Sorry you can't see the differences in this case wercal Jul 2013 #58
Unfortunately it's the same inept prosecutors office on this case as the Zimmerman case bigdarryl Jul 2013 #6
I think he gets convicted justanaverageguy Jul 2013 #7
Disagree JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #14
Ask yourself this justanaverageguy Jul 2013 #24
I would HAVE to believe him JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #28
are you being sarcastic?? justanaverageguy Jul 2013 #44
No - I'm serious JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #53
"I don't know if they were trying to stash something in the car...." Robb Jul 2013 #18
Gun owners kill normal people. nt onehandle Jul 2013 #9
Why haven't we heard more about this situation? lynne Jul 2013 #10
Future defense attorney: He thought he saw a shotgun CanonRay Jul 2013 #11
Exactly JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #15
+1 uponit7771 Jul 2013 #52
I've always said I wouldn't go either - even if matthews Jul 2013 #106
I'll bet money this guy gets time. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #16
I wonder how many went hunting this weekend BainsBane Jul 2013 #19
With the exception of no prior call to the police, its pretty close. He's guilty and after.... marble falls Jul 2013 #21
This Dunn asshole fled from the scene after he shot those kids up MrScorpio Jul 2013 #22
I agree MrScorpio JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #26
What the white jury will see: "the kids had a shotgun, and after geek tragedy Jul 2013 #60
The Phantom Shotgun Defense MrScorpio Jul 2013 #64
The Gungeoneers were already inventing ways to acquit the guy: geek tragedy Jul 2013 #69
Jeez, Louise. nt MrScorpio Jul 2013 #70
Not surprised at all, and I'm guessing they'll be the first ones to celebrate... Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #72
That's a must-read thread right there. Thanks for posting it. Robb Jul 2013 #73
Yep, with the group mod leading the way. His standard: geek tragedy Jul 2013 #75
They enjoy defending their own to the bitter end Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #91
Yep, if blacks are insufficiently respectful towards white, summary execution. nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #93
Oh wow JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #81
even knowing that THE KIDS NEVER LEFT THE CAR, here's the Gungeoneer standard: geek tragedy Jul 2013 #82
"WHAT IF IT WAS JUSTIFIED?" Holy damn shit. Number23 Jul 2013 #111
Different case. Different facts. DirkGently Jul 2013 #35
Kicking for future. yourout Jul 2013 #40
I predict a not guilty verdict. Blackford Jul 2013 #41
The racists are celebrating! It's open season! This guy will walk.. mountain grammy Jul 2013 #42
Why I wonder 1st degree murder Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #46
Because he willfully murdered another human being with malice nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #62
Understood. Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #68
talked about this case since it happened angrychair Jul 2013 #49
He'll walk. White jurors will have an image of a car full of black teens, geek tragedy Jul 2013 #55
It sounds like the police did a better job investigating avebury Jul 2013 #56
Disgusting from the links comments page MillennialDem Jul 2013 #57
yeah, it's par for the course Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #94
I remember reading about this skeewee08 Jul 2013 #59
I believed Zim should have been found not guilty Boom Sound 416 Jul 2013 #63
he'll heaven05 Jul 2013 #66
This is why we need to teach our minority children to carry and AIM... LaydeeBug Jul 2013 #71
Too many witnesses HockeyMom Jul 2013 #77
that's legal isn't it? bowens43 Jul 2013 #80
The defense will claim that the kids disposed of the shotgun kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #83
Or, make the case about whether geek tragedy Jul 2013 #84
They can't, the cameras were on...BUT in a Man slaughter case the JURY can ONLY deliberate on what uponit7771 Jul 2013 #90
Dunn made a mistake Turbineguy Jul 2013 #86
Consider anomiep Jul 2013 #98
I assume nothing after that bullshit from Saturday... Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #104
I didn't ask anyone to assume anything anomiep Jul 2013 #110
Oh dear, he 'thought' he saw a shotgun Rex Jul 2013 #102
Just when I thought the Freepers couldn't be more demonic. kalisto2010 Jul 2013 #103
 

ceonupe

(597 posts)
1. And he will be convicted
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:01 AM
Jul 2013

Very different facts in this case.

Almost like the freepers posting about the 2 teen black boys who shot a mother and executed her baby in a stroller point blank.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
2. I don't think so
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:10 AM
Jul 2013

Again - Just like Zimmerman - this guy is going to claim reasonable fear.

The prosecutors will not be able to prove he didn't fear for his life. . . i.e. He saw a shot gun in HIS head and that is ALLLLLLLLLLLL that matters those Nogoodnik Black Teenagers are always up to no good .

He'll walk.

Now - I'm not one for 'boycotting' the state of Florida - but over my dead body will my nephews ever step foot in that state. One 17 and one 20 - there's nothing they need there that they can't get at the Jersey shore or Princeton U as young black men.

Until I can feel assured they won't get shot willy nilly for shits and giggles - no need for them to be in that low element.

erpowers

(9,350 posts)
12. Do Not Think He Will Walk
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:41 AM
Jul 2013

The evidence surrounding this case is different from the Zimmerman case. In this case the young man was just sitting in a car. The man who did the shooting claimed he saw a gun, but no gun was found in the car. In addition, I think there are witnesses who can give an opposing view in the case from that of the shooter.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
17. And he had no injuries
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:46 AM
Jul 2013

He's going down, as well he should. Unless he successfully cops an insanity plea.

The fear has to "reasonable". This was not a reasonable fear, even if he did have it, and I doubt it.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
20. and Trayvon was just walking down the sidewalk
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:50 AM
Jul 2013

two kids...minding their own business.

How is this "that different"?

erpowers

(9,350 posts)
29. Lack of Witnesses
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:00 AM
Jul 2013

Due to a lack of witnesses George Zimmerman could claim he had been attacked and feared for his life. In the second case a guy got out of his vehicle, told kids to turn down their music, and then for some reason started shooting indiscriminately at the vehicle in which the young man was sitting. In the second case the self defense claim will most likely not stand.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
36. But the first hand witness
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:04 AM
Jul 2013

Are young, black thugs . They were in the SUV with the other thug and all it takes is an all white jury and a couple of good defense attorneys and the case and circumstances are exactly the same.


Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
39. On the other hand,,,,
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:12 AM
Jul 2013

we have no doubt that he would be found not guilty if there were no witnesses to counter his claim of self defense. In that case he would have never even been charged.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
23. I will
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:50 AM
Jul 2013

I'm black in America and I'm onto the 'con'.

Kid is black.
Guy is white.
Same community.
Same white jury.
Guy walks.

Case closed. Move on. And I was aware of this long before it was posted at DU. Zimmerman set a precedent.

Go read ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL of the Zimmerman supporters posts the past few weeks. Many of them truly supported the belief that Zimmerman felt his life was in danger.

Head being smashed on a concrete sidewalk 30 times - versus a REAL LIVE SHOT GUN SIGHTING.

He (Dunn) truly BELIEVED he saw a shot gun.

Why defend him or say it's different.

He BELIEVED it and proceeded accordingly.

And if he had just stepped on the 'gas' and driven away - whose to say the 'not an angel himself' wouldn't have just blown him away as he was driving away. I can hear his attorney's now - But he believed it - so it was.

Case closed.

That area of Florida is making quite a name for itself you know . . . And well - 'we' seem them for what they are. You need to accept that - because I have a REASONABLE fear that they will never give justice to a black victim 'period' in that neighborhood.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
30. I lived in Jax for a time. Disgusting-ass place. I was in a band and got beat up because...
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:00 AM
Jul 2013

...my hair was too long. "Hey girlie, girlie..come over here for a minute." (4 grown men)

anneboleyn

(5,611 posts)
109. yeah, open fire into a car full of teenagers because "I thought they had a gun!"
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 08:04 PM
Jul 2013

And "I did of course have a gun so that was convenient!" SARCASM ALERT.

1monster

(11,012 posts)
87. I've lived south of Jax for nearly forty years. I'll agree. I don't like Jacksonville. That said,
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:47 AM
Jul 2013

the first reaction to this news story was outrage.

I don't think he will walk.


http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/black-florida-teen-jordan-davis-killed-46-year-old-michael-dunn-sound-familiar

Dunn and his girlfriend, Rhonda Rouer, were on the way back from a wedding where he had consumed at least three alcoholic beverages, according to Policymic.

As reported by First Coast News:


Rhonda Rouer tells police when they parked next to a car with loud music at the Gate Station on Southside Boulevard November 23rd, Michael Dunn said "I hate that thug music" as he had said to her before. She went inside to buy wine and chips, and heard several shots fired while she was inside.

She looked out and saw Dunn, but did not see a gun. She went outside and he urgently told her to 'get in the car, get in the car!' As she did, she saw Dunn put his gun back in the glove box. Dunn told her he shot at the car with the loud music — she asked him why.

"He said 'I feared for my life.' I said 'why?' He said 'they threatened to kill me.'"

Police: "And he also told you at some point they were advancing?"

Rouer: "Correct."

Police: "But he did not elaborate on what advancing meant?"

Rouer: "Exactly."

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
76. Glad you stopped by
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:10 AM
Jul 2013

Just look at the picture in the OP (not attacking ROB - attacking the media's side by side). . .

Here are the attacks:

*He's black*

He was wearing a sweat shirt.

He was wearing a hat that said 'obey'. That's code for 'kill whitey with a shot gun'

*He's black*

He had not one but TWO earrings - the mark of a sociopathic serial killer.

He's 17.

*He's black*



Slam dunk for the defense and all white jury. You mark my words bluetires.


Psst - outside of the African American group - do you think I need to pepper this with a bunch of or will folks 'get it'?

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
79. On and one more piece of dirt
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:12 AM
Jul 2013

Black rapper once said the word cop - and the victim one listened to rap music.

Case closed!

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
85. It's the new segregation taking over.
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:34 AM
Jul 2013

It's the new racism come to call.

And we will see more of this I am sure, because the purpose is to make black people afraid so that they will stay in their place...just like the Jim Crow laws of the past.

i lived in Florida for many years, and there are racist there that rival Mississippi....and they did not just disappear when the civil right act was signed into law...they want the old south to rise again.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
25. You can make those claims or learn the law. Your choice.
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:52 AM
Jul 2013

It is utterly irrelevant whether he feared for his life. The question is whether a reasonable person would have under the circumstances.

It is a reasonability standard, not a state of mind defense.

 

Autumn Colors

(2,379 posts)
34. "a reasonable person"
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:03 AM
Jul 2013
It is utterly irrelevant whether he feared for his life. The question is whether a reasonable person would have under the circumstances.


It may be a reasonability standard, but during the trial, it is the jury who decides what a reasonable person would have feared in those circumstances. If it's an all-white jury from the same town then those people may have the same mindset about blacks as the shooter. If that's the case, then that jury will side with the shooter ... just like this jury did with Zimmerman.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
89. I'm pretty sure "law" these days has nothing to do with
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 12:17 PM
Jul 2013

"Can I make a jury believe reasonable doubt?"

(just to paraphrase a talking point from the Zimmerman cheerleading brigade)

Robb

(39,665 posts)
4. Statistically, no, he won't.
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:21 AM
Jul 2013

Only 2 out of 10 arrested concealed carry permit holders end up convicted of the crimes for which they were arrested; the overwhelming majority either beat the rap completely (46%) or are convicted of lesser crimes (32%).

 

ceonupe

(597 posts)
8. Static ts about crimes are misleading
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:30 AM
Jul 2013

What are the facts of those cases.

I know one thing all shootings of robbers during B&E / home invasion and active assaults with witnesses or injury I will call clean shootings

hack89

(39,171 posts)
27. "Arrest data for Texas CHL holders indicate that violent crime is not a consequence of handgun ...
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:53 AM
Jul 2013

ownership or possession."

Interesting tidbit.

anomiep

(153 posts)
31. What are the statistics for the general population?
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:01 AM
Jul 2013

Without comparison data, for all I know that's in line with the rates for the general population.

anomiep

(153 posts)
43. Ok
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:19 AM
Jul 2013

But I don't think a cause has been established for why the rates are different.

As far as the OP case, based on what I know, he'll likely get convicted, rightly, because based on the information I have (newspaper reports and such) his fear was not reasonable.

anomiep

(153 posts)
88. The article
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:56 AM
Jul 2013

I'm not sure it's making clear whether or not that 70% includes people being convicted of lesser felonies than they were charged with.

If that is the case, you'd be comparing 78% vs. 70%

The number of convictions of CHL holders is far, far lower than the general population, so this would tend to indicate that the arrest rate is likely also far, far lower.

And this points out another problem with your initial statement. Your initial claim appears to be that statistically he won't be convicted - that may be true for the crime for which he was arrested/charged, but your own statistics show only a 22% chance that he walks scot free.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
13. I agree, very different facts. He said there was a gun, and not even a small one,
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:41 AM
Jul 2013

that was never found. And they were arguing too. But about that other story, are you saying thats not what happened? Because I never saw anything about the facts of that case changing. (I live a few hrs from where that happened) Then again, a story can be front page, and a "correction" will be on page 2 in a little box at the bottom of the page.

 

ceonupe

(597 posts)
51. Here is the CNN link
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:26 AM
Jul 2013

CNN story here

link

There are other sites with more information but the story goes.

The teens profiled the victim as an easy target. She did kit have money they shot her and the baby point blank. Right in middle of the street. Not much coverage here on DU or national media.

What's crazy is how young the killers are.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
96. OK, I thought your original post meant that the original story
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 02:43 PM
Jul 2013

that I had always heard was not the true story. When you said "freepers", I figured you meant they were posting something that was "less than accurate". I imagine the younger one wanted to impress the older one.
The thing is, it astounds me how I've read so many comments here about the "war on blacks', yet black on white murders FAR FAR outweigh white on black murders. And have for years. With blacks making up only 13% of the population.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
37. I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but . . .
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:05 AM
Jul 2013

. . . as one who believes the facts in the Zimmerman case should have supported a conviction on murder/1, I can't say I'm optimistic about justice being done here, either.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
99. he saw what he thought was a shotgun, he had reasonable grounds to think his life was in danger.
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 03:04 PM
Jul 2013

that it wasn't a shotgun makes no difference, just as zimmerman's wrong assumptions & stalking of a teen on the way home from a trip to the store made no difference.

he was skeered, man!

 

ceonupe

(597 posts)
100. makes alot of diffrence
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 03:13 PM
Jul 2013

makes alot of difference.

lack of injuries and eye witness to say self defense is one major one.


why do you feel the need to tie this to the GZ case and not admit the facts are substantially different. I know i get it you think the jury was wrong in the GZ case but each case stands on its own merits. Travon for what ever reason assaulted GZ that went a long way towards GZ not guilty verdict. I wish the media would stop glossing over that point.

Ruby the Liberal

(26,216 posts)
101. I forgot about that story - North Georgia, right?
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 05:19 PM
Jul 2013

Did that end up being untrue or something? I thought the one kid confessed and told the police the older one did it. Did I miss something?

 

ceonupe

(597 posts)
105. One claims he was with the shooter and did not do it
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 07:10 PM
Jul 2013

But the state has charged them both and both admit to the robbery attempt.

And unfortunately the case is not made up they executed a 18month old at point blank range

Ruby the Liberal

(26,216 posts)
107. Okay - thanks
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 07:36 PM
Jul 2013

I thought maybe something came out that the mother was involved or some other heinous thought.

 

ceonupe

(597 posts)
108. Her only crime
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 07:42 PM
Jul 2013

Was being a what they thought was a helpless single white woman with a baby and not having money for them to steal.

This never made rev AL show and only made a slight mention on MSNBC when it first happened and was treated like a side news story even though it was in te middle of the gun control fight. It was almost like the case was made for msnbc admittedly anti gun stance. The fact it got little coverage shows me maybe te facts conflicted with the messages msnbc wanted to present at that time?

Number23

(24,544 posts)
112. The big, glaring, massive difference though
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:57 PM
Jul 2013

Is that I am willing to bet the sick assholes that killed that beautiful baby will go to jail. I would bet everything I own on it.

wercal

(1,370 posts)
3. Very different case
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:13 AM
Jul 2013

It will test the notion that one can claim self defense, merely if you 'think' you are in danger.

It could also be a true test of stand your ground, since presumably Dunn could have ran when he allegedly saw the shotgun.

Having heard vey little about this case, it looks like this guy will get convicted.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
32. good thing Herbert Mullin didn't operate in FL: he, too, genuinely thought the
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:01 AM
Jul 2013

lives of *millions* were in danger and he was *saving* them

of course, he was saving them from an earthquake by sacrificing people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Mullin

uponit7771

(90,225 posts)
50. This is false, the jury will have to deliberate on a ABSURD proffeing of "reasonable fear"
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:25 AM
Jul 2013

...just like they did in the TM case with Zimmermans superficial wounds and claims TM was going for a gun that couldn't be seen by even the police

wercal

(1,370 posts)
58. Sorry you can't see the differences in this case
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:45 AM
Jul 2013

For one thing, Dunn's fear is based on an imaginary shotgun. In the Z case, a half dozen witnesses, accompanied with 911 calls made it crystal clear that a life or death struggle was taking place. We can argue over who did what in the struggle, but it clearly happened. A little more substantial than an imaginary shotgun.

If a hallucination of a weapon establishes fear, there is no limit to self defense.

BTW, the case did not hinge on claims M went for Z's gun. The defense claimed that the weapon used against Z was a sidewalk...Omara even carried in a chunck of concrete for dramatic effect. I know Z talked about this during hs re-enactment with police...but Omara concentrated on the sidewalk. Precisely because the struggle for the gun seemed a little far fetched.

 

bigdarryl

(13,190 posts)
6. Unfortunately it's the same inept prosecutors office on this case as the Zimmerman case
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:26 AM
Jul 2013

Wouldn't surprise me in the least this guy gets off.Anyone know who his lawyer is

justanaverageguy

(186 posts)
7. I think he gets convicted
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:29 AM
Jul 2013

It's not good enough to think you are in fear of your life, you must be able to convince a jury that your fear was reasonable. Unlike the Zimmerman case where there was evidence to support his claim that he was getting his ass kicked and feared for his life. There is zero evidence here apparently that there was ever a shot gun. I think it will become extremely difficult to convince a jury here that his fear, even if it actually existed in his head, was reasonable.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
14. Disagree
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:42 AM
Jul 2013

If what bigdarryl says is true - this is an open and shut case. He walks.

That man truly believed he saw a shot gun and any good defense attorney can say that what his client says is true and that's that.


And a jury down there will believe it.


And what matters more? Black Americans everywhere believe it - so save the 'poor kid' shit - we know what THOSE people down THERE in that community are.

justanaverageguy

(186 posts)
24. Ask yourself this
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:52 AM
Jul 2013

If you were on the jury. Would you say his belief that there was a shotgun was reasonable given that there was in fact no shotgun or anything that resembled a shotgun in the vehicle?

It doesn't matter how much he believed there was shotgun, it matters if a jury accepts that it was reasonable that the thought there was a shotgun vs. his desire to stay out of prison.

I admit anything can happen on a jury, but unlike the GZ case there appears to be zero evidence to support the defendant's claim here. Like it or not there was evidence to support GZ's claim. Now reasonable people may disagree on the creditability the evidence should have been given, but it was there. In this Jacksonville case, it appears to simply not be there at all.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
28. I would HAVE to believe him
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:57 AM
Jul 2013

Because that's what the law says.

He says it (the privileged class member) so it is.

justanaverageguy

(186 posts)
44. are you being sarcastic??
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:19 AM
Jul 2013

You don't HAVE to believe him. Jury's are the determiners of fact. The jury didn't have to believe GZ either. Unfortunately they apparently did after considering the evidence and arguments put in front of them. But they didn't HAVE to.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
53. No - I'm serious
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:28 AM
Jul 2013

The all white jury in Florida who will inevitably be picked to for this case of a white man who truly in the depths of his soul believed his life was in danger at the hands of a young black 'thug' is going to 100% say he was not guilty.

They will believe him. Not you. Not a prosecutor. And sure as shit the living black witnesses in the SUV are not going to be believed. Know this - all the defense as to do is point out that any of those young men listened to a rap song once and picked their nose in the 1st grade and bam! Evil vicious thugalicious.


And neither of my nephews will be caught dead in that state because well - two young black men in Florida - well let's just say I know what those people think of my flesh and blood. And they WILL be caught dead in Florida.

Stop trying to push this rainbows and sunshine and justice prevails in Florida meme.

I think black folks need to be prepared for another 'get in your place' message from Florida.

Robb

(39,665 posts)
18. "I don't know if they were trying to stash something in the car...."
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:46 AM
Jul 2013

Mark my words, this will be huge in the prosecution's case:

http://www.news4jax.com/news/witness-says-he-saw-teens-get-out-of-suv-after-shooting/-/475880/20790378/-/1g82ut/-/index.html

"One was on his cellphone looking back, and it looked like they were pretty much just -- I don't know if they were trying to stash something in the car or look for something or what, but it looked like they got out, kind of brushed themselves off and then they got back in," the witness told a 911 dispatcher.

That comment, suggesting the teens could have stashed a weapon, is likely what defense attorneys for murder suspect Michael Dunn will latch onto in this case. Dunn is accused of firing into the teens' SUV several times during a dispute over loud music.

lynne

(3,118 posts)
10. Why haven't we heard more about this situation?
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:40 AM
Jul 2013

Where's the media been on this one? Just heard about it yesterday. Yes, it's an apples and oranges situation as compared to Martin and Zimmerman. This guy won't be getting off.

CanonRay

(14,036 posts)
11. Future defense attorney: He thought he saw a shotgun
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:41 AM
Jul 2013

so he thought his life was in danger so it's self defense. Verdict of future all white jury: Not guilty. Here we fucking go again. I wouldn't go to Floriduh on a dare, it's way beyond my nutjob threshold.

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
15. Exactly
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:43 AM
Jul 2013

Same community - all white jury.

The victim will be painted as a thug who deserved it and had it coming.

Case closed. He walks.

Let's move on as a site.

 

matthews

(497 posts)
106. I've always said I wouldn't go either - even if
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 07:27 PM
Jul 2013

they deeded Epcot Center, the Everglades, and Disneyworld over to me. There is not enough of anything to make me make that trip.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
19. I wonder how many went hunting this weekend
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:46 AM
Jul 2013

for their own black males to kill? I just had the most repulsive conversation with a gun nut Z apologist. I find the absolutely disregard for Martin's life and those of Zimmerman's future victims absolutely unfathomable. More than ever, I am sure that gun nuts are the greatest danger our nation faces. What makes them so dangerous is they believe they are ENTITLED to kill.

marble falls

(56,353 posts)
21. With the exception of no prior call to the police, its pretty close. He's guilty and after....
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:50 AM
Jul 2013

this weekend I am not sure that he'll be convicted.

MrScorpio

(73,626 posts)
22. This Dunn asshole fled from the scene after he shot those kids up
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 09:50 AM
Jul 2013

He drove up to them and then started the argument before he pulled his gat and started blasting away.

Dunn is guilty as fuck.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
60. What the white jury will see: "the kids had a shotgun, and after
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:51 AM
Jul 2013

Mr. Dunn fled in fear for his life, they had time to dispose of the weapon."

Plus, they were playing loud rap music, black black blackity black.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
72. Not surprised at all, and I'm guessing they'll be the first ones to celebrate...
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:04 AM
Jul 2013

and LOL at all the DUers who think Florida jurors will all of a sudden grow a fucking brain...

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
75. Yep, with the group mod leading the way. His standard:
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:10 AM
Jul 2013
The question is "where the kids asshole enough to get physically threatening?"

I doubt it, but it's not impossible


Actually, it is impossible when they never even got out of the fucking car, gun-for-brains.\


More:

Or if the response to your request makes you scared enough to start shooting...

...maybe the problem is the responder.


I don't know how this transpired. It can, literally, go either way.

What there a shotgun? I don't know.

Was the history of the men in the car such that it's likely that they would have a shotgun? That, after the shooting, they would ditch the shotgun to protect themselves?

I don't know.



Was the history of the guy with the handgun such that he was likely to open up without provocation? Was he likely to be so fearful that he would over-react and shoot at unarmed men?

I don't know.


Just working himself into "reasonable doubt" formulation. Desperate they are.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
91. They enjoy defending their own to the bitter end
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 12:22 PM
Jul 2013

Because they can't ever entertain the concept of an irresponsible gun owner or black males who aren't assholes who simply get what's coming to them...

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
81. Oh wow
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:23 AM
Jul 2013

geek - thanks for hunting that up. I'll be bookmarking this thread and that one. Everything gets illuminated - eh?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
82. even knowing that THE KIDS NEVER LEFT THE CAR, here's the Gungeoneer standard:
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:31 AM
Jul 2013
The question is "where the kids asshole enough to get physically threatening?"

I doubt it, but it's not impossible


In Gungeoneer world, it's possible for black kids to be so 'asshole enough to get physically threatening" to a white gun owner that he's justified in shooting them without them even leaving the car.


Number23

(24,544 posts)
111. "WHAT IF IT WAS JUSTIFIED?" Holy damn shit.
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:52 PM
Jul 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=88864


However, I do know that there is nothing inherently wrong with asking somebody to turn down their music. It's not a "confrontation", and the fact that you're using such language means you're subconciously turning the guy into the aggressor and thus the guilty party here.


Oh MY GOD!!!! How the fuck is that pos NOT the goddamned agressor??! UNFreakingREAL!!!!! The DEPTHS that some will sink to to forever portray white people as the victims even when it could NOT BE MORE PLAIN that they are not is something I will never EVER be able to understand.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
35. Different case. Different facts.
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:03 AM
Jul 2013

From what's been reported, this is a much easier row to hoe for the prosecution. There was no physical struggle, and there was no gun.

mountain grammy

(26,568 posts)
42. The racists are celebrating! It's open season! This guy will walk..
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:17 AM
Jul 2013

Absolutely NOTHING surprises me anymore, especially when it concerns the South, and most especially Florida.

angrychair

(8,592 posts)
49. talked about this case since it happened
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:24 AM
Jul 2013

but as much as I would like to see him go to jail...he won't. I know that area and I doubt ANY jury from that part of FL would send him to jail.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
55. He'll walk. White jurors will have an image of a car full of black teens,
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:31 AM
Jul 2013

and will refuse to find beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't fear for his life and that he's lying about the shotgun.


avebury

(10,946 posts)
56. It sounds like the police did a better job investigating
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:32 AM
Jul 2013

this shooting then the Sanford Police. Evidentally, this defendent was not already buddies with the cops.

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
57. Disgusting from the links comments page
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:35 AM
Jul 2013

Here:



"Where in the nation can he get fair trial ? They already blasted the teen pic on every black article they can find. Showing him as innocent and murdered by an "evil" white man. Meanwhile when black on black shootings occurr there never is any outrage or mass anger over it. Hell might even be 15 witnesses but they all forget what happened suddenly. "

What the hell does black on black crime have to do with this case? There poster here is painting the victim as a possible thug/gangbanger - and quite frankly it makes me want to puke but this is the perception a lot of people have of ALL young black men.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
94. yeah, it's par for the course
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 02:25 PM
Jul 2013

and that whole "WHY DONT YOU PEOPLE EVER CARE ABOUT BLACKS KILLING BLACKS!!!!!!111111!!" -talking point gets heavy play here...

This forum stopped making sense to me a long time ago...

 

Boom Sound 416

(4,185 posts)
63. I believed Zim should have been found not guilty
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:54 AM
Jul 2013

This guy is going down:

Three other teens survived. And as many have said about the Zim trial, that the only two real witnesses are both silent.

Not the case here. It's one word against three and no gun found as the shooter claimed.

He's fucked and rightfully so.

Plus, he's charged with attempted murder for the other three. If the state fails murder 1 on the deceased victim, it's case is seemingly very strong for attempted murder.

One note on Florida. We don't have a monopoly on racism or stupidity.

 

LaydeeBug

(10,291 posts)
71. This is why we need to teach our minority children to carry and AIM...
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 10:59 AM
Jul 2013

If they can't get away with saying the sidewalk is a weapon, and thus a fair fight, they will insist that they are carrying PHANTOM weapons, and thus, shoot to kill.

It's a horrible, ugly, convoluted truth that I *wish* weren't so, but it is.

It's open season on our minority children and while all of us were busy just living our lives, cretins sneaked in and instituted loopholes that help these assholes get away with it.

Here's *another* ugly truth: the minute one of these kids stands their ground and drops one of these motherfuckers, all of those loopholes will be closed. Watch.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
77. Too many witnesses
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:11 AM
Jul 2013

besides the other teens in car, this was in a gas station and other people saw it. One man interviewed said Davis got out of his car and went screaming over to their car with his fists raised in the air. I live in Florida and saw this on the news.

Now you not only cannot walk down a street, apparently loud music in your own car in a public place can get you shot too. Ain't Florida fun?



 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
83. The defense will claim that the kids disposed of the shotgun
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:32 AM
Jul 2013

before the cops came; the jury will nod their heads in agreement; he will walk.

This is Floriduh, after all.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
84. Or, make the case about whether
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 11:33 AM
Jul 2013
the kids asshole enough to get physically threatening?"



The DU Gungeon standard.

uponit7771

(90,225 posts)
90. They can't, the cameras were on...BUT in a Man slaughter case the JURY can ONLY deliberate on what
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 12:19 PM
Jul 2013

....happened at the time of the shooting...not before....not after....

Or at least it's my understanding those are the insutructions the jury was given during the TM case.

anomiep

(153 posts)
98. Consider
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 03:01 PM
Jul 2013

In Zimmerman's case, the governer ordered that the grand jury be skipped - possibly because on the case they had, they thought it was probable a grand jury would no-bill.

In this case, the grand jury indicted.

They are different cases. I would suggest that the people who are suggesting he will walk check that claim by seeing what actually happens.

Me, I think he's going to get convicted, based on what I've seen.


Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
104. I assume nothing after that bullshit from Saturday...
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 06:01 PM
Jul 2013

Wait until the gun community throws their political muscle behind his defense...

anomiep

(153 posts)
110. I didn't ask anyone to assume anything
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 08:09 PM
Jul 2013

I asked that people consider the differences in the case and check their opinions against the future outcome of the case.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
102. Oh dear, he 'thought' he saw a shotgun
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 05:21 PM
Jul 2013

which means he will get an acquittal. Evidently you can imagine things and the state will accept them as fact.

kalisto2010

(64 posts)
103. Just when I thought the Freepers couldn't be more demonic.
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 05:58 PM
Jul 2013

Just read the responses in this thread. No matter what, the Black person is always at fault, always a gangster, and deserved what he got. And ofcourse they're giving the White guy EVERY benefit of the doubt. Amazing how hatred of another race could warp your brain. Here's a few.



[quote]33 posted on 11/28/2012 4:18:10 AM by Venturer

That is why I couldn’t care less why this guy shot this kid; let somebody else care. I wouldn’t do it or defend it, but I literally couldn’t care less. It is like reading about 2 life forms on Jupiter battling it out[/quote]


[quote]55 posted on 11/28/2012 9:23:46 AM by patriotsblood

It wasn’t self-defense. It was a public service.[/quote]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2963622/posts?q=1&;page=101

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