General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBlack, 17, and Shot Dead by Concealed Carry Permit Holder in Florida (spoiler: not Zimmerman)
Michael Dunn to go on trial for murder of Jordan Davis in September
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- The man who claimed self-defense in shooting Jordan Davis to death will go on trial in September.
A judge set a trial date of September 23 for Michael Dunn. He is accused of the first-degree murder of 17-year-old Jordan Davis last year.
(snip)
Police say Dunn got into an argument over loud music with a SUV full of teenagers, including Davis.
Dunn asked the teens to turn down their music. He told police the teenagers flashed a shotgun before he opened fire on their SUV, killing Davis.
Police never found a weapon in the teenager's SUV.
Read More: http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Michael-Dunn-to-go-on-trial-for-murder-of-Jordan/kRtNIA25sUipqla_kJlf-Q.cspx
ceonupe
(597 posts)Very different facts in this case.
Almost like the freepers posting about the 2 teen black boys who shot a mother and executed her baby in a stroller point blank.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Again - Just like Zimmerman - this guy is going to claim reasonable fear.
The prosecutors will not be able to prove he didn't fear for his life. . . i.e. He saw a shot gun in HIS head and that is ALLLLLLLLLLLL that matters those Nogoodnik Black Teenagers are always up to no good .
He'll walk.
Now - I'm not one for 'boycotting' the state of Florida - but over my dead body will my nephews ever step foot in that state. One 17 and one 20 - there's nothing they need there that they can't get at the Jersey shore or Princeton U as young black men.
Until I can feel assured they won't get shot willy nilly for shits and giggles - no need for them to be in that low element.
erpowers
(9,350 posts)The evidence surrounding this case is different from the Zimmerman case. In this case the young man was just sitting in a car. The man who did the shooting claimed he saw a gun, but no gun was found in the car. In addition, I think there are witnesses who can give an opposing view in the case from that of the shooter.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)He's going down, as well he should. Unless he successfully cops an insanity plea.
The fear has to "reasonable". This was not a reasonable fear, even if he did have it, and I doubt it.
Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)two kids...minding their own business.
How is this "that different"?
erpowers
(9,350 posts)Due to a lack of witnesses George Zimmerman could claim he had been attacked and feared for his life. In the second case a guy got out of his vehicle, told kids to turn down their music, and then for some reason started shooting indiscriminately at the vehicle in which the young man was sitting. In the second case the self defense claim will most likely not stand.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Are young, black thugs . They were in the SUV with the other thug and all it takes is an all white jury and a couple of good defense attorneys and the case and circumstances are exactly the same.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)we have no doubt that he would be found not guilty if there were no witnesses to counter his claim of self defense. In that case he would have never even been charged.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)I'm black in America and I'm onto the 'con'.
Kid is black.
Guy is white.
Same community.
Same white jury.
Guy walks.
Case closed. Move on. And I was aware of this long before it was posted at DU. Zimmerman set a precedent.
Go read ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL of the Zimmerman supporters posts the past few weeks. Many of them truly supported the belief that Zimmerman felt his life was in danger.
Head being smashed on a concrete sidewalk 30 times - versus a REAL LIVE SHOT GUN SIGHTING.
He (Dunn) truly BELIEVED he saw a shot gun.
Why defend him or say it's different.
He BELIEVED it and proceeded accordingly.
And if he had just stepped on the 'gas' and driven away - whose to say the 'not an angel himself' wouldn't have just blown him away as he was driving away. I can hear his attorney's now - But he believed it - so it was.
Case closed.
That area of Florida is making quite a name for itself you know . . . And well - 'we' seem them for what they are. You need to accept that - because I have a REASONABLE fear that they will never give justice to a black victim 'period' in that neighborhood.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...my hair was too long. "Hey girlie, girlie..come over here for a minute." (4 grown men)
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Lucky Luciano
(11,242 posts)anneboleyn
(5,611 posts)And "I did of course have a gun so that was convenient!" SARCASM ALERT.
1monster
(11,012 posts)the first reaction to this news story was outrage.
I don't think he will walk.
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/black-florida-teen-jordan-davis-killed-46-year-old-michael-dunn-sound-familiar
As reported by First Coast News:
Rhonda Rouer tells police when they parked next to a car with loud music at the Gate Station on Southside Boulevard November 23rd, Michael Dunn said "I hate that thug music" as he had said to her before. She went inside to buy wine and chips, and heard several shots fired while she was inside.
"He said 'I feared for my life.' I said 'why?' He said 'they threatened to kill me.'"
Police: "And he also told you at some point they were advancing?"
Rouer: "Correct."
Police: "But he did not elaborate on what advancing meant?"
Rouer: "Exactly."
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Have they started digging up some dirt on the victim yet?
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Just look at the picture in the OP (not attacking ROB - attacking the media's side by side). . .
Here are the attacks:
*He's black*
He was wearing a sweat shirt.
He was wearing a hat that said 'obey'. That's code for 'kill whitey with a shot gun'
*He's black*
He had not one but TWO earrings - the mark of a sociopathic serial killer.
He's 17.
*He's black*
Slam dunk for the defense and all white jury. You mark my words bluetires.
Psst - outside of the African American group - do you think I need to pepper this with a bunch of or will folks 'get it'?
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Black rapper once said the word cop - and the victim one listened to rap music.
Case closed!
zeemike
(18,998 posts)It's the new racism come to call.
And we will see more of this I am sure, because the purpose is to make black people afraid so that they will stay in their place...just like the Jim Crow laws of the past.
i lived in Florida for many years, and there are racist there that rival Mississippi....and they did not just disappear when the civil right act was signed into law...they want the old south to rise again.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)It is utterly irrelevant whether he feared for his life. The question is whether a reasonable person would have under the circumstances.
It is a reasonability standard, not a state of mind defense.
Autumn Colors
(2,379 posts)It may be a reasonability standard, but during the trial, it is the jury who decides what a reasonable person would have feared in those circumstances. If it's an all-white jury from the same town then those people may have the same mindset about blacks as the shooter. If that's the case, then that jury will side with the shooter ... just like this jury did with Zimmerman.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)"Can I make a jury believe reasonable doubt?"
(just to paraphrase a talking point from the Zimmerman cheerleading brigade)
gopiscrap
(23,673 posts)prayers and good wishes for your nephews!
Robb
(39,665 posts)Only 2 out of 10 arrested concealed carry permit holders end up convicted of the crimes for which they were arrested; the overwhelming majority either beat the rap completely (46%) or are convicted of lesser crimes (32%).
ceonupe
(597 posts)What are the facts of those cases.
I know one thing all shootings of robbers during B&E / home invasion and active assaults with witnesses or injury I will call clean shootings
hack89
(39,171 posts)ownership or possession."
Interesting tidbit.
7962
(11,841 posts)anomiep
(153 posts)Without comparison data, for all I know that's in line with the rates for the general population.
Robb
(39,665 posts)That includes misdemeanors; stick with felonies and the numbers are considerably higher.
But I don't think a cause has been established for why the rates are different.
As far as the OP case, based on what I know, he'll likely get convicted, rightly, because based on the information I have (newspaper reports and such) his fear was not reasonable.
I'm not sure it's making clear whether or not that 70% includes people being convicted of lesser felonies than they were charged with.
If that is the case, you'd be comparing 78% vs. 70%
The number of convictions of CHL holders is far, far lower than the general population, so this would tend to indicate that the arrest rate is likely also far, far lower.
And this points out another problem with your initial statement. Your initial claim appears to be that statistically he won't be convicted - that may be true for the crime for which he was arrested/charged, but your own statistics show only a 22% chance that he walks scot free.
Anansi1171
(793 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)that was never found. And they were arguing too. But about that other story, are you saying thats not what happened? Because I never saw anything about the facts of that case changing. (I live a few hrs from where that happened) Then again, a story can be front page, and a "correction" will be on page 2 in a little box at the bottom of the page.
ceonupe
(597 posts)CNN story here
link
There are other sites with more information but the story goes.
The teens profiled the victim as an easy target. She did kit have money they shot her and the baby point blank. Right in middle of the street. Not much coverage here on DU or national media.
What's crazy is how young the killers are.
7962
(11,841 posts)that I had always heard was not the true story. When you said "freepers", I figured you meant they were posting something that was "less than accurate". I imagine the younger one wanted to impress the older one.
The thing is, it astounds me how I've read so many comments here about the "war on blacks', yet black on white murders FAR FAR outweigh white on black murders. And have for years. With blacks making up only 13% of the population.
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts). . . as one who believes the facts in the Zimmerman case should have supported a conviction on murder/1, I can't say I'm optimistic about justice being done here, either.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)that it wasn't a shotgun makes no difference, just as zimmerman's wrong assumptions & stalking of a teen on the way home from a trip to the store made no difference.
he was skeered, man!
ceonupe
(597 posts)makes alot of difference.
lack of injuries and eye witness to say self defense is one major one.
why do you feel the need to tie this to the GZ case and not admit the facts are substantially different. I know i get it you think the jury was wrong in the GZ case but each case stands on its own merits. Travon for what ever reason assaulted GZ that went a long way towards GZ not guilty verdict. I wish the media would stop glossing over that point.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,216 posts)Did that end up being untrue or something? I thought the one kid confessed and told the police the older one did it. Did I miss something?
ceonupe
(597 posts)But the state has charged them both and both admit to the robbery attempt.
And unfortunately the case is not made up they executed a 18month old at point blank range
Ruby the Liberal
(26,216 posts)I thought maybe something came out that the mother was involved or some other heinous thought.
ceonupe
(597 posts)Was being a what they thought was a helpless single white woman with a baby and not having money for them to steal.
This never made rev AL show and only made a slight mention on MSNBC when it first happened and was treated like a side news story even though it was in te middle of the gun control fight. It was almost like the case was made for msnbc admittedly anti gun stance. The fact it got little coverage shows me maybe te facts conflicted with the messages msnbc wanted to present at that time?
Number23
(24,544 posts)Is that I am willing to bet the sick assholes that killed that beautiful baby will go to jail. I would bet everything I own on it.
wercal
(1,370 posts)It will test the notion that one can claim self defense, merely if you 'think' you are in danger.
It could also be a true test of stand your ground, since presumably Dunn could have ran when he allegedly saw the shotgun.
Having heard vey little about this case, it looks like this guy will get convicted.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)lives of *millions* were in danger and he was *saving* them
of course, he was saving them from an earthquake by sacrificing people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Mullin
anomiep
(153 posts)because I don't, and it has to be reasonable.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)...just like they did in the TM case with Zimmermans superficial wounds and claims TM was going for a gun that couldn't be seen by even the police
wercal
(1,370 posts)For one thing, Dunn's fear is based on an imaginary shotgun. In the Z case, a half dozen witnesses, accompanied with 911 calls made it crystal clear that a life or death struggle was taking place. We can argue over who did what in the struggle, but it clearly happened. A little more substantial than an imaginary shotgun.
If a hallucination of a weapon establishes fear, there is no limit to self defense.
BTW, the case did not hinge on claims M went for Z's gun. The defense claimed that the weapon used against Z was a sidewalk...Omara even carried in a chunck of concrete for dramatic effect. I know Z talked about this during hs re-enactment with police...but Omara concentrated on the sidewalk. Precisely because the struggle for the gun seemed a little far fetched.
bigdarryl
(13,190 posts)Wouldn't surprise me in the least this guy gets off.Anyone know who his lawyer is
justanaverageguy
(186 posts)It's not good enough to think you are in fear of your life, you must be able to convince a jury that your fear was reasonable. Unlike the Zimmerman case where there was evidence to support his claim that he was getting his ass kicked and feared for his life. There is zero evidence here apparently that there was ever a shot gun. I think it will become extremely difficult to convince a jury here that his fear, even if it actually existed in his head, was reasonable.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)If what bigdarryl says is true - this is an open and shut case. He walks.
That man truly believed he saw a shot gun and any good defense attorney can say that what his client says is true and that's that.
And a jury down there will believe it.
And what matters more? Black Americans everywhere believe it - so save the 'poor kid' shit - we know what THOSE people down THERE in that community are.
justanaverageguy
(186 posts)If you were on the jury. Would you say his belief that there was a shotgun was reasonable given that there was in fact no shotgun or anything that resembled a shotgun in the vehicle?
It doesn't matter how much he believed there was shotgun, it matters if a jury accepts that it was reasonable that the thought there was a shotgun vs. his desire to stay out of prison.
I admit anything can happen on a jury, but unlike the GZ case there appears to be zero evidence to support the defendant's claim here. Like it or not there was evidence to support GZ's claim. Now reasonable people may disagree on the creditability the evidence should have been given, but it was there. In this Jacksonville case, it appears to simply not be there at all.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Because that's what the law says.
He says it (the privileged class member) so it is.
justanaverageguy
(186 posts)You don't HAVE to believe him. Jury's are the determiners of fact. The jury didn't have to believe GZ either. Unfortunately they apparently did after considering the evidence and arguments put in front of them. But they didn't HAVE to.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)The all white jury in Florida who will inevitably be picked to for this case of a white man who truly in the depths of his soul believed his life was in danger at the hands of a young black 'thug' is going to 100% say he was not guilty.
They will believe him. Not you. Not a prosecutor. And sure as shit the living black witnesses in the SUV are not going to be believed. Know this - all the defense as to do is point out that any of those young men listened to a rap song once and picked their nose in the 1st grade and bam! Evil vicious thugalicious.
And neither of my nephews will be caught dead in that state because well - two young black men in Florida - well let's just say I know what those people think of my flesh and blood. And they WILL be caught dead in Florida.
Stop trying to push this rainbows and sunshine and justice prevails in Florida meme.
I think black folks need to be prepared for another 'get in your place' message from Florida.
Robb
(39,665 posts)Mark my words, this will be huge in the prosecution's case:
http://www.news4jax.com/news/witness-says-he-saw-teens-get-out-of-suv-after-shooting/-/475880/20790378/-/1g82ut/-/index.html
That comment, suggesting the teens could have stashed a weapon, is likely what defense attorneys for murder suspect Michael Dunn will latch onto in this case. Dunn is accused of firing into the teens' SUV several times during a dispute over loud music.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)lynne
(3,118 posts)Where's the media been on this one? Just heard about it yesterday. Yes, it's an apples and oranges situation as compared to Martin and Zimmerman. This guy won't be getting off.
CanonRay
(14,036 posts)so he thought his life was in danger so it's self defense. Verdict of future all white jury: Not guilty. Here we fucking go again. I wouldn't go to Floriduh on a dare, it's way beyond my nutjob threshold.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)Same community - all white jury.
The victim will be painted as a thug who deserved it and had it coming.
Case closed. He walks.
Let's move on as a site.
matthews
(497 posts)they deeded Epcot Center, the Everglades, and Disneyworld over to me. There is not enough of anything to make me make that trip.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)BainsBane
(53,001 posts)for their own black males to kill? I just had the most repulsive conversation with a gun nut Z apologist. I find the absolutely disregard for Martin's life and those of Zimmerman's future victims absolutely unfathomable. More than ever, I am sure that gun nuts are the greatest danger our nation faces. What makes them so dangerous is they believe they are ENTITLED to kill.
marble falls
(56,353 posts)this weekend I am not sure that he'll be convicted.
MrScorpio
(73,626 posts)He drove up to them and then started the argument before he pulled his gat and started blasting away.
Dunn is guilty as fuck.
JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)But I just don't believe the jury down there will see that.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Mr. Dunn fled in fear for his life, they had time to dispose of the weapon."
Plus, they were playing loud rap music, black black blackity black.
MrScorpio
(73,626 posts)Maybe George "Lucas" Zimmerman can write the screenplay
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Get one Gungeoneer-type on that jury, and he walks.
MrScorpio
(73,626 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and LOL at all the DUers who think Florida jurors will all of a sudden grow a fucking brain...
Robb
(39,665 posts)A little sunlight.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I doubt it, but it's not impossible
Actually, it is impossible when they never even got out of the fucking car, gun-for-brains.\
More:
...maybe the problem is the responder.
I don't know how this transpired. It can, literally, go either way.
What there a shotgun? I don't know.
Was the history of the men in the car such that it's likely that they would have a shotgun? That, after the shooting, they would ditch the shotgun to protect themselves?
I don't know.
Was the history of the guy with the handgun such that he was likely to open up without provocation? Was he likely to be so fearful that he would over-react and shoot at unarmed men?
I don't know.
Just working himself into "reasonable doubt" formulation. Desperate they are.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Because they can't ever entertain the concept of an irresponsible gun owner or black males who aren't assholes who simply get what's coming to them...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,681 posts)geek - thanks for hunting that up. I'll be bookmarking this thread and that one. Everything gets illuminated - eh?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I doubt it, but it's not impossible
In Gungeoneer world, it's possible for black kids to be so 'asshole enough to get physically threatening" to a white gun owner that he's justified in shooting them without them even leaving the car.
Number23
(24,544 posts)However, I do know that there is nothing inherently wrong with asking somebody to turn down their music. It's not a "confrontation", and the fact that you're using such language means you're subconciously turning the guy into the aggressor and thus the guilty party here.
Oh MY GOD!!!! How the fuck is that pos NOT the goddamned agressor??! UNFreakingREAL!!!!! The DEPTHS that some will sink to to forever portray white people as the victims even when it could NOT BE MORE PLAIN that they are not is something I will never EVER be able to understand.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)From what's been reported, this is a much easier row to hoe for the prosecution. There was no physical struggle, and there was no gun.
yourout
(7,520 posts)Blackford
(289 posts)This is in Jacksonville, after all.
mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)Absolutely NOTHING surprises me anymore, especially when it concerns the South, and most especially Florida.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)angrychair
(8,592 posts)but as much as I would like to see him go to jail...he won't. I know that area and I doubt ANY jury from that part of FL would send him to jail.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and will refuse to find beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't fear for his life and that he's lying about the shotgun.
avebury
(10,946 posts)this shooting then the Sanford Police. Evidentally, this defendent was not already buddies with the cops.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Here:
"Where in the nation can he get fair trial ? They already blasted the teen pic on every black article they can find. Showing him as innocent and murdered by an "evil" white man. Meanwhile when black on black shootings occurr there never is any outrage or mass anger over it. Hell might even be 15 witnesses but they all forget what happened suddenly. "
What the hell does black on black crime have to do with this case? There poster here is painting the victim as a possible thug/gangbanger - and quite frankly it makes me want to puke but this is the perception a lot of people have of ALL young black men.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and that whole "WHY DONT YOU PEOPLE EVER CARE ABOUT BLACKS KILLING BLACKS!!!!!!111111!!" -talking point gets heavy play here...
This forum stopped making sense to me a long time ago...
skeewee08
(1,983 posts)Jordan was sitting in the middle and got shot.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)This guy is going down:
Three other teens survived. And as many have said about the Zim trial, that the only two real witnesses are both silent.
Not the case here. It's one word against three and no gun found as the shooter claimed.
He's fucked and rightfully so.
Plus, he's charged with attempted murder for the other three. If the state fails murder 1 on the deceased victim, it's case is seemingly very strong for attempted murder.
One note on Florida. We don't have a monopoly on racism or stupidity.
get off if jury same composition as zimpigs.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)If they can't get away with saying the sidewalk is a weapon, and thus a fair fight, they will insist that they are carrying PHANTOM weapons, and thus, shoot to kill.
It's a horrible, ugly, convoluted truth that I *wish* weren't so, but it is.
It's open season on our minority children and while all of us were busy just living our lives, cretins sneaked in and instituted loopholes that help these assholes get away with it.
Here's *another* ugly truth: the minute one of these kids stands their ground and drops one of these motherfuckers, all of those loopholes will be closed. Watch.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)besides the other teens in car, this was in a gas station and other people saw it. One man interviewed said Davis got out of his car and went screaming over to their car with his fists raised in the air. I live in Florida and saw this on the news.
Now you not only cannot walk down a street, apparently loud music in your own car in a public place can get you shot too. Ain't Florida fun?
bowens43
(16,064 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)before the cops came; the jury will nod their heads in agreement; he will walk.
This is Floriduh, after all.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The DU Gungeon standard.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)....happened at the time of the shooting...not before....not after....
Or at least it's my understanding those are the insutructions the jury was given during the TM case.
Turbineguy
(37,206 posts)make sure there are no surviving witnesses.
In Zimmerman's case, the governer ordered that the grand jury be skipped - possibly because on the case they had, they thought it was probable a grand jury would no-bill.
In this case, the grand jury indicted.
They are different cases. I would suggest that the people who are suggesting he will walk check that claim by seeing what actually happens.
Me, I think he's going to get convicted, based on what I've seen.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Wait until the gun community throws their political muscle behind his defense...
anomiep
(153 posts)I asked that people consider the differences in the case and check their opinions against the future outcome of the case.
Rex
(65,616 posts)which means he will get an acquittal. Evidently you can imagine things and the state will accept them as fact.
kalisto2010
(64 posts)Just read the responses in this thread. No matter what, the Black person is always at fault, always a gangster, and deserved what he got. And ofcourse they're giving the White guy EVERY benefit of the doubt. Amazing how hatred of another race could warp your brain. Here's a few.
[quote]33 posted on 11/28/2012 4:18:10 AM by Venturer
That is why I couldnt care less why this guy shot this kid; let somebody else care. I wouldnt do it or defend it, but I literally couldnt care less. It is like reading about 2 life forms on Jupiter battling it out[/quote]
[quote]55 posted on 11/28/2012 9:23:46 AM by patriotsblood
It wasnt self-defense. It was a public service.[/quote]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2963622/posts?q=1&;page=101