The black kid hung around too long.

[Raven]

Because he did, he's dead. That's what I took from the Defense closing today. Defense atty sat down for 4 minutes to dramatize how much time Martin had to run from his attacker. He didn't move fast enough, apparently. If this defense succeeds, we have taken a leap back into the 1950's. Hey you black kids, hurry along! We have replaced lynchings of the '50's and '60's with "Stand your Ground". I want to be sick tonight. I put my hopes on the mothers on that jury...on all the women on that jury.

[curlyred]

1. I'm with you

Scary times, these.

[elehhhhna]

107. women and children need to learn their place in the new old america

[The Magistrate]

2. Indeed, Ma'am: 'Don't Let The Sun Set On You In This County, ******'

[Nay]

101. Sundown towns, indeed. nt

[Blackford]

3. Have faith. At least five mothers sit on that jury

and will decide the fate of a man who stalked and murdered a child.

[Raven]

4. I hope so! n/t

[Honeycombe8]

9. Zimmerman is a son, too, don't forget. Would one of those mothers' sons make a mistake...

and risk going to prison for life?

Just sayin'....the sword cuts both ways.

But I do wonder why the defense chose that many mothers. I do think they'll be more sympathetic to a younger son than an older one.

I wouldn't call TM a child, though. That's over-reaching. A 17 year old is a minor, but at that age they're not called children any more.

[Blackford]

12. I diasgree with you and will leave it at that. n/t

[Ilsa]

13. True, but most people accept that

Someone GZ's age should be more mature, thoughtful, and less reactive than someone's TM's age.

[Honeycombe8]

21. Absolutely. I think so, too. TM was only 17. I remember being 17....not exactly mature.nt

[bushisanidiot]

16. He was barely 17

Still a kid. His voice wasnt even completely changed yet.. Barely had any facial hair yet.
Had his earbuds in when he was attacked.
No stains on his knees indicating he had straddled z.
No zimmerman dna found on trayvon.
No injuries found on hands of trayvon indicating force was used by him.
The lust goes on...

[slaveringpalavering]

48. Your info is way off

Martin both grass stains on his knees and injuries to his hands. Both medical examiners testified that those injuries were consistent with punching someone or something hard.

[bushisanidiot]

49. Wrong. The coroner said there were no scrapes, cuts or bruises on trayvons hands.

And the picture of trayvon laying on his back CLEARLY shows no grass stains on his knees. If there are stains, they are very faint which would be inconsistent with zimmermans story that trayvon was on his knees.

And there was ABSOLUTELY NO DNA ON TRAYVON THAT WAS FOREIGN TO TRAYVON.

[slaveringpalavering]

52. What coroner?

It was noted in Martin's autopsy report that he had injuries to his knuckles. The medical examiner who performed that autopsy testified that they were consistent with hitting someone.

And do a search for Martin's pants. You can very clearly see grass stains.

[ReRe]

55. It was a little scratch on one of his forefingers.

Where are you guys getting your facts? I was watching the trial when that was discussed.

[chillfactor]

73. if you reached any harder or longer

your straw arms would fall off..

[chillfactor]

75. Trayon had one teeny weeny injury on his left finger..

his LEFT finger and it did not so much as break the skin........

and Trayvon was RIGHT-HANDED..if I was going to beat on someone I would certainly use my dominant hand..

and I watched the trial every day....word-for-word....and saw Trayon's PANTS in the courtroom..not pictures..the real deal...NO GRASS STAINS ON THE KNEES!

Got it now?

[chillfactor]

88. no injuries because there was no beating.....

and what gaping cut.....a teeny weeny under-the-skin injury.....

you can twist yourself into as many pretzels as you want.....the FACTS do not back you up....

Zimmerman told five different stories of what happened that night..and said it was "God's will"......God does not condone shooting unarmed kids...

[bushisanidiot]

113. I didnt realze there was one little scratch found.

There would have been more damage done o his hands if zimmermans stories were anywhere near true.

The facts do not support zs claims. He would have gotten a concussion yet his doctor said his injuries were minor and idnt need treating. Tht oesnt sound anywhere near life threatening injuries to me.

The asshole had his gun out when he confronted trayon.

And trayvon, barely being 17, screamed like a kid brecause he was a kid, when he was trying to get away from the creepy man who was following him with a gun in his hand.

Its too bad that trayvon didnt get a chance to at least punch zimmerman before he was murdered.

No dna evidence of trayvon touching zimmerman proves zimmerman has been lying since day 1.

[libodem]

122. I want you to do a little experiment for us

You would be perfect. The human head weights about 10 pounds. I don't know about the neck and shoulders but maybe 5 more pounds. A bowling ball weights about ten? But go find like a 13 pounder. Wet it down and head out to the sidewalk. Get down on your knees, hold the ball with both hands. Start pounding. I'll bet the first time you pinch your finger you, stop. But I want you to do it 30 times in one minute.


Please video tape this. I'm waiting. Thx.

[anomiep]

96. That is not accurate

There was at least one abrasion on one of Trayvon's hands. This was noted by the both the Medical Examiner and the defense injury expert. I think they only mentioned one but I could be misremembering. Whether it is enough to consider it evidence of Trayvon assaulting Zimmerman is certainly something that is debatable - I think most people would expect more, and the defense asked their witness and his statement was you may have to make an incision to see damage due to the fact that he died - and since that wasn't done, he couldn't say.

But it's not accurate to claim that he had no cuts, scrapes or bruises, or that the coroner stated that was so. It just is not true.

The picture I saw of Trayvon - the flash washed out his clothes so much that I personally wouldn't state that their was or wasn't anything on or not on the knees of his pants. (the washing-out effect of the flash goes normal just below his knees). I don't know if you're talking about that picture - but it makes me very sad, and is not something I ever want to see again.

The DNA expert testified that there was at least one blood stain on Trayvon's shirt that was a sole source for Zimmerman's DNA.

I get it. A young man died. But facts are facts, not things we can just throw away because it's convenient. Don't take my word for it. Go grab the video of the testimony I referenced, and /check/.

[brush]

51. You didn't see the photo of the body on Gawker today, I guess

The body wasn't yet covered. Martin had on light-colored khakis. They were spotless, no grass stains, no tears from a tussle on the ground. Nothing. Google the photo if you want. Beware though, the photo is shocking to see.

The body is on its back, the eyes are open, the face is visible, as are the, like I mentioned above, the spotless pants. If you have the courage to google it, you'll see what zimmerman did.

It's clearly visible that Martin was just a slim youngster and not the threatening thug that he's been made out to be by many.

You're dead wrong about Martin having grass stains on his knees and hand injuries.

Stop lying and stop making excuses for that killer.

[brush]

76. You call those grass stains

from straddling someone and "raining down blows MMA style as zimmy claims?

I don't think so.

[brush]

83. If I was straddling a big body and punching and bashing and exerting all

kinds of energy in a struggle there would be big green stains on my knees not some slight discoloration.

Nice try though.

[chillfactor]

85. NOT GRASS STAINS! n/t

[chillfactor]

77. do you live in a nut-gun bubble?

no injuries to his hands.....no grass stains on the knees

are you always this dense or do you just come here to practice?

[RandiFan1290]

102. Welcome Back!

[billh58]

148. And another troll

bites the dust...

[Honeycombe8]

133. I'm afraid the evidence clinches it: GZ was beaten up to some extent; TM was not.

Unless you think GZ beat himself up, then TM did it.

[bushisanidiot]

136. Zero proof for that claim.

DNA evidence says trayvon never touched his killer

[Honeycombe8]

137. Huh? Are you living in a bubble? The prosecution CONCEDES GZ's injuries.

That is not being contested. Get it? There are photos of it. He had a busted nose & an injury on the back of his head. Apparently not serious injuries, but injuries nonetheless.

The only other person there was TM.

Unless you think GZ did it to himself, then TM did it.

(BTW...you must be smart enough to know that the absence of DNA does not disprove anything. It is only the presence of someone's DNA that proves something. It was drizzling, and the crime scene wasn't preserved or the hands bagged....it's been testified to that that could explain the lack of DNA. It was also testified that there is usually not DNA found under fingernails of a crime victim.)

This is all settled. I'm surprised at the posters who don't know the evidence in this case.

[bushisanidiot]

141. His injuries came from someone other than the murdered child

As the murdered child had no foreign DNA on his body.

Z could have had anyone hit him.

I wouldnt doubt if the cops did it since they let z go that very night and they left the murdered childs body in the morgue for three days.

[Honeycombe8]

142. There was a child there? I thought there was just the adult male and the teenager. nt

[bushisanidiot]

145. He had been 16 two weeks prior. Junior in high school

Z was college drop out and was fired from his bouncer job for being too violent. He lso was arrested for domestic violence which he blamed his girlfriend for.

He also was rejected by police academy.

He also took mma fight classes.

Z is a violent person who murdered a child who had. Been minding his own business and trying to get home.

[TNNurse]

19. He was a child. You are mistaken

George Zimmerman is not a child. He is an adult who committed a crime.

[Honeycombe8]

135. TM wasn't a child. He was old enough to get married & join the army. He was a late teen.

Young, yes. A kid, yes. But no child.

Yes, GZ is an adult. But he is also a son.

I think too much is made of being a "mother" in this and other trials.

[bushisanidiot]

138. He 16 2 weeks before he was stalked and murdered

His voice hadn't changed yet.
He only had peach fuzz facial hair.

He was also a junior in high school, on the honor roll, in ouruit of college scholarships, and not breaking any laws the night he was murdered.

[Honeycombe8]

140. There is no conviction of stalking and murdering in this case.

As for facial hair...are you serious? My boyfriend years ago never could go a beard or get hair on his chest. It wasn't in his genes. A lot of Af. American men don't have a lot of facial or body hair.

No need to exaggerate. He was a late teen. That's a fact. He was old enough to get married or join the army w/o his parents' approval. He was young enough to still be in high school.

But he was no "child," as people think of a child.

If you hear on tv that a "child" is lost or missing...you are NOT going to think that it's a private in the army, are you? Of course not. THAT is not a "child."

[bushisanidiot]

143. High school junior, on the honor roll

Zimmerman was grown man with a criminal record with a history of violence.
Z was taking mma classes. Would have been easy to get his mma friends to punch him a couple times.

Z's injury on top of his head was a mistake by whoever he asked to hit him.
Any injuries on his head should have been. To base of head only.

Again, no DNA evidence exists to support zs clim of a fight with the child.

[TNNurse]

147. He was not 18. He could not vote. He was a child.

NO matter what you say about getting married ( and where?) or anything else. By the way, everyone has had a mother. Having a mother does not set you apart as special. Some have had good mothers, some bad, some absent, some surrogate, but you do not get born without a "mother" involved in some way.

I have no idea why you think the word kid does not mean child.

[moonlady0623]

30. 7, 17, 27, 50

it's still a child of a mother and when that child is murdered, it's still exceptionally tragic.

[brush]

50. He was 16 years old and 21 days

an adolescent who was accosted by a grown man, a stupid grown man who made several bad judgments, but a grown man nonetheless.

Whether you want to call someone of that age a child or a teen, what's your point? If he's no longer a child do you mean it's open season on him by a gun toting wannabe whose judgement was horrendous?

Child of teen he was an adult, he was committing a crime, but he's dead.

Someone, zimmerman, should have to pay for putting the whole chain of events in motion.

[vaberella]

64. I think a mother would disagree with you on that.

My mum still says her children or child or calls us that And we''re in our 30s. Not to mention if..admitted to a hospital he would be seen by a paediatrician.

[murielm99]

65. A seventeen year old is not an adult.

I learned that adolescence does not end until age twenty-three. Someone may have an adult body at age seventeen, but not be fully developed cognitively until twenty-three. Some experts say adolescence extends to age twenty-five. Seventeen year olds do not have the fully developed brains that adults have. Trayvon was a kid.

[hfojvt]

74. he was about my size

and larger than some adult males. Larger than I was 6 years ago, before I gained some weight.

The point of using the word "child" seems to me to try to diminish that fact. To make it sound like he was puny, seven years old, or 11 years old, and thus not a threat to anybody. Just a mere child of 16. (I know he was 17, but I had to quote Dr. Hook)

[murielm99]

92. So now you are changing terms?

You are talking about size? That is how you define the difference between children or adolescents and adults? You contradict your entire argument by stating that he was "larger than some adult males." You are admitting that he was not an adult male.

[TorchTheWitch]

123. murdering a child isn't a "mistake"

And no decent mother would have more sympathy for a son that recklessly and with ill intent murdered a child than a child who was recklessly and with ill intent murdered.

No, that sword does not cut both ways. Every mother's nightmare is that her child will be murdered by some freak just because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Comparatively, very few mothers have sons that commit heinous crimes, and though they may want leniency for their son because they love them despite their faults they, too, also know when their son is deserving of punishment for a heinous crime.

To a mother their child is always their child. They never stop worrying about them just because they become adults with their own families and grow bald and get wrinkles. You better believe that any mother of a newly 17 year old considers them a child lacking the maturity and common sense of the average 28 year old adult. At that age they still need to be fed and housed and disciplined and taught how to go out into the world on their own yet are far too young and immature to fly the nest. In no way are they considered adults to any mother or to any parent for that matter. I've never been a parent in my life yet I do know that much.

Did your own parents consider you an adult with the same maturity and common sense of the average 28 year old when you were a mere 22 days past the age of 16? Of course not. Neither would any normal parent.

[Honeycombe8]

5. From what I've seen of the closing argument, it wasn't very good.

It was overdone...trying to be dramatic, went overboard and reached to some silly heights.

I didn't see all of it, though.

[Blackford]

15. That's a big stretch

It was a masterful closing argument.

Brilliant, in fact.

[chillfactor]

79. the prosecution's closing arguments...

were masterful..the defense over-dramatic

[gordianot]

6. In those 4 minutes George Zimmerman decided to kill the black kid. Premeditated?

How about Murder 1?

[Raven]

7. Shit! Good point! Defense might have suggested that

that 4 minutes gave Z the opportunity to cool off.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. The "Why didn't he get home in 4 minutes" argument is beyond appalling

As soon as somebody invokes it, I know exactly what to think of them. It's shameful.

[broiles]

11. Why didn't GZ not head back to his truck then

was he still looking for an address?

[TNNurse]

20. Why did he get out of his truck?

[hfojvt]

78. What is so shameful about it?

It's a somewhat clear indication that Trayvon did not run, did not even walk home. Instead, he stayed around to attack.

Do you just know what to think about people because you cannot answer that question?

But the whole point of this case on this site seems to be about hate. "I know exactly what to think of them." I know they are deserving of contempt.

[chillfactor]

81. there is NO CLEAR INDICATION

of who started the fight...and it was not 4 minutes it 2 minutes....as was clearly indicated in the prosecution's closing statements today.....

[brush]

112. "Instead, he stayed around to attack?"

I see you're buying that proven liar (in court, to a judge) zimmerman's story hook line and sinker.

Please read post number 111 in this thread. If you biases are not clouding your judgment, it may make you rethink your acceptance of a killing liar's version or what happened.

[anomiep]

10. I think if there's anything to be taken out of this

It's that people should probably tell their kids that if they're ever in a similar situation, to call the cops. Martin could have called the cops himself, and didn't (which does not at all indicate that he was in the wrong - but I've heard of self defense cases where the aggressors called the cops and the victim was treated as a perpetrator)

Although I think that might be problematic in areas where the police aren't exactly just, so there's that to consider too.

[Blackford]

14. Are you African American?

There is a different standard if you did not know.

African Americans are far more likely to suffer when calling police than when they do not, especially African American males.

[Honeycombe8]

25. Well, we've seen what happened when he didn't call the cops.

If he had called the cops, they probably would've called GZ, and that would've been the end of that. GZ would've been informed the guy is a young fella who is staying with his dad in the complex, and he's calling in to complain about being followed by YOU.

[yardwork]

26. I don't think so.

[Honeycombe8]

44. Of course. That's exactly what would've happened. The cops are on their way to look for TM...

then TM calls in to report he's being followed by some weirdo....ding ding ding. The cops would've cont'd on their way to BOTH TM and GZ, but would've called GZ en route & told him not to follow TM, that TM just called in for help because he's being followed by YOU, Mr. Zimmerman. Stand down. We're on the way to sort this out.

GZ would've stopped. TM would've cont'd on his way, having given his dad's address to the cops, so they can come talk to him about his complaint. GZ would've been informed that TM's dad lives there. End of story.

[madashelltoo]

53. Ding dong the wicked witch is dead.

When you look outside, is your world black and white or technicolor? Are there little people dressed colorfully with striped socks?

African Americans are not quick to call the police no matter where they live.

[Honeycombe8]

62. I know. It's a shame. TM would be alive if he had. I'm not quick to call the cops, either. nt

[madashelltoo]

63. You so missed my point.

You live in a make believe world, dear.

[brush]

54. Martin was 16 years old and 21 days,

not exactly someone who knew exactly what to do when being stalked by a stranger.

He was also on the phone and trying to get away.

Remember, this all happened quickly in under 5 minutes.

It's easy for us adults to say he should have called the police but I repeat, he was just 16 years old and 21 days.

[JDPriestly]

59. Trayvon Martin was a kid.

He probably did not want to call the police because he thought they might arrest him for being Black. Happens you know.

Florida is a Southern state. A black teenager's first thought upon being followed is probably not to call the police. Same for Hispanic kids in a lot of places. It's just common sense.

[chillfactor]

84. not very familar with the cops in the town are you?

Trayvon would have been their target not Zimmerman..the cops shot first..especially a Black kid...ask questions later

[anomiep]

28. Hence

the part of my comment about that being problematic in areas where the police aren't exactly just?

I don't know what it is like from that perspective in Sanford. I'm just saying, in general, if you can, do it. (His not calling the police doesn't mean anything one way or the other)

[anomiep]

38. and, now that I think of it

How the police are in Sanford may not even factor in to how Trayvon came to view the police (given that he lived somewhere else entirely normally)

So it was definitely not my intent to claim that everywhere and always, it would be a good idea. Just that if it is, it's not a bad think for a parent to get their kid to do in a like situation.

[RedCappedBandit]

23. Many people learn not to trust police. nt

[Lex]

24. . . . and for good reason. nt

[Honeycombe8]

27. And some people are taught that, I'm sure, because of others' experiences

from the past, which is not necessarily good advice. But TM probably didn't think this was a dangerous situation (the prosecutor portrayed him as frightened, but from what his gf said, he seemed angry...seems to me he didn't regard it as dangerous...just irritating). His youth may have prevented him from realizing the possibility of danger.

As a woman, though, I would've recognized immediately the dangerousness of being followed in the dark. Still, I don't know that I would've called police (wouldn't want to bother them & seem silly, if it turned out to be nothing)...IF I was close to home.

[yardwork]

32. What basis do you have for saying that Trayvon didn't think this was a dangerous situation?

That's pure speculation on your part, and it follows Zimmerman's script. Zimmerman has lied about everything involving the incident.

[Honeycombe8]

37. No. It's from the evidence I saw on tv. The testimony.

The gf was on the phone with him. And from GZ's testimony about their initial encounter. AND from the physical evidence of injuries.

I think that's a settled point. TM did approach GZ and ask him why he's following him (he first called GZ twice a racial epithet...out of GZ's hearing...this indicates anger or irritation). The gf testified to that. She could hear wind, like TM was walking, she heard the cracker & such comments from TM, and then she heard him say, "Why are you following me?" She said it sounded like he walked to the follower.

GZ's nose was busted to some degree, which jives with being punched in the nose, which is what he says TM did. (GZ's account of the initial confrontation jives with what TM's gf said.)

So no evidence I've seen or heard indicates fear on TM's part. Just anger and/or irritation. Same as GZ...anger & irritation at all the burglaries in the neighborhood.

Two alpha males who are going to lock horns. Instead of go on about their business. Not that either of them did anything illegal up to that confrontation.

[yardwork]

46. There's no evidence that Zimmerman's nose was broken. The photos show two little cuts on the tip.

In video of him at the police station later that night there is no sign of any injury to his face at all. The Medical Examiner testified that there was virtually no injury to his head. Definitely no broken nose.

There is no evidence that Trayvon Martin "locked horns" with Zimmerman. All this speculation just follows Zimmerman's script.

[Honeycombe8]

47. I didn't say it was broken. It was busted (up). The photos are in evidence. Nose swollen & bleeding.

You know...your standard busted nose from being punched in the nose.

None of what I listed is speculation. Those are recounts of evidence. (Note: the "locking horns" was a figure of speech. Neither of them really had horns that night.)

If you don't want to know the evidence, that's your business. But I would think if you believe in the legal system, you would want to be familiar with the evidence that the jury is going through. That is exactly what they are going to be reviewing.

There is no evidence that TM was afraid. At least I didn't see or read any. Do you know of any?

I do think it's settled that TM approached GZ and punched him. That's why the prosecutor is making a deal out of TM being "afraid" of GZ...because he is giving a reason for TM confronting GZ...he was afraid, the prosecutor said.

That's the evidence I saw/read. That's why I'm impressed that the jury asked for the list of trial exhibits. It may mean they are going to go through all the bits of evidence and deliberate carefully. There's a lot of evidence. Testimony, videos, taped statements, writings, objects.

Of course, juries can nullify....totally disregard all evidence and render a verdict they think is just, whether or not the evidence calls for it. It happens.

[brush]

57. It's not settled that Martin approached zimmerman

Everyone knows that zimmerman chase Martin, not the other way around. Zimmerman even says on the phone to the dispatcher that Martin is running.

Where are you getting "it's settled" crap?

[ReRe]

60. BTW, does anyone know who took those pictures of GZ with the bloodied swollen nose....

and the dried blood on the back of his head? I watched almost all of the trial live and never did hear who took them. Thanks.

[Honeycombe8]

61. I assumed the police, but I don't know. nt

[Adsos Letter]

69. I recall that the photo of the back/top of his head

was taken by Jonathan Manalo, the first witness to come out and speak with Zimmerman after Zimmerman shot Trayvon, and just before the first cop got there.

I think the bloody face shot was taken by the Sanford Police crime scene technician, Diana Smith. Could be wrong about that one.

[ReRe]

72. Thanks for the info.. ;-)

[Honeycombe8]

131. Oh, yeah. I remember the neighbor saying he took photos. nt

[brush]

111. Sounds like you're confusing evidence with testimony

Just because someone testified that something occured doesn't make it evidence.
zimmerman's camp is putting forward the assertion that Martin approached and struck zimmerman.

The actual evidence however, like zimmerman blood or dna on Martin's hands doesn't fit those assertions because there was no zimmy dna on Martin's hands.

How can you strike someone 35-40 times with your hands and allegedly draw blood from the nose and lip, all the while smothering said bloody nose and lip, while also slamming his nearly bald head (note: no hair to grip) against concrete, all with one's hands, and then not have any dna from that person on your hands? Impossible.

Testimony is not evidence. All that stuff you say is settled is a killer's and known liar's version of the story.

Now what is really settled is that zimmerman is a killer. There's no dispute about that.

[anomiep]

126. Testimony is evidence

Testimony is legally a form of evidence, and in fact the law for testimony/witnesses/etc in Florida is in Title VII, which is titled "Evidence".

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Index&Title_Request=VII#TitleVII

[notadmblnd]

130. I don't think it is settled. I don't even think that is what happened

but you can make it fit in your mind any way like.

You heard G story. and let's face it TM isn't alive to tell his. So you can believe the lies GZ told in regards to what happened, it doesn't make it true.

[Honeycombe8]

132. You can only believe otherwise if you disregard the evidence. I listed the evidence.

I don't THINK one thing or another. I wasn't there. I don't know firsthand what happened. I'm just going where the evidence leads.

Both the gf's testimony, the physical evidence of injuries, AND GZ's testimony all say the same thing: that TM approached GZ, there was a short confrontation, then TM punched GZ's nose.

We don't know all that GZ may have said to provoke that, whether GZ had his gun drawn, whether GZ was trying to run the other way....there is no evidence about that.

Just going where the evidence leads.

The only question is:

1. Is TM dead? yes
2. Did GZ kill him? yes
3. Was it justified? (as in self-defense)....this is what the jury has to decide, for manslaughter.

If it makes you feel better, I think it's hard to come up with justification for shooting him because of that confrontation. I'm not saying GZ is guilty or not guilty.

I just go where the evidence leads. The prosecutor all but conceded that TM approached GZ and hit him.

[notadmblnd]

144. I have to disregard the evidence as GZ provides it

and he has been caught in lies. The only other person that knows what actually occurred is dead. The police, the witnesses nor the prosecutor actually know how it really went down.

[brush]

56. Sounds like you're a zimmerman supporter

Consider this if you think Martin approached and struck zimmerman then straddled him and punched him 35-40 times, smothered his nose and mouth and bashed his head 20-30 times on concrete (all according to zimmerman:

Wouldn't a straddling Martin have blocked zimmy's arm from reaching for the gun under and behind his hip, because that's exactly where Martin's knee and thigh would be if he were the one doing the straddling. If what zimmerman alleges is true (not my belief), his arms may have been free to move in front of a straddler's thighs but that would be it.

He would have had to reach around and under Martin's knee and thigh and under his own hip to get to the gun tucked into the rear attached holster. That would not only take arms about a foot longer but arms of Herculean strength to lift up his big body, weighed down even more by Martin's) enough to get the gun out from under all that weight.

And wasn't wannabe boy also taking MMA classes 3 times a week for a year? Didn't he learn anything about leverage and how to use his weigh advantage instead of just allowing a teen boy who he outweighed by 40 lbs, and who he had superior adult male upper body strength over, to just pummel him like a helpless rag doll without offering any resistance?

And after all that alleged head bashing on concrete, he just needed a band-aid for treatment, no concussion, no skull fracture, no hemotoma, no blood on the sidewalk?

Sounds like he conked himself on the back of the head and nose with his own gun after he realized that he had fucked up big time by killing the kid instead of making the "heroic" citizen's arrest he had envisioned.

That would explain how it was his own blood on his own gun, not Martin's.

Sorry, but there are too many lies there on zimmy's part. He's nothing but a thug murderer who tried to make everyone else believe Martin was the thug. And it sounds like you're buying it.

[yardwork]

100. +1

[otohara]

31. Shoulda Coulda Blah, Blah, Blah

How would he have known this guy was a wanna-be-cop? Here's what AA kids should do...never leave their house because it might be legal to shoot them in the state of Florida if the jury acquits the neighborhood profiler -

[otohara]

17. Offensive Closing

Imagine if....imagine if....shoulda, coulda, woulda....if only.

[adieu]

18. The prosecutor should have

brought up the plight of Emmitt Till, who was killed for not much different reasons as Trayvon was killed for.

[byronius]

22. Emmet Till is incredibly relevant, jury aside. Exactly the same sociopathy writ large.

An entire swath of American culture sanctions the killing of a child by embracing a clearly false narrative that satisfies one of their deepest fantasies -- killing 'one of them' with the Precious, their only true friend, The Gun. In Emmet Till's case, it was purely about race, and the sexual imagery of black males ravishing white women, an act which the sanctioners are Obessed with. George Zimmerman is about race and The Gun, which they are Obsessed with.

[Honeycombe8]

33. If you think the case is valid, there is no need to try to exaggerate by calling TM a child.

Most people think of children as those below the age of puberty. He was old enough to join the army. It sounds over dramatic when someone tried to portray him as a Skittles-eating child. The Skittles were for his little brother, and he was old enough to join the army.

That does not mean GZ is not guilty.

As for race...I don't know if GZ is racist or not. But there's no evidence that he knew TM's race when he made the 911 call. He didn't mention race to 911 or the cops...until a later call, when a cop asked for a physical description & asked what race.

I think there's evidence GZ had a thing about guns. Obviously. Since he was toting one as a neighborhood watch guy. But that has nothing to do with the case.

[RedCappedBandit]

39. He sure looked like a child to me.

"Most people think of children as those below the age of puberty."

Apparently, plenty don't. Where did you get your statistics?

[Honeycombe8]

40. Look up the definition in the dictionary. Look up age to join the army. Age to get married.

Etc.

If you hear a report on tv that there's a missing child, you nor anyone else thinks it's a Private in the Army.

[RedCappedBandit]

41. I looked up the definition.

Doesn't jive with your conjecture regarding what most people think.

Look up the age to vote. Look up the age to drink.

Hell, look at the picture of Trayvon laying dead in the grass. Yep, looks like a kid to me.

FWIW, plenty of new recruits in the military DO look like children. It actually shocks me sometimes to see just how young some people in uniform look.

[quakerboy]

149. Dictionary

child
[chahyld] Show IPA
noun, plural chil·dren.
1.
a person between birth and full growth; a boy or girl: books for children.
2.
a son or daughter: All my children are married.
3.
a baby or infant.
4.
a human fetus.
5.
a childish person: He's such a child about money.

[Nevernose]

43. I'm a high school teacher

I work almost exclusively with children 16-19. Hundreds daily, contact with thousands, and decades of working with kids. Before I was a school teacher, I was a juvenile probation officer. I worked with kids Trayvon's age, kids who really were frightening, hundreds of them.

So believe me when I say that a 17 year old high school Junior is, indeed, a child. I will also say that going to the store to get his little brother some skittles makes it sadder.

I would suggest that if 17 is old enough to join the army (it's not, although you can sign the nonbinding paperwork), then the problem is on the Army's end, not the dictionary's or the law's end.

I suspect, but have no actual proof of any sort, that Zimmerman is like many racists and doesn't even know that he's racist. I know that former coworkers allege that he made violent, racist threats against him, and that one branch of his family swears that George's branch is very racist.

For fun, you should read Sanford's log of previous 311/911 calls Zimmerman made. The guy, at best, was a total weirdo.

[Starry Messenger]

71. +1

[JDPriestly]

45. But, I think that a 17-year-old has to have parental consent.

http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/join-the-military-basic-eligibility.html

So, a 17-year-old can join the army, but cannot make that decision by himself.

[Adsos Letter]

70. Correct.

I joined the Army 3 months after my seventeenth birthday, but I had to badger my parents into signing for me in order to do it.

[JDPriestly]

89. My husband signed up at 17, and that was long ago.

[Adsos Letter]

90. Me too, over 40 years ago.

A whole lifetime ago, it seems.

[anomiep]

93. I signed my delayed enlistment

when I was 17. I ended up not going into basic until I was 18 (AF, not army)

My mother had to sign the paperwork with me.

[gollygee]

105. No. Most people consider underage teenagers to be children.

If you think Zimmerman's case is valid, you don't have to pretend Trayvon Martin was an adult for it to be valid.

[byronius]

150. What an obtuse point. n/t

[yardwork]

29. Zimmerman and his supporters are defending their right to kill any black male.

That's why Zimmerman's defense has such resonance to a certain portion of the population. They are the people who believe that Zimmerman had a right to kill a black male just because they felt "frightened" of him. And they believe that any white person has the right to feel "frightened" of a black male just because.

The rest of us find this horrifying, and that is one of the divides in this country. You are absolutely right to reference lynchings, because that is what this is all about, simple as that.

[Honeycombe8]

34. I haven't read that. There's a group of GZ supporters defending rt to kill black males? Link?

I missed that. (altho nothing would surprise me these days)

[brush]

58. By your posts

and your accepting of the zimmerman camps version of things, many would put you in that group.

Don't know exactly how anyone with common sense can get past all the proven lies coming from zimmerman and just accept what he says as fact.

[HiPointDem]

36. +1

[anomiep]

95. I don't know

This has the mark of blanket assignment of a particular attitude to a very large group of people.

I've been accused of being a 'zimmerman supporter'

I don't know what happened - I just don't like seeing things that are factually incorrect argued as fact, and sometimes I get a little zealous about it.

I don't think that anyone has the right to kill a black male just because they feel frightened of him, and I don't fear black people just because they are black - there have to be circumstances to justify a fear, and 'black' or 'white' is not sufficient. I've felt fear of both blacks and whites under certain circumstances - but it wasn't because of their skin color.

The reality is that there's only one living person who knows what actually happened in the portions of the timeline that there isn't any evidence for. There's another thread somewhere where someone notes that the only people who really have a call on this right now are the jury - they're going to see way more evidence than anyone else.

Right now I just hope that whatever they come back with, whatever decision they make, is in line with what actually happened - whether that's 'not guilty' or 'guilty'.

I think part of that divide you're talking about is caused by a willingness to apply blanket statements to people in the first place - and it's not something that either side of the divide is entirely innocent of. In fact, that tendency is actively used by both political parties to get people to support them. Not because the argument is true, or because the labeling is true, but because people have enough of a tendency towards that kind of argumentation - the demonizing of the 'other side' - that it *works*.

I say that as someone who gets accused of being a 'libtard' on conservative sites and a 'wing nut' on liberal sites. I figure that means I'm the middle that everyone wants to convince.

[yardwork]

98. People who insist that "both sides are equally at fault" are a big part of the problem.

This country is now being ruled by people on the far, extreme right and people on the pretty-far-to-the-right. If you claim your privilege to stay in the middle then you are firmly established well over to the right.

And my "blanket statement" about people who are defending Zimmerman stands. If you are defending the judicial process, that is one thing. If you are defending Zimmerman to the point of trying to explain away his dizzying number of conflicting statements and flat-out obvious lies, then my comment applies to you.

[anomiep]

121. Please show me where I claimed that

I didn't say both sides are equally at fault.

I said both political parties are not innocent of using the tactic of exploiting people's tendency to believe demonization of the people supporting the other side. If the objection is that there's a divide, that divide does not get smaller by intentional failure to look at people as people.

And again, I am not defending Zimmerman. When, however, I see people claim things like 'No DNA was found on Martin' when the DNA expert testified that Martin's shirt had Zimmerman's blood on it, I'm going to say something about it.

And if you're insisting that I'm claiming 'both sides are equally at fault' ... I'm going to say something about it.

[snappyturtle]

35. OMG! I'm with you Raven...I hope the mothers can apply justice. nt

[JDPriestly]

42. Under the defense theory, if Zimmerman had been killed, Trayvon Martin would have been acting

in self-defense.

I wonder what the outcome would have been had Trayvon Martin really reached for Zimmerman's gun and shot Zimmerman. Would self-defense apply?

[flvegan]

66. Are you hoping that these mothers on the jury are prejudiced based

on the opinion you drew, hoping they did the same?

This is a jury with a life in balance. We should leave predetermined opinion out of it. Just sayin'.

[chillfactor]

87. there was a life in the balance...Trayvon's..

but he is DEAD and cannot tell his story or defend himself......

Zimmerman told lie after lie...5 different versions of what happened that night...

sorry but Zimmerman's life certainly not a concern to me.....he KILLED a young kid...Trayvon's life and death are a concern

[flvegan]

91. So you were there?

So quick to pass judgment on another's life. You must be absolutely certain.

Wow.

[ReRe]

67. If he gets the maximum (Murder II)...

... I think the defense team should be reprimanded too, not to mention that police department. The Police Dept handled everything wrongly, re GZ immediately after it happened. I remember seeing a frontal view of GZ's bloodied face, and he had a BLUE shirt on underneath the red jacket. Yet when he came into the station, he had a light colored t-shirt on, with no blood anywhere. That was evidence that had been washed away. What did they do, let him go home and shower before they brought him in? He lived right around the corner, after all. The whole thing was a total injustice. The jury now is the only hope for any justice at all.

[hfojvt]

82. that he hung around so long

indicates that he wasn't going home. Indicates that he stayed around to confront, and beat Zimmerman.

How else did Zimmerman catch him 200 yards from his car after a four minute "chase"?

[uponit7771]

94. You're fuckin kidding me right?! He hung around because it was HIS FUCKIN NEIGHBORHOOD!!

Just because the guy was black doesn't mean he didn't belong where the fuck he wanted to be in his own damn neighborhood

[Travis_0004]

103. He has a right to be in his neighboorhood, but if trayvon was scared, why would he stick around?

That is what Omara is trying to say.

[all american girl]

108. Because he thought he lost Zimmerman.

I just don't understand why this is hard to figure out. Anyone with a teen ager, or knows a teen ager, realizes that they dilly dally around. I remember my mom getting mad at my brother, and the was 30 years ago. I have a 19 and 14 year old...I always have to tell the to focus. Trayvon was talking in the phone, thinking he lost Zimmerman, why do you think he would run home? He just went back to doing what he was doing before the " creepy ass cracka" made him nervous.

[yardwork]

99. It doesn't indicate that to me at all. All kinds of other explanations are more likely.

First, I think it is ludicrous to suggest that a seventeen year old kid who was alone and unarmed would "hang around...to confront, and beat Zimmerman." There is nothing to suggest that Martin was likely to do this or did this. Nothing except Zimmerman's side of the story, and he's a proven liar.

It's far more likely that Martin was trying to get home and got turned around in the dark. Somebody posted a map of the condo complex here and showed how Martin wouldn't have been able to see the numbers on the units from the path where Zimmerman first chased him. Martin would have had to backtrack to get around to the front of the buildings to find his father's girlfriend's unit.

I got lost in an apartment complex once while I was visiting friends. It was scary. Every building looked the same. My son got turned around in my apartment complex a few weeks ago and actually walked up to the wrong door. Now add to that having a creepy guy following you, probably with a drawn gun in his hand, and I can see absolute terror taking over in Martin's mind.

[yardwork]

114. Easily. There are no lights along that path between the units.

Even though it was only 7 pm, it was dark (February) and rainy that evening. No lights on the path that runs between the backs of the buildings. Trayvon could easily have gotten confused about which unit he needed to find, and doubled back the way he came to go around the front.

[all american girl]

110. He told his friend that he lost Zimmerman, he just went to doing what he was before

Chatting on the phone with Rachel. He probably didn't get far down the walking path, but I don't think he was waiting to jump Zimmerman...he was still on the phone...using that common sense, again.

[yardwork]

119. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being out for a walk at 7 pm on a Sunday evening.

Trayvon Martin had as much right to be in that neighborhood as Zimmerman. I know that this is hard for some people to accept, ever since the Supreme Court made "sundown towns" illegal. It's a tough break for racists that black people are allowed to walk around their own homes as if they owned the places.

[yardwork]

124. What absolute drivel.

You're just repeating Zimmerman lies. Martin was not in "somebody's yard." That is a lie.

[Nevernose]

125. Zimmerman wasn't on his phone at that point

He'd hung up on the dispatcher so he could find Trayvon. Trayvon was the one on the phone, plus it was dark, plus it was raining.

The defense "four minutes of silence" is further bullshit because we know exactly what happened during the first two and a half or three of those minutes, because Zimmerman was on the phone, narrating for the police dispatcher how he was following a boy home, and that boy was also on the phone, narrating how some creepy ass cracker was following him.

And how is it the teenage boy's fault a nosy, creepy older man was following? How does that become Trayvon's fault for not running away fast enough?

We know less about what happened afterwards. We know that neighbors and people n the phone heard an argument and saw an altercation. We know that there's a recording of a boys voice screaming for help. We know that George Zimmerman shot a teenager through the heart, and then lied about some of the significant details.

[polly7]

134. Zimmerman had to hang up at that point,

he needed both hands, one for the gun ... one for the flashlight.

[gollygee]

106. To me, it indicates he was hiding

If I were being followed, I'd probably hide and hope they went away.

[In_The_Wind]

97. That so totally sucks!

[Little Star]

109. Yes. And like Trayvon should have just led a creepy person back to..

where he was alone watching over a younger child.

[yardwork]

115. Somehow the racists have to find a way to make this all Trayvon's fault.

It can't possibly be Zimmerman's fault.

[Little Star]

117. Makes this lily white woman ashamed. ugh!

[yardwork]

118. Me too.

[Rstrstx]

128. Oh they were real

You're kidding right? Granny told me about them when she used to drive through Alabama way back when

[BainsBane]

139. disgusting victim blaming

[billh58]

146. The Gungeoneers

are out in force today, defending their hero Zimmerman: Zimmerman = victim, and Trayvon = sinister looking aggressor, who deserved to be shot. But what else would we expect from that NRA-parroting, right-wing swamp of gun worshipers?