Why is woo sold as "mainstream?"

[Archae]

I returned home from a trip to a Walgreen's drugstore, while there I noticed literally dozens of "homeopathic" remedies on sale there.

Latest one near the pharmacy counter was a homeopath "treatment" for "skin tags."

Remember that headache "remedy" with the "Apply directly to the forehead" repeated over and over?
That was homeopathy.

And homeopathy is quackery.

[JaneyVee]

1. Not all homeopathy is quackery, but the homeopathy market does let in some quackery as well.

[Dash87]

4. All true homeopathy is quackery. It's heavily diluted water that supposedly has a "memory."

However, some things are labeled as being "homeopathic" when in reality they're just home-remedies. True homeopathy is a pseudoscience.

[JaneyVee]

15. Good point. I was lumping things like acupuncture and massage into homeopathy.

But if you're speaking of the literal sense of homeopathy than I agree. I know many people for whom acupuncture and massage therapy worked wonders.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

29. It's easy to confuse the term *holistic* medicine (which is often legit, or at least arguably so)

with homeopathy, which isn't. I think a lot of people (including me, until I learned what homeopathy really is) lump a lot of nontraditional medicine together, and include homeopathy in that category. But it's pure quackery.

[JaneyVee]

31. Yeah, I'm actually so used to seeing signs here in NY stating:

"Acupuncture, holistic & homeopathy treatments". Yes, I agree that homeopathy is quackery. Also it preys on our over priced health care system which makes people want to find inexpensive quick fix it cure all's.

[eShirl]

111. As a former massage therapist, I don't know which I resented more:

my profession being lumped in with homeopathy, or with prostitution.
Now, decades later, I'd have to say homeopathy is worse.

[HERVEPA]

5. All homeopathy is quackery.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Homeopathy IS quackery.

It involves repeatedly diluting a solution to the point where there is no way there could be any actual molecules of the "active" ingredient left in it. In other words, it's water. Total woo.

[zappaman]

20. Excuse me!

That water has memory!

[longship]

25. Homeopathy's claims and its premises have all been falsified by 19th and 20th century science.

There is not even a hope for homeopathy to be effective and every single argument to the contrary ignores the mountain of science against it.

Homeopathy is abject quackery. Nothing more; nothing less.

[opiate69]

44. ...

[dionysus]

63. homeopathy is woo, you might be confusing it with holistic...

[think]

2. $$$$$

[hobbit709]

3. Exactly!

[bobduca]

79. this!

[Javaman]

145. But more so...

it thrives on the desperation of a population who knows that medical bills can bankrupt a person.

people desperate to feel better will always try the cheap option first.

Snake oil salesmen and their product always thrive during a weak economy.

[NRaleighLiberal]

7. If people buy it, they are happy to sell it.

[longship]

36. May as well use a hammer, than that stuff.

At least then one would observe an actual effect. On the other hand, it won't do the headache any fucking good. But neither would the Head-On. At least you probably already have a hammer around the house someplace. The treatment is effectively free of charge.

Better yet. Take some shavings off the hammer head, and dilute them 100 to one by weight in vodka (or water, if you prefer). Then take a milliliter (ml) of that result and mix it with 99 ml of vodka again. Repeat this a total of 30 times. Make sure you shake the mixture against a leather bound Bible each time ten times in each of the three Cartesian axis.

Then, take one ml of the resultant hammer-on-the-head homeopathic headache remedy.

When you are finished, drink another bottle of vodka. If your headache doesn't go away, consult your naturapathic (so-called) doctor who may recommend other quack cures to try out. Some favor coffee enemas to rid you of all the toxins that your body has accumulated. (Avoid the Grande Latte's, though.) Some find acupuncture to be particularly effective in extracting of finances while simultaneously providing a very effective biological transmission vector for a variety of infections. YMMV.

[NRaleighLiberal]

45. I see problems with both ends of this - being a pharmaceutical chemist for many years....

You start out to idealistic - then realize how many new medicines are copy cat drugs. then you learn about how statisticians can make any new medicine's trials look good (even though it may be no more than a micro-improvement).

So...you get snake oil on one hand (infomercials!)....big pharma ripping wallets on the other end.

I am so glad to have retired from it - and find that eating healthy, getting exercize - and doing things you love with those you love - best medicine of all!

[zappaman]

47. I'll take heirloom tomatoes over pharmaceuticals any day!

[NRaleighLiberal]

49. hey - you been in my kitchen?

the harvest is just about to begin - 200 plants, all different (it is a race with disease, though...so warm and wet)

[zappaman]

53. No, but loving my farmers markets

Between heirlooms and amazing cherries full of flavor, this is my favorite time of year!

[eridani]

105. O/T The ones in your sig file are just gorgeous!

That's one thing humidity is good for. Really good tomatoes are hard to grow in the Pcific NW, what with night temps below 60 and comparatively low humidity.

[longship]

59. Agreed, but homeopathy is still quackery.

Eating well means eating in moderation and with a diverse diet, as we have evolved to do. Exercise. If you drink, do so in moderation. Don't smoke.

There is no secret formula to good health beyond this. I suspect that anybody saying otherwise is selling you something and will try to convince you that the simple formula is wrong and that they have the secret ingredient for long, healthy life.

And when one gets sick, I will take science-based medicine every day. Homeopaths are selling malaria cures, for Christ sakes. The poor people who travel to malaria zones believing it. With some malaria you're dead in a couple of weeks. Get vaccinated you'll likely survive.

Quackery has a real body count.

[NRaleighLiberal]

60. couldn't agree more. n/t

[RiffRandell]

99. Me too.

I had a former neighbor that was big into homeopathic remedies. She had strep throat and finally went to the doctor for antibiotics after 3 weeks of suffering.

My husband is a cancer survivor and I am thankful for the chemo and radiation he suffered through because it saved his life.

[marions ghost]

8. Homeopathy is not woo

--it is remedies derived from plants and natural materials. And a lot of it is very effective and has scientific testing behind it. You can call it quackery if you like. But know that a lot of people disagree.

[cthulu2016]

10. You are mistaken as to what homeopathy means

[zappaman]

16. Many people make that mistake. n/t

[marions ghost]

27. This is my perspective:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-malerba/homeopathic-arnica_b_1081164.html

Clearing Up Some Misconceptions:

A bit of an odd situation has arisen because although homeopathic medicines are FDA approved and regulated, they have not been widely embraced by mainstream medicine and, as a result, there is a lack of information and many misconceptions regarding the nature and use of homeopathic products. With recent media attention (1) (2) focused on the use of Arnica for healing injuries, it is important to clarify those misconceptions and set the record straight as to how it can be properly used to maximize its benefits. In addition, there has always been a good bit of confusion in the media about herbal and homeopathic preparations in general -- and this identity problem applies to Arnica as well as many other homeopathic products.

Most of the general public is pretty well acquainted with herbal products. Also called botanicals or phytomedicines, herbal medicines are prepared from plant materials and administered in their natural form for a wide variety of ailments. Arnica has been historically used as an herbal preparation, however, the most common over-the-counter and only FDA approved and regulated form available is homeopathic Arnica montana. Sold in most natural food stores, it is important to understand that homeopathic Arnica is not an herbal product nor is it a nutritional supplement.

Homeopathic medicines are made from plant, mineral and animal substances, but it is the manner in which they are prepared that makes them unique. Homeopathic medicines are diluted to such a degree that skeptics claim the small doses are merely placebos. They argue that, in theory, it is impossible for them to have any therapeutic effect because it cannot be explained how they work. Experienced homeopathic practitioners and patients make the counter-claim that they actually work in practice. While the controversy rages on, the popularity of homeopathic medicine continues to grow.

[NRaleighLiberal]

52. Placebo effects are powerful and not at all understood.

It becomes really evident when looking at testing of new pharmaceuticals - many just on the sugar pills do very well - one of those things scientists struggle to explain!

[marions ghost]

61. Am familiar with the placebo effect

and how scientists think about it. But I don't think it's the only factor in the cases I am thinking of. Plenty of room for debate on this topic. Meanwhile, I'll keep using the ones I like, along with other herbal remedies, and I hope that people who scoff will not succeed in making them unavailable. I realize it's a hot button issue. Re the confusion between homeopathic and herbal, there is a lot of crossover. That point is perfectly valid.

There is so much to be indignant about. It always amazes me that people are so worked up about this. People won't buy or use what they don't find works (at least they won't buy it more than once). Cosmetic sellers make claims, vitamin makers make claims, diet foods make claims, sellers of snake oil of all kinds make claims. This is one of the least dangerous and more benign substances you can buy over the counter. Don't like, don't buy. (My comments here are general, not directed at anybody in particular. Not trying to persuade).

[longship]

71. No placebo cured an infection, or cancer, etc.

Placebos do okay for things like pain, or non-specific symptoms. That's why drug trials are double blinded and have a placebo arm. Neither the physicians nor the patients know whether they are getting the real drug or the placebo.

If the real drug does no better than the placebo it is a negative result. that means the drug is no good for that treatment and it does not get to market.

Claiming placebo effects for so-called alternative medicines is equivalent to admitting that they do nothing, which is precisely what many of them do. Sadly, some do something, but due to lack of regulation, harm can be done. So called supplements are just unregulated, dirty drugs. Mostly snake oil.

And Big Pharma? Who do you think sells them? Why go through drug trials when you can sell Chinese St. John's Wort with no regulation?

Well, as to that. St. John's Wort may suppress anti-HIV drugs. Not good when HIV treatment has made such great strides.
Here: http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb-interaction/possible-interactions-with-st-johns-wort

[Recursion]

76. I know a researcher who is trying to get the terminology changed to "placebo response"

Which I think might be a better way of looking at it.

[NRaleighLiberal]

77. indeed.

[longship]

55. Avogadro's number!

It's something every educated person should have learned in high school chemistry. I am sorry if people didn't pay attention; that's not my fault.

6.023 x 10^23 is the number of atoms (or molecules) in an atomic weight (in grams) of a substance.

When you dilute a solution using successive dilutions as is the way with homeopathy, there comes a point where there are no more molecules of the active ingredient left. It's a simple numbers game which anybody ought to be able to calculate.

Once one goes beyond the dilution limit, it's irrelevant how many more times you perform the successive steps. There is no more active ingredient remaining.

This is chemistry 101. But if people didn't pay attention in high school, I can see how they might think that homeopathy might work. Sadly for them, but gladly for the companies marketing that quackery.

Homeopathy (wiki)

Homeopathy and Plausibility (Science-Based Medicine Blog) much more at this site.

[marions ghost]

62. I understand chemistry 101

but thanks anyway...

That wiki entry on Homeopathy --skewed more than most.

[longship]

68. Apparently you don't if you think homeopathy is anything but utter quackery.

There is no way homeopathy works.

But go ahead and waste your money. I just hope you don't try to heal a serious illness with that stuff.

Sorry for being impolite. But the science is firmly against your position, and has been since the 19th century, only a few decades after Samuel Hahnemann invented it. At the time, before the germ theory of disease became known, doing nothing was better than visiting a physician. Homeopathy seemed to work because doing nothing was better than fucking bleeding people, or surgery where the instruments weren't even cleaned between procedures.

But medicine has advanced tremendously since then. The germ theory of disease and sterile surgical procedures changed within Hahnemann's own century (which bridged the turn of the 19th century) and made all his practices not only obsolete, but utterly falsified.

Science moves on. Homeopathic medicine is stuck back in the time of physicians balancing humors and bleedings. Well, physicians no longer do those things because today's medicine is based on science.

Sadly, homeopathy is not. The best thing one can say about homeopathy is:

For eighteenth century medicine, it may not do any good, but at least it isn't still bleeding people.

The harm is when people think they are getting healing when they really need it. Sadly, those people may pay with their lives for that error in judgement.

That's why defending homeopathy is nearly without conscience.

[marions ghost]

72. Whatever...

I don't defend it. I merely state that I have found some of it useful. And the objections to it seem silly, since we're only talking about basic home remedies, not treatment for life-threatening illness. I'm aware that people also think as you do, but that's fine. I feel no need to prove anything. You do your thing, I do mine. I also go in for acupuncture and Chinese medicine--I only use what works.

There is so much else to get all twisted up about.

[longship]

73. None of what you cite works.

And there is ample evidence to demonstrate that fact. Yes, you are free to ignore it. But when you get really sick, I hope you find a good MD and leave the home remedies at home. Also, do not forget to tell the MD of any home remedies you might be taking. Drugs have interactions. That's why self medicating isn't a very smart thing to do.

I wish you the best and hope you the best of health.


Does your acupuncturist use sterile procedure? Gloves? Does he/she reuse needles? A Swiss acupuncturist recently was hauled into court for spreading HIV via his procedures.

Be safe, my friend.

[marions ghost]

80. My acupuncturist

has proved herself countless times over to me and to others I know or am related to. (She is qualified to treat patients in a major hospital). I'm sure there are bad acupuncturists, just like the many bad MD's I have encountered, one which almost killed me with a near fatal misdiagnosis. I'm sure we could trade stories all day long. Since I'm highly drug sensitive (several near misses in the hospital to prove it), am even allergic to drug additives--acupuncture and more natural things work much better for me. I have an enlightened MD who is completely supportive. I take no drugs whatsoever and am in good health. (Of course I would use antibiotics or life-saving drugs if there were no other alternative. I'm not a scientologist).

Thanks for your best wishes. Same to you. Keep an open mind.

[longship]

95. Acupuncture is an invasive procedure.

Your skin is your outer defense to disease. If your acupuncturist does not use gloves, or does not sterilize needles or use new sterile needles, she may be putting your welfare in danger for something which has been demonstrated to be no better than placebo.

Well, at least acupuncture is doing something, unlike homeopathy. But no invasive procedure is without risk.

It would be appropriate to inquire about whether her procedures are sterile. If she does not use sterile gloves, run away.

Stay safe, my friend.

[marions ghost]

97. Gloves and clean needles are standard procedure of course

she shows you the packages and tears them open on the spot--like I said she has privileges in a major hospital.

I can tell you've never had acupuncture. If you had, you would have no fear. Of course you must find someone with a good reputation. Just like any other doctor.

[longship]

102. I don't use invasive procedures with zero benefit beyond placebo.

So, no. I have never had acupuncture, nor would I as long as the science says what it does.

1. It doesn't matter where you put the needles. (Oopsie! So much for meridians and Xi, the basis for acupuncture.)

2. It doesn't even matter if you put needles in. (Placebo acupuncture.)

The effects are the same.

The acupuncture literature is a bit of a mess because one is actually doing something, sticking fucking needles into your flesh. But when evaluating it, as with all science, one must take the literature as a whole. The best designed studies, with the best blinding, will be the most accurate. Large studies are better than small ones.

When one evaluates it as a whole one sees that acupuncture is an invasive procedure not without risks, that has no medical benefit beyond placebo. That alone condemns it.

For Christ sakes, if you are going to practice placebo medicine, stick with homeopathy. At least that doesn't stick needles into your flesh. You're only drinking water, or a bit of potable alcohol, neither of which will do you harm.

No invasive medical procedure is without risk. Any MD would be honest with you about that -- that's the standard of care. Ask your acupuncturist about the risks. If she says none, she's either ignorant or outright lying.

I appreciate your respectful responses.

Best regards.

[marions ghost]

116. What IS your problem?

Sorry, the horse has left the barn re. acupuncture.

Unlike prescribing one-size-fits-all drugs, acupuncture takes some real skill, so it does matter who does it, like with surgeons and other medical people trained to administer other kinds of needles, tubes, shunts, catheters, drains, and things that stick inside. I said I agree with that.

And of course any invasive procedure, and non invasive procedure has risk. That's the risk you take if you want to get better when going to ANY doctor, isn't it?

These scare tactics and vitriol about acupuncture is really old, warmed over & not substantiated. You're much more likely to have issues with tattoos. And look how many people go in for those.

End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. Blither on, but I'm no longer likely to manage respectful responses to your foaming outrage on this topic. I don't care that much. Best regards.

[longship]

120. My problem is with made up stuff which has no benefit.

And people being taken by scams like are ripe in so-called alternative medicine.

There is no alternative medicine. There is just medicine, which is a science based discipline, not made up stuff which has no basis in theory or fact.

These unconventional modalities do harm when people use them for health problems which may be life threatening. That they cannot and do not work never seems to seep into their minds. Critical thinking is sadly missing, I am afraid.

Sorry if I have upset you. Thank you for your responses.

[HardTimes99]

132. Just out of curiosity, what's your position on Asian medicine in general? Those

cultures and their practices have been around a hell of a lot longer than ours or even Western Europe's and I know Asian medicine relies on a very different mindset from Western medicine and consequently different diagnoses and treatments. (I'm a total layperson, so I can't give you any specifics.)

I'm a firm believer in the scientific method. That said, I'm not sure Asian medicine conforms to western modalities of thought about the body and biology. So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.

Edited for grammar and clarity of thought.

[longship]

140. That it doesn't conform to science is the problem.

Medicine is a science. When you throw out the science part to promote Asian (for example) modalities you have no basis other than anecdotal evidence which is subject to all sorts of cognitive biases.

People think these modalities work because they have positive results for their various complaints. But when they are studied using blinded, placebo controlled studies, the effects are inevitably non-existent.

Another effect of the research is that the larger and better controlled studies are all negative.

Proponents like to cite individual studies, but these are usually the early studies with no blinding and no controls which basically makes them useless. That's why one must look at the whole research body not individual research. When one sees the effects disappear as controls and blinding are tightened, you're done. One can say that the modality is ineffective.

Thanks for the response.

[HardTimes99]

143. I don't want to hijack Archae's thread but was hoping someone with expertise

in Asian medicine would seize the reins and run with them.

I guess what I was trying to get at is that the Scientific Method, i.e., observation, hypothesis, experiment, conclusion, revised hypothesis, produces one type of knowledge. But the epistemological premises underlying Asian medicine (with its proclivity for 'holistic' approaches, for example) may not lend themselves to proofs of the type provided by the Scientific Method.

Again, I feel cursed by my layperson's status and will gladly abandon this sub-thread if only some philosopher of science or expert in Asian philosophy\medicine will take over. Hell, I'll abandon it anyway but I really appreciate your ideas and insights!

[longship]

144. No problem. Good luck. nt

[EOTE]

146. Acupuncture is NOT homeopathy.

Homeopathy is, without a doubt, a pseudoscience of the worst kind. It has been utterly disproven countless times. There is much to suggest that acupuncture is effective. There is ZERO to suggest that homeopathy is effective. It's quackery pure and simple.

[Revanchist]

83. Wong

There are people out there touting homeopathy as a cure for HIV! http://kill-hiv.com/tratamenthomeopat.html Don't tell me that it's harmless. Chinese herbal remedies might be effective, in fact, the NIH has been investigating many different types of alternative remedies and have done research showing that yes some indeed do work, but the majority of those are herbal http://nccam.nih.gov/health/atoz.htm .

[marions ghost]

90. OK fine

I presume those people have tried other treatments for HIV, or do it simultaneously. No harm in that.

Why do you get the idea that I'm talking about using alternative treatments without considering or using mainstream treatments as well? I've never said that.

All I'm saying is some of this stuff has worked for me. I can't say if it would work for anyone else. I'm getting an awful lot of flak in this, for no good reason. Who cares what I do?--I'm not advocating anything. People can make up their own minds.

All I'm saying is there MAY be another side to this. Keep an open mind. That is all. Not making any ridiculous claims.

[Revanchist]

94. Maybe in the developed countries

But there are (or were, not sure if they still exist) programs that were shipping homeopathic HIV/AIDS treatments to parts of Africa, where there is limited drug access to begin with. In my opinion, I believe that the money to do this would be better spent on proven and reliable drugs for these diseases. If you want to believe that homeopathy works, I won't try to change your mind, but I think efforts like this are misguided and dangerous.

[marions ghost]

123. I don't know about any such misguided applications

of these remedies--I only know what works for me. I don't advocate use of alternative remedies alone in the case of life-threatening diseases at any time, but apparently this is a real misconception with some people. They can't seem to understand that it can be used as an ADJUNCT to traditional medicine, like in Europe and fortunately by some doctors here. This is NOT an either/or thing and the docs in some of the best medical centers in the country are not nearly as conflicted about it as the posters in this thread.

The reactions about this seem like some kind of knee-jerk fear response, based on urban legend. And zero personal experience. But that's OK. It's interesting.

[jberryhill]

67. The NSA has been monitoring Avogadro's number...

...they think he might be a mole.

[longship]

69. Undoubtedly a Sicilian Mafia plot!!

I knew there was something foreign about that name.

[SwissTony]

126. You're a bad person.

Go to your room.

[PasadenaTrudy]

129. Sheesh

Like every single person takes Chem in high school. I didn't, and I'm a college grad.

[eridani]

106. Do you mean to say that they've given up on that horseshit about 10K dilutions in water?

And are now just advocating the use of herbs? I use them myself. I once got rid of a Plantar's ward with dandelion juice, and am having some luck with turmeric and ginger to reduce arthritis inflammation. But I'll be fucked if I'll ever consider diluting these preps thousands of times with water hoping that the water will "remember" the herbs.

[marions ghost]

124. I can't answer your question

--see my post 66 below. There is an overlap with homeopathic and herbal remedies which is confusing. I can't sort it out for you. I use homeopathic arnica and a couple of other things--works well for me but maybe not for other people. I am only a user, not a practitioner and I don't have a lot of answers. Seems like there's a lot of interest in this topic. I'll remember to stay out of any such debate in future. Not something I feel the need to argue about.

[eridani]

159. Not understanding the confusion. Either you use the herb as is, or you

--dilute it thousands of times in water. Which is it?

[BuddhaGirl]

12. +1

To each his own. Seems like flamebait to me.

[marions ghost]

28. It flares up now and then...

I agree with the poster here who says you can put up the same argument about vitamins and cosmetics and body products, and they are sold everywhere. Some work as described, some definitely do nothing.

I used a homeopathic remedy on a bad scar and even the doc calls the result miraculous. Whatever works, y'know.

[Egalitarian Thug]

117. +1

There's this small group here that does this every other month or so.

[NoOneMan]

18. All water would cure everything

Since all water contains the mass dillution of every natural plant and material the earth has ever seen. Pond-water is a cure-all

[Posteritatis]

38. Or kill us all because botulism exists. (nt)

[EvolveOrConvolve]

22. There's a difference between herbalism and homeopathy

While a lot of herbalism is also quackery, it at least has the possibility of doing something. Homeopathy, on the other hand, is just water.

[kestrel91316]

34. Please provide links to published (peer reviewed lit) reports of controlled studies

of homeopathic remedies showing they are effective.

I'll be waiting........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

[marions ghost]

43. See my post 27

--that is my perspective --and I really don't feel the need to prove anything.

[postulater]

155. Well, here's one. Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled.

Effectiveness and safety of a homeopathic drug combination in the treatment of chronic low back pain. A double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial.
Article in German
Beer AM, Fey S, Zimmer M, Teske W, Schremmer D, Wiebelitz KR.
Source
Klinik Blankenstein, Hattingen. [email protected]
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
The homeopathic drug combination Lymphdiaral Basistropfen is established in the treatment of edema and swellings. This is the first time the effectiveness and safety was investigated in the treatment of chronic low back pain.
METHODS:
The study is a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. From December 2003 to May 2007 248 patients aged 18 to 75 years were screened, 228 were randomized, 221 started therapy, in 192 the progress was measured (103 verum vs. 89 placebo), 137 completed the study (72 verum vs. 65 placebo). They received 10 drops of verum or placebo solution three times daily for 105 days additionally to an inpatient complex naturopathic treatment.
RESULTS:
The hannover functional ability questionnaire score (primary outcome measure) tends to increase in the intention-to-treat-analysis (verum: 6.6 vs. placebo: 3.4; p = 0.11) and increases significantly in the per-protocol-analysis (verum: 9.4 vs. placebo: 4.1; p = 0.029). The treatment was well tolerated (92.9% vs. 95.4%). The incidence of adverse reactions and serious adverse reactions was similar in both treatment groups.
CONCLUSIONS:
This first randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial shows, that the homeopathic drug combination can improve the treatment of chronic low back pain.
PMID: 23424755 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[NRaleighLiberal]

46. using herbs/natural medicines is a good thing - but the dilutions/techniques

of homeopathy are simply impossible - true homeopathy, if effective, is placebo effect - which I guess means it is fine...problem is it is often at a great cost. So, yes, apples and oranges, natural materials and true homeopathy.

[dionysus]

64. you're confusing homeopathy with holistic, i think.

[marions ghost]

66. I know the difference

--there's a lot of overlap. Holistic medicine practitioners will use homeopathic remedies at times.

http://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-well-being/stories/whats-the-difference-between-holistic-and-homeopathic-medicine

This webpage explains the connection as I understand it. I'm not a practitioner or expert in it, just a user. And I'm not pushing it--just saying I have found it useful FWIW.

---------------

"A holistic medical doctor combines modern, Western scientific treatment with alternative medicine or complementary treatments, such as chiropractic, acupuncture or massage. Both a homeopathic physician and a holistic medical doctor will look at the whole picture. How they differ is that the homeopathic doctor would prepare a remedy in liquid or tablet form, while the holistic doctor would provide a patient with the option of a pharmaceutical drug in addition to alternative treatments, which could include a homeopathic remedy.

Homeopathic treatment — often bashed by modern scientific institutions and doctors — in general falls under the holistic umbrella. Homeopathic medicine examines the whole person. It integrates a person’s constitution, diet, emotional and mental state and stressors, among other factors — hence the term holistic."

[Archae]

82. Useful? No. Horseshit? Yes.

Homeopathy is outdated quackery.

Period.

[marions ghost]

84. Not to a lot of people

But think what you like. I would never have any argument good enough for you.

[Archae]

92. "A lot of people" believe all gays are going to hell.

A lot of people believe flying saucers came from Venus. (Adamski followers)

A lot of people believe prayer ALONE cures disease. Or prayer along with water from Lourdes.

A lot of people believe vitamins cure AIDS.

The key word in all this?

"Evidence."

Testimonials are not evidence.

Science is.

And science has this nasty habit of proving testimonials to be worthless.

[marions ghost]

93. Of course testimonials are not evidence

that's why I keep pointing out that I am ONLY giving my own testimonial and speak for nobody else, nor do I advocate anything or argue points. I give you my story and you trash me, and I expect nothing else.

I come from a family of scientists (and doctors). I know all about your line of thought. Fortunately the scientists I know have open minds. They're objective thinkers but they know that all science is not the gospel truth, or the whole story.

[Cha]

107. Ha! We agree on that. I was looking to see if anyone

had a different opinion on homeopathy and here you are.

I've used it on and off for years. And, I wouldn't be going back if it didn't work. The "Upset Stomach" one works especially well for me, everytime. If I have one(and, it doesn't happen very often) I take 3 of those and it's gone in 10 minutes.

[marions ghost]

121. And that's my point too

--that people don't stick with things that don't work.

So if homeopathy and herbal remedies (& acupuncture) are growing in popularity, they must have some effect, at least on some people, beyond placebo. I'm certainly willing to believe they don't work as effectively on some as others. And I realize that testimonials aren't scientific (duh) but like you, I am willing to stick my neck out and say that some of it works well enough for me to continue and I am glad for having an alternative as an adjunct to western medicine (it's not either/or, as some like to portray it).

There seems to be a large contingent of objectors who want to make this a faith-based issue, science vs religion. But I consider myself fairly practical and not inclined to believe in anything very easily. My experience is the proof for me.

thanks for weighing in--I was getting tired of being piled on

[Berlum]

150. Experience

is

[LeftishBrit]

160. I think you're thinking of herbal medicine. That is not homeopathy.

Herbal medicines, like other medicines, contain active substances. Homeopathic medicines are basically distilled water.

[marions ghost]

161. There is an overlap

I use a cream that is 10% active ingredient yet is called homeopathic. It obviously has ingredients that have color and smell. So this is unclear--could just be deliberate inaccuracy in labeling. I know what you're talking about (re. historical homeopathy) but can't really address the manufacturing issues--I just know what works for me.

As I repeatedly said, this is only my testimonial --and you better believe I will not pipe up in future, since I see there are so many people that want to make this some kind of burning issue. I've never seen this amount of rabid foaming at the mouth over nothing. We buy stuff all the time that makes claims that are not always borne out--as someone said here, take a look at pricey cosmetics and body products sold for women that are really nothing in a jar--only a name and an empty promise to stop skin from aging. A million other examples come to mind.

Something else is going on here--frustration and urge to lash out--some sort of displacement activity. Reflects the powder keg of these times of stress and turmoil IMO.

Thank you for being polite and neutral in this discussion. I won't reply to anything that isn't.
Not gonna be a target for excess frustration.

[Apophis]

9. It's all about the Benjamins.

[zappaman]

11. I thought this homeopathy was treatment for "skin tags"?

[laundry_queen]

13. Another woo thread.

yay.

[B2G]

24. Lol. can we ban that word now? nt

[laundry_queen]

40. I hope so. nt

[ElboRuum]

54. Well, if we ban that word...

...we won't be able to make choo-choo threads.

Woooooooo woooooooo!

[phleshdef]

136. Please. "Woo" sounds more stupid than what its describing.

I'm all about rejecting bullshit, but can we call it something that doesn't make the person saying it sound like a jackass?

[Cleita]

14. Because some people believe in it and there's a demand for it.

I find a lot of vitamin therapy to be quackery too. Many vitamins just get pissed out of your system because your body has enough already. Yet, some people want vitamins so they are available. Unless it's poisonous, let people have what they want. A lot of what is sold in cosmetic counters is pure quackery but women will spend the money for them regardless and would get upset if they aren't available.

[marions ghost]

17. Good points

cosmetics are really a racket--the prices for some little jar or bottle are outrageous. And the claims are fictional. I am thinking of a certain line that I know you are thinking of too.

[taught_me_patience]

19. If you could sell a tiny ass bottle of water for $5, wouldn't you? n/t

[NoOneMan]

21. Only if I could label is as Mermaid Tears

[KittyWampus]

23. if it was packaged nicely, I might buy a bottle of Mermaid Tears> BTW, OPI has a nail polish

Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 07:46 PM - Edit history (2)

named "Mermaid Tears"

[Politicub]

70. One of the funniest subject lines evah!

[snooper2]

125. Mermaid Tears are useless

Now if you want some good stuff, get a bottle of Orphan Tears!

[KittyWampus]

137. LOL! It's all in the packaging (which includes the adverts).

[Scurrilous]

30. The Catholic Church has been doing it for years.

Holy water from Lourdes (I actually received some as a gift).

Price: $16.00

[HardTimes99]

138. Ouch! Careful now, or you'll restart the 30 Years War! Oh, wait a

second. Yup, the Peace of Westphalia went out the window when Morales' plane was denied flyover rights. You're good to go!

[Posteritatis]

42. Personally, I was raised to consider lying and fraud to be bad things. (nt)

[Cleita]

58. Yes, many of us were, yet there seems to be a long held opinion that those things don't

apply to business. In business, anything goes to get ahead and make a profit, providing you don't get caught skirting around regulations or cheating on your taxes. Getting caught is the bad thing, not doing the bad thing. Worked with so many businessmen, who were good community, family, churchgoing, charity giving people in their private lives, but left it at the elevator door when the workday started.

[HardTimes99]

139. This really deserves to be its own OP, imho. You've captured the

essence of the professional office-man\bureaucrat\professional in a few short sentences.

[KittyWampus]

26. You seem to post extremely often on the subject of "woo". Regarding homeopathy>

it's possibly worthwhile as the power of suggestion/placebo.

By the way, is giving women pregnant mares' urine thus giving them breast cancer also considered woo?

What about giving thalidomide to pregnant women?

[kestrel91316]

32. Homeopathy is indeed quackery of the highest order.

I am watching Ancient Aliens (the tv series) this week and my guess is that the same sort of people believe in both.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

33. As a veterinarian, what do you think of Rescue Remedy?

It's said to be homeopathic, but I don't know if it really is, or if it works at all (though there are a lot of claims that it does). I doubt the placebo effect works on cats; they're too smart and skeptical for that.

[kestrel91316]

35. It is harmless so long as it does not cause owners to delay legitimate medical care.

Rescue Remedy is a Bach flower remedy and all of those are indeed homeopathic ie water.

The placebo effect can work on owners, IMHO, which might just be a terrible disservice to the pet.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

41. Thanks, that's pretty much what I suspected.

You give the stuff to the cat; the cat is still having hissy fits but *you* think the cat is feeling better because you believe the stuff is working even if it isn't. Placebo by proxy, kind of. I see it in pet shops all the time, never tried it.

[Liberal Veteran]

39. Agreed. I think some of the problem is that it is marketed as "natural".

And it gets lumped in with the alternative medicine.

There are natural medicines that work pretty well (marijuana, willowbark, opium), but stuff like homeopathy and healing crystals are lumped into the same umbrella and as a result, some folks just don't take the time to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[SidDithers]

37. Shit and sugar...

Sid

[NRaleighLiberal]

48. .

[zappaman]

50. Aye yi yi

[Revanchist]

87. Only if you vibrate your toilet at the right frequency while flushing

nt

[ElboRuum]

51. What the hell is a "skin tag"?

No, seriously. What is this?

[zappaman]

56. It's like a mole but just excess skin.

Last year, I dropped 20 lbs and got one under my arm.
Just excess skin that they snip right off!

[Butterbean]

57. Well, I used homeopathic teething tablets and colic tablets

with both of my kids, and they honest to God helped. *shrug* When you have a colicky infant, you'll pretty much sacrifice a goat butt naked in the middle of the mall during holiday shopping season if it will make your kid stop screaming 24/7.

Homeopathy and baby wearing and a smattering of other "granola" type parenting things interwoven into my routine helped a lot. I still took them both to the doc for their regular check ups and stuff, but added in a mixture of other things too, kwim?

A potpourri of parenting tricks, one could call it.

[Orrex]

85. For the record, the goat thing DOESN'T work

Learn from my error, new parents.

Learn.

[Butterbean]

114. LOL! n/t

[Luminous Animal]

88. The only "homeopathic" remedy that I ever relied on was the chamomile pills...

Chamomile has calming properties and it did work. When my daughter was old enough to drink the tea, we switched to that.

"When you have a colicky infant, you'll pretty much sacrifice a goat butt naked in the middle of the mall during holiday shopping season if it will make your kid stop screaming 24/7"

Hahahaha!!! So damn true!

[Revanchist]

96. That would be herbal or hollistic, not homeopathic

There is nothing wrong with that. The only problems I have with herbal remedies is when people start taking them without first consulting with their physician to make sure that there won't be any interactions with any prescriptions that they are already taking. People neglect to have that conversation and don't normally list them on the medical history forms. It can be dangerous if, for example, they are already taking medication for high blood pressure or a heart conditon and start taking hawthorn which also lowers blood pressure http://nccam.nih.gov/health/hawthorn Interactions like this can cause dangerously low blood pressure that could result in falling/loss of conscious.

[Luminous Animal]

98. They were sold as "homeopathic" and that is why I put the word into quotes.

Perhaps I should have expanded on my reason for doing so but you explained it so nicely now I don't have to! FYI, our pediatrician was 100% on board with chamomile.

[Revanchist]

100. I see

With something like that, I would check the list of ingredients to see how much chamomile was in it. If it was actually homeopathic with a crazy dilution amount, you would be better off using chamomile tea or trying finding another brand.

[Luminous Animal]

103. We did. My husband used to manage a health food store and refused to carry

anything that was woo homeopathic but did due diligent research on every product that was labeled homeopathic but was, in actuality, an herbal remedy. There were quite a few herbal products that slapped on the "homeopathic" label to take advantage of a craze that had (has) no standards. He, and many other health food activists, spent a fair amount of time lobbying the traditional herbal remedy provendors to resist embarrassing their brand by jumping on a marketing fad.

[Butterbean]

115. Yeah, I understand that (I'm a nurse), and we consulted with our pediatrician

about the little remedies. We used Hyland's tablets, which are pretty ubiquitous and about as "mainstream" as you can get when it comes to over the counter homeopathy. I don't know if those are technically herbal or what, but whatever they were, they helped. Colic sucks. Teething plus colic sucks more.

[Coyotl]

65. Why is it that what sells is mainstreamed, woo or no?

[sagat]

74. Because people are stupid.

[Recursion]

75. Been to Europe lately? The Apothekes are about 80% homeopathic

[bobduca]

78. $$$$$$$$$$$

[Honeycombe8]

81. Where do you think modern medicines come from, Archae? You think they

just thought that up and mixed up chemicals in a lab, without any research into prior medicines through the ages?

Drinking herbal teas - some modern medicines are derived from those herbs.

Some "homeopathy" is just common sense and do indeed work.

Some methods don't work. You know...just like chemical pills. Some work for some, not for others.

The milder treatment should always be tried first, IMO, moving to the hard stuff if the milder treatment didn't work. Note: milder, organic treatments don't work quickly like injecting chemicals into your body. But then, you don't suffer as many harmful side effects, either.

You choose your poison.

My opinion: The more you stay away from doctors and hospitals, the healthier you will be. Eat vegetables, exercise daily, keep your weight close to normal, laugh a lot, have some friends and pets, be optimistic, take a multivitamin and fish oil and basic things like that, stay away from medicines of all sorts unless absolutely necessary (incl. pain relievers), don't eat too much sugar, don't eat fast food, limit processed foods. and go to the doctors only for annual checkups and tests. Do NOT go to the dr every year for that sinus trouble you get every year....you know what it is. You get it every year, for gosh sakes. Put pure water up your nose every day, and quit going to the dr for it.

You will live a long, healthy life, probably. Unless you get cancer, which is beyond our control, for the most part.

[Archae]

86. Eat healthy. exercize...

Die anyway.

[Orrex]

89. You are conflating homeopathy and a number of unrelated practices

Incidentally, you should abandon the term "chemical pills" as a pejorative, because it's as meaningless a term as "organic" when applied to grocery purchase. I'm willing to bet that everything you've eaten or imbibed in the past few decades has been made of chemicals, but I doubt that you refer to the "chemical food" that you had for dinner.



You seem not to know what homeopathy actually means. You are also giving medical advice of dubious value.

[sagat]

108. "The more you stay away from doctors and hospitals, the healthier you will be."

Yeah, people were much healthier and lived longer before modern medicine.

[Revanchist]

91. Ahhh homeopathy,

I only business where you can make $20 million a year from one duck

http://skepcindy.livejournal.com/6546.html

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/970217/archive_006221.htm

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/blahg/2011/01/oscillococcinum-the-canonical-quack-remedy/

[BlueJazz]

101. Damn...I just now got used to homosexuals...Now I got some OTHER homo-thingy to try ...

..to understand?

(Actually, my neighbor sells that stuff. She get's the "Flower Essence" (oh brother)...mixes it with 3 gallons of tap water...then uses an eye dropper to add that to a 12 oz bottle.)

$12.95 please

[eShirl]

110. Is she in denial about running a scam?

Or does she think she's "helping" the people who are forking over their money for her water?

[BlueJazz]

113. She thinks she's helping the people (from what she says). I suspect otherwise but try to be fair...

....in my evaluation. I, of course, don't buy any of it...the idea or the water.

[reusrename]

109. It's nowhere near as reliable as pyramid power.

But the big drawback there is that you only buy it once.

[Skittles]

112. what is the deal with this word "WOO"?

did we need another word for bullshit?

[Puzzledtraveller]

118. It's like nails on a chalk board

I get annoyed just seeing it on the forums.

[Archae]

148. As long as there IS woo, I'm going to call it woo.

[Skittles]

153. that does NOT answer my question

[Archae]

156. "Woo" and "Bullshit" have differences.

Bullshit is the specialty of religion and politicians.

Woo is the specialty of quacks.
Quackery, fake medicine, whatever you want to call it.

[Skittles]

157. so I Googled

"........But mostly the term is used for its emotive content and is an emotive synonym for such terms as nonsense, irrational, nutter, nut, or crazy."

Sounds like the word (I use that word VERY loosely) "WOO" is quackary itself

[Skittles]

152. I think it is surpassing "PROLLY" for me on the irritation factor

W.T.F.

[StrayKat]

119. I think it has less to do with stupidity, and more to do with the failures of conventional medicine.

If conventional medicine were able to cure what ails us, and with out exorbitant expense, and without side effect, and without drastic procedures, etc., there wouldn't be a hole left for homeopathy and its like. From what I've read, most people don't start with homeopathy. They try conventional methods or other holistic methods and when they don't work, they move on to homeopathy out of desperation.

Plus, placebos are not the least effective of treatments available.

[Freddie Stubbs]

122. Probably for the same reason that some pharmacies sell cigarettes

[CanSocDem]

127. And that reason would be....

...what??? That one man's poison, is another man's medicine...!?! That it doesn't really matter???

.

[Freddie Stubbs]

151. $$$

[PasadenaTrudy]

134. Back in the 70s

when my dad was a pharmacist, he smoked at worked and sold them! Scary. Sadly, he died of lung cancer in 1987

[get the red out]

128. Depends on one's definition of mainstream

If there is a market for something it will usually be sold. I don't think there is a way to control the definition of mainstream, or dictate who sets that definition in a supposedly free society.

[Quantess]

131. Birch bark extract used to treat headaches? Wooo

otherwise known as aspirin.

[SidDithers]

142. Homeopathic birch bark extract doesn't have any birch bark in it...

woo yes indeed.

Sid

[eShirl]

149. And has what to do with homeopathy? (A: nothing.)

[PasadenaTrudy]

133. I still wonder

about the effects of Botox and all these other fillers people are having injected. How can this be good?

[Puzzledtraveller]

135. For the longest time I thought we were talking about a member of DU

I wondered, what do all these posts have to do with Woo Me With Science?

[HardTimes99]

141. DUZY for sure! (Maybe a Meta-DUZY?) - nt

[Skittles]

158. this particular member seems to be obsessed with "Woo"

I don't mean WOO ME

[Marrah_G]

147. Are you talking about tag away?

[SidDithers]

154. No Homeopathy thread is complete without Mitchell and Webb...

Sid