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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTrayvon Martin was shot at 7:16 in the evening
It wasn't like the kid was creeping around at one in the morning.
It was dinnertime.
It was a perfectly reasonable hour for a law-abiding citizen to be walking around, but Zimmerman saw Trayvon and thought "Kid's a burglar."
That's racism right there.
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Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)I've thought all along it was much later at night.
Dinnertime!
That's not good for Zimmerman.
dothemath
(345 posts)Sun set at 6:27 pm, it was dark at 7:16 pm.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)citizens are supposed to have the RIGHT to wander around, kinda.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,088 posts)7:16 pm is before most kids bed time. It's early for God's sake!!! Are we meant to be afraid of the dark now too? 
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)he deserved it 
Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)repercussions? Door is that way. ---------------->
demwing
(16,916 posts)what's your point? Is there a sundown curfew for black teenagers? What exactly are you trying to say?
spanone
(135,795 posts)
Politicub
(12,165 posts)
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Like MANY MILLIONS of AMERICANS who leave work and commute and take the bus or train and are walking home
not to mention 24 hours a day.
Zimmerman shot a man in Sanford, just to watch him die, and Zimmy lied and Trayvon died.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)I'm not a lawyer, and Florida obviously has some laws that seem goofy even TO lawyers, but isn't it a fact that, in order to convict on a 2nd degree murder charge you have to prove an original intent to kill?
If the jury acquits him of 2nd degree murder, can they still convict him on first degree manslaughter?
I'm just wondering if the Florida DA deliberately set the bar too high, in the hopes of losing this case.
I can't believe that a moronic wanna-be cop can drive around at DINNER TIME, chase down and harass a kid who he THINKS looks suspicious, confront him with a gun in civilian clothes, shoot him dead, and then be found innocent by reason of 'self defense.' Even WITH stupid 'stand your ground' laws. The only way that could possibly happen is if a jerk-off District Attorney deliberately sets the bar for conviction so high as to guarantee an acquittal.
MH1
(17,573 posts)It sounds like there are a couple hoops for the prosecution to jump through in that case, but it also sound like they're pretty easy hoops.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)in their case dismissal arguments yesterday. Seems the DA is ready for just such a possibility.
Zimmerman and/or his wife are almost certainly going to do jail time anyway, for conspiring to lie and lying under oath to the judge about their financial resources and George's possession of a second passport...the valid one that they did not surrender to the court as a condition of bail. So at least some justice for his slew of lies will almost certainly be forthcoming.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I don't know why, but the original charge didn't meet the standard of evidence. So she walked. They didn't reduce it to Manslaughter or anything else. Free and clear.
So, I'm worried. I think Florida is fucked up, personally.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)was that the State could not prove when or how the child died. That is boatloads of reasonable doubt no matter where you are. Since the State was caught withholding exculpatory evidence, any conviction would have been vacated. Given that we are talking about Angela Corey, and the fact that one of her team members is in a world of shit for destroying evidence, I fear that could happen if Zimmerman is convicted.
What the DA did was try it in the media. One thing I learned about trial by media is that the chances of it being wrong is quite strong.
While the jury can find for manslaughter, however the State still must prove BARD that it wasn't self defense.
I'm not an apologist for anyone, simply pointing out the reality of the situation.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)In particular, second degree murder lacks the premeditation often required for the prosecution of a first degree murder.
To prove second degree murder, a prosecutor must show that the defendant acted according to a "depraved mind" without regard for human life. Florida state laws permit the prosecution of second degree murder when the killing lacked premeditation or planning, but the defendant acted with enmity toward the victim or the two had an ongoing interaction or relationship. Unlike first degree murder, second degree murder does not necessarily require proof of the defendant's intent to kill.
- See more at: http://statelaws.findlaw.com/florida-law/florida-second-degree-murder-laws.html#sthash.MnNofiSs.dpuf
brush
(53,743 posts)I think I read that somewhere, that there are four options for the jury:
2nd degree murder
voluntary manslaughter
the other one, which I guess would be involuntary manslaughter
and acquittal.
I really can't see a jury going pass the first three, since there was a killing, to acquit zimmerman.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)But I believe it would be considered aggravated
manslaughter of a child, using a gun, which would
be a big jail sentence.
It's hard to imagine they would find it as "involuntary"
manslaughter, as Zimmerman has expressed no regret
at all.
He could probably have pled involuntary manslaughter
if he hadn't started lying immediately.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)Wondering whether the jury can still convict on a lesser charge. Or whether the DA charged him with murder in the hopes that he'd plead guilty to manslaughter instead, and then had their bluff called on the grounds that a Florida jury would probably acquit.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)Listening to the prosecutor's argument convinced
me they do have a case for second degree and it is
quite strong.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)put together a point by point summary of why you are now convinced.
I would be interested in your opinion.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)(This may be wordier than you requested..)
(edited ----> to correct the name: I've been posting
that it was John Guy but it was Richard Mantei, asst da.
John Guy did the opening statement for the
prosecution. Both VERY good.)
.............
The ADA Richard Mantei, in appealing to the
judge not to dismiss the case, made such a
powerful presentation of the facts, and the
circumstantial evidence, and the innumerable
blatant inconsistencies in Z's stories.
He cited precedents for 2nd degree murder convictions,
in one case where the simple act of pointing a
gun and shooting someone was considered evidence
of a depraved state of mind. I felt he made the
case simply and precisely, and blew all
the defense bullshit out the window.
Originally I thought this was involuntary
manslaughter, ie that there had not been
any original sinister intent. I was skeptical that
he profiled because Trayvon was black.
As I learned more it seemed less involuntary
and more sinister, and I believed he could be
found guilty of aggravated manslaughter
(in this case specifically, murder of a child,
using a gun -- for which sentencing in FL is
nearly the same as for 2nd degree.)
But I didn't see how they could prove his
ill will, or depraved mind -- until I listened to
Richard Mantei's presentation on Friday. It was a
thing of beauty. He laid it all out, piece by
piece. There was nothing new -- it was how well
he presented the case. The case is already
proved, my opinion. He just needs to repeat
himself in his closing statement. The defense
has nothing.
If you're not watching the trial you're maybe
not aware that the defense is really horrible to
watch and listen to. I can't imagine the jury feels
much differently.
They are whiny, hostile, disrespectful, boring,
and they waste a HUGE amount of the judge and
jury's time with unproductive nitpicking. The judge
REALLY doesn't like wasting the jury's time, she
seems quite protective of them.
She doesn't seem to like the defense lawyers very
much, but I don't think it's political or pre-trial bias
as some are claiming.
It's just that they just act like assholes and are
frequently annoying and argumentative with her.
The clincher for me, like I said, was Richard Mantei's
presentation. It gave me great confidence in the
prosecution's competence.
My opinion now is that they have a very strong case,
pretty well backed up by forensics or lack thereof.
........
http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/07/06/will-the-defendant-testify-or-not-testify/
Someone on DU just posted that this blog is excellent,
and I agree so I'll refer you. They are liveblogging
the trial but also providing daily summary and
analysis.
He's also got some good info about what
"reasonable doubt" means.
The critical question, however, is whether the 6 women, 5 of whom are mothers, believe what the defendant told others. They are not required to believe anything he said. I doubt they will believe him, given his many contradictory statements, implausible claims, and the forensic evidence, particularly the DNA evidence, which proves that Trayvon Martin did not hit him 20-30 times in the face, grab his head and repeatedly slam it into a concrete sidewalk, or attempt to smother him by placing his hands over the defendant’s nose and mouth.
I believe the prosecution has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant provoked the encounter with Trayvon Martin by following him in a vehicle and then on foot after Trayvon attempted to elude him. He hunted him down and attempted to restrain him contrary to a request by the police dispatcher not to follow him and he never identified himself or explained why he was restraining him. Under these circumstances, Trayvon Martin was entitled to use reasonable force to defend himself, escalating to deadly force when the defendant pulled out his gun. Therefore, Trayvon Martin used lawful force to defend himself and the defendant’s use of force was unlawful.
If he were my client, I would tell him that this is my assessment.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Guy is the one who sounds like a young Kevin Costner.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)because I thought he was the same person who
did the opening statement.
But now I'm even more confident in the prosecution.
They've got at least two who can make an outstanding
closing statement.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Be interesting to see which one gives the final statement.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)You should make an OP out of it.
Thanks
WinstonSmith4740
(3,055 posts)I was afraid the prosecution wouldn't be able to meet the criteria of 2nd degree murder, and this bastard would walk. Good to know that he's likely to do some serious jail time. Even a Florida jury should be able to see this as AT LEAST voluntary manslaughter.
Thanks for the legal education, DUer's!
Deep13
(39,154 posts)The jury may presume intent to kill by the use of a firearm.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Angela Corey, the State's Attorney, almost always over charges hoping to get good plea deal. It works for her most of the time. This time, not so much.
Florida's definition of second degree murder
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html
I'm not a lawyer either, but I know enough not to take anything I read in blogs or see on cable at face value and prefer to do my own fact checking. Just because I share the same political philosophy with someone doesn't mean they know what they are talking about on a specific subject.
Too many blogs etc. don't have fact checkers or actual journalists on the ground. Instead they have lazy wannabes sitting in a cubicle assuming stuff. (I swear to god, one more "sleepy southern town" reference about metro Orlando I am going to fucking puke.) IOW, I'm not a big fan of "new media". There are a few good blogs that are done by people who know what they are talking about, don't get me wrong, but I still do my own fact checking. It's an INTP thing, that's how I roll.
Like I told AC, the jury will be instructed that they can convict on the lesser charge. Or at least, that was the case on every Florida jury I was on. Thing is, the State still has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense. A couple of their own witnesses made the chances of that pretty slim. Like it or not, that is simply the reality. FWIW, SYG has nothing to do with this case since there was no immunity hearing.
I have have been live streaming the trial in my office. Any opinion I have is based only on that. FOIW, there is a you tube channel "thecount" has a complete archive of it so far.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)I think they can, and I think it's apparent he had ill intent just going by his call to the dispatcher. He didn't see Martin as just a normal kid walking in the drizzling rain going somewhere, he saw him as a criminal simply because he was young, male, black and wore average youth attire. Had he been wearing a preppy sweater, loafers and carrying an umbrella he would have thought nothing of him. Because Martin in the most basic ways fit the description of the person that was caught doing robberies (young, black, male and wearing normal youth attire) Zimmerman decided he had to be a criminal. It had nothing to do with what Martin was doing or how he was acting, yet he tries to make it seem that he's doing something unusual by walking home in drizzling rain from the store.
The defense has been trying to make it appear that walking in drizzling rain is somehow a bizarre thing to do. It isn't. That's what raincoats, jackets with hoods and umbrellas are for. People don't hole themselves up in their homes just because it's drizzling outside, and neither did Zimmerman. Zimmerman himself found nothing strange about his getting out of his car and chasing after a kid in drizzling rain.
Zimmerman went out of his way to try to make it appear that Martin was acting suspiciously: walking in drizzling rain with a hooded sweatshirt protecting his head, looking around as if people stare at their feet when they're walking (seems to me that kids are taught to be aware of their surroundings when out alone in the dark), looking like he's on drugs (whatever that's supposed to mean), and he first finds him suspicious because he's NOT running and then finds him suspicious because he DOES run. Then this is a guy whole thinks it's necessary to call the cops because he thinks kids playing outside or someone's garage door is open during the day is somehow suspicious. Zimmerman liked playing neighborhood cop. If he drove around searching for something legitimate to call the cops about and couldn't find anything then by golly he'd find ANYTHING to believe was suspicious so he could play neighborhood cop.
Neighborhood Watch is nothing more than being alert and willing to call the police when you notice something legitimately suspicious, getting to know your neighbors and watching out for them. That's how communities used to be anyway when I was a kid - everyone knew everyone else and kept an eye on what was going on in their community and being watchful and concerned about their neighbors. Neighborhood Watch as an organization came about because neighborhoods stopped being close knit communities of people that knew and looked out for each other. It's nothing more than being alert while you go about your daily life, getting to know your neighbors and looking out for them as neighborhood communities used to be. It DOESN'T mean cruising around LOOKING for something to report as if you're a neighborhood cop. But that's exactly how Zimmerman took it to mean despite training.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)great post, thank you
politicaljunkie41910
(3,335 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 9, 2013, 05:47 PM - Edit history (1)
And Zimmerman has never said what he was doing in that short time when he observed him that was "suspicious" and "appeared to be on drugs". I hope that he is convicted on the 2nd Degree Murder charge. As a mother of 2 sons and a husband who are black, this is our worst nightmare come true. The possibility that some idiot would stalk him and hunt him down for no good reason, shoot him and then claim self defense after having initiated the chase down is UNBELIEVABLE.
Also, in their brief encounter, when Martin asked him why he was following him, Zimmerman never identified himself as the neighborhood watch captain. During the police interview with the investigator and the female police captain, she asked him point blank why he didn't just say that he was with the neighborhood watch captain. Zimmerman said that he was afraid to say that. If he is that much of a punk that he's too "afraid" to identify himself as the neighborhood watch captain, he is too much of scaredy punk to ever be a police officer.
My only consolation with an acquittal is that he and his lying wife will face charges for lying to the courts about the money raised on the internet, and that they will eventually be bankrupt by the entire process. It will hopefully make the next wannabee cop think twice before he hunts down someone's child and kills them for no good reason. He should have took his behind on to Target like he was supposed to.
Funny how Zimmerman, the liar who was enrolled in MMA classes for 18 months leading up to the shooting, would accuse Martin of using MMA tactics on him. His lawyer wants us to believe that Zimmerman was only in MMA classes to lose weight. No, the scary cat was in MMA to hopefully develop some fighting skills so he could transform himself truly into a bad ass, from the scary cat he was, but failed miserably.
niyad
(113,082 posts)NOT go armed.
Notafraidtoo
(402 posts)Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)n
HipChick
(25,485 posts)I don't see how folks on DU can continue to excuse him
Warpy
(111,172 posts)Gunloons want to know they can shoot anybody they don't like.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)liberal suburbonites who know this is a horrible precedent to set, but are willing to let injustice be done because deep down inside they suffer from the same fear and xenophobia as the blustering gun nuts. They'd rather let an innocent kid be murdered, than put the fear of prosecution into whatever neighborhood watch types, and police that may be 'protecting' THEIR peaceful little suburb.
It's very sad and disappointing, but it's a fact.
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)Rachel Jeantel said that Trayvon was asking her about the All Star's game, and she couldn't tell him anything because she didn't care about it.
I wonder if, on the way home, *maybe* (speculation, yes, I know, no need to point that out) he was glancing in open windows to try to see a TV with the game on to see the score?
ecstatic
(32,653 posts)at the same time. The "looking in windows" part is yet another lie by GZ.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)Z has X-ray vision when it comes to those -- punks. f--king liar.
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)I'm still old school, don't use a cell phone for surfing the net etc so I forget how so many others do that for everything. 
Although, do we know that he had access to web from his phone? Not everyone does. It can depend on which plan one has. I don't know anything about his cell phone plan.
brush
(53,743 posts)Martin was on the phone with his friend. He wasn't looking in windows.
That is a zimmerman lie. We all should know by now that if someone lies in court to a JUDGE for God's sake (it's proven, and the judge jailed him for it), there's not too much you can believe that comes out of his mouth.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)He was probably checking the addresses. 
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Zimmerman has no plausible excuse for striking out after, and murdering an unarmed teenager. Those that support Zimmy, should be ashamed.
woolldog
(8,791 posts)is how Zimmerman got those injuries. Were they self-inclicted? Or was Trayvon defending himself? If the latter, why didn't Trayvon have any of Zimmerman's DNA on his hands or any cuts or bruising or broken knuckles on his right hand (he was right handed)?
MH1
(17,573 posts)if he was on his back, that would also explain the cuts on the back of his head. Fire gun, gun kicks into nose, head goes back and hits concrete.
woolldog
(8,791 posts)
SaveAmerica
(5,342 posts)and if done as close as that and the two of them were that close, I could see that as a possibility.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Except I don't believe his head hit any concrete. Martin's body was no where near the sidewalk, and several witnesses said they were fighting on the grass. But there's all kinds of stuff in grass like little stones and bits of tree branches where hitting one's head on the grass covered ground could produce the same kind of bitty abrasions he had. It was also February, so the grass would not have been lush and thick as in spring and summer but sparse and shriveled... probably just enough to lightly cover the dirt. From the re-enactment video that's how the grass looked to me.
MH1
(17,573 posts)We only have the defendant's word to go on here.
I'm not convinced he was laying on his back, either. (I only wanted to point out that it's a very plausible explanation of GZ's injuries.)
I don't think ANYONE knows except GZ - and I bet a psychologist would confirm that some people are quite capable of lying to themselves well enough to change the way they remember events. So even GZ doesn't absolutely know at this point.
We have conflicting stories from witnesses in a low-light situation where (I think) no one is claiming to be sure what they saw.
In my mind the jury has to stick to the solid facts. GZ has some minor injuries, but there is no way to know how he obtained them. What is known is that he carried a gun, followed a teenager who was doing nothing wrong, and who (before being followed, at least) did not approach GZ, and the teenager ended up dead of a bullet fired by GZ from his gun. These are the core known facts, and to me they point, at a minimum and depending on Florida law, to manslaughter or negligent homicide. I'm not sure what the technical requirements are for those charges or what they mean in terms of sentencing, but in any case, if FL law does not allow him to be convicted of SOMETHING, then it's a horrible law, a horrible precedent, and the law MUST be changed, or there will be a lot more killings.
kudzu22
(1,273 posts)It's a 9mm not a howitzer. I don't see GZ's injuries coming from recoil.
MH1
(17,573 posts)In the situation where it's close quarters (Z on his back and firing with the gun close to his face, for example) I would expect that it could happen. But I'm only mentioning it because someone else did on another thread, and there I didn't see anyone come along and say that a 9mm would never kick like that.
I probably have fired a pistol some time in my life, but if so it was a long time ago.
In any case, to me GZ's injuries are irrelevant, because a) he instigated the situation in the first place; b) his injuries were not remotely life-threatening; and c) as a permitted gun carrier he had responsibly to handle the situation (or not create it in the first place) so that an innocent and unarmed teenager didn't end up dead.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)stayed in his F-ing car, like the police dispatcher told him to.
To ME the salient point is that he CHASED MARTIN DOWN AND CONFRONTED HIM. Whether Martin inflicted some wounds on Zimmerman or not, in self defense, is immaterial. Zimmerman wouldn't have sustained any injuries whatsoever if he hadn't chased Martin down and confronted him. (In all this discussion, did we ever mention that Martin had a 'right' to STAND HIS GROUND, also? When confronted by an ARMED MAN? I can't believe the Florida court is discussing the right of THE CONFRONTER to defend himself, but not THE CONFRONTED.)
Whether a jury will see that or not is another question, unfortunately.
WinstonSmith4740
(3,055 posts)We are thinking with one mind on this issue!! I've mentioned before that I used to be a Neighborhood Watch Captain back in North Long Beach. Cops ALWAYS made it crystal clear to us that we were NOT to follow or confront anyone...we were to call them and then step out of it and stay inside. Zimmerman stalked this kid and you're damn right...Trayvon was confronted by an armed stranger who had been following him, and had EVERY right to "stand his ground" and protect himself. I just hope the DA brings this out at some point in the trial, hopefully in closing arguments so it's fresh in the jurors' minds.
woolldog
(8,791 posts)But I'm still curious as to how he got those injuries. It's a big mystery. And I don't like loose ends like that.
csziggy
(34,131 posts)By grabbing his arm or shoulder. If I were grabbed from behind by a stranger (or unexpectedly by anyone) I'd slam backwards with my elbow as hard as I could, trying to hit in the face or the solar plexus depending on our relative positions and heights. What if something like that happened, Zimmerman fell backwards, dragging Trayvon on top of him? A lot of that damage could be done by Trayvon simply trying to get free, and Zimmerman hanging on.
No punching, just a lot of flailing around - as described by one of the witnesses. If Zimmerman were on the bottom, he'd get the worst of things. I got a bigger goose egg on my forehead than any of those supposed lumps on Zimmerman's head just by tripping over my dog in the dark.
And Zimmerman's enough of a cowardly bully that I could see him shooting Trayvon once Trayvon got free from him.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)
protect our future
(1,156 posts)Here's something else. During the trial there has been talk of who confronted who. In order for Trayvon to be the "confronter," wouldn't he have had to approach Zimmerman's car before Zimmerman exited the car to pursue Trayvon? How can Trayvon be viewed as the "confronter" when he did not initiate the incident which resulted in his death?
Also, didn't the young woman who was talking with Trayvon tell him to run away after Trayvon noticed Zimmerman acting suspicious? (I think she told him that, although I'm so busy I can't spend much time watching TV or getting online so please forgive me if I'm wrong.) Well, of course he didn't run away while he was on the phone with this young lady. He's a kid, he's talking with his young female friend, and there's is no way he's going to appear to be a coward. Probably he would have run if he had not been on the phone with her. But he's seventeen years old and he wanted to impress her, just as any other seventeen-year-old male wound have done.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)if she told him to run, BUT...in the 911 call recording from Zimmerman....Zimmerman actually SAYS "oh, shit, he's running..." He's in his car on the phone to the police, then he says "oh shit, he's running" and you hear him get out of the car to follow him. The next day, when the police interviewed him they played that section of the tape for him, and he admitted to getting out of his car to chase Martin. One of the detectives said it sounded like he was running (after Martin) but Zimmerman denied he was actually RUNNING after him. Just walking. Then the police dispatcher asks him "are you FOLLOWING him?" "Yes." "Okay, we don't need you to do that." Then Zimmerman claims Martin confronted him when he was on his way BACK to his car.
But what's NOT in question is the fact that Zimmerman was following him around in his car, that he said Martin started to run (away), and that Zimmerman then got out of his car to pursue him. That evidence is both on the 911 call tape, and on the tape of the interview the next day with the detectives.
MH1
(17,573 posts)DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Neither hand had Zimmerman's blood. When I listened to the DNA testimony it seems that they only checked objects and fingernail scraping for DNA. One expert said that Zimmerman's injuries to both his face and the back of his head were consistent with a single blow. It looks like Martin popped Zimmerman with a strong left jab that caused Zimmerman to fall and hit his head on the sidewalk. It is pretty obvious that Martin did not like the response Zimmerman gave to his question of "why are you following me" and let him have it. But Zimmerman, with his 46 pound weight advantage, quickly took control and ended things with a single shot aimed directly at the heart.
Keep in mind that there was exactly 40 seconds between "why are you following me" and the shot rang out. We know that a yelling match resulted in several people calling 911 and that subsided a little following by this frantic scream that lasted about 5 seconds with an very short pause in the middle but once the shot rang out everything went silent. With near total darkness none of the witnesses report with precision what went on. No one reported seeing the flash from the gunshot but with a contact shot there is nothing to see.
Zimmerman has said that Martin had his knees on his arms pinning them to the ground. That causes problems with other things Zimmerman has said. As dark as it was how could Martin have seen the gun and how from that position could Martin reach back to grab at the gun. Doing so would free up Zimmerman's arms. Also, from that high position how could Martin be either slamming Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk or raining down blows MMA style because Zimmerman's head would be too far underneath Martin's body to effectively administer either of those blows. But that all conflicts with what the medical examiners have said regarding Zimmerman's injuries. And how can Martin be beating the crap out of Zimmerman at the same time he is going for Zimmerman's gun. He could be doing one or the other but not both. And that is the real weakness of Zimmerman's story. While the individual acts could have happened they could not have happened in conjunction with one another. Just like Martin could not have jumped out from behind bushes and also come up behind him and blind side him with a sucker punch. But if he was hit with a sucker punch in that manner how is it that they engaged in a shouting match. After the shouting started did Zimmerman get popped as he reached down to grab his gun and it the darkness Martin was unaware of what was unfolding and it cost him his life. Lot's of possibilities but none of them comport with Zimmerman's story. Oh, and Zimmerman's mom said she had never heard George scream like that. Maybe that is because it was Martin screaming instead. She wasn't nearly as steady or convincing as was Martin's mom. My guess is that the jury saw that as well.
obama2terms
(563 posts)Well that doesn't look good for Z, because 7:16 is a perfectly normal time for a kid to be out and about.
Tribalceltic
(1,000 posts)Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)K&R
Mariana
(14,854 posts)have been spreading every kind of bullshit they could come up with to convince people that Trayvon couldn't possibly have been an innocent kid who was just out running an errand. The story that Trayvon was out walking around very late on the night he was killed was just one of those lies.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)The fact that the media picked up these falsehoods and repeated them is an indictment of our media.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Lots of disinfo being spread around.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Maybe it was the Zimmerman at the police office at Midnight video. What in hades kept them from bringing him in for questioning for 5 freaking hours?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Even if he walks from this trial, just getting an investigation and a trial was an accomplishment. I honestly think everyone was just going to let it slide.
Really hoping this guy doesn't walk. 2nd degree murder might be pushing it, but I think he should at least get manslaughter.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)yardwork
(61,539 posts)from the first time I read about the case, right here on DU. All the circumstances point to Zimmerman unlawfully killing a teenage kid who was doing nothing wrong.
Zimmerman profiled, stalked, and murdered an unarmed child because of the child's appearance.
Response to yardwork (Reply #17)
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hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)Response to Tom Ripley (Reply #34)
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maddezmom
(135,060 posts)
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Zippy called the cops. THEY told him to stop following, they are on the way.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)I am so stealing that.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)Based on the impression from the news and stuff..
My husband said between 10-12 pm (which, honestly is about the time I thought too) - and when I told him 7:16 pm he had the same reaction I did - wth? that is a normal time for anyone to be out and about.
Zimmerman was looking for an excuse to shoot a black kid - racist asshole.
locdlib
(176 posts)And if I'm not mistaken, I believe one of the jurors made the comment during jury selection "Why was Trayvon out so late at night?" When did the 7:00 hour become late night? I guess for GZ and his ilk it's late if you happen to be black.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)It just goes to show you how many people make up their minds without caring about any of the actual details.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)2. If he wasn't up to something, why did he have his HOOD up? (IT WAS RAINING.)
3. If he wasn't up to something, why did he RUN? (BECAUSE THERE WAS A CREEPY GUY FOLLOWING HIM AROUND.)
In fact, Martin actually told Rachel Jaentel on the phone that there was a 'creepy-ass cracker' following him.
Now we've got the flying monkey squad pooping all over the internets that Martin's use of the term 'cracker' proves that HE was a racist...so leave poor little George Zimmerman alone with all the 'racial profiling' stuff. It was MARTIN who was the racist.
jbnow
(3,660 posts)which was her inventive name for the peaceful protests that helped reopen the investigation.
They thought she could be dismissed for cause but that was refused.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)SaveOurDemocracy
(4,400 posts)
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)One of the first things I checked was the time of day. How dark was it? Was it late at night? What time of year?
But we all know the Fox New audience disregards any facts that don't suit their purpose.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)this took place at 1 or 2 in the morning. And is convinced race doesn't play into it at all. I had to walk away from that conversation.
Powdered Toast Man
(381 posts)NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)I have always believed from day one, that Zimmerman killed Martin unjustifiably. The whole thing would have been totally avoided if Zimmerman did not put them both on a confrontational path, it's his fault, I've never sen how it couldn't be ? But I'm not so sure about the racism aspect, I think somebody, somewhere, at some point was going to be confronted by Zimmerman in that community, regardless of race. He trolled the community looking for an opportunity to play cop.
I somehow never really thought about the time, we eat dinner randomly, ....But yeah, coming and going around 7:00 seems pretty damn normal to me.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Pretty easy to be the cowboy when you have a loaded weapon at your disposal.
If that had been a blond haired, freckled, white boy, wearing the EXACT same clothing, Zimmerman probably would have said "Hi, howya doin'" and kept moving.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)to make race an issue. The litmus test on whether race was an issue or not is to do what you just did. Substitute a white kid wearing the same clothes, doing the same thing, and ask whether you think Zimmerman would have chased him down and confronted him the same way.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)You "know" it's racism, and to prove it...... lets pretend it was a white kid instead of Martin, then assume Zimmerman would just let the white kid go ? In your eyes that proves he is a racist ?
Zimmerman killed martin, because of a confrontation Zimmerman instigated,...... that is a fact.
Zimmerman would let a white kid pass, so that proves he is a racist for shooting Martin...is not a fact.
Zimmerman is a murderer, but he showed no pattern of being a racist murderer. Just because Martin is black, doesn't mean he was murdered because of his race.
And before you use your same "litmus" test baloney to prove I'm a racist. It is not racist to say that Tayvon Martin is black, and Zimmerman killed him, but not BECAUSE he is black.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)You DO NOT have to be a racist, or 'hate' a particular race in order to discriminate, or act differently towards one race than another.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)I think we agree that Zimmerman didn't kill Martin because he is a racist.
-but-
"You DO NOT have to be a racist, or "hate" a particular race in order to discriminate, or act differently towards one race than another. That's what you just wrote, correct ?
I think you need to look up and read the definition of "racism", then re-read what you just wrote. "Get it"...really ? That added to your ignorant blather, not mask it.
How exactly would you describe "racism" ?
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)I define racism as the belief that one race is superior or inferior to anther (morals, intelligence, work ethic, integrity, or any of a number of other characteristics), and/or the hatred of a particular race or races based on nothing other than A) their appearance, B ) their genetic background, or C) the actions of other people who share the same race.
That's my definition of racism. It's not my definition of prejudice, discrimination, stereotyping, differential treatment based on race, or racial profiling; because those are not necessarily based on a racial hatred or a belief that one race is superior or inferior to another.
However, I'm sure that if I look through enough dictionaries, I'll eventually find one that INCLUDES prejudice, discrimination or stereotyping under the rubric of "racism," but that particular Red Herring won't save your pathetic argument. Rather than follow you down your rabbit hole of what constitutes racism, let's just nail down your position.
Are you seriously claiming that Zimmerman's jumping to the conclusion that Martin was a crook, who was 'on drugs,' and was there to steal things or cause trouble had absolutely nothing to do with his appearance?
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)And I understand how much everybody wants to prove he is a racist, but to me the facts don't support it. To me Zimmerman's behavior, also taking into account past events, make me believe it was a matter of time before he pumped himself up enough to confront somebody and play cop.
What he "probably" would have done if it were a "blond haired freckled white boy", is kinda the argument the prosecution used, and subsequently hosed up this trial. Zimmerman followed Martin and when confronted by a stranger in the dark, Martin did beat on Zimmerman, and justifiably so. Zimmerman whom I believe WAS in fear of having his ass kicked, shot and killed Martin. None of this would have happened, ...Martin would never have felt threatened, he never would have kicked Zimmerman's ass, and Zimmerman would never have shot and killed Martin.......if Zimmerman had not instigated a confrontational event.
MADem
(135,425 posts)If Treyvon had been a blonde boy with an ice tea and a skittles in a hoodie, Zimmerman would have said "Hi howya doin'" not picked up his cellphone, not called Nahn Wun Wun, and not said "Fucking punks."
No one would have been followed in the dark.
He followed--and terrorized-- that child because of the color of his skin, and nothing more.
If that's not racism, what in hell is?
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)'blond freckled white boy", "Nahn wun wun"..... you want Zimmerman to be a racist so bad, you are willing to act out how racist HE is with a little racist street performance of your own. Yours is a worse argument than what the prosecution displayed, and that's saying something.
You, just like the prosecution have no evidence he killed Martin as a racially motivated hate crime, and just like the prosecution you seem unable to express what you think in a manner in which to convince people. I thought that a DU poster that had been here as long as you seem, would have been a good candidate for an adult conversation.
My bad, you see the case for what you want it to be, not for what the facts show.
Take care.
MADem
(135,425 posts)A teen ager is walking home from the convenience store.
Who in their right mind would mutter "fucking punks" at a kid returning from a candy run?
There are none so blind as those who flat out put their backs up and refuse to see.
How's that for "adult conversation?"
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)I sure as hell don't know you--just as well.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)Juror for the Defense.
The Prosecution could and should claim that Zimmerman's 'profiling' of Martin was motivated by race.
The Defense then puts a dozen people on the stand to claim they've never heard Zimmerman utter the word 'nigger,' or exhibit any racial hatred towards African Americans, and then says "See? There's no evidence that he's a RACIST, or that he hates African Americans,...so, his assumption that Martin must be on drugs, must be up to no good, must be there to steal stuff, was acting suspiciously....none of that could have had anything to do with Martin's race."
Simple syllogism, right?
Zimmerman never said anything racist against African Americans.
Zimmerman doesn't hate black people.
Ergo,
His targeting of Martin that night couldn't have had anything to do with Martin's race.
Brilliant.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)In my opinion, after the prosecution finished, all the defense had to do was stand up and say "ditto". Every single witness for the prosecution was a "reasonable doubt" factory.
The prosecution screwed it up, and I'm afraid Zimmerman will walk after unjustifiably killing another person. I think if "race", had been left out of it, from the president on down, Zimmerman would be convicted, but in the rush to convict a "racist", a murderer is going free.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)"I think if "race", had been left out of it, from the president on down, Zimmerman would be convicted, but in the rush to convict a "racist", a murderer is going free. "
Hahah! You just keep telling yourself that, if it makes you comfortable. Cognitive dissonance can be a wonderful thing.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)"What he "probably" would have done if it were a "blond haired freckled white boy", is kinda the argument the prosecution used, and subsequently hosed up this trial. "
No, that's not the argument the Prosecution used. Ever. And even if they'd wanted to, the Judge has forbidden any discussion of race as a contributing factor in the murder of Trayvon Martin, OR the defense of George Zimmerman.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)Trayvon fit the profile of one type of bad guy
in Z's brainodex file.
But he probably has white profiles in there too.
It's about his concept of bad guys, not race alone.
He just wants to get bad guys. If he can't find
them he has to create them, using his brain
files.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)that, if there is no evidence that Zimmerman hates African Americans, then he can't be a 'racist,' and THEREFORE his targeting of Martin couldn't have had anything to do with his race.
If I'm a teacher that believes in the common stereotype that Asians are inherently smarter than whites, blacks or hispanics, and then I just give all the asian kids in the class an A, rather than actually marking their tests...THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF DISCRIMINATION BASED ON RACE. It certainly doesn't mean I 'hate' asians, or even believe any NEGATIVE stereotypes about them. It simply means that I treat people differentially, based on a pre-existing BIAS that's based on race.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)I mean racism specifically on the part of
Zimmerman; but the very existence of
such a profile is founded in racism.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)Since pre-existing bias that's based on race, as you state is discrimination. Then by your logic "racism" can't exist, there is only discrimination.
Mexicans are lazy, free loading moochers, only here to take advantage of the United States. Are you suggesting that is a discriminatory statement, and not a racist one ?
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)I've already given you my definition of racism, and said that discrimination and stereotyping are not necessarily examples of racism. Sometimes they are, but not always.
The belief that one race is inferior to another is clearly racism.
The belief that you can predict what somebody is more likely to do based on their race (stereotyping) is not necessarily racism, although sometimes it can be. It's always wrong, but it's not always an example of racism. The example you used is BOTH a discriminatory statement and a racist one.
I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find a dictionary that defines 'stereotyping' as racism, and vice versa, but as I said, I'm not going to follow you down that rabbit hole. It's a red herring.
Just answer my question: Are you claiming that Zimmerman's jumping to the conclusion that Martin was "on drugs," was "a fucking punk," and was one of 'these assholes [that] always get away;' and that he was up to no good, and should be followed, scrutinized, or detained had absolutely nothing to do with his appearance?
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)If Trayvon had been white, Hispanic, or Asian, he'd still be alive, Zimmerman would have never gone after him.
Zimmerman had a history of complaining about young black men in his neighborhood.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Martin being black was a part of the "thug" profile Zimmerman had in his head. Had everything been the same but Martin was wearing a preppy sweater, loafers and carrying an umbrella Zimmerman would not have thought he was a criminal. Because the person that had recently been caught doing robberies in the neighborhood was not only black but male, young and wore the typical attire of a male teenage youth Zimmerman pulled those basic elements together that made him believe that Martin was also a criminal that had been robbing the neighborhood. Race was PART of the profile but not the sole part.
You said it yourself - Zimmerman had a problem with YOUNG, black, MEN in the neighborhood. Therefore Martin's race was not the only factor in Zimmerman's imagination of who in the neighborhood was one of those "fucking punks" robbing houses. Zimmerman was asked if Martin was white would he have still thought he was just as suspicious and he said he would. I actually don't doubt that. Had everything else been the same - the style of dress, his age and gender, I think he would have thought he was one of those "fucking punks" robbing houses. Yes, he also called about other black men of similar description, but that was only 5 out of about 50 calls he made.
I think it had a lot more to do with the combination of basic elements of the person he knew had just recently been caught robbing houses that at the time of the murder Zimmerman was out hunting for, and I think he went into hunter mode because it WASN'T him that caught that kid. I think he was extremely jealous of the fact that he didn't have a thing to do with that kid being caught and wanted his chance to be the local hero in catching one. That, I believe, was the biggest reason that of all the other times he didn't get out of his car that on this night he did... that he had been out hunting for someone to catch to be the hero of the neighborhood and that it just so happened that on this night he spotted Martin who fit his basic criteria of a criminal that he got from the basic criteria of that kid who had recently been caught.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)with suspicion (mostly) because of his race, and partly because of his dress style and age.
And if you honestly think Martin would still be dead right now if he looked like "Ricky Stratton" in a hoodie, instead of "Alfonso Spears" in a hoodie you're only fooling yourself, Pollyanna.
WinstonSmith4740
(3,055 posts)We heard over and over in the media and at the trial about this, but when it first broke the call from the cops to the station was released, and it sure didn't sound like any chase of any kind had ensued.
I (along with a whole lot of people) had always been under the impression Travon was killed around midnight, if not later. How'd that time frame get out there, and why was it allowed to persist for so long?
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)until midnight. I think thats where I got turned around on it. 5 hours to get his story together and who knows with what help.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)after the shooting. Never been explained who he was calling, but it wasn't his wife nor 911. Maybe an attorney or his father, the judge?
Wonder if the police, or later the DA, even tried to obtain the contents of Zippy's phone? They did with Trayvon's, although not in a very timely manner.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)And I still wonder why that wasn't brought out in court. If not 911 or his wife he had to have been calling someone that had influence to bail him out. And sorry, I have always disagreed that it was his father that had any kind of influence. His father was just a retired magistrate in Virginia. Why would that have any kind of pull in Florida? Zimmerman had far more connections his own self with local law enforcement than his father could possibly have had. However, I do think that call could have been to his father as a "holy shit, dad, what the hell do I do" kind of call.
As far as I can tell, the police nor the DA ever bothered to get his phone records, and by the time he was finally arrested the phone company no longer had them. There was so much epic fucking up by the police it's astounding. They didn't even bother with basic protocol like bagging Martin's hands. Once they found out who he was they didn't bother notifying his family even though they knew he was just a kid. Absolutely disgraceful. He wasn't even treated like a human being. It absolutely boggles my mind that not one person thought it was urgent that his family be contacted. That alone tells me everything I need to know about why they didn't treat this as any other homicide. To them he was just a useless black kid with no connections and no one that loved him or would care that he had just been gunned down. Had he been a dog they'd have been more determined to find and notify the owner, but they treated him and his family as worse than animals.
The only person I give any credit to at all for treating him like a human being was the officer that started CPR and knowing he was likely dead still tried to get someone to get him plastic wrap and vaseline so he could at least do his utmost.
OldRedneck
(1,397 posts)Twilight ended at 7:14 PM.
There was plenty of light for Z'man to see Martin.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=867&month=2&year=2012&obj=sun&afl=-13&day=1
Z'man was hunting for a suspicious black male to shoot.
WinstonSmith4740
(3,055 posts)a young man "walking while black" is enough for assholes like Zimmerman to become suspicious.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)There was a light rain falling at the time so there was no twilight that night. Now there was some street lights and light coming from windows in units within the complex but it really was quite dark at the time. That is a big reason the Zimmerman story about fighting over control of his gun makes no sense. Martin was unaware of a gun until Zimmerman pulled it out and that was the last 5 seconds before the shot rang out. Plus Zimmerman has said that Martins knees were shoulder high and pinning his arms down. Had Martin somehow seen the gun from that position and attempted to reach back for it Zimmerman could easily have toppled the 158 pound Martin off because he would have been off balance in that position.
Judi Lynn
(160,452 posts)for it to register correctly at the time.
Only way that could have worked out as Zimmerman said, would be if Trayvon Martin had the ability to look straight backwards without shifting his forward position.
[center] 
[/center]
You were helpful in making that point. Thank you.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)How could Zimmerman have pulled the gun out with Martin sitting on his chest with his thighs pressed against his sides and with his arms pinned down? No wonder he changed his story about his arms being pinned down (see his re-enactment video). And if his arms weren't pinned down how could he physically have gotten over or under Martin's thigh to grab it and so quickly? He hasn't got arms twice as long as the average person nor blade thin. The most logical way he got the gun out was that it was already out before he got into that pinned position. It HAS to be that way because it wouldn't have been physically possible for Zimmerman to be able to get this his holstered gun inside his waistband otherwise. THe fact alone that he changed his story from having his arms pinned down to not having them pinned down and trying to grab Martin's hands off of his head and off of his mouth and nose (all without getting so much of a single cell of Martin's DNA on him though his nose was supposedly bloody from the supposed punch) makes him a LIAR. And that's just ONE of the changes in his story.
If Martin felt the gun with his thigh why would he try to reach for it when he would have no idea it was a gun at all? If he somehow did know it was a gun why on earth would he have tried to grab it himself instead of clamping his legs tighter on Zimmerman to be certain Zimmerman COULDN'T get it? Why would he think he could grab it and get it turned around to use it any easier than Zimmerman could have? If he noticed Zimmerman had a gun only at the time he was sitting on him straddling him why in the world would he do the one thing that would give Zimmerman a better opportunity to get to it himself?
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Zimmerman's story looks like Swiss cheese and smells like Limburger cheese.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)How could Zimmerman have pulled the gun out with Martin sitting on his chest with his thighs pressed against his sides and with his arms pinned down? No wonder he changed his story about his arms being pinned down (see his re-enactment video). And if his arms weren't pinned down how could he physically have gotten over or under Martin's thigh to grab it and so quickly? He hasn't got arms twice as long as the average person nor blade thin. The most logical way he got the gun out was that it was already out before he got into that pinned position. It HAS to be that way because it wouldn't have been physically possible for Zimmerman to be able to get to his holstered gun inside his waistband otherwise.
The fact alone that he changed his story from having his arms pinned down to not having them pinned down and trying to grab Martin's hands off of his head and off of his mouth and nose (all without getting so much of a single cell of Martin's DNA on him though his nose was supposedly bloody from the supposed punch) makes him a LIAR. And that's just ONE of the changes in his story.
If Martin felt the gun with his thigh why would he try to reach for it when he would have no idea it was a gun at all? If he somehow did know it was a gun why on earth would he have tried to grab it himself instead of clamping his legs tighter on Zimmerman to be certain Zimmerman COULDN'T get it? Why would he think he could grab it and get it turned around to use it any easier than Zimmerman could have when it was positioned for Zimmerman to grab it in the correct position? If he noticed Zimmerman had a gun only at the time he was sitting on him straddling him why in the world would he do the one thing that would give Zimmerman a better opportunity to get to it himself?
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)We only have Zimmerman's account of when the gun came out. With so many holes in Zimmerman's story it is hard to accept his account. In other posts I have speculated that in order for Zimmerman to shoot Martin in the location and angle he did that they were most likely not even engaged at the time of the shooting with both of them standing when the gun was fired. And no logical reason has been given for why Martin's body was face down and roughly 8-10 feet from the sidewalk Martin was alleged to be beating Zimmerman's head into. The physical evidence just does not support much of anything Zimmerman has said happened.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)I have no problem believing that it was a lot darker in the narrow area between those two rows of buildings and wondered why they had no safety lighting for the walkway there. As a female I would never have felt safe walking alone between those rows of buildings in that total darkness. It's an invitation for nefarious people to lurk. I can't for the life of me imagine why they had no safety lighting for that walkway especially because anyone that tripped and fell because of the darkness would sue the pants off the home owners association. I don't understand why not having safety lighting there for a designated walkway isn't a code violation to begin with.
cntrygrl
(356 posts)I'll just throw this out here: Zim knew the law, he knew when he killed Martin that he HAD to make it look like self defense. When I went to obtain my carry permit (Florida) we were drilled on the laws and was tested on the knowledge of said laws. Zim knew FL law prior to being issued his permit. Anyone can lay back and throw their head back to the sidewalk to cause injury and he could have very easily hit himself in his face to cause injury. I feel he was scared enough to do these injuries himself. It is much better to cause injury to yourself when in fear of being arrested for murder.
Since Martin had no Zim DNA on him, it's, IMHO, more then likely Zim was never in danger of Martin.
Since when is the prior record of the victim but not the criminal used in court? Zim seemed to have had a problem with domestic violence in the past. This guy should not have been allowed to carry his weapon do to his history. I feel that since his father is a retired magistrate judge (Virginia) he was treated differently. Friends in high places? Absolutely.
This whole case stinks it's a circus which seems to be all too common in Flar-dee-DUH! The good old boy state of the south. Well, here's hoping it all comes back to bite them (Zim as well as all who participated in the lack of justice when Martin was murdered) in their lilly white aZZs!.
John2
(2,730 posts)this way, people do get off for murder or crimes because of jury bias. People that are watching this trial know the evidence. It boils down to if you believe Zimmerman's story or the evidence presented by the prosecution.
If you believe the defense and George Zimmerman, that Trayvon Martin circled back to kill George Zimmerman in front of witnesses, then George Zimmerman is innocent. There is no other ervidence, except George Zimmerman said it. None of the witnesses in the case testified or presented evidence to it.
If you believe George Zimmerman was walking back to his truck without any eyewitnesses testifying to it, then you believe George Zimmerman was telling the truth.
If you believe George Zimmerman had a loaded gun, with the safety off in his holster and had no intentions of using it on Martin, then you believe George Zimmerman's word, because no witness testified to that.
You just as well not convict, because all the evidence you need in this case is the word of George Zimmerman, right on down to Trayvon saying , you are going to die tonight, or you got me. If you actually believe that bull, George Zimmerman should be nominated for an Academy Award!
cntrygrl
(356 posts)why the prosecution hadn't brought up the fact that it was completely possible that Zim injured himself? It reminds me of the OJ fiasco .... if the glove doesn't fit .. blah-blah. The gloves were soaked with his victims blood. They shrank!! Marcia (and the rest of the prosecutors) never brought that fact out to the jury. Why not?
I have a difficult time trusting our judicial system.
renate
(13,776 posts)Everything you say makes sense to me.
Had you known this happened so early in the evening? I sure didn't. I thought it was around midnight--I guess I just couldn't even imagine a kid's walking down the street being "suspicious" at 7:15 in the evening.
I'm sickened by even the remotest possibility that Zimmerman, who started it all (regardless of whether Martin was at all violent when he tried to defend himself against a man with a gun, for pete's sake), might get off.
I second your wish that it all comes back to bite the bad guys in the ass. And, again--welcome to DU!
I had read it was evening time a while back but forgot about it until I recently read it here. I'm no expert but I honestly don't think Zim shooting Martin at night is a factor in this because being suspicious doesn't make one a criminal. Zim became the hunter, he stalked Martin. I think Martin knew this and possibly approached him to tell him to back off. He didn't know Zim from Adam. Zim is more than likely a coward unless he has his weapon on him. He was probably scared of Martin when they came face to face. Instead of explaining to Martin that there have been problems in the neighborhood lately and he was merely concerned, he probably somehow let his Clock do his talking by allowing Martin see that he had it. I don't know. One thing is sure, Zimmerman handled it all wrong and now he should pay for it. He's demonstrated it more than once that he's a liar. He also tried to hide his money with the help of his wife, who IMHO is not to be trusted either.
The fact that Zim followed him and even got out of his car says a lot. I honestly think he is a cowardly punk who decided to stalk the wrong person that night. Again, he knew the 'stand your ground' laws here in FL. Nothing anyone says can convince me different.
Thank you for welcoming me here.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)while getting his head pounded into the sidewalk, and his general person beat up MMA style. One shot, right to the heart. If there were that kind of fighting going on, he would have gotten at least two shots off just because of the fight and his adrenaline racing through his body, and for either one to go square into Trayvon's chest like that would have been the most amazing luck.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Was it lodged in Martin's body, or found somewhere at the scene? If it's been mentioned before, I missed it
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)
targetpractice
(4,919 posts)From my memory of watching the medical examiner's testimony… I think the bullet pierced the the heart and a fragment punctured a lung.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Indicating a straight on shot that entered 1 inch to the left of center, nipple high. The jacket fragmented and both lungs were collapsed by the fragments. That left Martin with no lung capacity with which to utter a single word, certainly not "you got me".
Given the trajectory and the location of the bullet wound where would the gun have had to be positioned for a straight on contact shot. For one, it would have to have been between Martin's arms and about 6-7 inches below his chin. That would be enough to make anyone scream and not the person with the gun in their hand. Now if Martin was on top and leaning over Zimmerman as they claim then the gun would have had to been directly in front of Zimmerman's face. Frankly, I think they were actually disengaged at the moment the shot was fired because the gun could have easily been positioned where it was it that were the case rather than the hard to position location necessary in order for Zimmerman's story to hold up. And it also answers why Martin's DNA is not on the gun nor on Zimmerman's jacket collar where a slumping Martin's face should have fallen since he was already leaning forward.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Which is why it didn't come out his back though he was shot at such close range. It fragmented once it entered his body causing a lot more damage than had it been a regular bullet. All that was left of it would have been bitty little fragments scattered trough his chest cavity. Had he been shot while on a surgical table in a hospital he still couldn't have been saved. His heart was basically destroyed beyond repair. Zimmerman knew when he took that shot that he was killing him... that there was no way he could have been saved given the bullets he used.
proReality
(1,628 posts)My husband and I thought it was around 11:00 when Trayvon was murdered. It wasn't till this week that we heard the time was actually still evening.
tblue
(16,350 posts)in his Criminology class? He said he wanted to become a cop so he could "get fugitives" because they always "get away." That's a rough paraphrasing, but this dude wanted to put a bullet in somebody so badly.
He sees a black kid and that gets his juices flowing. I have no doubt he sought out a confrontation just so he could pull that trigger and kill a black man.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)I only recall hearing that at Friday's argument about the request to dismiss the case.
The fact that he said that is just freaky as hell. It tells me that he was hell bent on ACTING like a cop with his own protocol and his own made up rules (read: no rules) since he couldn't actually be a real one.
THat really makes me think that this was more 1st degree murder, that he had every intension of pulling the trigger for any reason, and that he had his gun out probably at the start.
I've always been suspicious about what he was telling the dispatcher on the phone. He seemed to be calculatedly giving reasons that this poor kid was up to no good instead of just walking home and trying to get away from the nut that was following him. I never believed that Martin actually approached his car and that Zimmerman made that up along with everything else so there would be a record before the encounter that gives weight to everything that came after.
His total lack of remorse is stunning even immediately after the shooting. And his saying on national tv that he has no regrets, would do it all again in the same circumstances and that it was even GOD'S PLAN are just sick. If nothing else, his having said that would certainly jar the jury. That all by itself is just stunning.
Judi Lynn
(160,452 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Racism does exist on this forum AND in so-called Liberal America!!!
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)I want Zimmerman locked away forever as an example to other would-be "stand your grounders".
SaveAmerica
(5,342 posts)I read the details yesterday and some of the comments Zimmerman made were so ludicrus. Saying that there was a kid walking in the rain and he looked suspicious because he was walking slowly and it was *raining*!!.
I have a teen who lives for this crazy rain-soaked weather we've been having lately. You can find him walking slowly through the rain after he's walked to the gas station 3 blocks down to get his can of soda and bag of chips.
targetpractice
(4,919 posts)How dare that "fucking punk."
Rex
(65,616 posts)Some creepy shit really.
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)A big assed 16oz can of AZ Iced Tea along with a bag of Skittles.
Hard friggen candy can do some harm. Hit in the right spot and a Skittle might leave a slight welt.
displacedtexan
(15,696 posts)or some such nonsense.
dusty trails
(174 posts)I think what he really thought was "Kid's black".
libodem
(19,288 posts)Where he is not on Xanax. I believe he made up all the alledged conversations and all of the alledged fight script.
FN LIAR.
we can do it
(12,173 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)I pray Zimmerman is convicted of second degree murder. He went after Trayvon like an animal with evil intent in his heart and hateful words in his mouth: "Fucking punks. These assholes, they always get away." Justice must be served.
