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Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:05 PM

It's a dark day in our nation when high-level authorities use every method to silence dissent

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."



It's a dark day in our nation when high-level authorities will seek to use every method to silence dissent. But something is happening, and people are not going to be silenced. The truth must be told, and I say that those who are seeking to make it appear that anyone who opposes ... is a fool or a traitor or an enemy... is a person that has taken a stand against the best in our tradition.

"the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in a period of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality

" When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism & economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered.... don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world "


- Martin Luther King.


Martin Luther King. You know the great hero they whitewashed and distort to use as a political prop. Oh what Martin would say today!

211 replies, 21152 views

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Reply It's a dark day in our nation when high-level authorities use every method to silence dissent (Original post)
Catherina Jul 2013 OP
Pholus Jul 2013 #1
Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #4
kelliekat44 Jul 2013 #50
Pholus Jul 2013 #65
Orrex Jul 2013 #120
Pholus Jul 2013 #121
awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #124
JDPriestly Jul 2013 #85
magellan Jul 2013 #110
SylviaD Jul 2013 #139
magellan Jul 2013 #142
Th1onein Jul 2013 #2
tomp Jul 2013 #161
Zen Democrat Jul 2013 #183
quinnox Jul 2013 #3
Th1onein Jul 2013 #7
quinnox Jul 2013 #12
Hydra Jul 2013 #30
bvar22 Jul 2013 #45
ChairmanAgnostic Jul 2013 #46
nineteen50 Jul 2013 #55
siligut Jul 2013 #63
bushisanidiot Jul 2013 #97
bvar22 Jul 2013 #104
Blanks Jul 2013 #172
bvar22 Jul 2013 #181
Blanks Jul 2013 #186
Bonhomme Richard Jul 2013 #132
zeeland Jul 2013 #166
truebluegreen Jul 2013 #167
Hekate Jul 2013 #155
Hekate Jul 2013 #156
bvar22 Jul 2013 #184
SunSeeker Jul 2013 #158
truebluegreen Jul 2013 #168
bushisanidiot Jul 2013 #205
zeeland Jul 2013 #163
Th1onein Jul 2013 #149
Skidmore Jul 2013 #173
Th1onein Jul 2013 #174
BOG PERSON Jul 2013 #114
zeeland Jul 2013 #162
Pholus Jul 2013 #8
awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #125
ProSense Jul 2013 #5
HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #9
ProSense Jul 2013 #21
dawg Jul 2013 #23
ProSense Jul 2013 #27
dawg Jul 2013 #36
zeemike Jul 2013 #84
ProSense Jul 2013 #87
zeemike Jul 2013 #93
bvar22 Jul 2013 #185
truedelphi Jul 2013 #195
NoMoreWarNow Jul 2013 #102
sigmasix Jul 2013 #111
Number23 Jul 2013 #134
totodeinhere Jul 2013 #170
OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #38
cheapdate Jul 2013 #106
OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #137
cheapdate Jul 2013 #145
OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #147
cheapdate Jul 2013 #150
OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #153
cheapdate Jul 2013 #179
OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #180
cheapdate Jul 2013 #188
OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #196
cheapdate Jul 2013 #201
OnyxCollie Jul 2013 #202
cheapdate Jul 2013 #203
Life Long Dem Jul 2013 #66
dawg Jul 2013 #70
Life Long Dem Jul 2013 #71
dawg Jul 2013 #72
Life Long Dem Jul 2013 #75
dawg Jul 2013 #78
Life Long Dem Jul 2013 #79
dawg Jul 2013 #80
magellan Jul 2013 #129
brett_jv Jul 2013 #105
truedelphi Jul 2013 #118
Life Long Dem Jul 2013 #127
totodeinhere Jul 2013 #171
truedelphi Jul 2013 #117
graham4anything Jul 2013 #52
nineteen50 Jul 2013 #60
Vattel Jul 2013 #82
JDPriestly Jul 2013 #115
totodeinhere Jul 2013 #169
brooklynite Jul 2013 #6
Th1onein Jul 2013 #10
HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #14
LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #57
rusty fender Jul 2013 #62
HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #64
treestar Jul 2013 #99
HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #109
ConservativeDemocrat Jul 2013 #177
frazzled Jul 2013 #53
xtraxritical Jul 2013 #73
tavalon Jul 2013 #143
HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #13
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #15
dawg Jul 2013 #29
RC Jul 2013 #59
HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #103
dawg Jul 2013 #26
chimpymustgo Jul 2013 #42
AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #28
chervilant Jul 2013 #35
AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #88
chervilant Jul 2013 #92
AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #94
chervilant Jul 2013 #176
xtraxritical Jul 2013 #74
Demit Jul 2013 #40
usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #41
Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #11
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #17
Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #20
HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #24
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #43
Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #68
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #81
Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2013 #83
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #95
nashville_brook Jul 2013 #90
Number23 Jul 2013 #135
JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #165
Number23 Jul 2013 #191
JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #194
Marr Jul 2013 #123
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #128
Marr Jul 2013 #131
Dr Hobbitstein Jul 2013 #175
marions ghost Jul 2013 #192
chervilant Jul 2013 #37
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #89
chervilant Jul 2013 #96
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #130
chervilant Jul 2013 #141
graham4anything Jul 2013 #51
LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #58
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #69
LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #200
truedelphi Jul 2013 #116
tavalon Jul 2013 #144
nashville_brook Jul 2013 #91
SunSeeker Jul 2013 #159
HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #16
Catherina Jul 2013 #22
TransitJohn Jul 2013 #18
Catherina Jul 2013 #112
The Link Jul 2013 #19
Catherina Jul 2013 #32
Zorra Jul 2013 #25
Catherina Jul 2013 #31
Zorra Jul 2013 #61
Catherina Jul 2013 #86
WillyT Jul 2013 #33
Solly Mack Jul 2013 #34
dbackjon Jul 2013 #39
Demit Jul 2013 #44
brooklynite Jul 2013 #47
Demit Jul 2013 #107
brooklynite Jul 2013 #48
LineLineLineReply .
ProSense Jul 2013 #49
CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #76
treestar Jul 2013 #100
graham4anything Jul 2013 #54
joshcryer Jul 2013 #152
forestpath Jul 2013 #56
Enthusiast Jul 2013 #67
great white snark Jul 2013 #77
Number23 Jul 2013 #138
snagglepuss Jul 2013 #98
Agony Jul 2013 #101
Catherina Jul 2013 #113
Agony Jul 2013 #119
Catherina Jul 2013 #148
ProSense Jul 2013 #108
ReRe Jul 2013 #122
JoePhilly Jul 2013 #126
Number23 Jul 2013 #136
DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #154
Number23 Jul 2013 #157
JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #208
MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #133
DeSwiss Jul 2013 #140
snot Jul 2013 #146
LineReply .
blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #151
Judi Lynn Jul 2013 #160
stonecutter357 Jul 2013 #164
wisteria Jul 2013 #178
Zorra Jul 2013 #189
NoodleyAppendage Jul 2013 #182
Catherina Jul 2013 #187
Oilwellian Jul 2013 #190
99Forever Jul 2013 #193
Rex Jul 2013 #197
Catherina Jul 2013 #198
Rex Jul 2013 #199
liberal_at_heart Jul 2013 #204
Jamaal510 Jul 2013 #206
JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #211
mia Jul 2013 #207
baldguy Jul 2013 #209
marmar Jul 2013 #210

Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:09 PM

1. The American way would be to sue. Course when it was tried, there was a small problem

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/why_you_cant_sue_the_government_for_spying_on_you/

Who needs "tort reform" when this is the law of the land...

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Response to Pholus (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:12 PM

4. are you serious? lol.

 

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Response to Pholus (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:26 PM

50. I'm dissenting and no one is stopping me. What do you mean?

 

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Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #50)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:15 PM

65. You cannot sing to a stone. nt

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Response to Pholus (Reply #65)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:58 PM

120. You can if you're a rock singer.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #120)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:00 PM

121. Alright, I feel the burn.... ;)

But not quite as good as the Monty Python reference here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3177848

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Response to Orrex (Reply #120)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:24 PM

124. DUzy. nt

 

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Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #50)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:10 PM

85. In addition to depriving you of your rights to a free press, free speech, free trial, etc.,

they collect this information in order to conduct psy-ops on you, to manipulate you. All your "likes" and "dislikes" are theirs. All the names of your friends are theirs. All the news media you read, the names of the books you read, all of it can be categorized, analyzed and mapped out so that you are a bunch of numbers and a chart on the wall, and then your chart can be matched to other charts, and you can be controlled through propaganda.

How do you like them donuts?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #85)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:45 PM

110. I'm sure they like them donuts just fine because they have nothing to hide

At least, not until a Rethug gets back into the WH. Then watch the excuses fly for being okay with it now but not then.

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Response to magellan (Reply #110)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 10:27 PM

139. Exactly! 100% bang on. How can some here be so intellectually dishonest? This is DU!!! n/t

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Response to SylviaD (Reply #139)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 10:43 PM

142. I don't know

But I understand it. I ran a fan club once, and the behavior is eerily similar to that of a celebrity's most fervent fans. It's pitiable, but it's human nature.

Welcome!

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:10 PM

2. The same dark forces that existed in his day have grown in our time.

They are behemoths now. But we must still fight for our freedoms. Not in Iraq, or Afghanistan, but right here, in America.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 07:30 AM

161. the systematic oppression of protest by the government...

 

...has been a growing trend for over 150 years. anything that stands in the way of maximizing profits is brutally suppressed either directly by the government (including the courts) or by its informal agents.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:29 PM

183. This is a machine from WWII that has had increasing control over time.

All this hand-wringing over Obama. The presidents are considered transients. Please spare me the outrage because it's naive.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:11 PM

3. K&R, if only we had leaders like King nowadays

 

I'm afraid they are sorely needed. America has lost its way, and instead, we get one mediocrity after another.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:14 PM

7. Leaders are not born. They step forth when they are needed.

I have never agreed with those who think that we need some savior to lead us out of darkness. Each of us must be the light out of darkness.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:18 PM

12. Men have to be led, that is reality

 

And the leaders who do that have been very wanting lately in this country. IMHO.

I'm not saying we need a savior, but a great president surely couldn't hurt at this point.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:43 PM

30. We're not allowed to have a great president

We're only allowed Corp safe approved people to vote for.

If we have a great leader in the future, they're going to have to come from outside the system and probably from the bottom. We're not getting any help from the top, despite what some have suggested.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:06 PM

45. We HAD a chance.

Opportunities like this are rare.
They come only once a generation.
This one was thrown away on "Centrist" bi-partisan appeasement.


[font size=5]Obama's Army, Jan. 21, 2009[/font]

[font size=5]"Oh, What could have been."[/font]



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:10 PM

46. I wonder if he senses or regrets what he has tossed away.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:35 PM

55. It is amazing how fast they have walked away in face of

his action. I agree what a waste, but those same need to gather and force his hand to do as we believed he would. You can use spying, secrecy and controlling the messages and news or you can walk in front of the people. Our leaders think we will never show up so they use the first and must sell out to those who own the apparatus to do so.

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Response to nineteen50 (Reply #55)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:56 PM

63. ". . . must sell out to those who own the apparatus to do so."

I am aghast at how spying, secrecy and controlling the messages can affect an individual's life. This is what concerns me the most regarding the NSA's program. I think of the movie, The Adjustment Bureau, without the magic, only the approved people will succeed.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:41 PM

97. And THAT is the problem. "Centrist" is now a bad word on both the far left

and the entire right.

President Obama was elected to lead the entire nation, not just the left.
All presidents should be centrists. AWOL Bush was not. McCain wouldn't have been.
And the asshole Mitt Romney surely would not have governed from the center.

I stand with President Obama.

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Response to bushisanidiot (Reply #97)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:02 PM

104. No one can LEAD from The Center.

Thank gawd FDR & LBJ didn't settle for what was In-the-Middle.
If LBJ had settled,
Obama wouldn't be president today.


"In politics the middle way is none at all."
-President John Adams


[font color=firebrick size=4][center]"The only thing in the Middle of the Road
are Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos."
--Jim Hightower
[center][/center][/font]



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #104)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:35 AM

172. The composition of congress was much different under both.

...and the mood of the nation too. There are a lot of right-wingers who despise the policies of FDR, and based on the make-up of the house, I'd say they are a force to take serious (particularly with the gerrymandering).

I agree that Obama could be more to the left, but it isn't realistic to expect him to govern as far to the left as FDR who had a democratic controlled congress for his entire time in office.

At that time the democrats were much more successful at blaming the republicans for the Great Depression, and were able to stay in power as a result of it.

The recent meltdown was orchestrated such that a significant portion of the country blames it on Obama.

Sure, he could do some things different, even better, but he doesn't have the same advantages that FDR and LBJ did.

A president with control of only one half of congress can't be expected to govern as though they control both halves. It just isn't realistic.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #172)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:22 PM

181. Excuses, excuses....always with the excuses.

"Strong and successful presidents (meaning those who get what they want - whether that happens to be good for the country or not) do not accept "the best deal on the table". They take out their carpentry tools and the build the goddam piece of furniture themselves. Strong and successful presidents do not get dictated to by the political environment. They reshape the environment into one that is conducive to their political aspirations."

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/17





[font size=3]"A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus."[/font]
-Rev Martin Luther King Jr.




You will remember them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their excuses.



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #181)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:00 PM

186. Give me an example of a president...

Who has successfully forwarded their agenda despite having the opposition party in the majority in congress.

It hasn't, doesn't and won't happen because it isn't realistic.

The makeup of congress is representative of the attitude of Americans. Currently the house is controlled by the opposition party.

Quoting a phrase from MLK doesn't make it a fact. I believe that he believed it and I believe that you believe it. The evidence on the other hand; points to a different outcome.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Presidents_and_control_of_Congress

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Response to bushisanidiot (Reply #97)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:13 PM

132. The other problem is that the definition of word centrist has shifted...

To the far right. All that is left beyond that are the crazies or fascist.

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Response to bushisanidiot (Reply #97)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:50 AM

166. if you "stand with Obama"

you might want to consider changing your screen name as Obama would not agree with you.

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Response to bushisanidiot (Reply #97)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:56 AM

167. Out of curiosity, define "far left"

 

and name some current individuals/leaders who embody it. Thanks.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #45)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 03:05 AM

155. People fucking sat back and let him do all the work, then bitched at the results

People fucking stayed home in 2010 either because they didn't know or didn't care or just wanted to show him who's boss. And then they bitched about those results too.

OH, WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN.

The slogan was "Yes, WE can," not "Yes, Obama can do it all by his lonesome."

For of all sad words of tongue and pen,
The saddest are these,
"It might have been."
John Greenleaf Whittier

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Response to Hekate (Reply #155)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 03:08 AM

156. For of all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these, It might have been. That's on US.

People fucking sat back and let Obama do all the work, then bitched at the results

People fucking stayed home in 2010 either because they didn't know or didn't care or just wanted to show him who's boss. And then they bitched about those results too.

OH, WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN.

The slogan was "Yes, WE can," not "Yes, Obama can do it all by his lonesome."

For of all sad words of tongue and pen,
The saddest are these,
"It might have been."
John Greenleaf Whittier

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Response to Hekate (Reply #156)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:37 PM

184. Harry Truman, predicting 2010 and explaining why:

[font size=3]
"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."

---President Harry Truman
QED:2010[/font]


[font size=3]Leadership! "The Buck Stops HERE!" NO Excuses![/font]



It is the JOB of LEADERSHIP to motivate the troops,
and give them a reason to fight.
When the troops are NOT motivated,
it is NEVER their fault,
though poor leadership will always attempt to blame them.


No, when the troops are NOT motivated,
it is ALWAYS the fault of Leadership,
and when Leadership is strong enough to accept that responsibility,
the problem can be solved.
When weak leadership blames the troops,
it only ensures more failure.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #155)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 05:16 AM

158. +100000000000000!

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Response to Hekate (Reply #155)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:08 AM

168. Certainly the saddest words.

 

But don't try to lay this off on voters being lazy, letting President Obama do all the work, and staying home in 2010. Ask yourself why they stayed home.

I'll tell you why: because he had the opportunity to change things, and yet kept the same old people, the same old policies... If the people had something to point to, even something that he tried to do and failed, if it would have been a major change, something to fight for, like REAL universal health care, instead of lame health-insurance-reform-that-will-go-into-effect-some-years-from-now, or really changing foreign policy, or a Justice Dept. that cared about the banksters...ugh.

Of course President Obama couldn't do it alone, nor could any President. The point is he didn't even seem to try. (Larry Summers and Tim Geithner? puhleeeze.)

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Response to Hekate (Reply #155)

Tue Jul 9, 2013, 10:41 AM

205. +1

my thoughts EXACTLY!

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #45)


Response to quinnox (Reply #12)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:29 AM

149. I don't think a president is going to do it. They are bought and paid for.

We're going to have to look to ourselves. Amongst ourselves.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #149)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:39 AM

173. If by "they" you mean our esteemed legislators,

then I will say that is one of the more astute observations I have seen on this board in a while. No president can do this alone now and not with the Congress he has been given. 2014 is an important election year.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #173)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:06 AM

174. ALL of them, from the president on down. They've all got to be replaced.

I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but it is true.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #7)


Response to Th1onein (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 07:36 AM

162. +1

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Response to quinnox (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:14 PM

8. Isn't the actual point to make sure we don't?

Hard to rise up when you can be blackmailed instantly the moment someone is annoyed by you.

Makes the then-Senator Obama's abrupt about face on the "Patriot" Act somewhat suspicious.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:28 PM

125. Leaders get shot...

 

they got that message through loud and clear in 63 and 68.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:13 PM

5. "I submit that an individual who breaks a law...

MLK:

I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

What Kind Of Coward Is Edward Snowden?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023169023

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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:17 PM

9. Rosa Parks broke the "law".

 

Only authoritarians are critical of breaking unconstitutional laws.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:27 PM

21. Rosa Parks fled to Hong Kong? n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:30 PM

23. Maybe she would have ...

if she had reason to believe she might get the Bradley Manning treatment.

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Response to dawg (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:39 PM

27. Yeah,

"if she had reason to believe she might get the Bradley Manning treatment."

...because civil rights activists were treated with respect and invited over for tea?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #27)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:51 PM

36. She was a very brave woman.

She had to spend a night in jail, and then faced trials and appeals and all sorts of difficulties in her personal life afterwards.

The two situations are completely different. For Rosa Parks, the arrest and the trial were the point of the thing. She disobeyed an unjust law in order to shame them into changing it. She knew that convicting her would be a huge embarrassment for Alabama and the United States. Getting the law overturned was the point.

For Snowden, releasing the information was the point. In order to do that, he felt he needed to be outside of prison, not in it. And after the way Bradley Manning was treated, who could blame him for fleeing the country?

Perhaps he isn't as brave as Rosa Parks. Perhaps he isn't a nice guy at all.

But forgive me if I would rather know what my government is doing that to *not* know what my government is doing.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #27)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:10 PM

84. Compared to today?...yes.

In those days no one believed it was moral to torture people...that is different now...there are lots of them that do think it is OK...
The civil rights war was won because the majority of people still had some moral compass left, and had not been brainwashed into accepting the immorality of it as necessary to keep us safe.
Rosa Parks today would be called a whiner and they would talk about how she had boxes in her garage and was not friendly to her neighbors.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #84)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:13 PM

87. Ever heard of

"Compared to today?...yes. In those days no one believed it was moral to torture people...that is different now...there are lots of them that do think it is OK... "

...John Lewis? How about MLK?

Snowden is a coward.



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Response to ProSense (Reply #87)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:25 PM

93. If he was a coward.

He would have kept his mouth shut and collected that fat paycheck.
Cowards go along to get along...and never question those in authority.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #93)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:45 PM

185. X10000

[font size=3]
"Cowards go along to get along...and never question those in authority.
He would have kept his mouth shut and collected that fat paycheck."
[/font]
---zeemike, Post #93






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Response to zeemike (Reply #93)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:21 PM

195. + anyone who cares about our inalienable rights.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #87)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:58 PM

102. let's not forget that MLK Jr was assassinated, very likely by a FBI-run conspiracy

 

and back in those days, we didn't see the pattern so clearly of what the PTB did to those who spoke out.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #87)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:45 PM

111. this x 100,000,000 NT

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Response to zeemike (Reply #84)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:46 PM

134. OH MY GOD

JUST FUCKING OH MY GOD

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Response to ProSense (Reply #27)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:30 AM

170. She wasn't thrown into solitary confinement for months on end and the UN did not

report that she was tortured. Rosa Parks did not face such treatment but Edward Snowmen surely would if he returned.

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Response to dawg (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:53 PM

38. Or worse, the Anwar Al-Awlaki treatment.

 

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Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #38)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:23 PM

106. Anwar Al Awlaki was an implacable enemy of the United States.

His sole purpose was to persuade others to take up arms and kill American soldiers. He was actually pretty good at his job. I'm sure he was absolutely convinced of the rightness of his cause and approached his job with passion and commitment. He's dead now.

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Response to cheapdate (Reply #106)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 09:15 PM

137. Sounds like it would have been a slam-dunk trial.

 

Instead, the US outsourced it judicial system to Yemen.

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Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #137)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:13 AM

145. I don't how you can say the United States outsourced his killing.

Yemen didn't kill him, the United States did. He was merely in Yemen when the US killed him.

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Response to cheapdate (Reply #145)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:18 AM

147. He was tried in absentia in Yemen.

 

Yemen sentences Awlaki in absentia
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2011/01/2011117133558339969.html

Yemen has sentenced in absentia Anwar al-Awlaki, the US-born Muslim religious leader, to 10 years in jail in connection with the killing of a French engineer.

A court in Sanaa, the Yemeni capital, on Monday sentenced to death another man convicted of the killing, but al-Awlaki, who is wanted dead or alive by the US, is accused of motivating the crime.

Please provide a link to his trial in the US.

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Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #147)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:46 AM

150. The order to kill Awlaki was given almost a year

before his trial in absentia started in Yemen. The Yemeni trial was unrelated to the US killing of Awlaki.

The government argued that killing Awlaki without a trial was justified based on his ongoing role in planning and supporting the killing of Americans.



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Response to cheapdate (Reply #150)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:29 AM

153. Due process is optional now.

 

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Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #153)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:16 PM

179. The use of lethal force to stop a crime in progress is not an abrogation of due process.

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Response to cheapdate (Reply #179)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:19 PM

180. What crime in progress was being committed?

 

And what was Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki doing?

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Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #180)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 03:09 PM

188. According to the government:

<< ....

* Awlaki specifically directed Umar Faruq Abdulmutallab in December 2009 to detonate the “underwear” bomb on board a Christmas Day Northwest Airlines flight to Detroit. The government said that Awlaki told Abdulmutallab to detonate the bomb while over U.S. airspace so as to maximize casualties.

* In October 2010, AQAP attempted to explode two U.S. cargo planes by detonating explosives hidden in ink cartridges mailed to synagogues in Chicago. The U.S. government said that Awlaki directly supervised this failed terrorist plot.

* In 2010, Awlaki communicated with Rajib Karim, then a British airlines worker, seeking a way to get a bomb aboard a plane at Heathrow Airport. Karim was convicted in March 2011 in a British court on terrorism charges, and sentenced to 30 years in prison. >>

Read More: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/09/the-us-case-against-awlaki/

Those are pretty serious crimes. I understand that he wasn't arrested, charged, tried in a US court and convicted. But the evidence that he actually was involved in many past crimes and was, in fact, in the process of actually preparing to commit other serious crimes involving much loss of life, was really overwhelming.

Awlaki publicly took great pride in the role he'd played in convincing others to kill Americans. And a number of captured enemy fighters in turn gave much credit to Awlaki for giving them the courage to take up arms against the evil Americans. Awlaki's internet recruiting websites, his videos and other recruiting materials were unquestionably effective tools in his fight against America.

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Response to cheapdate (Reply #188)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:19 PM

196. None of those are "crimes in progress."

 

Nothing immediate.

It's hard to believe that it was not "feasible" to apprehend Al-Awlaki since the government knew exactly where he was.

You didn't answer my question as to why his 16 year old son was killed, either.

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Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #196)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 05:38 PM

201. The president and his advisers reached a different conclusion,

that Awlaki's ongoing activities, for example his attempt to get explosives on board an airplane at Heathrow Airport, were serious enough to warrant lethal force.

There were very real and serious difficulties with apprehending Awlaki in a remote area in Yemen. It's not as easy as sending a squad car out to his cave.

Awlaki's 16 year old son was killed due to his proximity to other, targeted persons.

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Response to cheapdate (Reply #201)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 09:38 PM

202. I see.

 

"The President and his advisors" are judge, jury, and executioner.

That's the kind of thing DU used to worry about, back when George Bush was President...

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Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #202)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 06:48 PM

203. That would appear to be the case,

although the actual execution was carried out by the drone operator and not by the president, so the metaphor is something of a stretch.

Most people agree that the government has a legitimate responsibility to try to prevent terrorist attacks and to protect military and diplomatic personnel in the field. Apart from al Awlaki, no other American citizens have been specifically targeted for killing. There was substantial evidence that Al Awlaki was responsible for past crimes and was in the process of planning and organizing future crimes. He was convicted in absentia of major crimes in courts in Yemen and in the United Kingdom. Inserting a special operations team into Yemen to try to capture or kill Awlaki would have entailed major risks and difficulties of its own, and the damage and risk of civilian casualties is easily greater with either a cruise missile strike or with conventional bombs dropped by manned aircraft.

I'm on the fence over the killing of al Awlaki. He was unquestionably a very dangerous person.

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Response to dawg (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:22 PM

66. "Bradley Manning treatment"

 

Manning and his supporters claim that he was held in inhumane conditions in Quantico, but his lawyer, David Coombs, said he was not tortured or mistreated.

https://piperbayard.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/bradley-manning-the-facts-amidst-the-fury/

While Manning was not tortured, Miklaszewski’s sources say, he was improperly put on suicide watch for two days last week.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/01/27/dod-press-office-scrambling/

If Manning was tortured with solitary confinement, then there are thousands of inmates in the US right now being tortured. About 80,000 in fact.

There are 80,000 Americans currently held in solitary confinement.

http://www.askmen.com/entertainment/special_feature_400/483_solitary-confinement-5-things-you-didnt-know.html

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #66)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:32 PM

70. Standing up for harsh treatment of a prisoner and solitary confinement.

That is so sad. But, by all means, line up some more links to "prove" your point.

I especially liked the one from askmen.com. See if you can find me one from Maxim or Men's Health.

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Response to dawg (Reply #70)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:38 PM

71. Solitary confinement may be harsh treatment but not "torture"

 

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #71)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:44 PM

72. That's why, in my post that you responded to, I referred to ...

"the Bradley Manning treatment".

You are the one who brought up torture.

Gee, I wonder what made your mind go there?

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Response to dawg (Reply #72)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:48 PM

75. Why even bring up "the Bradley Manning treatment" at all.

 

If you were not going there (torture).

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #75)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:54 PM

78. Because, knowing how he has been treated, I can't blame Snowden for not ...

wanting to go through that. It would be misery for him and would do nothing to help his cause. That's all.

Whether or not Manning's treatment could be characterized as torture is another debate altogether - one that I chose my words carefully in order to avoid.

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Response to dawg (Reply #78)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:58 PM

79. Thing is

 

Manning was treated like anyone else. As harsh as it sounds that is how everyone is treated when locked up.

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #79)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:01 PM

80. I suspect Mr. Manning has gotten some "special" treatment, but ...

you are right that the conditions in our prisons are terrible. But that is an issue for another day.

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #79)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:43 PM

129. Really? It's normal in this country to hold an uncharged person in solitary for months on end?

You should have added the qualifier: only since Bush**.

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #71)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:06 PM

105. I disagree ... IMO it is absolutely torture the way it's implemented in our SuperMax prisons ...

Many, many previously healthy people have been driven utterly and irrevocably insane by being held in solitary for extended periods. Longer-term, it's one of the cruelest punishments you could possibly inflict on a human being.

If you read about some of the cases of what's happened to people kept in solitary in a supermax prison for years on end ... the stories will absolutely make you weep. Esp. when it's done to someone who was in prison for something like drug possession, and did nothing more 'wrong' (to wind up in solitary) than fighting back when someone was trying to prison-rape them. And all it takes is the word of the Warden, not a Judge, to make the decision to throw inmates into that hell.

The system of solitary confinement like we have in the SuperMax prisons is 100% cruel and unusual punishment, and it IS torture when done on a longer-term basis.

The effects of this treatment have been formally studied very little as well, which means we really don't KNOW how badly it's damaging people ... but I can almost guarantee it 'rehabilitates' very few people.

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #71)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:55 PM

118. And you know this How?

You would probably last three days in solitary confinement. Maybe less.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #118)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:34 PM

127. Solitary confinement is 23 hours a day.

 

PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.

The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him in order to ensure he is okay.

Each night, during his correspondence time, he is allowed to take a 15 to 20 minute shower.



http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2010/12/typical-day-for-pfc-bradley-manning.html

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #71)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:34 AM

171. Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #66)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:54 PM

117. Totally agree with you. For Snowden to do this after

Noticing what happened to Bradley Manning puts him in hero category for me.

Sorry your remarks got slimed.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:33 PM

52. +1

 

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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:45 PM

60. When the laws are unjust, secret and violate our guaranteed

bill of rights and we have no habeas corpus and no open west to lay low until senses grow perhaps a new way must be found.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:06 PM

82. I think I will have to take Malcolm X's side on this one.

 

Certainly if a law requires me to do injustice, I should be able to break it and also avoid punishment for breaking it if I can. Fuck anyone who tries to punish me for not acting unjustly.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:52 PM

115. A smart one.

Apparently, killing him will not kill his message or prevent him from releasing his information. It may be that he is planning to let computers spread his message for him.

Before Snowden came forth, there were several whistleblowers who told us what Snowden has shown us. But Snowden is providing proof of their allegations.

How can anyone defend this program?

It seems to me that the ultimate goal in this program is not to uncover crime or terrorism but rather to assemble a database that allows the people controlling the database to use psy-ops and propaganda very effectively on the public.

Those of us who are not part of the elite that gets to run the program should be wary of becoming the pawns of the few at the top who do.

If someone wanted to stage a coup in the US, to take over the country, this massive surveillance would be the first, maybe even the next to final step. When someone has all your computer and phone data plus your credit report, your bank statements, everything, they can easily find something that embarrasses you (if you are over 25 for sure). Everyone makes mistakes. And that is how people can be blackmailed and controlled.

It is simply naive to dismiss Snowden as a criminal. He is just the tip of a big iceberg that all the attention to Snowden seeks to hide.

In his first interview with Greenwald, Snowden predicted that he might be arrested, renditioned, tortured, etc. It looks like the US very much wants to prove him right.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:26 AM

169. It doesn't matter if he is a coward or not. It is not about him. What he did raised

awareness of the surveillance state and government secrecy. Then as an outgrowth of this story we are again reminded of how our government can bully smaller countries and our lack of respect for the emerging socialist democracies of Latin America. Coward or not, it was a service to our country to get these issues out in the open.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:13 PM

6. Sorry, but you're making no sense...

Complain all you want about intelligence gathering, but you'll need to explain how dissent is being silenced (much less through "every method" considering that you're here on a public website dissenting.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:17 PM

10. Oh come now.......

You do not think that spying on, storing, and analyzing every word out of our mouths doesn't stifle dissent?

And jailing the whistleblower who brought this mangling of the Fourth Amendment into the light isn't being hunted down like an animal? Manning wasn't a warning to others to keep their mouths shut about government wrongdoing or you will be tortured?

Come now. Let us at least be honest with each other.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:21 PM

14. Authoritarians will defend unconstitutional laws until the bitter end.

 

They crave big brother watching over them. I doubt that personality can be reasoned with.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:40 PM

57. Just my opinion, but I don't think the majority of them are authoritarians

I think it's purely a Cult of Personality. They'll reverse their opinion--AGAIN-- after 2016.

ProSense (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 08:53 AM
Original message
Edited on Wed Feb-15-06 08:53 AM by ProSense

Bush is spying on Americans: opponents and activist groups. The law can't
be changed to make that legal. The Republicans are trying to pull a fast one with this "law change" tactic by framing the illegal spying as warrantless spying on terrorists; therefore, the law is being changed to give Bush the authority to spy on terrorist. Spying on Americans was, is and will still be illegal. Bush committed crimeS by illegal spying on Americans and breaking existing FISA laws.

I'm sure all criminals would love to have a law passed that retroactively absolves them of their crimes.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #57)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:54 PM

62. Oops!



(I guess she didn't know that her posts are archived)

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #57)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:08 PM

64. Blindly following a leader is an aspect of authoritarianism.

 

"Good Germans" might have been aghast if the Kaiser did what Hitler did. But Hitler was "their guy", and they obidiently followed him in to fascism.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:44 PM

99. Just the fact that you interpret things that way

proves you are the one who can't be reasoned with.

Is that what you call every government lawyer who ever defended any search and seizure or use of incriminating statement in every court in the land every day?

Or the judges who may have, on some cases, decided that the particular search or use of statement did not violate the 4th or 5th Amendment?

You seem to think all of society should agree with you on every issue.

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Response to treestar (Reply #99)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:42 PM

109. If Obama wants to defend NSA surveillence in open court, bring it on.

 

He won't, because it won't withstand scrutiny under sunlight.
Why is he so unhinged over a 29 yo HS dropout? Because what Snowden found out is a threat to Obama's presidency and the MIC gravy train.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #109)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:08 PM

177. He doesn't need to...

...the Courts already ruled on this ages ago.

Again, some nutcase with no legal training typing "It's UNCONSTITUTIONAL" on a website does not, in fact, make a law unconstitutional. This is true whether that nutcase is a teabagger, or a loopy hyper-leftist accusing everyone who disagrees with them, including President Obama, of being an Authoritarian, Brownshirt, Good-German, NAZI.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:33 PM

53. No content is stored

So, no, "they" are not "analyzing every word out of our mouths." The only thing that is stored is the metadata: the "tos" and "froms," and that with no names, just numbers.

What dissent has been stifled?

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Response to frazzled (Reply #53)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:45 PM

73. It's all stored, have you not seen the $12B facility in Utah for storage?

 

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Response to frazzled (Reply #53)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 11:59 PM

143. Pretty word, metadata

Almost makes it seem like they aren't mining every bit of data, doesn't it? Metadate = Data Mining.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:20 PM

13. Methinks you need to re-read the MLK, Jr. quote again - nt

 

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:23 PM

15. Right??

A real authoritarian administration would shut down "underground" sites, wouldn't they? Dissent is alive and well, yes?

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:41 PM

29. Much better to keep the sites up so as to allow people to vent, impotently, on the internet.

Let them whine. The secret laws are all in place (as interpreted by the secret courts), so what does it matter if "emoprogs" like me complain?

We emoprogs are useful to the government, after all. Our shrill cries of disgust provide the illusion that we are still a fully functioning democracy.

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Response to dawg (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:44 PM

59. Correct. When we expend our wrath on our keyboards, we are much less likely to do anything

 

constructive in the real world to actually remedy the situation "They" have set us in.
We even have people here whose job it is to deny the obvious so those of us that are realizing what is happening, have something to rally against right here. A closed loop, so to speak. We don't even have to go anywhere.
Few outside DU are effected or care. Most people do not even know about DU in the first place. They let us rant right here, a type of echo chamber, and that helps keep the apparent status quo as they want it.

[center][/center]

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Response to dawg (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:59 PM

103. Chomsky, as usual, is instructive:

 

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate with that spectrum.

~The Common Good

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:34 PM

26. Reporters are having a hard time communicating with anonymous sources ...

They know their call data is being logged, and that it would be a simple matter to connect them to the reporter.

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Response to dawg (Reply #26)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:57 PM

42. Two very important posts, dawg. Chilling.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:41 PM

28. You need an explanation on how dissent is being silenced? You don't know?

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #28)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:49 PM

35. They "know,"

they simply choose not to "see." Cognitive dissonance is itself a powerful deterrent.

As MLK said, "There comes a time when silence is betrayal."

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Response to chervilant (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:14 PM

88. They are probably the same ones who say that Bush kept us safe from attack.

 

How willfully blind do they have to be to not remember 9/11?

How willfully blind do they have to be to not see the organized police brutality against peaceful protesters?

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #88)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:23 PM

92. You might be interested in

Richard Hofstadter's "The Paranoid Style in American Politics." Hofstadter helped me develop a better understanding of the unfortunates who embrace and embody rigid, authoritarian, conservative mindsets. Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Pat Buchanan, John Boehner and their ilk--truly unfortunate individuals.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #92)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:31 PM

94. Thanks. I'm willing to bet at least some of those exploiting the unfortunates have read it as well.

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #94)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:05 PM

176. I think it's important to note

that the economic exploitation about which MLK spoke so eloquently has become the radical income inequity that has motivated #Occupy, as well as a growing awareness among the Hoi Polloi in general that a minuscule number of our species (ironically) considers themselves our paternal guides in all matters, economic and otherwise. Witness Bill Gates presuming that his obscene wealth has rendered him an expert on education. In short, "they" see "us" as too "slow" and "uneducated" (read "stupid" to make "the really important decisions."

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #28)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:47 PM

74. These people have not seen Occupiers get pepper sprayed and beaten?

 

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:54 PM

40. So in other words, because things are okay now, thus they ever shall be?

 

I don't see why this is put forth as a strong argument. Great changes don't happen all at once; they happen incrementally. The conservative movement is very patient, very much into the long view. For example, the assault on Roe v Wade: they knew not to attack it directly, they are following a course of chipping away at it.

Those who wish for an obedient, compliant populace will get what they want by increments, and getting people to self-censor is an important step. Surely you understand the phenomenon.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:55 PM

41. Makes no sense to those who have no sense

 

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:18 PM

11. Snowden, like MLK and others, committed acts of civil disobedience.

 

Laws were broken. People were were pursued and tried if caught.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:24 PM

17. MLK didn't run from the challenge. He faced intimidators head-on.

Snowden hides behind Wikileaks PR.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:27 PM

20. How about Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, and all the others who ran away?

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:31 PM

24. I get your point, but let us not also forget Nat Turner (who stayed and

 

led a slave insurrection) and John Brown (who did not retreat but actually attacked).

Resistance to evil can take numerous forms.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:58 PM

43. You're seriously comparing running from the active abuses of slavery

to Snowden's CHOICE to steal information and his CHOICE to avoid the KNOWN consequences of doing so?

Wow. What a slap in the face to people wanting to live free of TRUE oppression, to compare them to someone who created the situation in which he finds himself.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #43)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:26 PM

68. The slaves broke the law by stealing property and ran away.

 

Don't you think that the slaves chose to break the law and didn't know the consequences? You say that Snowden broke the law and ran away to avoid the consequences. The law in both cases is wrong and his was an act of civil disobedience.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #68)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:02 PM

81. The law Snowden broke was NOT wrong. He violated employer confidentiality.

Snowden was not a slave being beaten, raped and held against their will in a subset of the union that followed the practice.

He voluntarily took a job with INTENT to steal from it, and he did so. That is a broken law in and of itself.

This isn't even about NSA surveillance.

This is about stealing data from your employer.

This is about engaging in, then breaking, a confidentiality agreement that MANY employees sign as a condition of being employed.

And he violated it. And he's running from the consequences of breaking that agreement.

Slaves were NOT employees.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #81)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:07 PM

83. If that's all. They should fire him and hire an obedient worker bee.

 


By LAW, the slaves were property. Running away was theft of the owners property. Harriet Tubman and others helped steal property by helping slaves escape.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #83)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:33 PM

95. No that wasn't all. Snowden upped it by sharing stolen information with China and Russia.

Unlike the Northern states welcoming slaves who fled actual oppression, Snowden's voluntary theft and double-dealing to other nations has made him persona non grata in his preferred destinations.

Snowden didn't break laws that prevented his existence as a free human being. He broke laws he just didn't care to abide.

We can simply agree to disagree. Having the mere potential of data surveillance loom will never rise to the level of physical enslavement for me.

For all the sudden wailing about living in a putative 'police state', people around this forum are pretty darned free to rail at the power structure without fear of retribution.

Ask bloggers in Mexico who are literally lynched for speaking out online about drug cartels.

I could cite a number of other examples, but there are degrees of oppression and intimidation. The outrage on this board isn't driven by what has been done, but what people believe COULD be done based on one person's suggestion of the possibility.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #81)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:17 PM

90. wow. just wow.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #81)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:50 PM

135. This embarassingly moronic thread is helping folks TRULY show their ignorance as well as their asses

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 09:54 PM - Edit history (1)

THIS is what DU is now. A place where people say that Bradley Manning is being treated worse than Civil Rights activists of the 50s and 60's, many of whom got their asses beat and were KILLED by law enforcement, you know the folks who were actually supposed to be PROTECTING them, before they even got to a damn trial.

I cannot abide this level of unhinged stupidity.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #135)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:38 AM

165. And folks

In human bondage had it the exact same as Snowden. *sigh*. There they go again - taking over the black American experience when it suits the cause and narrative. Haven't they heard? It's a post racial society. Tsk tsk. He has no more in common with Harriet Tubman than I do that "great" authoritarian Bull Connor.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #165)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 06:35 PM

191. THANK YOU.

Seriously.

So you saw that thread comparing Snowden/Morales to Harriet Tubman? And people wonder why there are so few of us around here?

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Response to Number23 (Reply #191)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 07:43 PM

194. Yeppers

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #43)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:22 PM

123. You were comparing him to MLK not two posts back, for fucks sake.

 

Face it, you got bent out of shape because someone gave you an example of how sticking around for the powers that be to exterminate you is not a necessary part of defending constitutional rights.

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Response to Marr (Reply #123)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:38 PM

128. How do you figure?

Snowden is NOTHING like MLK in my view.

Where do you get that I was comparing him?

I challenge any assertion that what Snowden has done should be elevated to the actual heroism of MLK, who did not RUN from those who actively and violently oppressed basic human rights.

That you assume "extermination" is the outcome of being arrested by the U.S. is the adoption of Greenwald/Snowden paranoia. They say "He could be killed for this" and it's bizarre how so many accept that narcissistic speculation as fact.

But they sure whipped up their target audience into the intended frenzy, didn't they?

My bet? He gets arrested, faces trial and goes to jail - no heroic assassination, just jail, with no access to his toys. THAT is what I believe he fears most.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #128)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:55 PM

131. Do I really have to quote your own words to you when they're in a title right ^ there?

 

"MLK didn't run from the challenge. He faced intimidators head-on."

That is comparing Snowden to MLK. You're saying Snowden should've turned himself in to the authorities. You castigate the man for not being MLK. It's absurd.

And no, I don't think Snowden would've been physically exterminated had he done so, but he certainly would've been incarcerated and subjected to the same character assassination that's going on now. I see absolutely no reason for a whistleblower to turn themselves in for prosecution by a government that's doing the things ours does, and even less reason to give two figs about gaining the approval of people like yourself, who make excuses for the policies he helped to expose.

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Response to Marr (Reply #131)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:56 AM

175. Wouldn't that be contrasting, not comparing? N/T

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Response to Marr (Reply #131)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 07:13 PM

192. +++

He knows enough to really fear the government's retaliation....

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:51 PM

37. Hides?

Snowden is in an untenable position, having tweaked the tail of the wrong tiger. He cannot hide anywhere on this planet.

(And, please don't accuse me of painting him with a hero's brush. I think hierarchy of any ilk is delimiting and damaging.)

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Response to chervilant (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:14 PM

89. I agree that he ultimately cannot hide, but he's doing his best.

What does one reasonably expect when they run off with classified U.S. information and share it with the likes of China and Russia?

What's bizarre about what's happening on this forum is that people are acting as if this is the first time they've ever heard the idea that someone could go to jail for doing that.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #89)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:36 PM

96. hmm... "people are acting as if..."

I get uncomfortable when I read something that purports to identify a specific 'group' of people, then assigns the entire group a specific characteristic, or accuses the entire group of certain behaviors. I am concerned that such a stance is a form of bigotry that we don't need on this forum, or with each other.

I can appreciate that you are frustrated with the idea that Mr. Snowden is seeking to avoid the consequences of his actions, merited or not. On the other hand, I can appreciate those among us who are grateful that his actions have revealed the remarkable extent of the NSA's collection of meta-data on our citizenry and the citizenry of other nations.

Mostly, I am increasingly hopeful that our forum exemplifies the growing number of informed, involved citizens--those of us whose raison d'ętre is the recovery of our democracy, our economy, and our environment. Dare I say, our entire species? I remain hopeful that we can be the change we want to see in this world.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #96)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:54 PM

130. Just make that "some people"

I'd suggest that a bigger problem on the boards is the increasingly polarized "us" vs. "them" tone in a number of threads.

That phenomenon undermines the idea of this site as an exemplar of reasonable discussion. It seems to be heading in the opposite direction.

Hopefully, people are becoming more informed and involved at large - but that is less in evidence here based on the type of labels being casually and frequently applied when one disagree's with another poster's views.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #130)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 10:39 PM

141. Are you familiar with Calhoun's work on overpopulation?

Our species is beginning to evince some of the classic behaviors he predicted.

I join you in your concern about the increased polarization on DU and in general. I am experiencing more and more divisive and derisive interactions online and in person.

And, let's not EVEN mention road rage!

I do hope our children and our children's children can fix the mess we've made...

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:33 PM

51. +1

 

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:43 PM

58. So in your opinion

Snowden should have turned himself in an been tortured like Bradley Manning?

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #58)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:30 PM

69. He should have lawyered up and turned himself in.

Your assumption that his situation would parallel Manning's is nothing but speculation.

Should all people who break the law simply evade prison for fear of how they speculate they'll be treated?

If I hit your friend with a car, do you agree that I should run and evade the penalty for doing so?

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #69)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 11:14 AM

200. There's one huge difference

If you hit my friend with a car, the US Government is unlikely to arrest you and torture you with 23 hour a day naked solitary confinement for a year.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:52 PM

116. Back in the day, American dissidents were not put into solitary confinement,

And there was absolutely NO Possibility of being renditioned or crucified. (My expression for "stress positions.)

And very important bonus situation: We still had a free press - witness how over 27 news organizations stepped forward to disseminate the Pentagon Papers. Yes, that's right, twenty seven major newspapers, from the New York Times to the Miami Herald to the LA Times.

Right now you'd be lucky to get one newspaper to consider it.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #17)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:03 AM

144. And while one may be metaphoric (for now)

Both lost their lives.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:18 PM

91. obedience is not the same as moral.

some here have a problem with that distinction.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #11)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 05:44 AM

159. Snowden is like MLK? I thought he was supposed to be like Paul Revere...

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:23 PM

16. You can lead horses to water . . . For the life of me, the

 

DUers calling Snowden a 'coward' or a 'traitor' most need to read just this one snippet:

and I say that those who are seeking to make it appear that anyone who opposes ... is a fool or a traitor or an enemy... is a person that has taken a stand against the best in our tradition.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:29 PM

22. And always the same disgraced horses too n/t

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:25 PM

18. There's a Democrat in the White House. WTH is the matter with you?

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Response to TransitJohn (Reply #18)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:50 PM

112. I ran out of koolaid in June 2008 lol n/t

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:25 PM

19. Not every method yet.

 

Drones are still in the bullpen.

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Response to The Link (Reply #19)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:47 PM

32. Yeah but give em time :( n/t

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:33 PM

25. Excellent post, Catherina. MLK made so many profound, relevant, timeless statements.

I would have loved to see him elected US President; I believe that if this had happened, our country would be on so much more of an evolved, progressive, and ethical course than the disgusting, corrupt, regressive mess that we are currently suffering from.

Thanks for posting this.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #25)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:47 PM

31. This speech resonates so strongly right now

It makes me sad to imagine where our nation would be if Martin Luther King, or a man anything like him, had ever been elected President. Cuba would be a friend of the US, Latin America would be thriving, Americans would be employed and educated. Is it any wonder they gunned him down the minute he started speaking against the MIC?

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Response to Catherina (Reply #31)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:45 PM

61. It is the standard MO of the MIC to use deceit, aggression, and violence against those most

capable of exposing and subjugating them with non-violence.

I hope some day that people of this planet stop paying attention to the whatevers, recognize the MIC for what it is, and rise up in unified non-violent direct actions that will permanently quarantine and neutralize the MIC. I see no other possible way to eliminate the deadly MIC cancer from our world.

This, from my POV, is our only hope for eliminating this insane system that is based in violence, destruction, waste, exploitation and profit, and creating evolving progressive systems that exist solely to promote the well-being, liberty, and happiness of the vast majority of human beings on the planet.

But we have to overcome the propaganda spread by the MIC, and their whatevers first. It is their mission to create confusion in order to prevent a large enough body of individuals from uniting as a force large enough to non-violently overcome the power of the MIC.



Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith
And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
Rode a tank,
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
Cause I'm in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game


"Sympathy for the Devil"
Rolling Stones

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Response to Zorra (Reply #61)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:10 PM

86. I see no other hope either

I am patiently waiting for .... change

Solo le pido a Dios (don't watch if you're down)

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:48 PM

33. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

 


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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:49 PM

34. K&R

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 01:53 PM

39. DU seems still to be up and running.

 

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #39)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:02 PM

44. So we can all relax! This is proof that democracy is permanent!

 

No need to worry about what could threaten democracy in this country. It is, somehow, indestructible! It is impervious to any assault made upon it and will live forever without change!
Because why? American exceptionalism?

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Response to Demit (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:21 PM

47. The OP didn't say the dissent was at risk in the future...

...it say that every means was being used to stifle it today. Hardly a fair assessment.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #47)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:25 PM

107. I was responding to the post that says DU is still running.

 

As if that is proof of something.

And if you are referencing the OP to prove to me that MLK was talking about the present only, note that he used the verb form "will." Will seek. "It's a dark day in our nation when high-level authorities will seek to use every method..." My reading of that is that it of course includes the future.

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #39)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:23 PM

48. Psst! I hear rumors of a secret Cable News channel that criticizes the Administration constantly!

...but to protect their underground identity, I can't reveal it's name.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:25 PM

49. .



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Response to brooklynite (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:49 PM

76. Right? A true 'authoritarian' administration would have ground that upstart out of existence.

Yet here they still are.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:47 PM

100. Here here!

I heard this guy Glenn Beck was arrested! Secretly spirited away to Gitmo! Have you seen him lately? Then there's this guy Hannity. He disappeared last week. Sarah Palin is long gone - they made her quit her governor's job! Now she's in Gitmo putting on her lipstick and fighting over space with Ann Coulter.



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Response to dbackjon (Reply #39)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:34 PM

54. +1

 

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #39)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:21 AM

152. OP is same person who cheered crackdowns in other countries.

Particularly Libya and Venezuela.

They don't care about dissent too terribly. Just want to get some easy adulation.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:38 PM

56. K&R

 

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:22 PM

67. Kicked and Recommended! nt

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:53 PM

77. Dissent is alive and well. So is quoting Dr. King when trying to make a piss poor argument valid.

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Response to great white snark (Reply #77)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 09:16 PM

138. + a million. The only saving grace for this POS OP is that it's not sitting on 300 recs

Which is totally surprising given how "deep" and "profound" the level of discourse is around here and the "quality" of the joint's most prolific posters.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:42 PM

98. k and r

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:53 PM

101. the "smoooth patriotism" is thick in the air...

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Thanks for taking the time to post this, sabrina .....i mean Catherina

Cheers,
Agony

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Response to Agony (Reply #101)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:51 PM

113. Sabrina!

Thank you. It's an absolute honor to be confused with Sabrina. I mean that sincerely

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Response to Catherina (Reply #113)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:56 PM

119. oops, SORRY...



but, yeah.... equally awesome

thanks for being here, btw

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Response to Agony (Reply #119)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:20 AM

148. You can

You can confuse me for Sabrina anytime lol

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:36 PM

108. Here's a good example of a "method to silence dissent"

(Washington, DC) – The Communications Law that the Ecuadorian National Assembly approved on June 14, 2013, seriously undermines free speech. The law includes overly broad language that will limit the free expression of journalists and media outlets.

The government had proposed a Communications Law in 2009 but it faced opposition in the National Assembly. The new National Assembly that formed in May with a majority of members from President Rafael Correa's political party approved a modified version of the original bill.

“This law is yet another effort by President Correa to go after the independent media,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director. “The provisions for censorship and criminal prosecutions of journalists are clear attempts to silence criticism.”

The law, which applies to both broadcast and print media, includes the following problematic provisions:

- more -

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/17/ecuador-end-assault-free-speech

The hyperbole is getting thick.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023163029

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:01 PM

122. Well, it looks like a dark day....

K&R

... when riot police in dark suits start riots at peaceful protests all over the world. When mass surveillance without reason or permission is perpetrated from private contractor buildings with darkened windows all over this land, surveying the communications of peoples of our land and the peoples and governments of other nations of the world. Indeed it looks like the darkest time our country has seen since the day we declared our independence 237 years ago yesterday, rivaled only by the era of the Civil War and it's aftermath.

BUT, just as dark falls every night, the morning will come. The world will not let stand this EVIL which has darkened the world since the dawn of the 21st Century. This EVIL was indeed born many decades ago but was brought to adulthood when the Supreme Court of the United States interfered with the 2000 general election.

Morning will come again, though we know not how. GOOD will win out, NOT EVIL.

"Doing good means going into the darkness and shining a light." ~~ Unknown

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:33 PM

126. What this OP needs ... is more bold font.

Otherwise its hard to take it seriously.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #126)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 09:11 PM

136. It would be hard for any moderately intelligent person with a second grade understanding of

American history to take this OP seriously.

Apparently being in jail or fleeing to Hong Kong to avoid going to jail is comparable to this









and

I am honestly not sure how much more of the ignorance, hyperbole and stupidity here I can take.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #136)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:50 AM

154. Excellent!

 

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #154)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 03:32 AM

157. Don't know why you'd care either way. Won't do anything for that transparency page

or the large number of posters ignoring you.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #136)

Tue Jul 9, 2013, 07:00 PM

208. Well done Madame

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:31 PM

133. K&R

 

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 10:27 PM

140. K&R

 

“Since mankind's dawn, a handful of oppressors have accepted the responsibility over our lives that we should have accepted for ourselves. By doing so, they took our power. By doing nothing, we gave it away. We've seen where their way leads, through camps and wars, towards the slaughterhouse.” ~ Alan Moore, V for Vendetta



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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:15 AM

146. Actually,

the second quotation is from JFK.

http://www.bartleby.com/73/1211.html

And he borrowed/modified it from Dante.

But I think King wouldn't mind the misattribution.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:09 AM

151. .

 

.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 06:27 AM

160. Thank you, Catherina. Appreciate your investment here so much. n/t

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 08:49 AM

164. Metadata does not belong to you.

I'm dissenting and no one is stopping me.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:10 PM

178. He is a traitor.

He deserves to be brought back and tried for his crimes against his country. A real egotist, who is feeding off all those who encourage his actions against his country. If he does find a home outside of America, I hope he has a miserable life.

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Response to wisteria (Reply #178)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 03:27 PM

189. No can do. Dr. King was assassinated by a RW authoritarian in 1968.

"When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism & economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered.... don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world "
- Martin Luther King

I suppose authoritarians would call someone who says things like this a traitor and an "egoist".

But that's what authoritarians do.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:23 PM

182. And, just like MLK, it is likely that Snowden will also be assassinated.

Those that threaten the balance of power are likely to suffer the consequences. Dissent is only tolerated as long as it does not threaten to usurp the "system."

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Response to NoodleyAppendage (Reply #182)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:01 PM

187. I hope not. But he sure is hated by the same selfish people, same hypocrites. n/t

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 05:49 PM

190. Great post

K&R

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 07:14 PM

193. K&R

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:59 PM

197. Keep going!

 

Makes me think of Nelson Mandela and his struggle to go from prisoner to president. From pawn to powerhouse.

The man I most respect.

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Response to Rex (Reply #197)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:10 AM

198. What a great parallel Rex

I've listened to this speech at least a dozen times this week, and each time it sends more chills. And Nelson Mandela, thank you for all you've done, may your passage be as peaceful as possible.

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Response to Catherina (Reply #198)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:14 AM

199. A true leader of men and women.

 

I should add RIP MLK

We had some wonderful contemporary champions, I am proud of them all and that courage will be felt by all that read about them and others like them. They are world changers.

Not like the parasites that start wars for profit, but I won't start...

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 06:52 PM

204. K&R

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Tue Jul 9, 2013, 12:02 PM

206. Wouldn't FOX News be shut down if dissent was being silenced?

And comparing what is happening with those leakers with MLK, a man who fought for equality...this thread is just pure, unadulterated libertarian bullshit. I'm disgusted to come across this trash about the President on a supposedly-Democratic website.

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #206)

Tue Jul 9, 2013, 07:05 PM

211. Good point

Yet Bill-O still waxes stupid every chance he gets.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Tue Jul 9, 2013, 12:11 PM

207. K & R!

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Tue Jul 9, 2013, 07:03 PM

209. Anyone who believes that this is what is going on with Snowden is seriously deluded.

 

As in Teabagger level deluded.

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Response to Catherina (Original post)

Tue Jul 9, 2013, 07:04 PM

210. k/r

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