Trying to figure out the significance of the distance of the gun muzzle (Zimmerman trial)

[Duer 157099]

I know that part of the issue goes to the relative positions of their bodies, that is, that the evidence of TM's two sweatshirts having the powder marks that they do would indicate that he was leaning over towards the ground, with the Arizona drink in his front hoodie pocket causing his sweatshirt to fall away from his body.

But, if there was no contact between the gun and his shirt, does that not argue that Zimmerman didn't even try to push him off using the gun?

The law says that you have to have exhausted any non-lethal method of defending yourself before you can resort to deadly force.

If TM is on top of GZ and GZ pulls his gun out and wants to get TM off of him, why not stick the gun in his chest and say "Get OFF of me NOW!"

But no, the gun doesn't even touch Martin's shirt. Probably because it was so close to GZ's face that when he fired it, it kicked him in the nose.

[madashelltoo]

1. My opinion from the beginning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023119710

This medical examiner has debunked the "raining punches" story and the "slamming head". No blood or bruises on Trayvon's hands.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023166539

[rdharma]

2. They should know EXACTLY the distance between the muzzle and Trayvon.

They have the gun and ammunition used available for ballistic testing.

I read the autopsy results...... and the first thing that struck me as odd...... was that it wasn't a "contact or close" shot that you would expect if Zimmerman was telling the truth about Trayvon being right on top of him.

If somebody can post a link to that autopsy, it would be quite pertinent to this thread.

[Soundman]

3. The prosecution stated in their opening

Argument that Zimmerman pressed the gun to Travons chest and pulled the trigger, their own witness testified to the opposite. This seems to be a pattern in this case. The states witnesses for the most part have undermined their own case. If I didn't know any better, I would think they are throwing the case.

[rdharma]

4. If the prosecution said exactly that,......

....... then they screwed up! The autopsy showed it wasn't a "contact shot".

I haven't been following the trial...... so I'll take your word for it.

[dkf]

5. From prosecutor's opening statement:

JOHN GUY: Those were the words in that defendant's head just moments before he pressed that pistol into Trayvon Martin's chest and pulled the trigger.

http://www.npr.org/2013/06/25/195422108/prosecutors-begin-their-case-against-trayvon-martins-killer

[Lurks Often]

6. You're speculating in an absence of evidence

Your first paragraph is correct.

You don't try to push someone off with the gun, especially with a semi-automatic pistol. Doing so could cause the slide to move back "out of battery" which would prevent it from firing.

Presuming for the sake of this discussion that Zimmerman was having his head struck against the pavement, he was entirely within his right to fire the handgun.

"If TM is on top of GZ and GZ pulls his gun out and wants to get TM off of him, why not stick the gun in his chest and say 'Get OFF of me NOW!'" It is a very rare person indeed who can maintain their composure when having their head struck against the pavement, in the dark, on a rainy night. In such a situation you are reacting, not thinking. If you've ever been in a major car accident you'll have an idea of what I mean. You don't think "I have to pump the brakes while turning the steering wheel to the left" What happens is that you go "Oh Shit" and you react without thinking.

I strongly doubt the gun caused the nose injury. I own a similar handgun and I find very improbable that it would recoil with enough force to cause that injury. I will remind you that no one has testified to that theory in court and if the prosecution felt the theory had any merit I'm sure they would have brought it up.

[Mojo Electro]

7. It would seem

that if the gun hit Zim's face with enough force to injure his nose like that, it would have left a telltale imprint. Plus, if the shot entered Trayvon's chest, it stands to reason that the gun was likely not near Zim's face, but lower.

[Lurks Often]

9. Concur. A far more probable scenario

is that Zimmerman pulled the gun out of the holster and fired it as soon as it was pointed at Martin

[rdharma]

8. I unchecked rec of OP

Because I missed the speculation on Zimmerman's gun 'kicking him in the nose' in the OP.

Not likely.