Member Of High School Choir Quits Over Islamic Song Selection

[Johnny Rico]

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/02/15/member-of-high-school-choir-complains-about-islamic-song-choice/

A school district in Grand Junction is standing up for a high school music teacher after a student complained about a song being sung in the men’s choir club. The song is called Zikr and it is composed in the style of Islamic prayer chants.

“I think there would be a lot of outrage if we made a Muslim choir sing Jesus is the only truth,” said Grand Junction High School senior James Harper. “In the Bible you don’t worship another God. This is another God, even another prophet.” Harper, a Christian who was in the choir up until recently, said that once he looked over the translation of the song he felt uncomfortable singing it.

“I don’t want to seem like a racist or a bigot or anything I’m just really rather uncomfortable any religion singing to any other god makes me uncomfortable. It’s not just exclusive to the Muslims,” Harper told CBS4 partner KREX-TV. “I really don’t feel it is appropriate for students in a public high school to be singing an Islamic worship song.”

(more at link)

[zipplewrath]

1. But he'd have no problem with the Hallelujah chorus

The kingdom of this world
Is become the kingdom of our Lord,
And of His Christ, and of His Christ;
And He shall reign for ever and ever,
For ever and ever, forever and ever,
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah!

[Johnny Rico]

16. In junior high (public, mind you) we sang this gem:

An entire song whose lyrics consisted of one verse repeated over and over, Psalm 14:1.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

As young as I was at the time, I remember feeling distinctly uncomfortable.

[gkhouston]

51. I have a problem with singing the Hallelujah chorus.

I utterly despise it. It's my least favorite chorus in all of the Messiah, a work I don't like in general. Then again, the extent of my knowledge about the Baroque period is that it is thankfully over.

[Johnny Rico]

57. That's a rather strong reaction. Why do you utterly despise it?

We all have our individual tastes and biases, of course...I can't stand rap "music" in general, myself.

[gkhouston]

64. For starters, I'm not a fan of baroque music in general.

This particular chorus is done to death and is just a park-and-bark with a tune I consider unimaginative. There are some choruses I like, such as "All We Like Sheep" and "Let Us Break Their Bonds Asunder" where the music is somewhat playful.

[Johnny Rico]

65. Fair enough. It certainly is done to death, I'll give you that.

It's funny how many people, upon being presented with the entire Messiah, say "You mean there's more to it than the Chorus?"

[gkhouston]

66. I've done all three parts, no cuts, more than once.

Talk about a butt-numbing experience.

[Johnny Rico]

68. I did the same back in the '80s when I was in the Colorado Symphony Chorus.

We stood for the whole thing, as I recall...

[gkhouston]

69. Oh geez, that must have been awful.

Some of the repeats on those solos are tedious enough even when you're seated.

[Johnny Rico]

73. Note that I don't participate any more!

It was kinda fun and all, but with the rehearsals it just took up too much of my free time.

[sakabatou]

78. But it can be funny

[HarveyDarkey]

80. My favorite version

[xchrom]

2. the stupid -- it burns -- allah is not 'another god'.

the bible, the torah and the koran are all talking about the same god.

how can you be in high school and not know that?

[denverbill]

5. You obviously don't talk to many right wing Christians.

It's funny because they insist there is only one God, but then insist Muslims worship a false god. Seems pretty obvious to me that if there is only one God and both religions claim to be worshipping God they are talking about the same God. Maybe Muslims worship him wrong but seeing the God they are both worshipping is the God of the Jewish patriarch Abraham it's pretty much a lock.

[Johnny Rico]

8. As I understand it, the more fundamentalist Christians believe that Allah is a demon.

Their line of reasoning is that Muhammad was demonically possessed, and that the demon in question pretends to be the God of Abraham...thus, they are not the same entity.

From their point of view, this applies to virtually every other religion on the planet as well (theirs being the exception, of course).

[lunasun]

15. Thanks Ok then

that explains some of the stupid

[Fawke Em]

7. Most of these idiots believe Allah is a "Moon God," whatever that means.

They get it from Pat Robertson. I heard him mention it once and changed the channel before he got to the reasoning because stupid hurts my brain.

[white_wolf]

62. Oh, that reasoning will hurt your brain, so fair warning, but here it is.

They reason that because the Ottoman Empire used the Crescent Moon as a symbol, Allah is a the god of the Moon. They further argue that because one of the "daughters of Allah" in pre-Islamic Arabia was a goddess of the Moon, Allah is a moon god. However, let's say what the Quran says about these "daughters of Allah"

"Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza
And Manat, the third, the other?
Are yours the males and His the females?
That indeed were an unfair division!
They are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers, for which Allah hath revealed no warrant. They follow but a guess and that which (they) themselves desire. And now the guidance from their Lord hath come unto them."

[snagglepuss]

67. All religions "follow but a guess and that which (they) themselves desire".

It unfortunate that Mohammed could not see that that statement applied to Islam as well. The world would be a better place if all religions had the humility to understand that they are but a guess. The element of doubt not only prevents arrogance but also deepens faith.

[white_wolf]

70. I agree, but I posted that to refute the Allah is a moon god argument.

[hamsterjill]

34. My sentiments, exactly.

Doesn't matter what name is assigned. It's still the same deity.

[snagglepuss]

38. Only Muslims contend they worship the same god. According to all Christians

God is a trinity, an idea that is absolutely anathema to Muslims as is the concept that Jesus is god incarnate.

[xchrom]

43. 3 in 1. 1 god - the same god in the Torah.

The same in the Koran.

Christians contend the messiah - but all three profess the god of Abraham.

[snagglepuss]

53. Please cite sources showing Jews and Muslims believe their respective

god is a trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit and that Allah and Yahweh became man.

[xchrom]

56. i wasn't talking about them was i? -- christians do not believe in 3 separate entities.

all 3 express 1 entity. that enitity is the god of abraham.
that is the trinitarian expression. 3 in 1.


you don't think christian believe in a different god than the god of abraham do you?


*** i was refering to the christian view of the trinity.
not how jews or muslims view the trinity.

that being said -- we are all children 1st of the torah -- then the bible then the koran.
all the same god -- not a different god.

[snagglepuss]

58. They do worship different gods.

Christians do claim it's the same the same OT god but just saying something doesn't make it so. The three groups are monotheists but they don't worship the same god. If it was the same god why don't the three groups have the same dietary requirements? Why would the same same god punish Muslims and Jews for eating pork chops but give Christians a green light?

[xchrom]

60. Dietary differences? Oy. Nt

[snagglepuss]

61. The dietary differences are merely the tip of the iceberg. I mention one dietary

law because dietary laws are not inconsequential. For Muslims and Jews, the prohibition against consuming pork is not debatable. Given the significance placed of dietary prohibitions in Judaism and Islam, the question of why Christians don't have them is not moot. If they all have the same god why don't they have the same laws?

[Johnny Rico]

63. The reason they're not the same God (I agree with you fully) is that

different people with different agendas wrote the holy books of each religion. Thus, the characteristics of each "God" is different from the others.

[KamaAina]

71. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.

Arabic-speaking Christians and, yes, Jews use it, too.

[xchrom]

74. Indeed, thank you. Nt

[snagglepuss]

77. PR that doesn't bear out in the real world. Indonesia, the world's

most populace Muslim country has made it illegal for Indonesian Christians to refer to god as Allah. But beside that irrefutable fact the overwhelming reality is each group worships a different god, evidenced by the fact that each group have different laws and different conceptions of god. The Christian belief that God became human and that his Son sits on his right hand is absolutely unacceptable to Muslims and Jews.

[KamaAina]

79. Indonesia is not an Arabic-speaking country

its official language is Bahasa Indonesia, a Malay tongue.

It's also one of the more liberal Muslim nations. That move -- if it actually happened -- is quite surprising.

[snagglepuss]

81. All Muslims refer to Allah as Allah.

[Igel]

76. It's easy enough.

One God says that Jesus is his son and that he was executed. What he said, however, was the final word on what God had to say.

The other has no son. Instead he had a follower who apparently died a natural death. A follower who had an knowledge of what was important inferior to what a later follower had.

Apart from an overlap in names, and a self-serving claim that they're the same, it's a tough call to actually say they're the same in any meaningful sense. "Self-serving" because Muslims find it a nice opening to justify oppression and make conversion easier; and because Xians find it easier to live with or avoid oppression and also make conversion easier.

Or we have to conclude that both Xians and Muslims have no idea what they actually believe. (I've heard that a lot. One of the more seriously ridiculous non sequiturs except in seriously warped circumstances. Most people don't have a systematic theology worked out, they have internal contradictions in their belief systems, but they tend to not actually believe things that they've never heard of or understood.)

For example: Let's assume that you know a guy named Philip. I happen to know a Philip. They both come from the same state. Gee, they must be the same guy. It's a simplistic default hypothesis, but abductive logic isn't noted for obligatory complexity.

So I talk about my Philip. You listen and say that they're the same Philip. Others overhear and say that they're the same, and I'm not about to say you're wrong because, well, I want something from you. Prestige, perhaps. Or maybe I want a contract.

Still, the Philip I claim to know is a father. He's Jewish. Yours says he's always been incapable of having children and the idea is utterly offensive. He also finds the idea of Jews loathsome.

Is it silly to say that only a fool would conclude that they're obviously the same person? I don't think so. Then what do we say about people who say only a fool would conclude they're *not* the same person?

Then again, I tend to think that "my" Jesus and the "typical Xian's" Jesus are different chaps. Mine worried about both mercy and righteousness and wants us to keep the Sabbath and the general laws he gave on Mt. Sinai. The typical Xian's Jesus pretty much thinks the giver of the laws (viz. "my" Jesus) is evil and that the Sabbath is "their" day for fun--on this latter point they all agree. But then they split between those who worry about righteousness (in some sense) and love. Another one of those "this single person has a lot of mutually exclusive traits" situations. It's risible to even try to say they're actually the same bloke, yet that's the constant claim. Since it's risible I, well, "ris."

[snooper2]

3. WHY is this a story? HUH, why!

Would it have been 20 years ago? Hell no..


YO CBS Denver, I could give a shit less what some high school kid does! Isn't there some local government fraud you should be uncovering or maybe nepotism or shady building contractors?

Huh?

How about this, if a highschooler goes out and starts killing a bunch of motherfuckers you can write a story on that. Otherwise, run it by me first, K? K.

[Denver Donkeys]

45. I want stories after stories right now

condemning Douglas Bruce's sentence.

180 days in jail (not prison), then 6 years of probation for tax evasion.

Any other person would be serving 8-15 years in prison.

He got off easy.

His probation should be revoked the minute he breathes air.

And re-sentenced to life in prison, specifically 23 hour lockup in a single cell, with 30 minutes of exercise and 5 minutes of showers once a week.

[denverbill]

4. Well, this should be the lead story on every right wing blabbermouth's show.

Oh, my God! Liberal union thugs are forcing Islam on children! I can hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth as I type this.

[earthside]

6. I'm with the kid.

Not exactly for his reasons.

Keep religion out of the public schools.

I've seen this kind of stuff before, especially at Christmas. In my kids' elementary school they sang Hannukah songs, Eid songs, Kwanza songs ... but heaven forbid they sing 'Away in a Manger' or any Christian song; it seems diversity only goes so far.

Now, I'm a non-believer and I believe in cultural diversity, but it does seem that whenever the schools try and bring religion into the diversity picture ... it gets all messed-up.

I've Googled the translation of this song and it is religious -- I'm just against any religion in our public schools; I think in the end that is the best policy that respects everyone's rights.

[Johnny Rico]

11. I remember singing a *lot* of Christian songs in my high school choir.

This was in the late '70s, mind you. I once asked the choir director why we were singing so many religious songs, and he pointed out 2 things:

1) Classical Western music has an enormous legacy of religious songs, and to ignore that would be silly. Perfectly valid point.

2) Almost everyone in the class was (as far as he knew) a Christian, so what's the big deal? Being agnostic at the time, I was less than thrilled with that point.

[dmallind]

14. I am too - assuming this is actually religious.

"In the style of" in the OP is unclear. The musical style? Could be quite a fun change to usual western phrasing. In the religious style? Big difference. Public schools shouldn't be calling folks to pray for any gods, no matter what distinctions may or may not be true.

Assuming your googling has a good translation the kid is, in this case, right. He could be lying through his teeth about his reasons, and is more than likely a woeful hypocrite even if not, who would be overjoyed singing to his own amalgam of desert henotheistics in school, but he's right not to want to sing to this one.

[lunasun]

18. Unfortuantely round the world , religion is often interwoven with the cultural art

and music. Just like you know a Christmas song even though you dont care about the words. I think it would deprive children of diversity but it must be equal and since Christmas is in your face 24/7 around the end of the year and those school concerts used to be all Christmas songs they mix it up

[jberryhill]

22. A lot of culturally and musically significant choral works have religious lyrics

Choral music education cannot simply avoid Bach, Handel, and a lot of important choral works.

What kids sing in elementary school is one thing, and that's certainly up for grabs.

But you cannot provide choral music instruction and avoid religious works.

[RZM]

31. That's wrong and here's why

If the kid were Muslim and the song Christian, then you would need to support the kid. Because Christianity is bad and we can't have it in schools.

But you see, the kid is Christian and the song Muslim. Therefore, you must call the kid stupid and ridicule him.



I'm actually not on the kid's side at all here. I do think it's a little lame that the kid is refusing to sing the song. He probably is coming from a place of religious bigotry. But I can't help point out that we'd probably see a different reaction if the tables were turned. Right now Freepers are probably cheering this kid and he's getting mostly boos at DU. Were the situation reversed, Freepers would be condemning the kid and DU probably wouldn't. I say the kid probably needs to lighten up in both scenarios.

[Enrique]

36. you're not with the kid

the kid thought the choir should remain a Christian-only choir, which doesn't resemble your attitude at all.

[Denver Donkeys]

46. I'm Jewish and I'm forced to sing those Christian songs

during the winter holidays when I was growing up in a mix of private and public school, and my last 3 was in a public school.

So the fundy kid needs to be expelled, and go get homeschooled.

He won't get into any college except for the unaccredited ones like Bob Jones U.

[RZM]

54. Hold on a sec

You want him to be expelled for refusing to sing a song and dropping out of the choir?



Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[gkhouston]

48. I'm not. A lot of music, especially the classical rep, is religious.

I've sung countless pieces set to texts that are Catholic in origin. I've sung some Hebrew works, too. I'm not a Jew nor a Catholic, nor did I feel I had to be one to sing the music at all, much less convincingly, any more than I had to be bereaved to sing secular music about death and loss.

[yodermon]

9. dog bites man n/t

[magical thyme]

10. if you're not enough of a musician to respect the beauty of other styles, genres, or cultures

you don't belong in any choir. I don't care how good this kid's voice may or may not be, or his sight reading, or anything else he brings to the table. He's not indispensable and he is totally replaceable.

Being in a chorus is about making music. The music comes first. Most choral music came from one religion or another, so even the most secular chorus ends up singing about god. Open your mind, little one, and worship the music. Or don't let the door hit your back end while you leave.

[NoGOPZone]

12. What's he implying with the "Muslim choir" hypothetical?

That the choir he's in now is a Christian choir?

[marmar]

13. “I don’t want to seem like a racist or a bigot or anything"

Too late.

[Bluerthanblue]

23. yeah-

if he doesn't want to seem like one, he should quit being one.

[yellowcanine]

26. To be fair, he is young and probably only mimicking what his parents and church have taught him.

He probably isn't a bigot yet but may be on his way to being one.

[Bluerthanblue]

33. until he makes the choice to

act differently- he IS a bigot.

He chose- on his own, to act on bigotry. His parents didn't pull him out of the choir- he chose to quit and to make it a big issue. No matter how we are raised, the choices we make, are OUR choices. He's made a poor one and if the result is that he feels uncomfortable with what his choice may say about him as a person, then GOOD. Maybe that discomfort 'being seen as a bigot' will cause him to really do some soul searching. I hope it does.

[Blue_Tires]

29. +1

[Odin2005]

35. When sone says that, they out themselves as a bigot.

It's similar to "I have black friends".

[arbusto_baboso]

17. Uh, NO, it's the SAME God.

What the hell is wrong with these idiot Christians????

[Johnny Rico]

19. To be fair...

It's not necessarily the same God. Here are three possibilities:

1) It's the same God who reveals Himself in different ways.

2) Their God (the Christian one) is, in fact, the True God, and the others are demonic imposters. Alternate versions of this one is that Allah is the only True God, etc.

3) It's a bunch of made-up nonsense, in which case they are different fictional Gods.

[arbusto_baboso]

21. How could they possibly be different Gods?

They have many of the same prophets and even have identical passages in their holy books?

Nonsense or not, both faiths worship the same God, PERIOD.

[Johnny Rico]

27. The theory is that a demonically-possesed Muhammad twisted the Torah and the Bible.

Keeping some of it the same while changing it enough to lead people into damnation.

[snagglepuss]

39. Only Muslims contend they worship the same god. According to all Christians

God is a trinity, an idea that is absolutely anathema to Muslims as is the concept that Jesus is god incarnate.

[arbusto_baboso]

44. The "People of the Book" (Jews, Christians and Muslims)...

All worship "The God of Abraham".

It's only an ignorant few in those three religions who insist otherwise.

You might not want to align yourself with those ignorant few.

Some muslims might also insist that a trinitarian view makes christians polytheists, which any thinking person knows is ludicrous.

[snooper2]

47. It's only an ignorant few in those three religions who insist otherwise.

[snagglepuss]

50. Christians and Musliims appropriated facets of an older monotheistic religion but

the god each worships is as different as night from day. Islam being a proselytizing religion and the the last on the scene of course claims that it worships the same god because that is one way to attract adherents and it is also a way to legitimatize a new religion. However you can't square a circle. Christians believe God became Man and that Christ is part of the Godhead. It is irrational to say that there is any similarity between Allah and the Christan godhead.

[Bigmack]

20. ".... in the style of Islamic prayer chants." ....

If it's only a style of chant, what's the big fucking deal?

[Johnny Rico]

25. Here are the lyrics:

It's a bit more than "in the style" of an Islamic chant!

Those who are addicted to problems in heart, the Essence of Allah calls you!
There is no implementation superior to zikr, is the decree of the Prophet of Allah!
Those who do zikr of Allah from the the heart are indeed freed!
The ego of the soul gets chopped off by doing zikr, zikr undoubtedly is Allah's sword
Zikr is peace. Zikr is Victory. Zikr is Healing. Zikr is the Cure
Allah is the only One who is eternal and immortal and rest are perishable and will be destroyed by Allah
Light of Mohammad, may peace be upon him, there is no other god except Allah

[OriginalGeek]

41. WTF is "zikr"

and can I use it in Words With Friends?


ETA: http://www.zikr.co.uk/content/view/19/66/
oh, I doubt it but I will try if I get a z and a k....

[Bigmack]

52. OK then... I vote that should not be in public schools....

.. Mumbo-Jumbo is just that... whether Christian or Muslim or Wiccan.

[yellowcanine]

24. I know a student who is Jewish who sang gospel songs in a public school choir.

I don't see this as being any different. High school choirs sing Christian songs, Jewish songs, secular songs. It is part of learning to sing different kinds of music just as in literature class Greek and Roman myths are read and discussed. This student needs to get over himself.

As for “I think there would be a lot of outrage if we made a Muslim choir sing Jesus is the only truth,” - that misses the point that it is a school choir, not a Christian choir. In a school choir one sings different kinds of music.

[razorman]

28. I don't fault the student for this. He has a right to sing or not sing for any reason he chooses.

My opinion of his reasons is irrelevant, as long as there is no violence and he is not interfering with the rights of anyone else.

[sarcasmo]

30. The religious stupidity never ends.

[tanglefoot]

32. How is this news?

My son refused to sing a song prejudicial to Native Americans. Others in his class refused to sing overly religious music of any kind. They didn't make news.

Is the Liberty Counsel putting this shite out as news?

[xfundy]

37. It's the little dip's 15 minutes.

He'll be all over the z-list xian shows. Then, he'll decide whether to keep whining. Lots of money in whining, if yer doin' it fer Jeebus.

[jwirr]

40. Stupid. On the other hand my 5 year old granddaughter took part in a dance program that included

what would have been called a German "military" march that I just had to laugh at. Some of the boys were even close to goose stepping. Of course these kids had no idea what they were doing so it was completely innocent. Diversity is beautiful.

[Shandris]

42. I don't support them choosing Christian songs, I don't support them choosing Islamic songs.

Consistency makes this a non-question in my mind. Now, if they're doing some Christian song in the same ensemble, then I'd be inclined to say let them choose an Islamic song also. The important question is this -- is one religion being -favored-. This is a school, after all.

As a complete side note, the song is beautiful - check out the vid if you didn't.

[Fuzz]

49. Don't ask them to sing any religious songs in a public high school. Problem solved.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. That omits about 3/4 of all choral literature

[Initech]

55. Sounds like he's planning for a career as a Fox News contributor.

[geardaddy]

59. "I don’t want to seem like a racist or a bigot or anything ..."

this is how racist comments usually begin.

[KamaAina]

72. “I think there would be a lot of outrage if we made a Muslim choir sing Jesus is the only truth,”

He's implying that the Grand Junction High School choir is a Christian choir, which it is not.

Apparently Grand Junction is too small to have one of those fundie madrassas, or this dolt would be going to it.