General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf Zimmerman was hurt so badly, why didn't he accept help when it was offered?
One of the witnesses testified that he offered to call for help, but George Zimmerman refused and instead asked for help subduing the "suspect."
If Zimmerman had just had his head slammed against the concrete sidewalk 20-30 times, as he told detectives later, why in the world didn't he accept the offer of medical assistance when it was made?
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)HipChick
(25,485 posts)madaboutharry
(40,190 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)on transport?
premium
(3,731 posts)that would be kidnapping. They can strongly advise, but they can't force you to.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)but he didn't.
The only way the EMT's could've taken him without his consent would be if he were unconscious or had an altered state of mind, and even that's tricky, other than that, there wasn't much they could do.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)they saw themselves the injuries were minor.
Maybe in his confused, not concussed-to-hell state, Zimmerman "forgot" how his head had been slammed into concrete 20 to 30 times by the 8-armed Martin until he'd had time to sleep on it and come up with his self-defense, he was gonna kill me I'm tellin' ya, story
yardwork
(61,539 posts)and the EMTs would have automatically transported him.
The statement he made to police is not believable.
premium
(3,731 posts)if he were unconscious, then they could have transported him without his consent, but once he was conscious again, he could refuse all medical treatment and walk away.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)Good try at evasion, though. Care to answer my question in the OP?
premium
(3,731 posts)I don't know, I wasn't there and neither were you, but I do agree that there's no way he had his head bashed on the concrete 20-30 times, his head would've been pulp.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)but here you go, I don't know why he refused medical assistance, I wasn't there and neither were you, he should have, but for whatever reason, he didn't.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)Why did Zimmerman tell his neighbor not to call the police?
premium
(3,731 posts)he called them earlier and his neighbor has already said that once he saw the fight, he went back into his house to call the police.
This is the first I've heard that he told his neighbor not the call the police, got a link for that? I'd like to read it.
I've tried to find it, but have failed so far.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)That being the case you know that a call to 911 that a violent fight is happening would be a higher priority than a suspicious person call, right?
It doesn't necessarily mean they could get there any faster depending on where the closest officer is and other calls at the time, but all things being equal, a reasonable person would have had another call made if he was being attacked.
The answer you're looking for is in Good's testimony.
premium
(3,731 posts)What the OP is saying is that after the shooting, Zimmerman refused a neighbors offer to call 911, Good has already testified that when he came out of him home and saw the fight, he yell what's going on, he then retreated back into his home to call 911 when he heard the shot.
This is the first I heard of Zimmerman refusing a neighbors offer to call 911 and to help secure Trayvon.
It may have happened, I don't know.
But securing a subject, even if shot and down and dead, is, for LEO's, the first priority, we were trained to keep our weapon on them, remove the subjects weapon and then handcuff the person.
Not saying that's what Zimmerman was thinking that night, I wasn't there, I don't know.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)The neighbor said something about one of them calling for help and he assumed it was the guy on the bottom. I'm not sure exactly what he said but in Zimmerman's reenactment he said he told whoever came out to help him.
George didn't have any right to secure Trayvon. None. This would be totally different if Zimmermand was LEO but he isn't.
I think part of the problem is that everyone is looking at the situation and asking if Zimmerman was defending himself because he's on trial, but if you turn it around and look at the circumstances from Trayvon's side, it seems very apparent that he was the one who was defending himself against Zimmerman.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)It's so transparently obvious what is going on here.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Zimmerman himself relayed that the neighbor offered to call the police, but he said (paraphrase) don't - I already called - I need help subduing the suspect. He claimed to be straddling TM at the time, pinning his arms out at 90*.
Somehow by the time police arrived, TM came back to life, shrugged GZ off of him, folded his arms under his body and went back to being dead again. Quite the feat.
premium
(3,731 posts)Zimmerman's lawyers are going to have to address those issues when the defense presents it's case on Monday.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)As per the neighbor's testimony.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I think he's lying--I think he may have dragged his own head across the raggedy sidewalk while trying to assault the kid he killed. His head was not that messed up--it looked like it had endured some contact at the back, but he didn't look 'bashed' in the slightest.
FarPoint
(12,293 posts)get ahold of his head to be able to slam it 20-30 times into the sidewalk?
Zimmerman was essentially bald headed, ( shaved) that day.....no hair to hold onto. Zimmerman never mentioned a two-handed head slam or ear grabbing. I can't believe it was a basketball bounce...so...
Come to think about it....
It's not that feasible for Trayvon to grab for a gun and slam a head into the sidewalk...
****Additionally, for Zimmerman to visually focus on Trayvon's alledged reaching for his gun while his head was being pounded. Most people dont keep their eyes open due to eye defense reflexes...
The glove does not fit...........
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)they don't have the right to do that.
Not sure of the laws in Florida, and I can't find anything online, but wouldn't that basically amount to kidnapping?
I mean, it's not like he would be under arrest or anything.
premium
(3,731 posts)is it legal to medically transport someone against their will, that would be kidnapping.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)people who were severely injured who refused medical aid, then died as a result.
It happens.
HolyMoley
(240 posts)Even if they should.
I'm one of them.
There's been plenty of times when I've sustained injuries that should have required treatment or stitches, but blew it off.
Sprained my ankle once (I could hear the tendons tear), but dismissed it and walked around on it for the better part of the day. Following morning it was so swollen and painful, I had no choice but to go to the ER.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)The witness testified that he ran up to Zimmerman, who was on top of Martin at the time, and said that he was going to call for help. Zimmerman responded something like "never mind that, just help me subdue this guy."
Think about that. If you had just felt obligated to shoot somebody because they were hurting you so badly that you felt that you had no choice, why wouldn't you gratefully accept the neighbor's offer of help?
If my head had just been slammed against a concrete sidewalk "dozens of times" and somebody rushed up to me saying that they were going to call the police I would say "Thank God. Yes, please call the police! This guy is trying to hurt me!" or more likely if I had just had my head slammed against the concrete "20 or 30 times" as Zimmerman told police, I would be unconscious.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)logically.
Which applies to him throughout the entire incident, imo.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)I think that his words show that he wasn't in fear for his life. All he cared about was "subduing the suspect."
It was only later that he thought about needing to come up with an excuse for killing an unarmed teenager. That's when we start to hear about how his head got slammed on the concrete dozens of times etc.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)If you can discount one thing he said that was not logical or was contradictory to what he said before because of some bogus claim he wasn't thinking straight then you can trust none of what he claims occurred. You can't just pretend that all his lies contradictions and the lack of evidence to support them are ok because he wasn't thinking straight or logically but his multiple stories are still true. In fact, police believed he showed no signs whatsoever that he couldn't think straight or was in any kind of shock or disorientation whatsoever.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)alcohol. Not doing much except trying to feed him answers. Anyone who shoots and kills someone needs to be checked further than Zimmy was. They accepted what he said way too fast and let him go way too fast.
HolyMoley
(240 posts)or treatment.
People can and will refuse medical attention for all kinds of reasons.
Some might seem stupid, unadvisable or silly to others, but to them
it's perfectly normal or has a justifiable reason (like, who's going to pay for this?).
I can't say what Zimmermans reason was, but I see nothing odd, unusual or suspect about his refusal
yardwork
(61,539 posts)and they refuse all assistance - medical and otherwise - and you see nothing unusual about that?
Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)If I was in fear of my life, I would want my assailant pulled off me ASAP. On the other hand, you would prefer to be beaten by someone who appeared to be trying to kill you, while someone may or may not call the police.
Are you being serious?
yardwork
(61,539 posts)Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)he needed medical assistance in the transcripts. Who was this witness? Was it Jon Good, Manalo or someone else?
Skittles
(153,113 posts)if you had just KILLED someone you claimed jumped and you and beat your ass, don't you think you'd want the evidence on the record?
HolyMoley
(240 posts)or wasn't thinking clearly; especially under a stressful situation.
I mean, it's pretty apparent (at least to me), that Zimmerman wasn't the type, or was incapable
of thinking ahead or thinking things through.
If he was, he wouldn't have gotten out of the vehicle in the first place.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)He got out of his vehicle with his weapon because he intended to kill somebody.
HolyMoley
(240 posts)I haven't even been following the trial, at least not closely or in detail.
What little I know I've been picking up here and there.
What did I (and the prosecution), miss that leads you to believe that Zimmerman
intentionally set out to kill someone?
Because if that's a fact (as shown by the "evidence" , then that's 1st degree murder; which he is not being charged with.
premium
(3,731 posts)And you know this how? Show us the evidence that he set out with the intention to kill Trayvon that night.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)but be sure to get in touch with the DA's office with your theory, they'd love to hear it.
Just Saying
(1,799 posts)But I believe he had "gun muscles" and was assuming authority, because he was armed, that he simply did not have.
Without the gun, I believe Zimmerman goes to the grocery store and Trayvon is home watching TV and eating Skittles.
Sad.
premium
(3,731 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Gabby Giffords would not be recuperating, gun lovers would stay home with their babies (as the moron in the 2008 Prez debate called his precious), and our country would be much better off.
premium
(3,731 posts)I'm not going into it again with you. At least I think I did.
Doesn't matter, not in the mood to get into a pissing contest with you.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)surely you can do better than that.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)If Zimmerman is acquitted, I intend to throw myself into gun control like never before. If Zimmerman had not been armed there might have been a fist fight that night, but I doubt that Zimmerman would ever have confronted Martin or anybody else. The only reason Zimmerman felt comfortable acting like a vigilante was because he was armed.
If Zimmerman is acquitted this case is going to be Exhibit One in a renewed push for gun control. Zimmerman apologists ought to think that over.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)if you think a Zimmerman acquittal is going to be exhibit one in a renewed push for gun control, when Newtown barely moved the gun control meter and is already fading from the public's memory, I think you are going to be sorely disappointed. Other then with a few gun control zealots, gun control is dropping off the public's radar like a rock and I doubt this case will do anything to resuscitate those efforts.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I'm skeptical alot of the other stuff will get done as well. Getting anything passed may end up being a total waste of time the next 16 months.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)... who have used a weapon in defense of themself or others.
Fuck those people right?
Skittles
(153,113 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I twisted my knee in football as a kid, but avoided going even when my mother insisted. Late that night, she was proven right as my knee had swollen up so that it resembled a large orange. I went the next morning.
Not sure why, but some people, especially men it seems, illogically resist medical treatment.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)that you were just almost beaten to death? Yeah, I can see Zimmerman not wanting medical treatment if he just twisted his ankle but he claimed he was punched in the face 35-40 times and had his head slammed against concrete 20 or so times. Had that REALLY happened to him and that he felt he had to shoot Martin for fear of immanent death how in the world would he NOT believe that he was so severely injured and would logically need immediate medical attention. The dude claimed he was about the DIE from this supposed beating.
He didn't get medical treatment because he KNEW that his injuries were insignificant and therefore did not reflect what he claimed had happened to him. He had no problem going to work the next day and scurrying immediately off to be evaluated medically when his employer told him he couldn't come back to work until he got a medical release.
JI7
(89,241 posts)THE GUYS WHO REFUSE TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL DO SO BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK IT IS SERIOUS.
BUT ZIMMERMAN IS CLAIMING IT WAS SERIOUS AND THAT'S WHY HE KILLED THAT BOY.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)JI7
(89,241 posts)we aren't just talking about every day life where someone is having some pain or maybe has some injury as a result of accident and they think it will go away with time.
do these people even know what they are replying to ?
if you are going to go so far as to KILL someone over something how can you just blow it off with "oh, well i didn't go when".....
Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 10:07 AM - Edit history (1)
defend yourself while you still can....before you get knocked out or worse. When you're getting beaten by a stranger, I'm sure you'd have no idea of how far they are going or what weapons they are going to use on you. I know if a stranger started beating me, I would KNOW he was trying to hurt/kill me and I wouldn't want to find out how bad that damage was going to be.
JI7
(89,241 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)he said 30 times. Can you point out for me where he said his head was slammed 30 times? Thanks.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)There are so many holes and inconsistencies and outright fabrications in Zimmerman's story, it's difficult to list them all. I hope that the prosecution lists them for the jury.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)exist in Zimmerman's story, I'm thinking that, had Trayvon Martin not died that night...if he had only been seriously injured, but survived...there might well have been some holes and inconsistencies in his story too.
Maybe enough to put reasonable doubt into the minds of the jurors.
People tend to view events through their own filters. It doesn't always mean they're lying...
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)You really thing that reasonable doubt can exist in this case because THE DEAD KID might have had some inconsistencies in his story if he had lived???
Let's hope you never get on any jury ever. Really. Next you'll be saying reasonable doubt can exist if they thought little green Celtic fairies flew over from the Great Beyond and sprinkled fairy dust on Zimmerman that sucked the reasonable parts out of his story and whisked Martin away before he was ever shot to Disneyland for some amusement park fun in the sun.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Of his injuries. In response to his claim that his head had been slammed into the ground as many as thirty times, they showed Zimmerman photos of victims who had had their heads badly beaten. He refused to back down from his statements.
At the very least, the man has a problem telling the truth.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)Was subdued. That is ALL he seemed concerned about.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)so he could make sure he was dead so that there wouldn't be a story of what happened from Martin's side. THere's no way you shoot someone in the chest at point blank range and believe they're going to come after you and kill you. And certainly not when he had a gun. Zimmerman said himself that he re-holstered his gun before getting on top of Martin. Why wouldn't he just have stood there with his gun on him instead of holstering his gun and getting back on top of him if he still thought he was in danger from this kid? Why in the world would anyone who just shot someone in self-defense put their gun away and jump on top of them if they thought they were still so dangerous? Nope, Zimmerman got on top of him to make certain he was good and dead and not be able to tell anyone what REALLY happened. He didn't believe Martin was going to be getting back up and try to kill him with an expanding bullet going into his chest and point blank range, and if for some asinine reason he still believed to be in a life threatening position he wouldn't have holstered his gun and put himself right back to where Martin could hurt him again.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)Pelican
(1,156 posts)1) The actual fight where the neighbor offered to call 911 and Zimmerman asked for physical assistance getting Martin off of him
2) Not going with the EMT post incident
I get how it relates to number 2, less so number 1...
yardwork
(61,539 posts)You and your buddies in this thread are trying to distract and muddy the question by bringing in the EMTs. My OP has nothing to do with that.
My OP asks why George Zimmerman refused the assistance of his neighbor, who offered to call the authorities during the fight. Zimmerman said something like "never mind that, just help me subdue this guy." Explain to me how a person in fear of life refuses the offer of help?
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)"why in the world didn't he accept the offer of medical assistance when it was made? "
You stated 2 things in your OP and different people are replying to them.
Why didn't he accept help when it was offered"
"why in the world didn't he accept the offer of medical assistance when it was made? "
Asking about medical assistance seems to be asking about medical people, like EMTs. Or did the neighbor offer medical assistance too? I recall him only asking if he should call 911.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)A person who was truly in fear for their life would not be parsing the difference between police and medical assistance.
I'm asking everybody to step back and think about why Zimmerman's first reaction to a neighbor's offer of help would be for help to "subdue the suspect" instead of help for Zimmerman.
It just doesn't make sense. If you had had your head "slammed against the concrete sidewalk 20-30 times" as Zimmerman told the police, then your first and probably only priority would be to gratefully accept any assistance offered. That is, if you were even conscious.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I also do not understand how TM's arms went from spread by Z to tucked under his body when police arrived.
I do not understand how it could have gone down like TM said.
If he were afraid SuperTrayvon would jump to his feet and resume the attack, then he'd ask for help subduing him. Even after getting the shit beat out of him which I do not believe he did.
I wish they'd tested Zimmy for drugs.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)If George Zimmerman were convinced that "those fucking punks always get away" and so filled with hatred and fear of black teenagers that he felt obligated to hunt one down and shoot him, I can see why he might think that that terrifying person might still be alive even after being attacked and shot at point blank range.
And I think that Zimmerman did feel that way about Trayvon Martin, and I think that the police and most of the witnesses feel the same way, which is why this trial is going the way it is going.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)premium
(3,731 posts)One of the witnesses testified that he offered to call for help, but George Zimmerman refused and instead asked for help subduing the "suspect."
If Zimmerman had just had his head slammed against the concrete sidewalk 20-30 times, as he told detectives later, why in the world didn't he accept the offer of medical assistance when it was made?
That's what alot of us are responding to.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)Can you think of any reasonable explanation for why a person who was in fear for their life - to the extent that they had just shot somebody to defend themselves - would refuse all offers of help?
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Misplaced concern, but still it was his concern. None of us know why that was his concern.
premium
(3,731 posts)but both neighbors have stated that they called 911, Zimmerman already knew the police were on the way.
Who knows? Maybe he watched too many cop shows, I don't know, all we can do is speculate.
From my training, we were taught to restrain a subject, even if they were shot and down, maybe that's what he was doing.
Here's the bottom line, what you, I, or anyone on this site thinks happened that night is irrelevant, it's what the jury believes happened that night, and if the prosecution proves it's case beyond a reasonable doubt, then Zimmerman goes to prison, if they haven't, then Zimmerman goes home.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)What rational person would ask for help that is minutes away (i.e. the police by phone) when there is an able bodied man a few feet away who could assist instead?
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)to the claim of self defense. The relevant issue is whether he thought or feared that he would suffer grievous bodily harm or be killed. As the prosecution witness Captain Carter testified, he wouldn't recommend that someone let it get that far before responding.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)If you were in fear of your life and a neighbor rushed up to help you, offering to call the police, would you tell them not to call police? Would you say, "Never mind that, just help me subdue this guy."
That does not sound like somebody in fear for their life.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)after getting shot through the chest and beat his head on the pavement until he thought he was going to die while smothering him, holding skittles and reaching for his gun.
He wanted help subduing the dead teen because he knew the police were on the way.
premium
(3,731 posts)his neighbor testified that when he saw the fight, he went back into his house and called 911.
I haven't been able to find anywhere he told his neighbor to not call the police, this is all I could find concerning the other neighbor.
So if Zimmerman did do as you say, it's probably because he already knew that the police had been called.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)that he responded to that guy's request if he needed him to call 911 that he (Zimmerman) already called. That guy was the first person on the scene after the gunshot and the same guy that got the plastic bag for the officer that was doing CPR on Martin.
Zimmerman's entire story regarding the encounter with the Asian guy with the flashlight is false and corroborated by several other witnesses including the Asian guy with the flashlight himself.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)like he knew just how slow police response was in that area. That's why people form neighborhood watch committees, they know that the cops take too damned long to respond to 911 calls.
Look at one fact, there were numerous 911 calls (including GZ's original call), and the cops only arrived AFTER quite a bit of things went down. Even if they were close enough to have come in with sirens, it might have affected the outcome of the fight. Sometimes cops need to put down that damn donut and coffee, and get their asses over to a possible crime scene before things get out of control and somebody gets killed.
It's the basis of legislatures passing "stand your ground" laws.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)from the first 911 call from the neighbors. The whole encounter between Martin and Zimmerman only took about a minute longer. The whole thing was something around 3 or 5 minutes to when the fight started and the arrival of police. You can't count the time starting from Zimmerman's first call because he only called the non-emergency number about a specific person. Police only knew of a 911 call from when the first 911 call of the neighbors went through and dispatch put it out to the police as a "shots fired." The first call to 911 from the neighbors included the gunshot. Martin was already dead even before police got the "shots fired" notification from dispatch. They were anything but slow getting there once they got the notification from dispatch. They couldn't have done anything to stop it because the entire encounter took only a scant few minutes.
There is nothing at all to scorn the police reaction time here. They arrived some time before the EMT's did and did CPR on Martin before the EMT's arrived. If you want to trash anyone about putting down their donuts in the case you need to start with the EMT's, but I'm guessing that won't go over very well.
Amazing what people think the police are capable of. One would think that you expect them to wear capes and have a big yellow "S" on their chests.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)that occurred after the shooting had already taken place, no? The relevant period regarding his fear for his life would be prior to the shooting occurring.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)The reason Zimmerman gave police for his being in fear for his life was that he had been brutally attacked. That's his whole defense.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)that he was attacked and that in the scuffle he thought that Martin saw his pistol and was reaching for it......hence fear for his life. Whether that is true or not, the prosecution has to prove that it was not true beyond a reasonable doubt and since there were no witnesses to the shooting I think that is going to be difficult for them to do.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)fingerprints nor DNA are on the gun.
Zimmerman has said so many different things - he is simply not believable. His injuries are not consistent with his claim of having his head bashed on a concrete sidewalk. The defense featured that as the highlight of their opening statements. They said that Martin was armed with the concrete sidewalk.
It's simply not true. It's a lie.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)is not on trial and anything that he claims Zimmerman said to him is hearsay and probably inadmissible. Zimmerman is not going to take the stand. He had abrasions on his head and was bleeding and a prosecution witness said that the abrasions were consistent with his head hitting concrete. I think it's going to be hard for a jury to look past those facts.
RGR375
(107 posts)If you were in that situation and believed it life threating would you want that person to help now or go call 911 and wait 5, 10, 15, minutes or longer for the police.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)I would not be interested at all in whether or not "the suspect" was "subdued." I wouldn't give a damn about anybody but myself. That's if I could talk at all.
My point is that Zimmerman didn't act anything like a person who had just had their head beaten against a concrete sidewalk dozens of times. Not one of the witnesses indicated that he was in that kind of condition.
I'm pointing out that Zimmerman's story is a lie.
madashelltoo
(1,694 posts)His injuries would be much less of an issue. He met a fist with a gun, unequal response.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)someone can employ deadly force, if there is reasonable belief that they will suffer greivous bodily harm or death. There is not requirement to meet force with equal force if the dynamic described in the statute is in play. Somebody pulls a knife on you, you can shoot him, doesn't matter if using a gun is an "unequal response" if you were in fear of being injured or killed.
RGR375
(107 posts)Never throw facts into the conversation.
madashelltoo
(1,694 posts)Zimmerman instigated something and then hides behind reasonable belief. I don't believe him, reasonably or otherwise. He's lying.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Some people seem so convinced that Zim is telling the truth, despite all the inconsistencies in his story, and the lack of serious injuries to either party aside from the gunshot wound.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Bigoted gun lovers aren't reasonable.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)otherwise I can say I believe redheaded people want to kill me so I can shoot them.
The keyword is reasonable. Zimmerman did not act as a reasonable person.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)If he lied about the severity, it is very much material to his claim of self-defense, because it means the rest of his story of self-defense is in doubt, too.
And according to witnesses at the scene, he was very much lucid and in control afterwards, not at all unlike someone whod had their hes banged into the sidewalk. According to the police and two doctors -- including his own personal medical professional -- he was exaggerating his injuries.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)and precisely why the police questioned it and why the prosecution is now arguing. What is immaterial is what ZIMMERMAN thought he was in fear of his life over but what a reasonable person would have thought. Zimmerman could honestly been afraid for his life if Martin had flicked a booger at him, but it isn't what HE thought that is material it is what a reasonable person would have thought and no reasonable person would believe that flicking a booger at you is so terrifying that you'd be afraid for your life.
Further, What matters even more is that a reasonable person would not believe that his insignificant injuries were acquired by being punched in the face 35-40 times and having their head slammed on concrete 20 times or so. Because any reasonable person would believe if that had actually happened than Zimmerman's head would have turned into the consistency of pudding and not just had a bloody swollen nose and a couple of bitty little abrasions on the back of his head.
Carter was talking about regular self-defense - meeting force with reasonable equal force. DEADLY force is a whole different animal. A reasonable person would have to believe that going by his insignificant injuries that he was in IMMANENT peril of death and that shooting Martin was the ONLY recourse. Except that isn't reasonable. There is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman did ANYTHING to fight Martin off before shooting him. He didn't punch him, didn't try to strangle him, didn't grab hold of his manly parts and give him a "Virginia nut roll" - NOTHING. He said that all he tried to do while his head was supposedly being slammed in concrete repeatedly and punched dozens of times in the face so that he was in immanent fear of immanent death that he merely wiggled around to try to get his head on the grass and off the concrete. So, Zimmerman himself admitted he did NOT try meeting force with force to try to get the upper hand while he was still in a state of NOT being in fear of immanent death. He tries to have us believe he did NOTHING but wiggle his head off the pavement and then grab his gun and shot him. How he can explain how it was physically possible to get his hand and arm between his own body and Martin's leg or over Martin's body to even get to the gun and so quickly is another whopper of a lie.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)is that the jury is going to conclude after looking at the pictures of a blood covered Zimmerman, hearing from the EMT that his nose was fractured, hearing from the ME that the abrasions on his head were consistent with it being hit on concrete and from Captain Carter that he would not recommend people waiting until grievous bodily harm or death has actually occurred before employing self defense, that self defense was reasonable in this case. We will have to wait and see but I think the odds are at this point that Zimmerman walks with either a not guilty verdict or a hung jury.
Kingofalldems
(38,425 posts)They said so.
libodem
(19,288 posts)*I win the internets, huh, Yardie*
catbyte
(34,341 posts)He was mired in Dirty Harry fantasies. Hey Zim, it's not so glamorous now, is it? Moron. He didn't seek medical attention because he wasn't badly hurt. Scalp cuts bleed like hell & Martin had no dna on his hands. What a lying POS.
Soundman
(297 posts)Oh wait, you can't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Richardson
Not all fatal head injuries look or feel that way, but don't let that get in the way. Imagination and prejudice rule when it comes to this incident.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)The Asian guy with the flashlight did not arrive until after Z was already off of Martin. He testified he first encountered Z when Z walked up to him with his cellphone to his ear. The man then asked him if he needed to call 911 for him, Z hung up his phone and told him that he already did.
At least two other witnesses testified that the Asian man with the flashlight showed up after they witnessed Zimmerman pacing. One of them said that they saw Z pace up and down 2 or three times (which I think was the flashlight man's wife) and another one said they saw him pacing until the guy with the flashlight arrived but not pacing up and back (which just says they weren't watching that long.
It was quite some time before the guy with the flashlight showed up on the scene because he testified that after hearing the gunshot he went out to their garage at the front of the house, grabbed a flashlight, exited the house through the garage at the front of the house, and then leisurely walked past the fronts of a few houses to where the sidewalk at the top of the "T" started, walked down the top of the "T" to the long arm of the "T" in the middle past the side of the house on the end of the row which had to have taken some significant amount of time. And we know that following the gunshot there was no more screaming or calls for help, so Z had a lot of time to do all this pacing up and down on the phone to whoever he was calling (I don't think he ever did make a call to 911 after he shot Martin, and if he didn't who in the hell was he talking to?). The first officer on the scene also arrived shortly after the guy with the flashlight (Z and the guy with the flashlight only had enough time for him to ask if he needed him to call 911 and to ask what caliber he used which is a damned odd question. But he never asked if Z needed medical care sine he testified he didn't seem badly hurt, and then he took a photo of the back of Z's head. At that point the police officer showed up and testified that both men were standing talking a distance away from the body.
But as to why Zimmerman didn't want to go to the hospital when he was asked several times by EMT's and the police later at the station he repeatedly said no. He also went to work the next day and was told he could not come back to work until he had seen a doctor and gotten permission to return which was the only reason he went to the doctor the next day. Keep in mind that Z's friend that wrote the book (without clarifying anything with Z about the incident to write the book) testified that they didn't leave the police station until 1am or as late as 2am that night. If Z didn't get home until that late he sure didn't think he was injured so badly as to get up and go to work in the morning.
RGR375
(107 posts)Then John Good said i will call 911 then ran off to call 911. If he would have helped we might not even be having this conversation.
yardwork
(61,539 posts)yardwork
(61,539 posts)My point is that if Zimmerman's head had been smashed into the concrete 20 or 30 times, as he told the police, he wouldn't give a damn about the "suspect" or anybody but himself. He would probably be unconscious.
His behavior at the scene indicates that he was not seriously hurt. That proves that he lied to the police. If Zimmerman lied about that, what else did he lie about?
Thank you for posting these details about the case. I have read all your posts. They've been very helpful.
Bottom line, I don't believe a word Zimmerman says. I think that he made up the "fear for my life" after he killed Martin. He knew enough about criminal law to know that this was his only possible defense for killing an unarmed person.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Because it was Zimmerman himself who claimed that plus and entire fictitious discussion with the guy with the flashlight in his re-enactment video.
Of course he would care about going to get checked out at the hospital had he really believed that he had suffered as much trauma as he claimed and was afraid for his life. His excuse was that he didn't have insurance. But when he wasn't allowed to go back to work without going to get checked out and getting a medical clearance to return to work, oh THEN it became important to get checked out... so important he went that very day.
I think he was at one point in fear of his life and why supposedly that question didn't spike the polygraph he supposedly took. But he was in fear of his life because he had the gun out and was afraid that Martin was going to get it away from him, and THAT's why he shot him. That isn't self-defense on Zimmerman's part though but on Martin's part. Hence the fabricated story that's just textbook for "All the Legal Reasons I'm Not Guilty."
yardwork
(61,539 posts)I would like to know more about this claim that the people at his workplace insisted that he get a doctor's clearance before returning to work. That doesn't really add up. I suspect that Zimmerman went to see his PA the next day to get his story about Martin attacking him on the record.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)While I highly doubt the defense account of events, as a general rule I find it best not to assume everything is okay just because the guy with a serious head injury said so. But no one need worry about my opinion, since I'm not on the jury.
I guess the way I see it is:
state's case:
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The defendant admits that he fired a gun, killing the victim. The state rests.
defense case:
it was an accident.--
then why was his gun out in the first place. intent can be inferred from that. in fact why was he armed at all? One of those guys was ready for a gunfight. which one?
it was self defense--
okay, so not an accident. he meant to shoot the vic. what lethal threat was he facing? was Z. the aggressor?--that negates SD.
just what in the name of hell was Z. doing following that kid in the first place.
in other words, why should the jury believe the defendant. if they don't, the state's case--he shot the vic--wins almost by default.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)yardwork
(61,539 posts)If anybody had to stand their ground that night it was Trayvon Martin, walking through his own neighborhood, unarmed, not bothering anybody until he was confronted by a vigilante.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)the outcome of the trial. I had him pegged as a "wanna-be" cop from the get-go. I have seen the pre-trial coverage extensively, haven't watched the trial, though. If he was acting as an agent of the homeowner's group, then he also to my mind had an extra fudiciary duty, beyond any else which may be required/allowed by law which would require he NOT stand any ground without just cause. But, like I said, I'm not versed in Florida law.
librechik
(30,674 posts)he was subsding Trayvon and a neighbor was there offering to call 911? When did Trayvon get shot? In front of the neighbor?
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)And Zimmerman lied that he was on top of Martin and subduing him when the guy with the flashlight showed up who was the first person on the scene. That guy's testimony was that he didn't encounter Zimmerman until he started walking down the long arm of the "T" and Zimmerman was walking up to him out of the dark. He noticed that Zimmerman had blood coming from his nose and dripping down his face with his cellphone up next to his ear. The man asked him if he wanted him to call 911, and Zimmerman said he already did (though IIRC he didn't). Zimmerman lied about the entire exchange between himself and that man with the flashlight which is corroborated by several other witnesses including the first officer on the scene as he testified when he got to the scene he witnessed Zimmerman and the man with the flashlight talking some distance from the body.
In his re-enactment video Zimmerman lied about that entire scenario between him and the man with the flashlight in where he was, what he was doing, what was said and who said what. Right after the shooting at least two witnesses testified that they saw him pacing up and down before the guy with the flashlight showed up. Actually, I believe it was three... the man with the flashlight's wife, who said that she saw him pace one way, turn and pace the other, and turn back again to pace and then was noticed by her husband with the flashlight, a blonde woman whose name I can't remember said his hand went up to his forehead and the spanish speaking woman that said his hand was up at the crown of his head. I can't remember which of these two women said they only saw him pacing in one direction or not before the guy with the flashlight showed up... in other words they started witnessing what was going on a bit later than the wife of the guy with the flashlight.
librechik
(30,674 posts)of course the whole thing is a lie--that's why so many contradictions.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)He would have had a concussion. Dude is a liar among liars.
(Oh and heya YW - long time! )
yardwork
(61,539 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)that wouldn't have gone away for at least several days. I've whacked my own noodle enough times to know though never got a concussion from being whacked that hard. So if my big sore eggs lasted at least a few days his should have lasted a lot longer. That little bit of swelling he had was nearly gone at the time the photos at the police station were taken that night. So much so that I couldn't see any swelling at all in those photos.
There's just no way on earth he got those two bitty abrasions on the back of his head from having his head slammed into concrete even once just as the ME said. She would only testify to "impacted" not "slammed" and impacted could mean gently putting one's head down on a surface. From the way the blood flowed it looks pretty obvious that he got them by his head coming into contact with something like a tree branch or his head slightly impacting pavement or something rough in the grass since I don't believe his head was anywhere near the sidewalk like small stones or bits of tree branches or something like that. Whatever it was he immediately got up because there is no smearing of the blood, the blood flowed down the back of his head and almost immediately forward toward his face meaning that from the time of the impact he very quickly got into a position where he was sitting or standing up with his chin forward toward his chest lowering his head down.
Actually, from looking at how the blood flowed he had to have sat or stood almost immediately after the impact which makes me think that he impacted his own head back on a somewhat rough surface which could have been the grass with bits of flotsam in it like bits of tree branches or little pebbles when either the gun recoiled causing him to hit his own face or having shot Martin he fell forward on top of him causing the gun to whack his own face and cause both the nose injury and the head injury by his face being hit and causing his head to fall back on whatever surface that caused those two little abrasions.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)I read somewhere else on here that the gun used has a reputation for a strong recoil (or whatever the term is for it causing your arm to blow back after firing it).
demunderground1985la
(3 posts)Because GZ is a lying, steaming pile of shite. Actually, that would be an insult to shite.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts). . . it ddnit really happen.
Oh, noes!!!!!!
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Did he as with help subduing Martin before or after he shot him?
I haven't been following this as closely as I'd like as I am overseas.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)His well-being and personal safety took a backseat to his concern about saving a neighborhood from a kid with a Mountain Dew and a bag of Skittles.
What a hero.