If a person wanted to defeat progressivism, what would

[MineralMan]

he or she do? I think I have the answer.

That person would start a campaign to plant suspicion of elected Democrats and would recruit people to spread the idea that those elected were not really progressive and that, despite their successes in improving people's conditions of life, they were the enemy of the people.

Over a period of time, that message could be inserted into all sorts of places and cheered on by others. If enough people could be recruited, even places that were bastions of support for Democrats and staunch in their opposition to Republicans could begin to become places that opposed Democrats who were elected in previous elections.

The key would be to claim that those doing this carrying of water were the true progressives, and that those who supported progress by electing Democrats were dupes. Websites could be started to slant the discussion in this direction, while pretending to be progressive. Selective reporting of news and blogging extensively would give those websites an appearance of importance they could not earn on their own. The word would spread. That's the theory and practice.

Fortunately, that trick won't work, despite any number of people trying to carry it out. The voters will still vote in their own candidates, despite any such trickery. The people are not as stupid as some think they are.

[HiPointDem]

1. if the conditions of people's lives were improving they would not be susceptible to such tactics.

it's because the conditions are getting *worse* that they are.

[MineralMan]

2. As we saw in the 2012 elections?

I don't think so, actually. You can claim whatever you wish. I look at numbers. No. Conditions are actually improving for people. Not everyone is seeing the improvements, but many are. And the improvements are real. Most recently, our LGBT friends had their marriage equality fight see some major improvements. Families are able to insure their college age children and help them secure health care. The unemployment rate is down, with different results in different areas, of course.

Improvements are there, and those who are experiencing them know they are there. Most people aren't even exposed to the "facts" being promulgated on the Internet. They're living their lives. False flag operations rarely succeed, because they simply don't reach more than a tiny minority.

[HiPointDem]

23. First Quarter Of 2013 Saw Largest Wage Drop Ever

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 05:42 PM - Edit history (2)

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/06/07/2121581/first-quarter-of-2013-saw-largest-wage-drop-ever/?mobile=nc

As Health Law Changes Loom, A Shift To Part-Time Workers

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/29/179864601/as-health-law-changes-loom-a-shift-to-part-time-workers

More Americans Uninsured in 2011

More American adults lacked health insurance coverage last year than in any year since Gallup and Healthways started tracking it in 2008. The uninsured rate has been increasing since 2008, climbing to 17.1% in 2011.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152162/americans-uninsured-2011.aspx

Corporate Profits Soar as Proprietors’ Income Stagnates: The Decline of Small Business and what to do about it.

http://www.economonitor.com/dolanecon/2013/06/03/corporate-profits-soar-as-proprietors-income-stagnates-the-decline-of-small-business-and-what-to-do-about-it/


Unemployment rate


Labor force participation rate

[AnotherMcIntosh]

51. True, "More American adults lacked health insurance coverage," but now ins purchase is mandatory ...

/sarcasm off

[bvar22]

83. but the economy added more low wage, no benefits part time McJobs!!!!

76% of Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck
http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/24/pf/emergency-savings/index.html


New Rule (Passed by Congress and signed by President Obama) signals Kiss of Death for Pensions
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100694955

Wealthy win lion's share of major tax breaks
http://www.boston.com/business/news/2013/05/29/wealthy-win-lion-share-major-tax-breaks/Ua0UyYle21EUXub7g1suCI/story.html

Half of America is in poverty, and its creeping toward 75%
http://www.alternet.org/economy/real-numbers-half-america-poverty-and-its-creeping-toward-75-0

Wealth gap widens as labor's share of income falls
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wealth-gap-widens-labors-share-income-falls-1B6097385

As the Economy Recovers, the Wealth Gap Widens
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/rick-newman/2013/03/11/as-the-economy-recovers-the-wealth-gap-widens

Top One Percent Captured 121 Percent Of All Income Gains
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/12/top-one-percent-income-gains_n_2670455.html

Corporate Profits Hit Record High While Worker Wages Hit Record Low
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/12/03/1270541/corporate-profits-wages-record/?mobile=nc


These things ^ do NOT happen by accident.
They take careful planning, preparation, marketing, buying the right politicians, message control, and the marginalization of any opposition.



[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]




You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[Pretzel_Warrior]

6. scoreboard, baby!

[NRaleighLiberal]

14. come on and check things out in North Carolina.....

...and it is squarely on the backs of Republicans - but just on the basis of "are things getting better"? - the answer here is "No"

[bluestate10]

94. Conditions are slow to change because of republican obstructionism.

Your claim is EXACTLY why we should elect democrats at all levels, Federal, State and Local. The posers here on DU that attack democrats and assign all failures to democrats never focus on the real problem, republicans.

[HiPointDem]

95. bullshit. conditions are slow to change because the entire ruling establishment doesn't want

the most critical things to change -- the most critical being the near-total domination of economic and political life by the ruling class.

[NRaleighLiberal]

3. ...and what about the opposite?

It is really the basis of advertising, isn't it? Take a message, repeat, repeat, repeat.....and it works for any sort of message.

We as humans are particularly susceptible - (would Bud Light be the best selling beer in the country otherwise?)

[HiPointDem]

24. kind of like what you do.

[NRaleighLiberal]

36. huh? meaning?

[HiPointDem]

41. sorry, mistook you for someone else

[NRaleighLiberal]

42. whew....I didn't think I crossed any lines!

[Wilms]

4. That person would plant faux-progressives as candidates, in my estimation.

And we've witnessed just that. The 1% doesn't give a damn one way or the other about social issues...so don't even start. (Plus we're awash in blue links about it).

But spin away. It's a holiday weekend. Enjoy your Independence.

[MineralMan]

12. I will, thanks.

Then it will be back to working to get good, progressive people nominated and elected to office in my own district.

[GoneFishin]

33. You nailed it. Someone who consistently fakes left, but goes right.

I fell for it big time.

I remember when Hillary's campaign put out information indicating that Obama had committed to the canadians to NOT undo NAFTA. But since BO seemed so committed to what was best for the country I fumed and called her campaign people liars.

In retrospect, I bet her campaign people were right all along.

[Wilms]

57. Meanwhile, she'd never do anything but aid NAFTA and the like.

The two of them were the same choice. Good cop/bad cop...depending upon your POV one or the other. But it was all the same.

[GoneFishin]

76. No doubt whatsoever, but I was never fooled by her. I was totally fooled by him.

There is no difference between the two of them.

[YoungDemCA]

5. Oh for fuck's sake...

No.

[MineralMan]

8. Thank you for your informative, thoughtful reply.

Really...

[YoungDemCA]

10. I thought your informative, thoughtful thread was worth it

[Mojorabbit]

7. I don't even know where to begin with this post.

if the party is doing it's job and representing the average Joe then none of these tactics would work.

[MineralMan]

9. Well, think about it for a while.

Something may come to you.

[forestpath]

11. My two so-called Democratic senators recently voted to cut food stamps.

I don't call that a success in improving anyone's life.

Voting records are public (so far, anyway). We can see their non-progressive votes.

[MineralMan]

13. And who will you be voting for in the future, I wonder?

That will make the difference, perhaps.

[HiPointDem]

27. apparently he voted for the democrats & got food stamp cuts.

[forestpath]

78. Thank you, exactly.

P.S. I'm a she.

[rhett o rick]

15. The ultimate denial thread. If you dare question your elected officials then you are obviously

trying to "plant suspicion" in the Democratic administration. What is your concept of democracy? Sitting down and shutting up? Is this Rambo?

It's the progressives that are fighting for the Constitution while the conserva-Dems scream for status-quo.

[MineralMan]

16. From the OP: I'll be back in a couple of hours

to reply to any responses to this. I have to leave my computer for a while.

[Scootaloo]

17. "Progressive" and "Democratic Party" are two different things

They can and in recent times often do overlap. But one is not the other and they should not be equated, lest the assumption be that party loyalty is the same as ethical belief.

[MineralMan]

20. How's the "Progressive" party doing in elections?

I'm not seeing their candidates too much. We have two parties. One or the other fields the winning candidate for every important office. Which will you choose?

[Scootaloo]

28. Progressivism, per your title, is an ideology

It exists independent of party or person.

You are trying to equate party and ideology. It doesn't work that way.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

18. Conspiracy Theory Much?

[MineralMan]

22. No, not much...

Enjoy the 4th!

[HiPointDem]

30. +1. only it's an officially approved conspiracy theory, so it can't be used to smear people.

[Fumesucker]

19. That sounds remarkably like a conspiracy

There is a place for those sort of posts and it's not GD.

[MineralMan]

21. There is an alert button at the bottom of this post.

You can contact the hosts of GD with your concern by clicking it.

[Fumesucker]

37. Never used ignore, never used alert

Unlike many I don't feel the need to control others, I was just stating my opinion of your conspiracy minded post.

[Douglas Carpenter]

25. if someone wanted to defeat progressivism - they might manipulate office holders who ran on a

progressive platform to carry out reactionary policies - even policies that violate core values of western democracy.. Then bamboozle a significant number of the party faithful into embracing these reactionary policies and smearing those who remain faithful to liberal and democratic values accusing them of being on the other side. Thus progressivism can be defeated even under a liberal veneer. Not only does this defeat progressivism in the name of progressivism - it insures that there are no viable alternatives to reactionary policies.

[GoneFishin]

35. Very well stated. +1000

[HiPointDem]

45. +1. seems to be a trend internationally as well. it's the labor parties that typically have

implemented austerity policies internationally -- at least in this go-round. even the socialists and communists in some cases.

[pampango]

26. As the GOP drives itself to extinction, the idea that "both parties are the same" may save it.

The GOP's only hope at this point is to sell the idea that "We are no worse than the Democratic Party". I don't think a lot of minorities believe that but a majority of whites seem to.

[Democracyinkind]

29. I think they'd hired freepers and wingnuts to come to DU and bemoan the infiltration by paulites...

[Marr]

31. No, they'd purchase a faction of the party leadership, and watch the party disintegrate as

it's corporate shill representatives push the same policies that their voting base voted *against*.

[OnyxCollie]

32. If a person wanted to defeat progressivism,

he could recruit a conservative from Freeperville to infiltrate a liberal, Democratic message board, become its forum host, and do message control to convince newbies that progressive ideas are faulty and conservative ideas are good.

I think this has the potential to work.

[leftstreet]

53. ...

[HangOnKids]

58. Bam! Love It

Thanks for saying it.

[Bluenorthwest]

61. And there you have it.

nt

[Kurovski]

62. This is the only way that would be effective.

Thank GAWD it isn't happening!!!

MM's way insures obedience and groupthink. Which sucks. I'm reminded of the horror film "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."

Hey...wait a sec...

[Bluenorthwest]

69. It should remind you of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."

[Kurovski]

71. Oh my heavens! Why is Carolyn Jones screaming over a little conformity?

She's so much prettier when she smiles!

[Maven]

70. HAHAHAHA

[BumRushDaShow]

34. And thus as they (Tip O'Neill) say -"All elections are local"

and fortunately the average voter doesn't imbibe in the travesty that has befallen DU... and it's a matter of working locally to help take back the House and hold the Senate.

K&R

[cali]

38. there's something quite funny about this, coming as it does from

a former long term freeper who spent years attacking progressives.

[MerryBlooms]

39. +1

You said it.

[cali]

54. Yeah, I did. it's bullshit that MM is sanctimoniously accusing longtime DUers

of carrying water for repukes and conservatives when they were fighting for progressive causes while at the same time he was attacking progressives, supporting bushco and posting anti LGBT crap. And he was doing that over in hateful freeperville.

[Puglover]

60. And people can't see it.

And that is so disturbing.

[Bluenorthwest]

63. You are correct cali

this guy was at FR posting libels against gay people and John Kerry during the 2004 election and continued through 2008 at least, probably still.
Not to mention the racist stuff, he called African American Obama voters 'caricatures' and 'stereotypes' among other things. Vile crap, bigoted on many levels.

[cali]

73. yep. that's the thing about the intertubes, nothing just vanishes forever.

[Bluenorthwest]

80. He posted it here himself, and others did in the threads in which he 'confessed'

to his bigoted posts on FR and other right wing sites or I'd never have seen it. Of course he 'self deleted' all of those DU OPs just as he did the OP the day SCOTUS repealed DOMA in which he equated marriage equality to people marrying a tomato plant.

[cali]

85. what??? he posted an op here equating marriage equality to people marrying a tomato plant?

I missed that vile bit. How was he not tombstoned for that?

[The Link]

90. Because he said it was satire.

A joke.

[Bluenorthwest]

91. Yes and pull the same 'I refuse to remove it' followed by 'it was satire' and

eventual self deletion after many people told him how offensive it was, not to mention poorly timed and coming from person who has no standing to make any jokes every again about any minority, the fact that he does demonstrates that he is not remorseful of past actions but instead repetitive of those actions.

[Fumesucker]

43. Spent?

That implies that they stopped at some point, I'm not sure that is the case.

[HangOnKids]

59. Zing!

[Starry Messenger]

49. This.

[leftstreet]

52. +1

[frustrated_lefty]

40. That seems rather convoluted.

Much simpler to align oneself with rich and powerful moneyed interests, stifle dissent, and eliminate all opportunity for the unwashed masses to drag themselves out of the gutter.

[Waiting For Everyman]

44. And this thread isn't designed to create suspicion of Dems, is it?

Didn't think so.

Trying to de-legitimatize others' opinions isn't very cool, you know.

[treestar]

46. act like a freeper's exaggeration of a progressive

As we often see here. Make overly idealistic demands and refuse to consider reason but only emotion. Complain about how nothing the government can do for them is ever enough. Demand there be no military spending or national security. Act like cops are always in the wrong (often calling them pigs or some such thing).

[GoneFishin]

79. And frequently employ straw man arguments and extreme exaggeration.

And sometimes just plain making things up.

[LWolf]

47. That person would

send in ringers to reframe issues. Those ringers would have good leadership skills and be great at propaganda. They would start usurping words and phrases and shaping them to mean something else. Calling their think tank "The Progressive Policy Institute," for example, thus linking progressivism with it's antithesis, neoliberalism. Over a few decades, they become the mainstream, and the old "progressives" become the loony fringe left. True progressivism is defeated by the "new" "progressives."

[Bonhomme Richard]

48. I think they would infiltrate progressive sites and.....

attempt to create confusion in the minds of the fence sitters.

[Egalitarian Thug]

50. I don't know, you thought posting this was a good idea. n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

55. Koch Bros spreadin' it around!

[calimary]

56. +1,000,000!!!!

I'm gonna have to refer to this in Will Pitt's thread.

If we damage OUR brand too much - we'll wind up stuck with Brand X.

[MrSlayer]

64. Right because all the Reaganite things these alleged progressives are doing aren't really happening.

They aren't really undermining the American worker, it just appears that way.

No one is pushing for MORE deregulating, job killing trade agreements, that's just what "they" want you to think. We're actually renegotiating NAFTA and putting on our comfortable shoes to walk a picket line.

Pay no attention to the immigration bill that loads the MIC with more cash and :gasp: undermines American jobs with insourcing. That's all just hooey. Everyone knows there are no Americans that can do those smarty smart tech jobs at a reasonable price.

What? Someone told you we got the Heritage Foundation 's health care law? Phooey! There's a robust public option that will eventually turn into single payer!

The Post office? Lies!
Bailouts? Lies!
Appointing Republicans to major cabinet positions? Never happened.

So on and so forth. We have Reagan jr. as president and a party full of Reaganites. There is no bullshit about that. Social issues are great but you can't feed your family with them. And you can't feed your family with these turncoat, Reaganesque labor and economic issues.

[LittleBlue]

65. They'd buy a politician to pose as a progressive

when really, he's a tool for the 1%.

That isn't what they would do, that's what they've done.

[Puglover]

66. Gee if I didn't know better I'd have to wonder if this OP

wasn't an example of your famous F.U.D. theory. But it couldn't be, right?

[HangOnKids]

68. No Way! Come On Now?

[Bluenorthwest]

67. This OP perfectly fits my afternoon's reading subject, McCarthyism

McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence.
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6456/

[HiPointDem]

89. like the boggers.

[The Link]

72. I have read several times from several different members that you are a freeper.

Is this true?

[cali]

75. yes, it's true. just type Mineral Man Free Republic into

google search or do a site search here. He claims that his years there were as a mole but many of his posts belie that claim.

[MineralMan]

84. No. I am not. I have not been

on that site since 2006, when I was banned as an antifreeper, which I was. I will not discuss it further. The Meta forum no longer exists. If you want to know about me, click the links in my signature line.

[cali]

86. you posted plenty of anti-progressive stuff over there and you dissed duers

I read your posts there at the time.

[mick063]

74. If you are here to defend the President

which you obviously are.................

please don't confuse progressive ideals with defending a pseudo Republican sock puppet.

You do not carry the progressive banner. If there is suspicion to be raised, it should be raised about those that tow the corporate line to defend a fleeting, forgettable individual that will be absent from public consciousness in about 3 years.

[BanTheGOP]

77. Simple answer: Ban the GOP

That is the basis for absolute World Peace and tranquility.

[suffragette]

81. Or someone could pretend to convert to a Democrat, then join Republicans to give them a majority

Thus effecting a coup.

And this after taking funds from the state party to get elected.

[TheKentuckian]

82. Easy, stock the pond with corporate Democrats who pitch themselves as liberals during elections and

scramble to the right as soon as they are in office this way they gather the heat from the "opposition" for being far left wing, socialist, and/or communist that way word on the street is what ever the corporatist do is liberal or progressive.

You then may adapt Laissez Fare economics, imperialism, a permanent war footing, systematic destruction of civil liberties, and assault public education as then the only brakes on the system is that the TeaPubliKlans moderate or at least stop moving the goal posts further and further right. If they do not then Democrats have functional license to go to virtually any extreme as long as they do not actually clearly surpass the "opposition" for a prolonged period of time. There is extra room to function to the right because the "opposition" has been so rabid and out of hand that just matching them isn't enough to move the needle due to rightful fear that they would be even more extreme than promised or proven in the past so that even if the nominal "Democrat" does what the TeaPubliKlan did in the past they can still present as a lesser evil because the new mouthbreathing bigot will do worse.

Then all you have to do is browbeat your Democratic voters with of the other to keep them in line and if anyone makes friction you invite them to vote for a TeaPubliKlan. If that doesn't work then guilt them. If that doesn't work then bully them. If that doesn't work then accuse them of racism, ratfucking, question their patriotism, sexism, wishing suffering, whatever it takes other than any effort to remedy the reasons for upset.

All the while you support the oppositions world view and accept their framing and work tirelessly to shrink the range of acceptable debate and ideas and display unwaivering support of the establishment while attacking the left and left ideals from with in the party and you attack like a rabid raccoon support for those ideas, feverishly making every effort to flip the focus from policy ideals to personalities and party so that there is no progressive movement at all and failing that make sure the ground is salted within the party so that the movement has no traction electorally and can continue to be attacked for pissing into "the big tent" that only has room for conservatives and corporatist.

That will probably be a fair start, you could also team up with the "opposition" to cut off funding to grass roots organizations and attack coalition interest groups as libertarian, traitors, or whatever else can be flung at the wall to concentrate all focus into the now corporate political party.

Failing to do much other than to bolster the MIC, banks, and unleash the Just Us Department on anybody that gets out of the party line also poisons the well creating massive distrust and cynicism.

You can also put "the opposition" in charge the military, clandestine operations, and Treasury and campaign vigorously for those that are supposedly hamstringing the agenda from inside just to be sure folks are frustrated as hell.

I guess just keep up with what you are doing and hope fools fall for the tricks and if that doesn't work use the powers that the state has gathered to limit any other movement.

[bvar22]

87. YEAH!!!

And if a frog wanted to stop bumping his ass every time he jumped,
he would grow WINGS!

And THAT is about as likely as your contrived conspiracy nonsense!

[HangOnKids]

96. I Lurve You!

Interesting thread. Doesn't appear to be going the way the OP intended.

[Zorra]

88. They would infiltrate progressive websites with well coached freepers. nt

[XemaSab]

92. War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Progressivism is whatever we define it as.

[bluestate10]

93. There are two or three prominent members of DU whose progressive credentials

I question. They do NOTHING but incessantly attack democrats and never attack a republican or the regressive republican policies that are being enacted in states that are controlled by republicans.