ZIMMERMAN TRIAL: Day 8, Wednesday, July 3, 2013

[GreenStormCloud]

Live video here:http://www.mediaite.com/uncategorized/live-zimmerman-trial-jury-selection-day-6/

[GreenStormCloud]

1. Looks like they started early today. N/T

[riverwalker]

2. Hope she allows the wannabe evidence

I think Z thought he would be a big hero, catching a "perpetrator" hold him at gun point until the police arrived. He would be "one of them".

[pokerfan]

9. Wannabe evidence is in... (nt)

[riverwalker]

3. O'Mara wants more time

she says hell no (my words), you had all night to look up case law.

[riverwalker]

57. he had time to go on AC360

last night, but not enough time to prepare for today.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. O'Mara really doesn't want the college records in.

Wonder why he's so vocal?

[Ruby the Liberal]

11. The course in question taught specifically about SYG law

and one of the documents they want to admit was a term paper Zimmerman wrote in 2010.

Thinking this is why they played the Hannity interview where Zimmerman denied knowing anything about SYG before the shooting.

[riverwalker]

12. sounds like they don't know what the testimony

will be. Mantei kept saying, well he was on the discovery list, you had the information, you could of found out. I think the defense is pretty worried.

[warrior1]

5. I'm glad the judge boxed his ears

[riverwalker]

6. yes!!!!

Professor will testify

[Tommy_Carcetti]

7. School records are admissible. nt

[warrior1]

8. Goes to Z's motive

yeah

[bravenak]

10. The evidence is in.

Will be allowed.

[uponit7771]

16. nice!!!

[Nevernose]

13. The defense tries this a lot

Was it last week that both O'Mara and Zimmerman blew off a deposition (last Tuesday night, I believe), and then argued that the witness shouldn't be allowed because the defense hasn't deposed the witness?

And isn't O'Mara who several times now has stipulated that evidence is acceptable before trial, then objected in court? And once claimed that a year and a half wasn't long enough to prepare?

[riverwalker]

14. witness Sonja Boles-Melvin

in charge of records at community college

[HipChick]

15. This attorney reminds me of Skeletor..

[KurtNYC]

32. Vladimir Lenin

[riverwalker]

17. why did defense bring up bad credit

as reason for rejection, when prosecution never asked about it? weird

[Lurks Often]

35. Not at all

showing Zimmerman was rejected for bad credit, something many people have gone through at one time or an other, shows he wasn't rejected for reasons that would be more detrimental to the defense's case.

[Ruby the Liberal]

18. Riddle me this

Why did the defense argue to block the paper that had the words "bad credit" on it (judge redacted it) and then brought it up anyway on a different piece of paper?

[uponit7771]

19. well, now things get interesting..Zimmerman was the best student

[Tommy_Carcetti]

28. Well he shouldn't plead ignorance on self-defense laws.

Not that ignorance of the law is an actual defense.

[bravenak]

20. If the defense thought bad credit is prejudicial, why did they bring it up?

I think he thought the evidence wouldn't be allowed and didn't plan appropriately.

[riverwalker]

21. Captain Alexis Francisco Carter

military prosecutor, his former professor. My livestream keeps cutting out ..damn

[Ruby the Liberal]

22. BOOM! SYG introduced and Zimmy was one of the best students...

Ha!

[uponit7771]

23. +1, by a lawyer!! NICE

[bravenak]

24. He learned about stand your ground and self defence .

I knew he was lying.

[HipChick]

25. How do you have a 1.5 GPA?

[uponit7771]

26. That one class being the only one he was interested in...

[Ruby the Liberal]

27. ...and here comes the Defense to discredit the Captain

as an inexperienced teacher who went out of bounds of the course and "tainted" teaching with bad information....

I can smell it.

[uponit7771]

29. This guy isn't RJ, he's going to make it hard as heck for them

[uponit7771]

30. I focused on Florida law .. boom...he's going to be harder to break than RJ. He knows where they're.

...going

[madaboutharry]

31. All they have is that the course wasn't "specific" to Florida.

The defense is on shaky ground here. They are dealing with a Captain in the Army.

[Ruby the Liberal]

34. They are going for the SYG defense

Prosecution should have defined it - not given the defense the opportunity to do that.

[riverwalker]

33. BOOM!!!! "did you cover Stand Your Ground"?

Answer: YES.
Zimmerman LIED in Hannity interview.

[Ruby the Liberal]

36. Look at his eyes

He knows they are going to try to put on him that Zimmy thought what he did wasn't wrong...

[NCTraveler]

37. Isn't this giving...

Isn't this giving the defense the opportunity to argue SYG without actually arguing SYG?

[uponit7771]

39. YES!!!...Good catch, the judge caught it too

[madaboutharry]

40. The professor isn't giving them what the defense wants.

[uponit7771]

38. Where is the Defense going with this?! tia

[madaboutharry]

42. They want to confuse the jury. But the judge

just told them that she will tell them what law to apply.

[avebury]

41. Did you hear Knock Knock's sigh?

[uponit7771]

43. This lawyer on the stand is good, he's going to now explani "imperfect" self defense

[chelsea0011]

48. "Disproportionate"..... Cuts both ways. Defense wants us to believe it only

Cuts for Zimmerman.

[RGR375]

56. Well now

Another fine witness for the defense. Zimmerman walks in the end.

[noiretextatique]

184. keep dreaming

another zimmerman lied exposed...this is great for the prosecution.

[panAmerican]

44. Alexis Carter - JAG prosecutor and eye candy

Sorry, I know this is straying from the topic, but does any other woman in this forum notice those eyes and lips? yum.

[Ninga]

45. I have a daughter I would like him to meet..

[riverwalker]

46. oh yeah

nice smile....
I like listening to prosecutor John Guy too, he sounds just like Kevin Costner.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

50. I want John Guy to randomly ask, "Hey dad, wanna have a catch?"

Just in the middle of trial.

Just to throw people off.

And make them bawl their eyes out.

[panAmerican]

54. You're right! John Guy has a soothing, calming kind of voice

[madaboutharry]

47. He is very cute....

[Tommy_Carcetti]

49. While on the topic.....

Yesterday's finger prints expert, who testified for all of 2 minutes, was pretty cute as well.

[Ninga]

51. "Disparpoetionate deadly force, like a gun shot" says therofessor..

[uponit7771]

59. the professor....we've come a long way from the first day of the trial

[HockeyMom]

52. Force meeting force

Nice that this was talked about. Applies to SYG in Florida too. Many people don't realize this. A gun against a fist is unequal (imperfect as was called) force.

[GreenStormCloud]

61. That isn't the way disproportiante force is applied in self-defense law.

I have a Texas Concealed Handgun License and rountinely carry concealed everywhere I go, unless illegal to do so. I am also a senior citizen with a modest disability. If I should be attacked by a healthy, young, male mugger, I would not be able to adequately defend myself without my gun. The mugger enjoys a strong force advantage over me. Because he is the attacker, and because I have no idea of the amount of harm he intends to inflict upon me, and because he has to ability to do that harm, I have the legal right to defend myself using my gun. That is the way portionality of force is determined.

None of what I have just said is in defense of Zimmerman. I am explaining how proportionality of force works. Zimmerman appears to have instigated the confrontation which muddies up who was the agressor, hence the trial.

[Voice for Peace]

62. I think Zimmerman had only one hand to "defend" himself

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 01:38 PM - Edit history (1)

because his other was on the gun the whole time, my opinion.

[Just Saying]

72. The same could be said for Trayvon's right to defend himself.

He had a guy following him and he didn't know what harm he intended to inflict. He may even have known that Zimmerman was armed. Didn't he have the right to fight for his life?

I dont think your example applies here since I don't see Zimmerman as outmatched.

It's really poor law if we allow people to get into altercations and then use deadly force if they are losing. It appears that these laws need to be reviewed and rewritten. We shouldn't be giving gun owners license to kill at their discretion.

[GreenStormCloud]

78. Not the way it works.

If the guy that starts the fight attempts to retreat or otherwise tries to quit, then you can't keep on fighting. If you do then you become the agressor and he gets to defend as needed.

You don't get to hit someone for merely following you. If you do, then you have become the agressor.

You don't get to sit on someone and keep hitting them. At that point the person on bottom gets to defend as needed.

Zimmerman was a fat guy going up against a fit football player. Fat guys don't do well in fights.

[Just Saying]

89. Total bs

Zimmerman was a bit overweight which gave home a 40 pound weight advantage on Trayvon. He also worked out regularly in a MMA gym. Trayvon was a skinny little twig! He had no real disadvantage and add to it he was armed and Trayvon would be able to fight back. Your bias is showing.

This is exactly what I'm talking about! You're making excuses why a grown man trained to fight and armed had the right to go after a kid with whatever force he chooses.

We need to make gun laws tougher. It's clear to me that gun owners have way too much power with these laws and they pro e to me every day that they don't deserve it.

[GreenStormCloud]

97. Check out the U.S. Army height/weight/age standards.

I have repeated posted that I think Z is guilty of manslaughter, so I am not a defender of his. But I do defend facts.

Here are the military's standards. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/army/l/blmaleweight.htm

Z, age 28, 68 inches, max weight 184lbs. He was 200 lbs. He was fat. All the MMA he ever did was just with the punching bag. Never did get into a ring.

TM, age 17, 71 inches, weight standard 136 to 184 lbs.

Z was a fat guy going up against a football player.

[uppityperson]

119. Zimmy was 185 lbs. Not 200. He is obese now, but did not weigh 200 Lbs at time of shooting.

[GreenStormCloud]

125. 200 lbs. See link.

Zimmerman's height is shown as 5?8? (1.73 m); and his weight at 200 lb (91 kg) on the Sanford Police Department Offense Report for February 26, 2012, the night of the shooting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

[uppityperson]

132. I was going by what was by his photo, this. Thank you.

Zimmerman's weight was shown as 185 pounds (84 kg) on his Seminole County Sheriff's Office Inmate Booking Information on April 11, 2012, the date of his arrest.[53]

[JimDandy]

217. Trayvon last played football at age 13

four years before he was murdered. He played in a community rec league with other neighborhood kids at his local park. His interests, since then, had been learning to fly planes as a student pilot.

The day of his death, Trayvon, who was called 'Slimm' by his friends, was described on his autopsy report as a narrow-framed, 5ft 10.5 in, 158 lbs 17 yr old male.

Since you keep posting what Trayvon was doing 4 years ago, let me remind you that Zimmerman was a bouncer 4 years ago. He was fired from that job, though, and at the time of Trayvon's death, he was going to college taking criminal justice classes on self-defense and stand-your-ground defense, and training 3 times a week at a local gym advertised as the best MMA fight gym in the world.

[uppityperson]

218. Thank you for taking the time to counter the claims. It gets old and I appreciate your doing it. nt

[JimDandy]

224. Justice requires the truth. Happy to do it.

[GreenStormCloud]

233. Thanks for the corrrection regarding football.

The murder charge is for the jury to decide. Looks like you are ready to decide without a trial.

[Just Saying]

240. As have you.

Zimmerman fans always pull this line out if the old bung hole when they've run out of things to say.

[GreenStormCloud]

245. I am not a Z fan. I have posted several times that I think he is guilty of manslaughter.

But I am a fan of facts. Sometimes I get my own facts wrong and I accept correction. And I have no hesitation of correcting others.

[Just Saying]

241. You rock!

[JimDandy]

242. Awe, thanks!

[ceonupe]

187. Hockey mom you obviously don't know fl law

It is clear from your comment you don't know or understand FL law.

It is not fist vs gun just that simple.

[HockeyMom]

204. The major difference in Florida

SYG is that you are not under obligation to FLEE. Force still has to meet force. That is what the testimony today with Zimmerman's College Professor was all about, and pointing out. Zimmerman is not claiming SYG in this case, only self denfese. Not the same thing in Florida. Somebody punches you in the face, you cannot pull out a gun and shoot them because your life is NOT in danger, no matter how much you think it might be. Again, the "reasonable person standard" in law applies in FLORIDA TOO. There are concepts in law which are based on simple Common Law Standards. Sorry, I am not about to write a paper here on that. I finished the degree. Zimmey didn't.

[ceonupe]

219. Wrong

Under FL law u have zero duty to retreat.

Only time u even have to disengage from the fight is if u started it. Like I said you don't know what you are talking about.


To recap in FL there is zero duty to retreat unless you started confrontation and even then being on your back with no place to escape to is often enough to prove you were attempting to feel.

[HockeyMom]

229. Fleeing is the same as retreat

Learn the "legal jargon". The same reading comprehension applies in Florida as the rest of the states.

[bravenak]

53. Handgun vs. Hands

Unequal force. The defense should have shut up. They wanted to keep this guy talking and then he said gun. That ended that.

[RGR375]

58. wrong again

The law allows for an armed individual to shoot an unarmed individual in certain circumstances. Unequal force is still legal If the person was reasonably in fear of life or great bodily harm.

[uponit7771]

60. ...and REASONABLE is a judged by Jury as Knock Knock stated in his own filibuster

[bravenak]

66. Reasonable fear.

I am reasonable. I would never follow and shoot an unarmed kid.

[RGR375]

74. I would not follow anybody

But if somebody ended up on top of me for whatever reason and was beating my head into the concrete i would sure as hell would shoot them.

[bravenak]

76. I haven't seen any proof that his head was beat into the concrete.

The physicians assistant did not say it was constant with his head being beat into the concrete. You don't get to shoot someone just because you're losing a fight. If his head was beat into the concrete , why didn't he go with the paramedics. Why no concussion? I need proof that his head was beat into the concrete.
He was itching for a fight and he got it. He lost. He killed the kid.

[RGR375]

116. The cuts on the back of his head

were not caused by the grass. If you are loosing a fight and on the ground with somebody on top of you yes you can shoot the other person if you are in your mind in reasonable fear of death or great harm. You do not actually have to sustain great harm. It just has to be reasonable that it is possible. That is the law and what the jury has to look at with zimmerman. So far the prosecution has not been able to refute that Zimmerman believed he was in reasonable fear.

[uppityperson]

118. Maybe they wrestled through those bushes Trayvon was supposedly hiding in.

So far they've shown Zimmy is a liar and a killer. They have to show a "reasonable person" would be in fear, not just a lying killer.

[bravenak]

123. The body of the victim was found nowhere near the concrete.

Meaning, if he had his head struck on the concrete, they must have moved, thereby removing the imminent threat of death as Trayvon was found on the grass. He was no longer in fear of death by concrete. That's why he said he was being smothered/suffocated by Trayvons hand, but then that means he couldn't have been the one screaming for help. Meaning, that was Trayvon screaming, since his hand was supposedly covering Mr. Zimmermans mouth.
He is not being truthful.

[GreenStormCloud]

135. Nowhere near the concrete?

TM was only a few feet away. All that was needed was for TM to jump up in surpise at having been shot, take a step or two, and collapse. It takes a few seconds to die from a heart shot. It isn't instant like on TV.

[bravenak]

139. Jump up in surprise and take a few steps?

Not when zimmerman said he got on top of him and held his arms out. Did he say the victim got up and took a few steps? I sure didn't hear that from any of the witnesses. I heard only one person got up. George Zimmerman. Do you think he moved the body from the concrete to the grass? A few feet is a lot when you've been shot through the heart and lungs. Especially when the shooter himself says he held the victim arms out and held him down.

[uppityperson]

156. Well, hell. Trayvon then managed to tuck his arms back under his body by the time others got there

He was quite something. Shot through the heart and lungs. Jumps up. Says "oh gosh, you got me, you got it, you got me". Zimmy pushes T back down, spreads T's arms and straddles him with his hand on T's back. Trayvon somehow manages to get his arms away from Z and tucks them back under his body to finally die.

Good lord. Faced with a skittle bearing monster like that, Z was perfectly justified in shooting him!!!!111111

Extreme

[bravenak]

169. This goes back to that wonderful post saying " Trayvon should have just dodged the bullet"

I mean this kid was amazing, the next Spider-Man! Don't forget after he jumped up he moved to the grass, so that nobody would know he was banging Zimmermans head into the concrete. Covering his tracks even in the throes of death.

[GreenStormCloud]

247. Dr. Bao has just testified that TM was alive for 1 to 10 minutes after he was shot.

Dr. Bao was the medical examiner who did the autopsy. Even one minute is adequate time for TM to jump up take a couple of steps and collapse. Plenty of time to pull his hands back under him after Z pulled them out.

[bravenak]

248. He also said that Trayvon couldn't move after he was shot. Nt

[frylock]

172. don't forget the part where he sez "ya got me!"

then spins on his heel and collapses to the ground (fade to black).

[noiretextatique]

178. and: "You're going to die tonight"

it seems someone has been watching too many old gangster movies

[frylock]

182. made it, ma! top of the world!

[noiretextatique]

188. right...how many 17yo kids talk like that in 2013?

NONE. yet another zimmerman lie.

[noiretextatique]

179. keep repeating that lie

no one is buying it.

[HockeyMom]

68. Ah, then you get into the reasonable person standard

What would a "reasonable person" consider to be in fear of life?

[riverwalker]

90. I read an article

that said women generally have a higher standard/criteria when it comes to self defense. I wonder what that will mean to this case.
Could it be, because that we women live our entire lives at a physical disadvantage, in a vulnerable physical/social position, we are used to it, it's part of life.
We expect that to use deadly force, it must be a very substantial threat. I don't think Z getting a punch in the nose is going to do it with 6 women on the jury.

[HockeyMom]

106. My friend the Sensi

Good example. Two young 6 foot men were following us in the subway and making lewd remarks to us. We are around 5 feet. She said to me to say nothing and keep walking. We did until one of them tried to grab her from behind. She threw him to the ground and assumed her defensive stance. They showed no weapons, and ran away.

Size and gender here. One would assume that a male of that size would have an advantage over a small woman. However, the extenuating circumstances here was that she was a Martial Arts EXPERT. A Sensi (teacher) is considered an expert, and is licensed.

My friend explained to me afterwards about the 7 deadly pressure points on the body, which she legally could not use unless her life was in danger. She could kill an attacker with a blow to those pressure points. If she had used those on that guy for just grabbing her, she could have been arrested, and at the very least, her license taken away.

I know there are women, and a lot of men, out there who think that just the thread of an attack, or rape, is enough to use a a deadly weapon, or deadly force, but that is not true.

[lumpy]

166. Martin was probably afraid for his own life as well he should have been.

Perhaps Zimmerman was in fear that Martin would secure the gun and that might have contributed to his fears. If Martin had glimpsed the gun as Zimmermn claims or struggled to get possession of the gun no doubt Zimmerman would have become very fearfull. The resident eye witness who claims the killer was on top subduing the victim at the time of the shot appears to be a more reliable witness.
There is not a doubt that Martin was terribly frightened for his life; that is most likely the reason for his frantic screaming for help. Of course Martin was in fear, he didn't know what the hell was going on or who the hell was pursuing him; little or no mentioned of how Martin was reacting to the pursuer who appeared to be stalking him. Zimmerman should have to answer to the his deadly debacle and be taken out of the public, preferably for enough time to reflect on his actions and feel some remorse and guilt.

[Voice for Peace]

55. today's link

http://www.mediaite.com/print/live-feed-george-zimmerman-trial-testimony-day-8/

(the link in your op is old and goes to jury selection video)

[displacedtexan]

67. Here's the live link I use

http://www.wftv.com/s/zimmerman-blog/

This is both the live stream and the live blog being covered by good legal analysts on WFTV. I watched the Casey Anthony trial on this channel.

[Voice for Peace]

198. thanks very much! I will check it out.

I've found a few other sites that purported to have
good legal analysis and they turned out to be
foxy if you know what I mean.

[riverwalker]

63. what the hell? n/t

[Ruby the Liberal]

64. LOL! 4 dozen people calling into the Skype connection

It actually sounds better over the speaker phone though.

[HipChick]

70. They don't have their SKYPE account setup correctly

What a mess

[HipChick]

65. SKYPE AMATEUR TIME!

[bravenak]

69. He wanted to be a prosecutor.

This has to sting.

[uponit7771]

71. Does that guy sound like Costner to you too?

[pintobean]

73. Yes, he does.

He's also much more likeable than Bernie. He should be handling the bulk of the questioning of the witnesses.

[Voice for Peace]

199. I predict he will do an excellent closing.

His opening was so compelling.. maybe this is
his strength.

[panAmerican]

77. Yup, riverwalker said the same thing earlier

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3157391

His name is John Guy.

[mzmolly]

151. Indeed he does. Not gonna hurt with the

ladies on the jury.

[warrior1]

75. is this true about the weapon

The gun had to be cocked before he shot TM?

[Ninga]

79. So says MSNBC legal analyst, Atty Bloom.

[Ninga]

81. Atty Bloom said the prosecution was to demonstrate that the gun

could not have been fired by accident.

[warrior1]

83. Well that's interesting.

[GreenStormCloud]

82. It is impossible to cock a Kel-Tec PF9.

Did you possibly mean something else?

[warrior1]

87. you'd have to tell me

I know nothing of this type of weapon.

[pokerfan]

84. No, it's double action only (DAO)

which means that the act of pulling the trigger cocks the gun and then drops the hammer.

[Ninga]

88. I thought I heard atty Bloom say that the bullet had to be loaded first into the chamber

to properly prepare for firing.

[GreenStormCloud]

100. All guns have to have that done prior to firing.

You can't shoot a chamber that doesn't have a cartridge in it. Chambering a round is part of loading a gun.

[pokerfan]

115. Right

That's called chambering a round. Pulling back the slide strips a cartridge from the magazine and places it into the chamber. Now here's the key point:

In a single action pistol, the act of racking the slide leaves the hammer cocked. Single action pistols also generally have external safeties and are designed to be carried cocked and locked.

In a double-action-only pistol, such as Zimmerman's, the act of racking the slide does NOT cock the hammer. The hammer is always down and there's an internal safety that prevents the firing pin from contacting the cartridge primer unless the trigger is pulled.

It is a very safe pistol. The prosecution's point is that it takes a very deliberate action, a long four pound trigger pull to fire the pistol.

[mzmolly]

152. I heard him cock the gun while exiting his truck on the 911

tapes. Not sure if the prosecution will speculate in this vein or not?

[Lurks Often]

235. That type of gun can not be cocked

It works as follows:
1. Insert magazine
2. Pull slide back and release, chambering the first round from the magazine as the slide closes
3. Pull trigger.

Internal safeties prevent the gun from firing until the trigger is pulled.

[mzmolly]

243. Semantics. I heard him pull the slide back

chambering the first round....

There is no "internal safety" mechanism.

[Lurks Often]

244. Not semantics

There is a very big difference between chambering a round and cocking the hammer and there is an internal safety mechanism or else the gun would fire when dropped.

It is also irreverent to the trial.

[mzmolly]

250. It is relevant.

Mark my words.

A firearms expert with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Amy Siewert, examined Zimmerman’s gun and said he had one bullet ready to fire in the chamber as well as a fully loaded magazine when he fatally shot Martin.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07/03/george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-martin-day-8

[Lurks Often]

252. Then based on your own cite, you have just proven you did not hear the slide drawn back

Zimmerman did not chamber a bullet while sitting in the truck since the magazine remained full and the model of gun Zimmerman used can NOT be cocked manually.

So what exactly did you hear again?

All your cite proved is that Zimmerman carried the firearm in the condition it was meant to be carried.

[mzmolly]

253. I heard what sounded like him, readying his gun.

What part of that confuses you?

Are you familiar with the sound of entering a clip and pulling back a slide?

Listen here >>>>>

at about 2:40 in.

[Lurks Often]

254. Very familiar with those sounds

and the sound at 2:40 didn't sound like that to me. Maybe a seatbelt being released.

Quite simply regardless of what you heard, the trial testimony and type of handgun it was, means whatever sound occurred it at 2:40 was not the sound of a firearm having the slide pulled back to chamber a round because if that was the case, there would not have been a full magazine in the gun when the shooting occurred.

[mzmolly]

255. He was out of his truck by that time.

"Zimmerman had a gun in the chamber," he (Serino) continued. "He got out of the car with the gun ready to shoot. ~ Detective Chris Serino

SOURCE - http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-guests-wonder-if-mysteriously-demoted-zimmerman-detective-will-revive-prosecutions-case/

For readers unfamiliar with the way of the gun, a full magazine would indicate that Zimmerman kept an “extra” bullet in the Kel Tec’s chamber.

In other words, Zimmerman loaded the gun, racked the slide to put a round in the chamber (reducing the number of bullets in the magazine by one), removed the magazine, put another round in the magazine, then replaced the magazine in the gun. If Zimmerman had fired two shots, the magazine would have one less cartridge/bullet than its full capacity.

SOURCE - http://www.newsrake.org/index.php?topic=11117.135

[Lurks Often]

256. Speculation

So he is out of the car, with the cellphone to his hear and chambering a round and pulling another bullet out of his pocket to put in the magazine so it is full? Seriously?

Or

there is a sound on the tape that hasn't been postively identified yet.


And even more importantly, how is relevant to what happened?

[mzmolly]

260. Uh huh.

Seriously. Ever rest a phone on your shoulder and complete a task, while engaging in conversation?

How is it relevant? That's a bizarre question.

[Lurks Often]

262. Believe what you like,

but I don't see the testimony and available evidence supporting your viewpoint.

It's a perfectly reasonable question, regardless of what either of us think Zimmerman did with the gun, it had no relevance to the shooting itself.

[mzmolly]

263. You didn't see testimony saying he had a bullet

in the chamber?

It has relevance, from a legal standpoint.

[Lurks Often]

264. Of course he had a bullet in the chamber

that is the standard way to carry a firearm that is being used for protection. There is no responsible trainer that would teach people to carry a gun with an empty chamber for protection.

What I am saying is that since both the chamber and magazine was full, I find it extremely unlikely that he worked the slide on the gun.

[mzmolly]

268. Ahhh, protection.

Against a kid with a bag of skittles. I think the term "responsible" trainer, is inaccurate in this case.

[Lurks Often]

269. My answer had nothing to do with whether the shooting was justified or not,

but to explain why the gun was carried and loaded in the manner it was.

The JURY, the people who have heard ALL of the allowable evidence, will determine whether the shooting was justified or not.

[GreenStormCloud]

266. Listen to the testimony of the firearms expert.

Fully loaded it hold 8 rounds. Immediately after the shooting he surrendered to police. The firearms expert testified that the gun had 7 rounds in it, 6 in the magazine and one in the chamber. The bullet fired into TM makes 8. Therefore, Z had the gun fully loaded.

[mzmolly]

267. We

agree on that point. He had it fully loaded, and ready to fire into the flesh of an innocent kid.

[GreenStormCloud]

258. That is the seat belt being released.

His gun was already fully loaded and ready.

[mzmolly]

259. Funny. He was long out of his automobile at that

Last edited Sun Jul 7, 2013, 01:59 PM - Edit history (1)

time.

[GreenStormCloud]

265. OK. My timeline was off. You still didn't hear the slide being racked.

That pistol, fully loaded, has seven in the mag and one in the chamber. 7+1. After firing one shot it then has 6+1.

You are saying that Z carried it with an empty chamber, 7+0, then racked the slide to put one in the chamber, now 6+1. Then he shoots TM, which makes it 5+1. But when he surrendered to the police, immediately after the shooting, his gun had 6+1. Therefore, he was carrying it fully loaded, which is the normal way to carry it.

[GreenStormCloud]

246. The testimony goes against you.

The Kel-Tec PF9 holds seven in the magazine and one in the chamber, for a total of eight rounds. The prosecution firearms/forensics expert testified that Z's gun had six in the magazine and one in the chamber when it was taken from him (total of seven). He had fired one shot, which left him with 6 in the mag and one in the chamber, plus one expended round, total 8.

If Z had started with an empty chamber he would have had a total of 7 rounds in the mag. Chambering a round would leave him with 6+1. Firing one round would leave him with 5+1=6.

Therefore, he was carrying the gun fully loaded, with one in the chamber. Therefore, nobody heard him jack a round into the chamber as there was already one in the chamber.

[mzmolly]

249. More semantics. I heard what sounded like Z getting his gun ready. Understand?

<<< Listen to that at about 6:30 in.

A firearms expert with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Amy Siewert, examined Zimmerman’s gun and said he had one bullet ready to fire in the chamber as well as a fully loaded magazine when he fatally shot Martin.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07/03/george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-martin-day-8

[GreenStormCloud]

257. His gun was already ready and needed no further preperation.

What you hear at 6:30 in the video is the gun being disassembled.

I have a Kel-Tec P3AT which is the exact same gun except it is chambered for .380 instead of 9mm. I am well familiar with how it works. I carry it daily, fully loaded magazine with one in the chamber.

[mzmolly]

261. I hope you don't shoot an innocent person,

too.

[Ruby the Liberal]

80. This forensic witness is fascinating

I never knew what all went into determining if a weapon was used in a crime. Glad he is having her explain how all of this works.

[Ninga]

85. She is very easy to understand, And I think not good for defense.

[ceonupe]

196. Actually in this case

4 of the jury people have ones at family members with guns and one has a ccw but does not active carry.

Chances are they know guns and the pros attempt to scare them based on facts of gun operation or to illicit emotional thinking prob won't go well.


While lots of people on DU know very little about guns. (Most thought you don't chamber a round until right before use and had no idea most defensive had guns over the last 20 years have been specificly designed to be carried fully loaded.

[uponit7771]

86. BAMB!!! A CONTACT SHOT!!! Meaning the Muzzles was AGAINST the fabric

[riverwalker]

99. Yet Zimmerman says

he didn't think he hit him and was surprised he was dead. ??

[uppityperson]

121. Zimmy would've been better off to say "I don't know" rather than try to make things up

[lumpy]

173. Well, what would one expect him to say, not that it truly matters.

It can't be that Martin died by someone else doing the job.

[mzmolly]

153. Yes.

[Ruby the Liberal]

91. I love this chick!

He is dancing around his language trying to be all Mr Confusion and she is rephrasing him so the jury understands.

Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

[madaboutharry]

92. She is very smart and I love how she isn't letting him lead her 'round the rosy.

[Ruby the Liberal]

95. He keeps trying to get her to express an opinion about degrees of safety

and she keeps going back to design considerations.

[Ninga]

96. Yep, one sharp cookie! Her testimony about the clothing was in my opinion damaging to

defense.

[Ninga]

93. Defense is blah blah blah, trying to distance jury from her earlier testimony - good grief

he asked her if she visited the gun factory!

[uponit7771]

94. +1

[madaboutharry]

98. Very typical questioning when you have nothing to say.

[uponit7771]

101. ah, thx...means it most likely hurt them

[GreenStormCloud]

102. Defense is doing a good job with her.

They are making sure that she testifies that the gun was touching, and only barely touching, the fabric. They are setting up to claim there was distance between the fabric and TM's skin.

[uponit7771]

103. I don't think so, they established that the shot was at arms distance at least meaning there had to

...be minimum and maximum distance since the barrol was only touching the fabric she also didn't differientiate how deep into the fabric just that if it was wrapped around the gun it would've left a different burn mark

TM was not a pillow

[Lisa D]

104. She made it clear that the gun was touching the fabric

and that it also could have been pushing into the fabric. The pattern would be the same.

[Ninga]

110. Very clearly stated.

[Ruby the Liberal]

105. How does that help the defense when Zimmerman claimed he thought the shot went wide

and he missed, reholstered, and straddled Trayvon with his arms apart?

[Ninga]

108. Doesn't.

[GreenStormCloud]

113. That he thought he missed is irrelevant to the positions.

People are highly stressed under those kind of conditions and perceptions can be mistaken. There are lots of incidents of people firing all the rounds in their gun and not remembering they fired any, of people not remembering correctly the number of rounds fired, of thinking they missed when they didn't, of thinking they hit when they missed, etc.

Read Massad Ayoob's book, "Stressfire".

[Hoyt]

122. Good point, and a damn good reason to restrict people from carrying firearms in public.

I'm sure Zimmerman -- and many others toting guns on our city streets -- read the book with the full title, "Stressfire, Vol. 1 (Gunfighting for Police: Advanced Tactics and Techniques) . Doesn't that sound like something that will protect us from the yahoo standing behind our kids at Chuck E Cheeze.

Here's some other Ayoob books for the gun cultists --

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W%2BA-luAnL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU01_AA160_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mfq2vZpPL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU01_AA160_.jpg







Zimmerman likely posed and practiced in front of a mirror often so that he could pull his gun and kill an unarmed teenager in an instant.

[uppityperson]

124. HOW did Z straddle TM and spread his arms apart, yet TM had his arms under his body?

Simple question. I understand he could easily have been confused as things happened under stress, but how is the "spread arms apart" yet they were tucked under his body explained? If it was by "confusion", then why should ANY of Z's testimony be held in ANY way accurate?

[GreenStormCloud]

131. That requires speculaton on my part.

That I see there are two major explanations plus a combination.

1. Z was confused.

2. Z straddled and pulled TM's arms out. TM was still alive, just barely. Z turned to address the neighbor that had just shown up and TM pulled his own arms back under him, then died. It takes 10 to 15 seconds to die from a heart shot, not instantly like on TV.

3. Combination of both. Z tried to pull the arms out but only got them a little way out. (Most likely.)

Z was still wrong for his actions that started the road to this tragedy. It was foreseeable as possible, even likely, and meets the definition of manslaughter.

[madaboutharry]

111. Zimmerman claimed he wasn't sure if he even the gunshot even hit Trayvon.

Zimmerman's story is a total fabrication.

[GreenStormCloud]

120. That is fairly common in self-defense shootings.

In shooting situations, people are under extreme stress. I used to know a cop who was in a shoot-out with a perp. The perp fired first and hit the cop's partner (non-fatal, he recovered fully), the cop fired three rapid shots at close range, all of them went into the ceiling. The perp fired another shot that went wild. The cop realized what he was doing, gained control of himself, and shot the perp in the heart. All of that in a few seconds that seemed like minutes.

The mind does strange things under extreme stress.

Remember the testimony of the woman who claimed she saw Z straddle TM's back and then heard him shoot him three times into TM's back? That's an example of what can happen in that kind of stress.

[Hoyt]

126. And, a good reason Zimmerman and others should not be allowed to carry in public.

[mzmolly]

154. +1

Exactly!

[uppityperson]

127. I haven't read that testimony, do you have a link to it? (Z shooting TM X3 in the back).

[GreenStormCloud]

145. Google Jane Surdyka

Normally I would find the link. I am out of time. Have to get ready for work or I will be late. Be back Friday.

[uppityperson]

147. She said she thought she heard 3 shots. Nothing about shooting into his back.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-trial-surdyka-20130626,0,3787069.story

Defense attorney Don West pressed Surdyka on inconsistencies in her testimony. Surdyka said several times she heard three pops or shots;

[GreenStormCloud]

165. She claims that she saw Z on TM's back, then heard three shots.

[lumpy]

177. Heard her testimony also; never heard her say Martin was shot in the back;

in fact she testified that the person on top was the one who got up and off the other on the ground and walked around holding his head; obviously the shooter.
Perhaps Zimmerman's nose and head injuries occured during the struggle on the ground, hence holding his head while pacing back and forth.

[GreenStormCloud]

234. See my post #191 N/T

[hedgehog]

149. I think she said she heard three shots, not that she saw three shots into the back -

I've been wondering if there has been evidence presented that there was only one shot - the one that killed Mr. Martin.

[GreenStormCloud]

162. Correct. She does not say that the saw the shots, only heard three shots.

Yes, there was only one shot. Textimony was today by the police firearms expert.

[hedgehog]

170. Thank you , i had missed that.

Unless you listen to every minute, it's hard to get a run down of the testimony.

[GreenStormCloud]

191. Here is the testimony

Time 28:50 to 29:30

She is not able to reconcile what she claims she saw with the fact that TM was shot in the chest.

[WinkyDink]

159. So much, then, for "You got me!" Lies, lies, lies.

[lumpy]

210. By Zimmerman saying that Martin sat up and quoted (supposidly) Martins

last words uponing dying, Zimmerman wasn't even sure that he had shot Martin.
Perhaps all of Zimmerman's story wasn't fabrication, but in certain crucial parts of the it appears he put into use a helluva of a lot of fabrication.

[Ninga]

107. I am a mom, grandmother and a fair minded person. I think that already too much has been said

about guns, shooting, gun coming in close contact with clothing, this gun or that gun, pulling the trigger double action, bla blah blah

Giving the jury lots of visuals of Travon being shot at close range....

[uponit7771]

109. +1

[Ruby the Liberal]

112. Having that tiny woman effortlessly pull the trigger for them

was brilliant.

[Ninga]

114. +1

[GreenStormCloud]

117. Guns aren't designed to require heavy trigger pulls.

In fact, a heavy trigger pull makes a handgun more dangerous and it become more difficult to keep on target during a heavy trigger pull. An example of that was the recent shooting in NYC where the police hit several bystanders.

My 4'10" wife can pull the triggers on all of our guns.

[Ruby the Liberal]

129. Hey - it was the defense that kept trying to make a 4lb trigger pull

a "safety issue"...

[GreenStormCloud]

141. I don't see why they emphasized that. N/T

[CatWoman]

221. of course you wouldn't

[GreenStormCloud]

237. If you have special insight, please share it.

Otherwise, your condescending insults accomplish nothing.

[RGR375]

130. Two women on the jury

have ccw permits and i guarantee that they do not have heavy trigger pulls on their weapons. I took my daughters weapon and had a trigger job on it.

[GreenStormCloud]

137. Outstanding. I wasn't aware of that.

Neither the prosecution nor the defense will be able to spread much BS about guns then.

[riverwalker]

176. only one, the parrot lady

Juror B37

B37, first presented to the court on the second day of jury selection, Tuesday, June 11, is memorable as the woman with many pets: 3 dogs, 4 cats, a parrot, a crow with one wing, two lizards . . . it seemed almost an aside when she also mentioned two daughters. She has lived in Seminole county for 18 years, and has been married for 20. She has two children, a 26-year-old and a 24-year-old.

She was another juror with explicit disdain for the press, saying the best “use for newspapers is for the parrot’s cage, that’s a better use than reading.” When asked directly if she trusts the media, she answered firmly, “I do not.”

She recalled the protest marches in the area as “rioting.” Her recollection of the shooting is that it was an “unfortunate incident,” but that she had not formed an opinion about what happened. She further recalled that Zimmerman had been involved in a scuffle, lat at night, and a “boy of color” had been killed.
It is notable that B37 is the only juror to have previously possessed a license to carry a concealed firearm (termed a CCW, “concealed carry weapons,”in Florida), although she had allowed the license to expire and no longer carried a firearm (and apparently did so rarely if at all when she was licensed). Her husband still owns guns, however, and B37 expressed no uncertainty about her ability to use and shoot a gun, saying she has gone to the range shooting.

When questioned by the defense on final voir dire she affirmed that “I’ll just follow the law,” in evaluating the evidence and coming to a verdict.

[ChiciB1]

128. Well, While There Are Many Positive Comments For Prosecution....

Just turned to HLN channel and most are saying the prosecution witnesses are making the DEFENSE look much better.

I'm kind of into Wimbledon right now, a huge Novak fan and don't really want to see Murray advance, but he's back on target right now. However, I do like Andy.

Anyway, can anyone please tell me WHY they are giving high fives to DEFENSE??

[Ruby the Liberal]

133. Because they want you to keep watching?

[Myrina]

134. Faux was doing the same ...

.... they & CNN/HLN both have similar agendas IMHO.

Faux was on in my employer's cafeteria yesterday & just after the witnesses specifically detailed how Zimmy's injuries and what the witnesses saw of the "fight" DID NOT GEL with Defense's claim that his 'head was bashed into the pavement', during the next break the Faux bimbo was all breathlessly gasping "... Martin was repeatedly smashing Mr. Zimmerman's skull into the pavement!!"

Uh, what???

[RGR375]

146. On that note

I thought that it was funny that a retired federal judge on fox who believes that zimmerman should be convicted! Said that the judge has screwed it so bad that if he is convicted it will probably be thrown out on appeal.

[ThePhilosopher04]

136. CNN and Headline News have been catering to the Zimmerman ...

the entire time. They're cherry-picking what they want to hear that implies self-defense and ignoring glaring problems with the Zimmerman story that do not add up. While you can spin each individual testimony to jive with self-defense, the totality of the evidence, especially when common sense is applied, will show this was murder - manslaughter at the absolute very least.

[displacedtexan]

142. That's why I watch the WFTV live feed and commentary.

HLN's commercials and stupid commentary were making me crazy.

[chelsea0011]

181. I just watched CNN HL for a few minutes and was shocked to see their live

Twitter feed with people shouting for acquittal. Really?

[riverwalker]

138. after testimony that Z studied SYG

in his class, and therefore LIED on the Hannity interview, some talking head attorney on CNN said "well, sure there are some minor inconsistancies". No, he LIED. All the talking heads are pro Zimmerman, I don't know why, I don't care. Only the 6 women on the jury matter.

[RGR375]

143. not really

There is no law in Florida called stand your ground. Hard to study a law that does not exist. Stand your ground was just a nick name given when Florida modified it's laws to give people the same rights outside of their home that they had in their home. (no duty to retreat)

[riverwalker]

174. you mean like Trayvon?

or does the law only apply to gun owners? Can unarmed people people defend themselves as well or only if they pack heat?

[Voice for Peace]

200. ++

[ChiciB1]

175. Two Women On Jury Are Very "Iffy" Because

I think one of them has a son/daughter who wanted to go into or studied law enforcement, another one had stated that there had been a lot of suspicious people in and around her neighborhood from time to time. They "could" be thankful for a person who was willing to be a helpful citizen such as GZ. Crap shoot.

Maybe they will take ALL testimony into consideration and his aggressiveness, because there are such things as BAD cops. Depends on their mind set.

My personal story...

Maybe 2 1/2 years ago, very close to where I live there was a young 20 year old male shot by an off-duty officer. We are very good friends of the and girlfriend and the family of this young kid. My grandson went to school with him too. They were coming home (walking) and yes they had been drinking and were making noise. It was around 11:30/12:00 AM and they made the mistake of deciding to play the game "ding-dong-bell." You run up to a door, ring the bell, run and hide. What many would consider a silly prank. Really depends on how any given person sees it. When I was younger we did all kinds of silly stuff, today many may feel threatened. But a 911 call is almost always available.

UNFORTUNATELY, they rang the bell of an off-duty officer who got mad, grabbed his gun, NOT a taser, or anything else less threatening. They take their cruisers home here so his vehicle was in his driveway. He puts flip-flops on, runs down the street after the 2 kids, gets the one on the ground and shot him in the head. He died instantly. I think the officer said he was resisting arrest. He was off duty though and not in uniform. The kids did live on the same street about 3 houses down. So just going home actually.

Sure, the prank wasn't the smartest thing to do, but did it really rise to the level that one of them should be shot and killed?? And if he felt a need to shoot, why not some place other than the head?

Officer got a suspension WITH pay for 2 weeks I think, then that was the end of it. There was local outrage, high school kids held marches and all the rest, but to this day I'm told the officer has never faced any charges. Don't know if he quit the force, could have because so many people were outraged. He also owned a small local bar or something of that sort. AND, he didn't have the cleanest record when internal affairs reports were released.

This is Florida. Officer stated he was mad because it could have woken his baby up and I "think" SYG was used here too. The officer's name was Hernandez or Fernandez, I could be wrong, but the kids name was Tyler Spann. Just saw the girlfriend a couple of weeks ago and she said the family filed a civil lawsuit against him but wasn't sure of the status. OH, if it matters to anyone, Tyler was white.

Now that I think of it, I can google it to check what's happening. But this is just another case that I find excessive force and/or attitude came into play.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

183. Here you go:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20100417/ARTICLE/4171047

A similar story, also out of Florida:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2003-10-28/news/0310280175_1_mark-drewes-jay-steven-levin-door

[ChiciB1]

226. Yep, That's The One...

I sure screwed up on Verdoni's name though. But the story is true. And his friend said it NEVER happened that way.

Having known about this one personally, I've worried from the get go about this trial. And I must add something else. I, as so many others following this case are very outraged, but it really has another "feel" when you know the deceased, or you're close to someone who actually lived it from day one. There are stages you go through as it unfolds that keep your head spinning. I won't elaborate, but when you finally hit that brick wall that says you MUST stop, you can do no more, you get to go on yet another emotional trip. This trip leaves you feeling helpless, hopeless and full of fury.

Whenever I see TM's parents my stomach knots up because of that "after feeling!" With all my heart I want them to at least have some JUSTICE. Nothing will bring him back, the child they loved so fervently. But getting a cold hard slap in your face when you know that a legal system was able to twist facts into a pretzel, that made their son "the perp" isn't something many of us can imagine. I only witnessed the terrible grief of those closest to him, I didn't have to wear it as a shroud from then on.

Sorry, kind of got carried away. I just have such a visceral reaction when I look at GZ, who appears not to fully understand a certain reality TM'z parents are going through.

JMHO

[ChiciB1]

227. Sorry, Forgot To Mention The Other Case.

So, so similar. So young to learn such harsh lessons. Words aren't enough.

[HockeyMom]

216. I was fought over in Voir Dire

Negligence Case. Parents of Special Needs child, who was hurt on the playground, sued the school district because of the actions of her Special Needs TA. First, I have a Paralegal Degree. Second, I was employed as a Special Needs TA for a public school district. Third, I have two Special Needs children.

As the Clerk said to me when she saw my profile, "Oh, man." "This is going to to LONG". Yes, it was. I knew fully well how to get disqualified from service, but that would have meant lying which I couldn't do on many levels. I was interviewed back and forth. Endless. This was a civil suit, not even criminal.

The Plaintiffs Attorney (Special Needs child's parents) wanted me on the jury. The Defense (School District) Attorney didn't. I suppose I "knew too much" for the Defense? The Defense Attorney GLARED at me every time he saw me. Whatever. Although I knew fully well what SHOULD have been done, without hearing testimony, I couldn't say what WAS done. Based on that, I could not make any assumptions based solely on my occupation, as a mother, or my degree.

I was sat by the Plaintiffs, but it was settled out of court. Thank you, thank you!

[ChiciB1]

228. So The Reality Really Is...

We are seeing a tiny snippet of what goes on all the time. GZ & his family have already filed a lawsuit against NBC and if they win that, they get to "keep on smilin!"

Glad to hear that they did get a settlement at the very least. Bless you and your children.

[RGR375]

140. Because in a nut shell

The law professor they had on the stand gave very good testimony on Florida's self defense law. Even on florida statute 776.041 use of force by aggressor. If the jury goes by the law zimmerman walks.

[riverwalker]

144. if this is the law

Zimmerman didn't exhaust every reasonable means. He reached for his gun within seconds. If he had, then Trayvon would have bruises etc.

2011 Florida Statutes

776.041?Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1)?Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2)?Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)?Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or(b)?In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

[Duer 157099]

148. It was over at "Initially provokes"

But ok yeah, even if you let that one slip, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that GZ "exhausted every reasonable means to escape" ESPECIALLY when you look at the photos of his hand taken at the police station. Not even a broken fingernail.

[riverwalker]

195. not a bruise, not a scratch

nothing. That's an amazing photo.

[RGR375]

232. Zimmerman was on the ground

Can't get up and run away when you are pinned to the ground at that point he had no more means to exhaust.

[Ruby the Liberal]

150. Which is moot

The judge specifically told the jurors to "not bother" (paraphrasing) with the back and forth between the Captain and Attorney Knock-Knock because she would give them exact instructions on applying the law before they go to adjudicate.

[chelsea0011]

186. Walks? You have to believe he was in so much of a struggle that he feared for his

life and a jury finds it reasonable. There is no evidence of that yet and probably won't be unless the defense has something. And a jury will be hard pressed to find self defense without Zimmerman taking the stand. And they will hold it against him even if they ca n't.

[noiretextatique]

189. bullshit....zimmerman LIED again

you folks are ridiculous. try freerepublic.com for people as equally fact-impaired as yourself.

[mzmolly]

155. Consider the source.

The early programming on HLN has been pro Zimmerman, all along.

[displacedtexan]

160. Their recreation video has TM's clothing all wrong.

Right off the bat, they're blatantly distorting the facts.

And no one questions why GZ didn't know the damned street names (there are 3).

And when GZ says he drove past TM, then says, "He's walking toward me now," well, DUH! He was on his way home, and you put yourself in his path, Asswipe.

There's so much wrong with HLN's coverage that just makes me want to scream.

[noiretextatique]

180. that's the same stupid meme some keep posting here

it is laughable, pathetic, and desperate.

[Ruby the Liberal]

157. The judge has about had it with the defense arguing with her

They are setting up the appeal.

[WinkyDink]

163. That won't go anywhere. No trial has to be extended on the Defense's request.

[Ruby the Liberal]

171. Thats good to know.

It seems like they are racking up lists of denied requests for accommodation. Seems they blew off a large chunk of folks who were listed as potential witnesses in discovery.

[WinkyDink]

158. SHUT HIM UP, JUDGE. You have SAID the subject is OVER.

[Ninga]

161. Defense isn't prepared?

[riverwalker]

168. too busy giving interviews

on Anderson Cooper

[uponit7771]

164. Here's the good ish ....

[riverwalker]

167. Judge: talk to the hand. n/t

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

185. Zimmerman's lies about knowing full well how the STG law works

reminds me and I don't have a link,about a former co-worker of Zimmerman's description of Zimmy.If I recall correctly the two worked at a car dealership and Zimmy was a prankster who tried to curb his competition by making a co-worker look like a bad guy.

The c0-worker of Zimmerman's described him as two faced lying sack of shit who will say anything to support his lies.
The guy essentially give a description of a narcissistic sociopath.
He believed that based on his experiences with Zimmerman that Zimmerman will probably get away with the crime. The article was published early on .

The description of Zimmerman actually fits the investigating cops two sided view of Zimmerman's story- he's either a very good lier or he's telling the truth. Same cop that testified the other day who's bottom line rec. was charge him with manslaughter.
That bottom line means more than you think.

The fact that Zimmerman knew full well how the STG law works than lied about it seems to support the notion that Zimmerman fabricated a story that he thought was full proof-,
I want to add to that ,-that if he is a sociopath and I think he is, than Zimmerman most likely figured nobody of authority would look into his course studies in attempt to get an angle on his mind set. you know police agencies don't always share information -,he may have figured that they wouldn't have any reason to conduct a full investigation of the shooting because he thought his story was full proof. Little did he know national outrage and massive media coverage would soon be on his trail.

It is always the unforeseeable- things that happen that they cannot see as a possible obstacle to either lie over or groom over as it occurs.Socio's are groomers.

Zimmerman's lies about the co-worker and his sick twisted need to destroy the man were all told to management at the car dealership he worked for.

Again Zimmerman was described as a two faced balded faced lier on a mission.
Here's the catch-the co-worker went on to say ,he always gets away with it.
Zimmerman alway gets away with it.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

190. just a question here.. What is the difference whether zimmy knew about the SYG laws or not, besides

he said he didn't know.


lets say he knew, what would that mean besides he is a liar?

[WinkyDink]

193. Uh....read your last four words.

[uponit7771]

194. That he knew what to say to the police to seem innocent, goes against Serinos comments about him

...to some degree because if Z knew what to say of course he would seem credible

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

197. Well that's easy,

Where do the lies begin and where do those lies end?


Do you try to look in between those lies or read in between the lines of those lies in effort to find the truth about what one is really saying or stating ?

When you are trying to catch a criminal you do,but if one tells or is telling the truth-than the truth is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

What it looks is Zimmerman prepped himself and if that is true than Zimmerman prepped himself long before he shot Travon Martin.

But that is just an opinion -.

[noiretextatique]

192. let's hope he doesn't get away with it this time

it's increasing crystal clear that zimmerman is a sociopath who is incapable of remorse, and a pathological liar. IF he had just told the truth and accepted responsibility for what he did...but it is also clear that his is not capable of telling the truth. i had an acquaintance like that...she would lie about what she had for breakfast.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

201. What to make of the DNA evidence here?

Since this isn't a whodunit and that Zimmerman killed Trayvon is not in dispute, obviously DNA isn't going to play the same role as in cases where the defendant's role as perpetrator is in question.

That said, I'm sure there's some relevance of the DNA evidence as it relates to the respective parties' theories of how events took place. Just wondering if anyone here can summarize how the DNA evidence may be played as it relates to the parties here.

[riverwalker]

202. No Zimmerman DNA under Trayvons fingernails

only half listening and trying to pack for 4th, but I did hear that. The human skull weighs 11-12 pounds, to lift Z's head and "bash repeatedly" would surely leave some residue on Trayvon's fingernails.

[Ruby the Liberal]

203. If I understood correctly, the only place Trayvon's blood was on Zimmerman

was his right cuff and the front right shoulder.

If Trayvon had him pinned down - wouldn't he have had more blood on him from shooting Trayvon in the chest?

[csziggy]

251. Over half Trayvon's blood was in his pleural cavities

Collapsing his lungs. He had one very small hole in his chest. His heart stopped beating immediately. There was about 2700 milliters of blood between the two pleural cavities (human body holds about 5 liters - 5000 milliliters).

There wasn't even much blood on Trayvon's sweat shirt.

My husband's comment about the locations of Trayvon's blood on Zimmerman - He got some on his cuff when he pushed Trayvon off or jumped on the dying teenager to "subdue" him. He was still holding his gun in his left hand, reached up to grab or check his head, transferring blood to high right shoulder.

One of the witnesses I don't think was called at trial because she made public appearances with Benjamin Crump said she saw Zimmerman walking back and forth grabbing his head in sort of a "What the hell did I just do?" attitude. My husband has thought for a year that Zimmy may have bashed himself in the head with the gun when he did that.

Zimmerman also had a bit of Trayvon's blood on the back of his jacket, probably from when he was handcuffed behind his back.

[mzmolly]

205. 1. No DNA from Zimmy on TM's hands -

which means holding Z down, suffocating and pounding his head, after a punch to the face, is not supported by the DNA evidence. DNA can be found in blood, saliva, mucus etc.

2. No DNA from TM on the gun, which means there is no DNA evidence to support a struggle for the gun.

3. DNA from GZ on TM's lower hooded shirt, = GZ perhaps tackling TM at some point?

4. TM had his own DNA on his hands, which means it's not likely the rain washed away all of Z's DNA, that should be on TM's hands if GZ's account is credible.

I didn't catch all of the DNA analysis, but that's what I gathered in the portion that I watched.

[riverwalker]

206. #4 excellent point

4. TM had his own DNA on his hands, which means it's not likely the rain washed away all of Z's DNA, that should be on TM's hands if GZ's account is credible.

[Duer 157099]

225. Not that I disagree, but how do you wash your own DNA away from your own hands?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

207. Thanks. nt

[mzmolly]

211. YW. Just my understanding based upon a brief

observation of some of the DNA evidence. I wasn't able to pay very close attention, unfortunately.

[Voice for Peace]

214. and none on the cuffs which I think is especially significant

[mzmolly]

215. Yes. Excellent point, I forgot to include.

[WinkyDink]

208. So WHY did the DNA expert just VOLUNTEER that evidence might have been stored incorrectly??? FGSake.

Just answer the questions, Bud.

[Duer 157099]

209. If state plans to finish today, does that mean we don't hear autopsy report?

Or is that scheduled for today? Or not at all?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

212. It might be stipulated to.

No need to authenticate it with a witness.


Just a guess.

[voteearlyvoteoften]

213. Regarding Zimmermans weight

His doctor Lindzee teatified that Z was 5'7"
and 205 when she examined him. That was soon after the killing . So Sanford PD scale is off by 20 LBs??????

[Nevernose]

220. Related: I can explain the weight gain since (w/o jokes!)

He was on prescription speed at the time he killed Trayvon. I'm sure his attorneys discouraged its continued use.

[targetpractice]

222. Really, what was he prescribed?

Interested to know where you learned that.

He's on some anti-depressants now (don't know which ones), but they can cause increased appetite.

[Nevernose]

223. Your basic adderall prescription.

And that one anti-seizure drug that psychiatrists commonly give to non-epileptics that are on meds that make it difficult to fall asleep. It starts with a T

[s-cubed]

230. Tegretol. Don't know if that is what Z was on, but fits your description. (I take it). nt

[Nevernose]

231. You're right, but I was wrong

That's the drug I was thinking of, but the drug Zimmerman was on was trazadone (plus the aforementioned adderall). A close relative of mine has taken both T drugs at one point.

[targetpractice]

239. Not Trazadone, but Temazepam according to this...

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-prescription-drugs-george-zimmerman-was-taking-when-he-killed-trayvon-martin

I don't know anything about that particular drug.

Whatever the medication, finding the correct dosages for any psychotropic medications is very tricky... From my own experiences, I don't think folks taking certain medications (e.g. Ambien) should be allowed to carry fully-loaded guns. These meds really do affect state-of-mind, executive decision-making, and risk taking.

Despite those side effects, choosing to take psych medication is a voluntary.

[displacedtexan]

236. I found this on a Zimmerman trial blog.

_______________ ¶___
| The STFU Truck ||l ""|""\__,_
| _____________|||__|__|__|]
(@)@)******(@)(@)****(@) it's time to take a ride.



*********************

Almost everyone commenting there was pro Zimmerman, and some of them even claimed that Martin "just got lucky when the rain washed all of the DNA off of him."

Seriously, are people that stupid, or are they just Pure D Mean?

[uponit7771]

238. The rain didn't wash any of the other blood off zimmermans head or nose or the gun, they're

...not thinking logically