Open Letter to Snowden/Greenwald demonizers. Please make up your mind. Which is it?

[99th_Monkey]

Would you please make up your mind which of your two claims
is true, and which isn't; because they can't BOTH be true.

1) Oh, not this again. There's absolutely "nothing new" here, it's just
Greenwald getting his panties in a wad about nothing again.

OR

2) Snowden is a traitor to his country for exposing uber-important classified
information that he should not have had access to in the first place. This is
causing huge repercussions "in the field" for intelligence agencies, etc. etc.

[Kolesar]

1. You kids don't have enough flame threads to play in? eom

[Maximumnegro]

5. They're getting scared their position

is crumbling. The more we learn, the more their hero is anything but.

So much for the belief that Dems represent the 'fact-based' community.

Obama brushed off the whole thing this morning. That says tons.

[sabrina 1]

61. The more we learn, the more we realize that not prosecuting the war criminals was an historical

blunder of mammoth proportions. The left was right again, not prosecuting them meant owning their criminal policies. And in return, what did this President get? We the people got more of the criminal Bush policies, and the Democrats got nothing but obstruction and threats of Impeachment etc.

Any good strategist knows that if you do not take the offensive you will end up on the defensive. It has been painful for those of us who spent eight, long years attacking Bush policies, to have Republicans like Ari Fleischer and Dick Cheney and Peter King thumb their noses AT US, and use the person we chose to change all of this, to mock Democrats with. All of them have publicly endorsed his embrace of Bush policies.

I am just disgusted, mostly with myself for fighting so hard for those who will not fight for us.

[Whisp]

2. The process is not new, the information very well might be. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Now they will move n to a four star general

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023114411

Just breaking

[OilemFirchen]

60. And our resident champion of all that is good and holy...

will go balls-to-the-wall to defend this cretin because:

a) Though it's not, it looks like a point against her cyber-adversaries. The game is the thing, after all.
b) If viewed sideways and squinting, it might appeal to Obama-haters, of which she really, really isn't one, promise.
c) Somebody (like me) will say something nasty, and a cockroach dressed as a fairy will get his wings.

[Recursion]

4. Mostly #1, though telling China which of their computers we've hacked goes into #2 territory

I'm sure there are implementation details that the NSA wants kept secret that can be gleaned from what he leaked, but so far everything's shaken out to be what we thought: the NSA monitors patterns of communication and after seeing something it doesn't like investigates further per a specific warrant.

[WillyT]

6. It's A Partisan Vs. Patriot Thing...

Patriots care about the country.

Partisans care about their party.

[baldguy]

7. YOU. DO. NOT. GET. IT!

We've known about this program since 2006. There's nothing new there!

What's different is Snowden taking all that data, HOW it's gathered & from who, PLUS all the other shit he claims to have AND HANDING OVER TO THE RUSSIANS & THE CHINESE!!!

When are you going to get a clue & realize the world isn't as black & white as Ron Paul would have you believe? Hopefully one of the reasons Snowden has shut up lately if that he has.

Isn't being able to deal with complexity a hallmark of liberalism?

Snowden's sycophants are clueless.

[99th_Monkey]

16. This has nothing to do with Ron Red-herring-of-the-week Paul.

Talk about clueless.

[L0oniX]

25. Imagine what a DU member who is a cop, military, SS, CIA, FBI, NSA plant would be doing and saying.

Now align that with the responses you have been reading everywhere. Agent Mike is luv'n this shit.

[Maximumnegro]

30. Nice strawman, looks freshly cut

and farm-fresh cause you seem to have ignored the rest of his points altogether.

[marions ghost]

17. A lot is new

and the NSA systems launches planned for 2014 will tighten the gathering abilities even more.

Because of Snowden we can now see the whole scope and intent of the master plan. It reeks.

Prism and these various programs touch every sector of society you want to name, and the pols buying into it are misguided, if not actually complicit.

The scope of this scheme is chilling.

[baldguy]

19. And now Russia and China have all of it.

Thanks to Ed Snowden.

[marions ghost]

21. I am less worried about Russia and China

than I am about our own government. Always thought our govt (at least) was better than Russia and China.
Now I see we're as bad or worse. This is a hard realization.

Apparently the NSA really is intent on controlling the world's data. This secret was kept from the American people. But a lot of us are rightly outraged at the arrogance, the waste of our tax dollars, the betrayal of public trust, the potential for abuse, the insult and injury to our international relations.

Do you not see that what has been done to our best relationships around the world --by the fact of this grossly excessive data mining--is what we should be appalled about? The Chinese and Russians are always suspicious of us with good reason, and they already know a lot. But the countries that rely on us and call us friends--we have damaged those relationships as well.

Thank you, Ed Snowden. For enlightening the American people and the world. Maybe somehow we can stop this.

[baldguy]

22. For you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3114963

[marions ghost]

29. I don't get into the Libertarian vs Liberal thing

it's divisive & stupid. Labeling and name-calling with no substance behind it.

You didn't respond to what I wrote.

OK.

[baldguy]

32. "I don't get into the Libertarian vs Liberal thing"

Of course not.

[marions ghost]

45. Thank you for your reply

For you:

Some of these people look like Libertarians!--check em out

[treestar]

28. That first statement is utterly appalling

What naiveté. I've never been a rah-rah patriot, but that statement offends my sense of patriotism.

[randome]

34. What does it do for your sense of logic?

The same, I gather. It's so obvious America is worse than anyplace else.
:do-I-need-the-sarcasm-thingie:

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[marions ghost]

39. truth always hurts

--sorry to be the bearer of an inconvenient truth.

What our govt is doing in our name in this (as Chris Hayes just said on MSNBC) is what should offend your, & all of our, sense of patriotism.

It is an appalling breach of public trust.

I am deeply ashamed of what my country has done in this matter. Words can hardly express it. But if some of what I feel touched you, even negatively, then it's all good. This horror is out in the open and this discussion is going on. I am thankful for that at least.

Thanks for your reply.

[treestar]

67. No, it is not the truth

Russia or China would certainly do much worse by its citizens than the US any day.

[marions ghost]

71. OK stick with that & I'll stick with

what I said. It's all good. This discussion is overdue and important. Read my post 69 below.

peace

[99th_Monkey]

51. Nicely put. "We're supposed to be the 'good guys', so we should act like it." nt

[marions ghost]

55. Thanks & thanks for your OP

How would these rabid defenders of the NSA feel if it was Russia or China doing this???

I can hear all the righteous indignation now....

It is hypocritical to act like we are better than any totalitarian country you want to name. Can't people see that this is the Big Fail of this whole scheme?

In our zeal to protect ourselves from "them" -- we have become them.

[99th_Monkey]

56. You'll know the "terrorists" have won

when all our supposedly "inalienable" rights are gone forever.

Who's side is NSA on anyway.

[OilemFirchen]

64. Don't hold back, friend.

Why no go full-tilt and label those of us who disagree with you Nazis?

You know you want to. You're right on the precipice, take the dive. I promise I wont alert, and guarantee I can get assurances from all of the like-minded posters here to do likewise.

[marions ghost]

69. I don't see any nazis here

I see good-hearted sincere Dem/progressive friends, who are not at the point of accepting that what our government is doing in secret is wrong and dangerous. Not yet willing to accept that if we continue this we could easily end up like hardline China and troubled Russia--with way too much power and control lodged in the hands of the government and not the people. With what we have learned about the NSA we find that America wants to surveille the world. We have crossed a line that's bad for US people & democracy in general, bad for US business ultimately, and bad for our international relations. I want America to be a world good guy. Not this bully who wants to control everything and snoop on everybody. Reminds me of my awful stepfather. Way too controlling. America is at a crossroads. We need to lose some of our excess loftiness and take a hard look at where we want this country to go. The China/Russia direction ain't attractive, nope. But we veer that way alarmingly with corporate control of our govt and this massive electronic invasion of privacy.

Looks like you have a lot of power if you can get "guaranteed assurances" from people around here to support you. I'm not much of a fighter so I won't take you up on your challenge. But hey, don't take this so personally. Check the urge to ratchet up the venom. People are going to differ in a hot button situation like this. It is a GOOD, long overdue discussion. So can we be friends in the neighborhood? Won't you be my neighbor?
Peace & donuts.

[OilemFirchen]

63. That is fucking despicable.

[marions ghost]

70. We're on the same side, I'm sure

&feature=player_embedded#at=353

[DirkGently]

24. Does the ACLU "NOT. GET. IT RAWWWR!" either?

NEW YORK – The American Civil Liberties Union and the New York Civil Liberties Union today filed a constitutional challenge to a surveillance program under which the National Security Agency vacuums up information about every phone call placed within, from, or to the United States. The lawsuit argues that the program violates the First Amendment rights of free speech and association as well as the right of privacy protected by the Fourth Amendment. The complaint also charges that the dragnet program exceeds the authority that Congress provided through the Patriot Act.

"This dragnet program is surely one of the largest surveillance efforts ever launched by a democratic government against its own citizens," said Jameel Jaffer, ACLU deputy legal director. "It is the equivalent of requiring every American to file a daily report with the government of every location they visited, every person they talked to on the phone, the time of each call, and the length of every conversation. The program goes far beyond even the permissive limits set by the Patriot Act and represents a gross infringement of the freedom of association and the right to privacy."

The ACLU is a customer of Verizon Business Network Services, which was the recipient of a secret FISA Court order published by The Guardian last week. The order required the company to "turn over on 'an ongoing daily basis' phone call details" such as who calls are placed to and from, and when those calls are made. The lawsuit argues that the government's blanket seizure of and ability to search the ACLU's phone records compromises sensitive information about its work, undermining the organization's ability to engage in legitimate communications with clients, journalists, advocacy partners, and others.

"The crux of the government's justification for the program is the chilling logic that it can collect everyone's data now and ask questions later," said Alex Abdo, a staff attorney for the ACLU's National Security Project. "The Constitution does not permit the suspicionless surveillance of every person in the country."

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-files-lawsuit-challenging-constitutionality-nsa-phone-spying-program

Clapper didn't lie in "2006."

During a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing on March 12 of this year, Ron Wyden asked Director of National Intelligence James Clapper a simple question: “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?”

“No, sir,” Clapper shot back without a pause. “There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/350699/clappers-lie-charles-c-w-cooke

Is 2011 the same as "2006?"

This important case—all the more relevant in the wake of this week's disclosures—was triggered after Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.), a member of the Senate intelligence committee, started crying foul in 2011 about US government snooping. As a member of the intelligence committee, he had learned about domestic surveillance activity affecting American citizens that he believed was improper. He and Sen. Mark Udall (D-Colo.), another intelligence committee member, raised only vague warnings about this data collection, because they could not reveal the details of the classified program that concerned them. But in July 2012, Wyden was able to get the Office of the Director of National Intelligence to declassify two statements that he wanted to issue publicly. They were:

* On at least one occasion the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court held that some collection carried out pursuant to the Section 702 minimization procedures used by the government was unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment.

* I believe that the government's implementation of Section 702 of FISA [the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] has sometimes circumvented the spirit of the law, and on at least one occasion the FISA Court has reached this same conclusion.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/justice-department-electronic-frontier-foundation-fisa-court-opinion

Your position is in fact the one lacking in understanding complexity. Equating the entire domestic surveillance scandal with ... Ron Paul? He has nothing to do with it. He's not the point. Obama is not the point. Snowden is not the point.

There is an ongoing, expanding, massive, domestic surveillance program, which has already been determined to have violated the Constitution, and without question no further in the past than 2011.

Get it?

[baldguy]

31. The OP was about Snowden & Greenwald. Is the ACLU asking for a pardon for Snowden?

The lawsuit is about the NSA program, not Snowden's espionage.

[DirkGently]

38. Oh, so the issue IS legitimate? I thought it was all "2006?"

The issue is not about Snowden. The only attempts to make it about him come from desperately spinning apologists begging for everyone to please shut up.

No one is buying it.

[Maximumnegro]

33. As long as you don't sit out the midterms

like so many Dems seem prepared to do just like 2010 (and don't tell me they didn't because that would actually mean a WORSE scenario for 2014) I don't care what pet issue people froth over.

[DirkGently]

42. Is that what all this despicable denial is about? The FUCKING MIDTERMS?

I don't know whether the people making these heinous attempts to corrupt and derail and poo-poo the NSA spying issue are real insiders, or wanna-bes, but it really doesn't matter.

Elections do not dictate issues. Issues dictate elections. It is a twisted mindset that tries to invert that fact.

Put it this way -- as long as we can have an intelligent discussion about important progressive issues, we don't care what the self-appointed political spinners are "frothing about."

Jesus fucking Christ.

[99th_Monkey]

53. That's my US Senator Wyden. woot!

Thanks for this info on the ACLU. I'm bookmarking it, as it is bound
to be useful, because apparently many DUers have developed selective
collective amnesia, about what US constitutional rights are, in the first
place, and appear to be oblivious as to why anyone should be concerned
at all that they are being "disappeared" before our lying eyes.

[marions ghost]

54. Thank you ACLU:

"This dragnet program is surely one of the largest surveillance efforts ever launched by a democratic government against its own citizens," said Jameel Jaffer, ACLU deputy legal director. "It is the equivalent of requiring every American to file a daily report with the government of every location they visited, every person they talked to on the phone, the time of each call, and the length of every conversation. The program goes far beyond even the permissive limits set by the Patriot Act and represents a gross infringement of the freedom of association and the right to privacy."

[99th_Monkey]

49. Perhaps I am oversimplifying the situation.

Admittedly, Hong Kong and Russia have complicated things, probably
for everyone, given that they are or have been "commies".

I'm curious if you also think Assange and Manning are "traitors".

[kelliekat44]

8. #2. nt

[gcomeau]

9. He did not expose the existence...

...of any illegal scandalous activity. The existence of the program was known and legally authorized.


BEING known and legally authorized removed any justification for any claim that exposing classified details about how that program is executed was some kind of righteous act of whistleblowing.

To put it in even simpler terms...


Everyone fucking knows the Pentagon is developping new stealth strike fighters. Leaking the fucking technical plans is still fucking traitorous.

Understand? Yeah... it can be, and is, BOTH of your listed points.

[frylock]

12. do you understand?

Under Article III, Section 3, of the Constitution, any person who levies war against the United States or adheres to its enemies by giving them Aid and Comfort has committed treason within the meaning of the Constitution. The term aid and comfort refers to any act that manifests a betrayal of allegiance to the United States, such as furnishing enemies with arms, troops, transportation, shelter, or classified information. If a subversive act has any tendency to weaken the power of the United States to attack or resist its enemies, aid and comfort has been given.

The Treason Clause applies only to disloyal acts committed during times of war. Acts of dis-loyalty during peacetime are not considered treasonous under the Constitution. Nor do acts of Espionage committed on behalf of an ally constitute treason. For example, julius and ethel rosenberg were convicted of espionage, in 1951, for helping the Soviet Union steal atomic secrets from the United States during World War II. The Rosenbergs were not tried for treason because the United States and the Soviet Union were allies during World War II.

[gcomeau]

14. If you prefer

...substitute "highly illegal contemptible traitorous act that should land him in a prison cell for a very very long time".

Feel all better now?

[frylock]

15. you continue to use words like "treason," "traitor," and "traitorous"

when they don't apply. treason has a very specific definition, which I've just provided for you.

[gcomeau]

20. No, I didn't. Try reading it again.

Traitorous has a broader and entirely appropriate meaning.

[baldguy]

37. They see what they want to see; read what they want to read.

Then think they're smarter than the average bear because they can come up some snarky non-sequitur, but they have no understanding of what's actually happening.

No wonder they're in love with Snowden. He's exactly the same.

[frylock]

41. they can come up some snarky non-sequitur..

"No wonder they're in love with Snowden. He's exactly the same."

[baldguy]

43. You have nothing to add & nothing to say. Thank you for proving my point.

[frylock]

44. You have nothing to add & nothing to say. Thank you for proving my point.

as opposed to this bit of wisdom:

Then think they're smarter than the average bear because they can come up some snarky non-sequitur, but they have no understanding of what's actually happening.

No wonder they're in love with Snowden. He's exactly the same.

what did you add to the conversation in that post?

[lob1]

50. Well I was just stating a fact. Sorry if facts upset you.

[randome]

18. A perfect analogy.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[lob1]

35. No one can commit treason unless we're in a war declared by congress.

The last time an American was convicted of treason was in WW2.

[gcomeau]

48. Sigh...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3114885


If that is the only response anyone can muster I consider my point made.

[randome]

10. Show. Me. The. Evidence.

Snowden claimed he could personally spy on the President's email. Makes you wonder why he didn't snatch an email to prove it to us.

Snowden claimed the NSA had 'direct access' to the world's Internet providers. All the companies involved say that's bullshit.

Snowden claimed the NSA can watch our thoughts form as we type. Any evidence they are doing that? No.

Snowden claimed the NSA is downloading the Internet on a daily basis. Any evidence? No.

Snowden said he "saw things" but he has never said what that means.

He was a Systems Administrator, not an Intelligence Analyst, so he was never in a position to "see things" in the first place. If he somehow gained access through hook or crook, why didn't he get something to support his claims?

There is a reason China didn't want him, Russia doesn't want him and now even the Wikileaks attorneys don't want him. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002310173

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[arely staircase]

11. it is "and" not "or"

we have known about the "telephony metadata" collection since '06. Therefore 1 is correct. He committed espionage in Hong Kong with his interview to the paper there, therefore 2 is also correct.

Hope that clears it up.

[Luminous Animal]

13. Give them a break. At some point they'll tighten up the talking points and they'll all be on the

same page.

[99th_Monkey]

58. Nice one !! I'm totally stealing it. nt

[Luminous Animal]

23. Even better from VastLeft

[Kolesar]

47. Chinese are smiling at you "useful idiots"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=useful%20idiots

[Luminous Animal]

52. Hahaha! Really? I don't need a "urban dictionary" definition.

I am familiar with the term and I witness the useful idiot propagandists who strive to inure us to the government's global spying schemes.

[Quantess]

65. +1

[still_one]

26. Snowden is a fucking traitor, Greenwald works for the Guardian

[treestar]

27. I dont' see the stark inconsistency of those two positions

One can think Snowden should not have taken upon himself the risk of exposing documents and still think those particular documents may not cause any harm to our security.

[99th_Monkey]

57. There's nothing incongruous to you about saying

There is "nothing new here to see" it's just Greenwald hyping a recycled story
for his own selfish professional ends.

and then also saying with a straight face in the next breath how dastardly
Snowden and Greenwald are, for exposing what you've just said is "nothing".

If those two positions seem perfectly & equally true at the same time to you,
then I think we must live on different planets.

[treestar]

68. non responsive

You've ignored what I said and repeated yourself.

[99th_Monkey]

72. So says the pot to the kettle. nt

[backscatter712]

36. Demonizer's a pretty good term, though I prefer the term scumbag.

Because the kinds of people who would obsess over spreading rumor and innuendo to smear a person's reputation are the kinds of people that I do not want to be around.

The demonizing they do is fucking disgusting.

They have zero moral character.

They have all the ethics of James O'Keefe. For all we know, at least one of them IS James O'Keefe.

Perhaps they should migrate to Red State or Breitbart - they'd find their smearing tactics more acceptable to the slime that inhabits those sites.

They're the black mold of DU: utterly toxic!

All of DU is diminished because these character assassins are allowed to ply their trade on this site.

[randome]

40. Show us the evidence that supports Snowden's claims.

You can use my list above, if you want.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[baldguy]

46. It's not character assasination - it's character definition.

Snowden isn't a victim of a smear campaign - he's the subject of an increasingly accurate portrait.

And as that definition gets fleshed out & as that portrait nears completion, they become uglier and uglier. Ed Snowden has more in common with James O'Keefe than Elie Wiesel, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jesus Christ, or any of the other REAL larger-than-life heroes he's been ludicrously compared to.

I'm sorry your hero turned out to be a RW libertarian douchebag Paulbot. But we should acknowledge that Snowden is no hero and never has been.

[bobduca]

59. Thank you

You really helped me refine my ignore list, which is reserved for hypocritical ratfuckers.

[Quantess]

62. Yes. These are the two options:

#1. Of course there is no such thing as privacy. DUH! Only naive people are shocked at this obvious, old news.

#2. There is no spying going on. Snowden and Greenwald are liars.

[creeksneakers2]

66. Two issues are being mixed up

Snowden is a traitor for revealing secrets to the Chinese, not for disclosing NSA surveillance of U.S citizens.