I just can't stop thinking about Snowden and what a jerk he is.

[sibelian]

I feel silly about myself for being drawn in. All along I thought something important was happening but now I see that it was all about Snowden and his appalling personality flaws.

I feel like I've been supporting the wrong guy in a reality TV show.

What did he do again?

[uponit7771]

1. Snowden told America that the Japanese Attacked Pearl Harbor and everyone got upset....

...and wanted to attack the Japanese.

That's about it...

A whistleblower is someone who release new information about crap that's illegal IMHO, this is Greenwald looking for a good story and NOT being illegal...

We should be more concentrated on higher scrutiny of the people who get this info

[tex-wyo-dem]

47. That's right...this guy is definitely not on the up-and-up...

and that is all that really matters. Shoot the messenger, I say!

...and screw the actual unconstitutional crap he exposed...that hardly matters.

[JDPriestly]

67. This may be "legal," but I would wager that someone will

take this to court and challenge whether it is constitutional.

I think it chills speech and association and might well be deemed quite illegal.

What's more. It could cause us trouble internationally. I read an article in Der Standard, a reputable Austrian newspaper, stating that the European Union has been trying in vain to negotiate an agreement with the US that would allow EU citizens to sue for privacy violations in US court and that would require American companies to comply with European privacy laws when operating in the EU. Angela Merkel plans to discuss this with Obama when he visits soon.

This program would permit a sitting president (or someone on his staff) to review the phone records of a political opponent or a member of Congress. That could corrupt our election process because of course the political opponent would not have the same access to the sitting president's phone records -- or e-mail.

This is Watergate times millions. It is disgusting. If true, and as I said, I haven't heard any persuasive denials thus far.

IF they are going to collect this information then we should be given access to our personal files. They should report on what they find out about us TO US.

That is my view. We should have the same information that our government has.

[sofa king]

73. Remember 2004?

Remember how in 2004 the Bush campaign always got to the cameras first to spike the guns of whatever new idea John Kerry wanted to talk about?

Remember how in years prior to that an insider bragged that they were reading the news before it was published?

Quite honestly, I've always assumed it, as the Bush Administration never turned down an easy opportunity to be criminal and malevolent. Perhaps some day we will be more certain about it.

[JDPriestly]

75. That is why all these scandal-deniers on DU amaze me.

Can't they see beyond their noses? This is a very dangerous program. The nerds who do this stuff have no concept, no clue about what the repercussions can be for our democracy. What a bunch of loonies. And the DUers in denial are something amazing too. Blaming Snowden. He may well be a jerk, but who cares? Why not focus on the important issues like what kind of problem this causes to our so-called democracy, what jokes it makes of our election process, etc.?

The reactions to this horrible news are amazing to me.

[Purveyor]

82. +1000 eom

[Whisp]

2. He thought the Iraq war was 'noble'...

need anything else be said?

Greenwad was cheering for that too, wasn't he?

[uponit7771]

4. Yeap, then tried to say he wasn't. He "trusted" the Bush admin

[sibelian]

40. Aw, man.

You mean he's the BAD GUY?

[Luminous Animal]

7. Nope. Some people say he cheered for the Iraq war but no one actually heard him do it.

[Whisp]

9. I saw a clip of Snowden last night on O'Donnell.

and yes, he did say Iraq and noble, Snowden did. Anyone who has those thoughts about that mass murder conducted by a dry drunk sociopath has got to have some granite in his head.

I'm not going looking but it's been mentioned often here often enough that Greenwad was more supportive of Bush's blunder than he was a critic of. And that he's a suckin' Rand and libertarian supporter.

[Luminous Animal]

13. I was referring specifically to Greenwald.

And yes. It was also mentioned often that Al Gore invented the internet.

[Luminous Animal]

14. FYI, Hillary supported the Iraq invasion and has never walked that support back.

and yes, he did say Iraq and noble, Snowden did. Anyone who has those thoughts about that mass murder conducted by a dry drunk sociopath has got to have some granite in his head.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022990949#post9

Copied and added to my journal for the time that Hillary runs for President.

[Whisp]

19. I'm no Hillary fan.

at all.

At least most of the others faked some sort of apology that could almost pass for one, but not her.

[Luminous Animal]

21. So, you won't vote for her if she makes it past the primaries?

[Whisp]

23. no, because I can't vote.

and don't start in on me about american politics is none of my business because I am Canadian. I've heard enough of that shit here. Reminds me of the stupidity of freedom fries.

[Luminous Animal]

28. Ooh, tetchy, ain't ya. I wouldn't make that argument and I never have but

I'm saving your statement for future reference, anyway.

[Whisp]

38. saving what? are you on the NSA payroll?

I will not be supporting a Clinton, ever. Even, heaven forbid!, she does get the Presidency I will be as respectful of her as a Democrat as so many here are toward Obama - and that means fun times for me and I should be able to do that with freedom, like it is done to Obama now.

[hamster]

51. American politics are none of your business because you're Canadian

Probably a French Canadian judging by how offended you are at the term, freedom fries. Wanna know who else is of French Canadian descent? Hillary Clinton. That's who. I really do wonder about you, ''Whisp" if that even is your real name. Let me see your birth certificate.

[Amonester]

60. I may be wrong but, in a way, your post looks like you're a bigot.

Until that birth-certificate snark, which may seem like the whole thing is some kind of satirical or something.

But if you really disdain French Canadians, you will be alerted on here. So which is which?

[hamster]

76. I may be wrong

but it seems to me that you're the bigot with all your hate against America. Alert away. I regret but having only one Hamster screen name to give to my country.

[Amonester]

79. 1. I don't hate America. 2. My sister and her three children are Americans.

I suggest you should re-read the rules once more.

[hamster]

78. AND, wouldn't you like to know? Amonester the Thought Police.

The thought police want inside of my head/the thought police are alive on this thread. - please sing to the tune of Cheap Trick's, "The Dream Police"

[Amonester]

80. Hey, I don't care what you think, but...

there are rules to follow here.... and I don't make them.

[hamster]

81. Now you're just being difficult.

I don't understand why you feel the need to cyber-bully me. First, you pick me out of all the people on this thread, verbally attack me, ask me "which is which?" and then after you ask me what I mean, you say that you don't care what I think. Just quit with all the head games, man. Or woman. Stop trying to control the thread

[JDPriestly]

68. Does that change the problem that Obama has with the NSA

out of control and the money, etc. spent on private contractors and the huge number of private contractors with top security clearances? All of those things really trouble me.

Who cares whether Snowden is right-wing?

I care about our democratic form of government which appears to be a bit of a joke right now considering that a sitting president and his staff can have ready access to so much personal information about people opposing them.

[sibelian]

10. OMG I feel so embarassed for "supporting" him now.

Oh, hang on, I never did.

So, uh, what was this story all about in the beginning? I've forgotten.

[xiamiam]

46. the story is about a massive private machine that collects data on us citizens illegally

and whose very existence and profit is reliant upon people staying stupid

[sibelian]

62. ....

[tex-wyo-dem]

49. Supported Iraq AND is a Ron Paul supporter?

Sounds more than a bit ironic.

[Whisp]

50. yeh, thought that was a bit odd too.

The crazed libertarian squawkers that bow to the idol of racist and sexist and homophobic fuckface Paul,
and like that spotlight on them don't sound too bright, so maybe that's it.

I think we will find a lot more oddities about this guy.

[JDPriestly]

70. Nothing odd about it. The one redeeming quality in

Randers and libertarian types is that they do support and want to protect civil liberties.

If the Rand, libertarian affiliations bother you, doesn't it bother you that a Democratic administration is full of those types in that they hire companies that hire a lot of the anti-social types as outside contractors and then give them the highest security clearances. That might be troubling, but just that Snowden happens to be one of them is not a problem.

I would bet that the Obama government is full of Rand followers and libertarians. Greenspan, who was re-appointed by Clinton to the Fed was a close pal of Ayn Rand and probably a libertarian. There is nothing new or shocking about this. Why are the libertarian, Rand affiliations so troubling in Greenspan.

I don't agree with Ayn Rand or libertarian types but they have been involved in Democratic administrations for a long, long time, and no one seemed to object before.

[Whisp]

72. odd = supporting the Iraq war. King Paul would not approve. n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

77. Most of the libertarians, who are now revered, were initially onboard. Libertarians =

Republicans who wanna smoke dope & get laid, per Thom Hartmann.

[Puzzledtraveller]

3. It worked, good, now go, enjoy some Victory Gin

and your ration of chocolate.

[Javaman]

5. The cut the ration of chocolate! Double Good! nt

[marions ghost]

6. Garbage

There are two journalists with excellent cred backing him up.

Shoot the messenger. Tear him apart. But he has enlightened many people to the truth.

[newfie11]

8. +1

[hlthe2b]

12. I find the absolute dichotomy re: Snowden amazing... Either he's a "hero" or a "traitor" to DUers

It feels like I am nearly alone in still withholding any conclusion as the story continues to unfold...?

[morningfog]

27. Someone can simultaneously be a hero and an asshole.

I have no problem with praising someone's actions while recognizing all the human failings they contain.

In my opinion, he is already a hero. He may also be an asshole and may be motivated by self interests. I don't really care about that. It doesn't change that I think what he did was right. The same goes for Manning, Assange and Greenwald.

[one_voice]

34. This...

Either he's a "hero" or a "traitor" to DUers

You're not alone. He's neither to me, I mean I have said 'oh that's not good, or that's old news' but I haven't come to any conclusion about the whole situation.

I said this last night:

It's semantics as far as I'm concerned. I don't think he's a hero or a traitor. I have no strong feelings one way or the other about him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2989321


I don't think we've heard everything, there's more to come. I'm not going to jump on either bandwagon, that's how you end up with broken ankles.

[marions ghost]

36. Intolerance of ambiguity

"the early selection of and maintenance of one solution in a perpetually ambiguous situation"

http://faculty.virginia.edu/haidtlab/jost.glaser.political-conservatism-as-motivated-social-cog.pdf

---------

---IMO it's an indicator of the importance of the topic to people--how much they protect their own POV in light of new and shocking information.

[arthritisR_US]

65. I'm with you in this. I am reserving any judgements

until the light of reason begins to shine. I don't foresee that happening for a few days yet, at least.

[JDPriestly]

71. Why is HE even the subject of discussion?

It's what he is saying that is the problem.

[sibelian]

15. Hey, MG...

Uh, last sentence of my OP? Hinty hinty?













(I'm not doing it. Never ever EVER as long as I live will I stoop to using that stupid sarcasm tag. It's like the "Heavy IRONY" sign that popped up on-screen during that Monty Python sketch).

[marions ghost]

30. Too real

What you wrote. It's like not knowing it's The Onion it's so real. LOL You captured the mentality we are seeing in a nutshell. (Lost on me initially at least in a glance).

OK thanks. myself

Here's a rec for penance...

[JW2020]

11. If only the Obama admin could dig up some dirt on him.

Maybe they could bug his psychiatrist's office and really find out what kind of creep he is.

[Dash87]

16. And then turn him into a cyborg to do their bidding.

Assimilate! Resistance is futile!

[sibelian]

17. Man, that would be cool.

Hey, maybe he'll turn out to be GAY? That would be awesome.

Do I sound confused?

[emulatorloo]

25. If only the evil Obama NSA apparatus had caught him before he leaked.

Because as you know they know EVERYTHING about EVERYBODY.

Sorry bro, it doesn't add up.

[JW2020]

29. I was making a comparison to Watergate

[emulatorloo]

44. I know

[G_j]

18. somehow I suspect

you forgot the sarcasm thingie...

[sibelian]

24. I point blank REFUSE to use that THING.

It is an ABOMINATION AGAINST ALL TASTE AND GOOD SENSE. And you can see from my capitalisation that my feelings on this matter are VERY STRONG.

THAT'S WHAT.

[carolinayellowdog]

45. the mindset you're satirizing is so prevalent lately...

that the satirical intention flies over people's heads-- but that too is part of the story here

[QC]

20. He is mean to ballerinas!

[sibelian]

32. Oh god. I can't even talk about that. That was the worst part.

When that story broke, my work colleagues stared at me and asked if I wa OK because I had stopped typing mid-sentence. Apparently I had turned pale and my mouth was just hanging open with a little bit of drool sliding down my jaw. Glassy-eyed. Still as Death.

I mean, how could anyone be mean to a ballerina? Just so cruel.

Everything changed in that moment.

I feel empty. Hollow.

I could go on.

(I really could, you know, for a very long time.)

[charlyvi]

22. Does being a jerk make his information any less valuable?

Does he have to be a nice guy for his information to be true?

Richard Nixon was a disgraced crook, but he still went to China. He still signed the law that created the EPA.

Woody Allen had an affair with his girlfriend's adopted daughter, whom he later married. Does that make his movies any better or worse?.

Bad guys can do good things, good guys can do bad things. People are not one dimensional.

Sorry to be preachy, but it's a pet peeve of mine.

[sibelian]

26. No.

It doesn't.

[think]

31. Sure glad you brought facts and logic to this discussion

I never knew Snowden was a jerk.

Ron Wyden and Mark Udall must be jerks as well

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/justice-department-electronic-frontier-foundation-fisa-court-opinion

[sibelian]

33. I can't help myself!

I just can't! After I supported him all that time.

Hours and hours of support.

It's a very emotional moment for me, you know? Him turning out to be such a big poopyhead after that ... thing he did, whatever it was. I can't remember.








(whistle....)

[think]

35. My appologies

my sarcasm detector isn't working this AM....

[marions ghost]

37. I had the same problem

drink this

[think]

39. LOL

On my way to grab another cup of joe as we speak....

[tblue]

74. Our govt is a bully

I don't side with bullies.

[Dragonfli]

41. It's worse than you think

You should know, according to John Yoo's third cousin's hairdresser, there is a scandal involving a litter of kittens a canvass bag and a river just below a bridge. It's bad, real bad.

He is a monster, I hope good men like John come forward and teach this monster a lesson!

[sibelian]

42. Do you know what else I heard?

I heard he touched a GOAT once.

A GOAT.

[OnyxCollie]

57. !

Goat equals comedy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Yep. Rumor has it that in the 3rd grade he leaked to his classmaes that 3x9=27

[L0oniX]

48. Just wait until he leaks pictures of Bill with Monica under the desk.

[sgtbenobo]

52. I just can't stop thinking about Snowden and what a jerk you are.

Did someone get chocolate in your peanut butter? Poor thing.

This is why we can't have nice things!

Carry on.

[reformist2]

55. LOL! The OP sounds like a 10 year old.

[sibelian]

59. But..... I'm 42....

sniff

[reformist2]

69. I'm so sorry, I see you are joking now! LOL

You're actually one of the reasonable people.

[sibelian]

58. WHY ARE YOU BEING CRUEL TO ME?!!?!?!???!???!???!?!??!??!??!?!???!???!??!?

I'm all emotionally disturbed now.

[Indi Guy]

53. I guess you haven't seen this interview...

Please watch, then comment on his motives...

[alfredo]

54. He didn't clap his hands when Tinkerbell's life was at stake.

Obscure reference for us old farts.


BTW, intelligence work fucks with your mind.

[lark]

56. Would you say the same thing if this happened when Bush was president?

So, Bush and Obama do a lot of the same things for national security, but whatever Obama does is OK and anyone who says otherwise is a "dog"?

That's what this seems like anyway.

[sibelian]

63. HE ABANDONED A BALLERINA !!1!111!!!11!1!!!!

How can you talk about NATIONAL SECURITY at a time like THIS?














(whistle....)

[Amonester]

66. This began long before cheney/bush made it worse (and blew its secrecy).

Obama did what he could to reign it back within legal boundaries, without him ending up being labeled as BEING WEAK ON TERRA by you know who...

Besides, do you really think mcLame/palin or rmoney/lyan wouldn't have made it even worse?

So what it seems like to you is a false impression.

[JDPriestly]

64. I take it that everyone who is criticizing Snowden's resume

has a perfect one themselves, has always gotten along with everyone, graduated with honors from school, passed every test, can run a mile in less than eight minutes, has low cholesterol, eats only the healthiest foods, finishes every task, keeps a clean house, pays every bill on time, always returns calls, can play a couple of musical instruments, repair computers and violins, speak five languages, leap over ponds, recite all the poems of Emily Dickinson and has a top secret or whatever security classification.

Well, bully for y'all, cause I'm not so perfect, and I know it, and I'm willing to admit it.

To me, Snowden looks like your usual nerdy misfit. The information he has appears at this point to be real. We haven't heard any big denials from the government.

As for Snowden, who really cares? It's his message that counts.

Don't shoot the messenger. Think about what his message, if true, means for our democracy. If you think about that, your anger will shift from Snowden to the NSA types who are destroying our self-government.

[vi5]

83. Me too. He hurt Dear Leader.

I shall not forgive him for that. It's too important that we respect and revere and defer to our leaders (Democratic only) and trust them. The minute people start speaking out and raising questions and bringing things like "the constitution" into it, no good can come of that. We just need to trust, stay silent, and obey. And at all costs praise our leaders (Democratic only). We don't want these leaders (Democratic only) to become demoralized and get the sads and then not be willing to lead us and tell us what to think and what to be outraged about.

I only hope our leaders (Democratic only) can forgive the treasonous among us and agree to continue to shine their beacons on light our way so we can see the way in these dark times of doubters and traitors.

[sibelian]

84. How True! How true! Whatever Muad-dib has done...

...it is not our place to question.