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Sat Jun 1, 2013, 09:31 PM

Robert F Kennedy Jr compares childhood vaccines to Nazi Death Camps...

So Bobby Kennedy was the keynote speaker at this year's anti-vaccination insanity conference (otherwise known as Autism One). A gathering point of everything wrong in the world of medicinal science (Last year's keynote was Jenny McCarthy.).

Age of Autism, the kings of anti-vaccine bullshit, hasn't made the video of the keynote public yet, but that didn't stop them from sharing thoughts from Bobby on vaccines. Unfortunately, Bobby Kennedy buys into the horrendous autism conspiracy theory to the core.

From Collide-A-Scape
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/collideascape

For a taste of what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said in his keynote address at this year’s event, let’s go to a post at the Age of Autism website, written by its managing editor, who reports:

Each of us will have our highlights from last weekend’s extraordinary Autism One gathering in Chicago, but for me it was Bobby Kennedy Jr. saying, “To my mind this is like the Nazi death camps.”


...

The enablers may not belong in Nuremburg, but they do belong in jail, Bobby said. “I would do a lot to see Paul Offit and all these good people behind bars,” he said, after listing Offit’s litany of lies and profit. Just to make sure people got the point, he returned to it in his speech. “Is it hyperbole to say they should be in jail? They should be in jail and the key should be thrown away.”


Paul Offit, for those not in the know, is, as his Wikipedia page describes him, “an American pediatrician specializing in infectious diseases and an expert on vaccines, immunology, and virology.” He is an outspoken critic of the anti-vaccine movement and an author of numerous books challenging their claims. (Amy Wallace wrote a great profile on him for Wired in 2009.)

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Tremendous amount of respect for Kennedy was just flushed away.

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Reply Robert F Kennedy Jr compares childhood vaccines to Nazi Death Camps... (Original post)
Godhumor Jun 2013 OP
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #1
Godhumor Jun 2013 #3
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #5
liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #31
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #33
liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #34
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #35
liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #37
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #38
liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #39
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #41
MADem Jun 2013 #53
Donald Ian Rankin Jun 2013 #111
Taverner Jun 2013 #201
Bay Boy Jun 2013 #6
LuvNewcastle Jun 2013 #8
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #12
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #10
arely staircase Jun 2013 #7
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #11
Warren DeMontague Jun 2013 #26
MichiganVote Jun 2013 #27
indepat Jun 2013 #90
otohara Jun 2013 #109
Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #2
Godhumor Jun 2013 #4
Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #14
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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 09:49 PM

1. My Psychological Grandmother had Polio. She could have lived a

 

much better life WITH a vaccine. I had the vaccine, my school mates had the vaccine. We also had the Whooping cough vaccine.

These things killed children in the most horrifying way imaginable. There is NO proof that the vaccines children receive contributes to Autism. None. Nada. Nothing.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 09:52 PM

3. To have someone like Kennedy corrupted just hurts

Wish he knew better because this overshadows a lot of the good he does.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 09:56 PM

5. Autism is a pretty desperate thing. Sadly, in my experiene, very good experience

 

Doctors are diagnosing this way too much. Sorry- I know that is not a popular view but its the God's honest truth. Autism is a real problem but its prevalence is WAY overstated. Unlike Polio, Chicken Pox, and Measles.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:17 PM

31. I disagree. Autism is as prevelent as they say.

My son is autistic and I know other autistic people. It is a real neurological diagnosis and it is as prevelent as they say.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #31)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:24 PM

33. It is a real diagnosis of that there is not doubt. But physicians do not account for

 

competing diagnosis. They follow a medical diagnosis procedure that does not often account for the social aspects of the problems of Autism. They do not have the resources in their offices for that. Nor do they often consult with school personnel for data to support their diagnosis. I have seen cases where they completely miss the signs and others where it is merely a figment of their imagination.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #33)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:28 PM

34. that is why a family physician who spots early warning signs will refer you to a

specialist. We were sent to the UW Autism Center, a part of the Center on Human Development and Disability. There they did an extensive test and diagnosed him on the autism spectrum.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #34)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:33 PM

35. Then your guy did the right thing. Unfortunatly others do not.

 

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:41 PM

37. How do you know they aren't?

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #37)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:43 PM

38. Because I work in this domain and you don't. Now stop with the stuff.

 

Believing that Physicians always get a diagnosis 100% correct whether its Autism or anything else is stupid.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:47 PM

39. of course they are not always correct. That does not mean there is some overdiagnosis crisis.

I've read that some think it is overdiagnosed because some kids get better overtime. People get better over time with lots of conditions. My mother in law was diagnosed with diabetes, changed what she ate and then was no longer diabetic. Does that mean she was never diabetic? No. Some kids do get better. My son has made huge leaps since his first diagnosis. His therapists at school and his special education teachers had a lot to with that. But even now after all those significant leaps he still exhibits autistic behaviors, socially, academically, and neurologically. So, just because some of these kids get better does not mean the initial diagnosis was wrong.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #39)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:57 PM

41. Begging your pardon, I did not state that there is an overdiagnosis crisis.

 

I stated that I think that, in my (professional) experience Doctors are diagnosing this too often. But since you seem to need have the last word, have at it.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 05:58 AM

53. He has a good heart, he means well, but he's not the sharpest knife, and he's easily led.

He has a fucked up voice because he messed with Mister Drugs too hard and too long. That goes to his judgment.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 07:09 PM

111. "Wrong" isn't the same as "corrupted", surely? N.T.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 01:39 PM

201. Yes, I am with you

 

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 09:57 PM

6. What if i may ask is a...

...psychological grandmother?

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Response to Bay Boy (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:03 PM

8. I'm pretty curious about that one myself.

I don't think I had one. Did I miss out on something?

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #8)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:11 PM

12. I hope not. See below.

 

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Response to Bay Boy (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:08 PM

10. :) She was a retired School Social Worker. They used to call them

 

Visiting or Social Teachers back in the 1940's. She was an amazing person. I had one Grandmother growing up who was a pretty traumatized person and could not offer me the kind of Grandparenting that children crave and need. The other maternal/paternal Grandparents were all either dead or drunk.

She adopted me. As it turns out, her life work is used in various graduate level social work courses in the State of Michigan.

Lucky me.

She died one night of heart failure. Although she never complained, she was pretty tired of living with her various health problems. She had called me in obvious distress. All she had to say was my name on the phone and I knew she was in trouble. I told her I would be right there. So I went and she was prostrate on her bed when I arrived. I set her up, got her some water so I could assess what was happening. She took a sip of water and almost immediately suffered a massive heart attack. I held her hands as she raised them up. She died. I knew now she was gone but I tried to follow thru on the obvious medical emergency.

I went to the phone and tried to dial out to 911. No response. I went across the hall to the neighbors apt. and called from there. But when you are the psychological granddaughter you know when its a lost cause. The EMT's arrive and did what they could which was nothing. She was taken to the hospital and pronounced dead.

Julia never married. She loved a WWI soldier who never returned.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 09:58 PM

7. Facist

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #7)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:11 PM

11. Oh I'm far worse than that. I am a realist in an unreal age. :)

 

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:48 PM

26. Yep. I'm old enough that I have an Aunt with Post-Polio. She's had a cane and a walker for as long

as I've known her.

The Anti-Vax crap pisses me off to no end.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:50 PM

27. Agreed. I realize that our drug companies are suspect of many things,

 

but when they get it right-its incredibly important to the lives of children and adults. So...we live with uncertainty. Nothing new in that.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:48 PM

90. My wife is now bedridden from polio in 1935. Bet she would have liked for a Salk/Sabin-type

vaccine to have been developed much earlier, as would have FDR.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 06:05 PM

109. I Got Polio One Month Before Vaccine

 

was approved.

I'd take a series of vaccines vs having Polio...it gets worse in the golden years because it comes back in the form of weakness, pain, and more pain. I also had Whopping cough once as a child.

RFK spewing nonsense - how sad.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 09:51 PM

2. So I followed links and found that RFK Jr. has a taped conversation between Offit....

and Kathleen Sebelius.

He plans on transcribing and distributing the transcript.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 09:55 PM

4. Ah yes, his infamous claim that he will rat out the government if they don't clean up vaccines

Time to face facts...the man is a fruit loop.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:14 PM

14. Not to worry. After reading this thread no one will even THINK....

about reading the transcript and giving it one SHRED of credulity.

At least out loud. Here.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #4)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 01:14 AM

44. Vaccines need to be cleaned up! - you are the fruit loop!

Why would there be a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program? There is an excise tax on each dose of vaccine for this fund.

Many people have suffered neurological injuries, anaphylactic shock, paralysis, encephalopathy, chronic arthritis, thrombocytopenic purpura according to the "Vaccine Injury Table" put out by the US Dept of Health and Human Services.

30,000 cases of adverse reactions to vaccines are reported each yr of which 13% are classified as serious -

I commend Bobby Kennedy Jr. I can just imagine how many parents have contacted his law firm with vaccine horrors. Listen to "Ring of Fire" (Mike Papantonio, Bobby Kennedy and Sam Sedar) - these 3 guys are some of the most intelligent guys on talk radio. Kennedy specializes in environmental law.

After my great grandson got a bunch of vaccines all at once, he became ill for a month and stopped babbling and talking for a yr. Luckily, he is talking up a storm now, but we became very scared. If you check online personal stories, this is not uncommon. We are very afraid to give him more vaccines. My belief is that he was given way too many at once and his little body was overloaded. Different children have different tolerances to vaccines and environmental chemicals. Mercury in kids vaccines has been replaced with aluminum, but mercury is still in flu shots. If you get a flu shot, request one that's mercury free.

Cody Unser, daughter of race car driver, Al (out here in NM) became paralyzed from the waist down at 12 yrs old after a hep b vaccine which some drs. believe triggered her to get transverse myelitis.

Read about all the teen girls that just can't stop fainting after the HPV vaccine.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #44)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:11 AM

49. There is a fund because

there is a risk with all of them. There will never be a vaccine, drug, etc. that does not cause complications for someone.

The fainting girls problem has not been tied to a vaccination. There is no proof that it's caused by that. If they can find a biological link that will be a different story. It sounds like a mass hysteria problem. Whatever it is, I hope they get to the bottom of it. Even if it's psychological and not biological, it is still a real problem.

As far as Cody Unser, you stated that SOME doctors thought the vaccination caused her condition. What is their evidence and what are the other doctors saying?

The multiple vaccinations has come up a lot. I haven't seen proof of that. It might be wise to break them up just to be sure.

I believe that these problems might be caused by so many chemicals and other things that are in the environment now. So many kids are being diagnosed with autism that something is going on. It could be that doctors recognize it more. It could also be something in the environment that triggers this problem.

I want problems with vaccinations thoroughly examined. The vaccine link has been studied many times and no link was found. If there is one, it has escaped detection and vaccinations are a convenient excuse. If there are proven problems, they must be corrected immediately. The vaccination link claim is specious and regrettable. Vaccines save millions of lives.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #44)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 08:11 AM

129. My question would be

If you want to refer to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, what fund is supposed to pay out to the families of children killed or crippled when they contracted a disease that could otherwise have been prevented by a vaccine (e.g. contracts polio)? Or if a child becomes a disease vector and infects others, who pays those victims? At least an autistic child is alive.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #44)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 11:16 AM

133. step out of the hills for a bit

 

LOL

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #44)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 01:59 PM

202. And there are people who have serious reactions to Tylenol and ibuprofin

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #4)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 05:08 PM

103. No he has a rational mind and he has the facts.

Answer these issues for me -

Why is it that when the San Francisco Chronicle, hardly a loony bin of conspiracy theories, sent its reporters out in 1999-2000 to investigate the labs where the vaccines are produced, so they could PROVE to the public that all is well within the v. industry, its reporters found such contamination, filth, bacterial and viral contamination of vaccine material etc, that the Chronicle instead ran a mini series detailing all the problems the reporters found. What does that say about the state of these laboratories? If you want the public to support vaccines, then make sure the labs re clean and that there are inspections done without pre-visit announcements!

Although veterinarians carefully train their staff not to vaccinate sick animals, the staff at many pediatrician offices insist on vaccinating children who are there on a day when they are sick, as it will "make it more convenient for the parents." There are at least three hundred credible studies showing that cancer ends up being the result of vaccinating sick mammals. People are mammals, last time I checked. So why are the vets more responsible than the people doctors?

How come in France, which has less press and media control over the vaccine issue, when there was a a nation wide campaign for people to have their flu shots, only 5 million out of eighty million people get those shots? What ar ethe french aware of that the American public is deluded about??

Actually, the American public still do refuse to get flu shots. Even though there is so much forcing the issue as mandates (In California, you cannot get AFDC or food stamps unless you have vaccinated your kids, etc,) only 50- % of all Americans get the flu shot. Legally, I can not get one - it says right on the insert that if you have had serious problems with any flu shot in the past, you cannot have the shot now. (I had Guillaume Barr, resulting from the mid 1970's swine flu shot.)

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #103)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 05:33 PM

106. sure, let me refute everything with one point.

Not one case of autism has ever been shown to be caused by childhood vaccinations. Not one.

Considering that is what his presence at autism one was about vaccines and autism, I would say that he is refuted.

Since we are not talking about flu vaccines, they are a non-issue. My son can't get the normal flu vaccine either due to an egg allergy (The vaccine is grown in embryos), though.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #106)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 06:01 PM

108. uh actually there was ONE case that made the headlines

In the last five years. The parents of a child that got autism after the MMR shot went on to collect a lot of more from the program that hands out settlements to people who have had their children hurt.

Besides which -- there is no credible proof that the autism/vaccine situation is not worrisome. The "proof" that was handed to the public about two years ago had a very faulty study. In that study, children whose vaccines contained formaldehyde as an adjuvant were compared to a group of children where the vaccines had mercury. And since formaldehyde is almost as toxic a chemical as mercury, it is a most ludicrous illogical study that means nothing. (I think, if memory serves, that radioactive material, followed by benzene, followed by mercury followed by formaledehyde, are the top most dangerous chems. i might not have them in the right order; I gleaned much of this from consulting with John Froines of the Blue Ribbon Panel on MTBE, over a decade ago.)

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #108)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 06:07 PM

110. it did not cause autism, it caused autism-like symptoms

Huge difference. The vaccine was unsafe due to a preexisting condition that was ignored.

So, nope, not one.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #110)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 07:32 PM

112. Actruallyt he pre-existing condition was a mitochondrial disorder

And the parents believe that the disorder itself might have ben caused by vaccines.

Citation: http://www.aapsonline.org/newsoftheday/0021

Goddess help us when we start havng to look at the results of when the first generation EVER of pregnant women starts in with reporting the damage done to their kids, on account of vaccinating while pregnant.

That was always a big no no, back in the day when even vaccine experts wanted us to be safe. But now it is all about profits. Many vaccines have less than six weeks to nine weeks worth of studies done.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #112)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 07:47 PM

114. well, there are deluded parents who believe vaccines caused autism in their children

Parents can believe whatever they want, but the science doesn't support it. Vaccines have no correlation with autism, period.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #114)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:05 PM

123. Oh baloney!

there are NO peer reviewed studies a person can find on the fact that if a car runs over a five year old, that five year old is injured by the car. Yet we all avoid hitting kids (If we can,) when we are out there on the roads driving.

Observation used to be one of the first steps into understanding reality. In fact, when it doesn't affect American industries, we still use observational methods to determine a product's safety. When tens of thousands of Americans told the FDA and CDC that their beloved pets were dying in droves, after eating melanine-laced pet foods made in China, our governmental agencies responded IMMEDIATELY.

Warnings were put out, IMMEDIATELY and the specific name brands were listed on websites.And no one in the government agencies said, "Oh wait, we need lots of peer reviewed studies."

But the vaccine industry rules over so many aspects of American and British life, so that when tens of thousand of parents of children who were perfectly normal and who ahd reached every developmental point exactly on time, yet once a certain vaccine or set of vaccines was concluded, these parents who watched their kids immediately and as a direct response tot he shot(s) begin to convulse, scream, become diarrhetic and having the diarrhea last for days, and then autism descended, our government suddenly adopted the "that is a mere anecdotal experience and doesn't count.'

What total BS!

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #123)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 05:28 AM

126. Uh huh...

 

But the vaccine industry rules over so many aspects of American and British life, so that when tens of thousand of parents of children who were perfectly normal and who ahd reached every developmental point exactly on time, yet once a certain vaccine or set of vaccines was concluded, these parents who watched their kids immediately and as a direct response tot he shot(s) begin to convulse, scream, become diarrhetic and having the diarrhea last for days, and then autism descended, our government suddenly adopted the "that is a mere anecdotal experience and doesn't count.'


One, prove that it happened. The problem with anecdotal evidence is this; "My son got diarrhea after he got a vaccine." or "after her vaccine, my 13 year old girl started being very argumentative and unresponsive!" As if the only thing in the world that could explain a bad case of the runs is the vaccine? As if the vaccine somehow turned a 13 year old into a snarky asshat? They're usually such doting sweethearts!

There's also the problem there's no rhyme or reason. It's all "random bad things," even from identical shots. Going into convulsions is a very different reaction to catching a case of the runs. You inject a toxin into someone, and it will have about the same effect every time. It's reliable. It's one way of diagnosing poison exposure, because toxin A has a different effect than Toxin F, and both behave consistently.

What it looks like is parents arbitrarily linking something to the vaccination. Their son has an undercooked burger, oh, the vaccine gave him the shits. The parent suddenly realizes their teenager is a teenager, oh no,the shot must have done it.



Two, prove that it was linked to the vaccine. Reactions tend to be acute and fairly immediate. There's a reason they ask if you have allergies, after all. There's also the fact that the whole point of a vaccine is to trigger your body's immune system which, let's face it, is no fucking fun at all. And yes, that can be dangerous, leading to dehydration and high fevers. Nobody's ever said that there are no risks. But...



Three, expound on what magical,substance can cause this life-shattering reaction with one injection. This is the real trouble, because there isn't one. Anti-vaccers imagine some mystical witches brew of eeeeeevil compounds that when mixed juuuuust right, have all these random bad effects... Unfortunately this isn't the case; even if it were, the results would be regular and consistent, as I've just noted. Instead you get random and weird. Again it's not that there are no risks, but if we're talking chemicals, the major concern is exposure... and one injection of something, unless it's something super-scary, just isn't going to do anything. Long term exposure is what does it, and even then, it can be years and years for it to add up. Do you have any idea how much arsenic is in your water? More than you'd be comfortable with, I assure you. And you're chucking that down your gullet with regularity, and you think an injection is going to magically transform your child into a werewolf?

Which brings me to the main problem... Most anti-vaccers are caareer idiots. And I don't say that just to be insulting, but because they fucking are. They believe in black helicopters, homeopathy, and contacting deceased pets through seances. They're what is termed "magical thinkers," where everything that happens in the world is the result of direct agency, and wild intuitive leaps are exactly as valid as studied reasoning.

All the stuff above? The random bad effects, the assumption of grand conspiracies, and the belief that a single injection of some substance can magically - yes, magically - re-engineer a personality overnight? it's bullshit, and it's bullshit nobody believed until Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy joined forces.

While you're waving your torches and pitchforks about the "vaccine industry" and how evil it is, please to realize your entire argument is based on the claims of a man who faked research and launched a media scare campaign specifically to turn the public against a competing vaccine, enabling him to (in his imagination) command that market, and a former playmate whose knowledge of medicine seems to stretch only so far as eating flintstones chewables and buying dollar store magnet bracelets.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #126)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 11:14 AM

132. I won't hear a word said against Flinstones Chewables, because they're so damn tasty.

But otherwise that was a magnficent post!

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Response to Orrex (Reply #132)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 02:56 PM

136. Thanks

 

These people are like creationists and climate change deniers.

I like to call 'em Ferngullians; like, ohmigawd, science and technology are bad and make dolphins and faeries cry! We don't need medicine, just practice laying on hands and remember to eat lots of acai! Scientists are heartless evil people who want us all to, like, be brainwashed! It's just like religion!

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #136)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 05:47 PM

147. Are you aware that in countless governmental agencies across the world

Last edited Tue Jun 4, 2013, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

If someone mentions the term "American scientists," the people at those agencies break out laughing?

After all, American scientists refuse to follow International Protocols in their set ups of studies, and then after they use a totally inappropriate method of looking at a problem, the American scientist basically is pressured into cherry pick data to give industry what it wants.

It is extremely telling that when a friend of mine was attending an international symposium of top level researchers, she heard an American scientist saying to a Japanese scientist "You people don';t have any reason in the world to state that your children should not be having vaccinations before the age of two."

Now the Japanese scientist could have offered up the totally valid answer that like many nations in the world, Japan follows the preventative principle - in other words, you avoid a product until you know it is harmless. That would have been adequate,. But instead, the Japanese scientist answered with this: "Well in just a few years we will have data showing we are right in having infants and toddlers avoid vaccines. and the data will be using infants and toddlers."

The American scientist acted appalled. But the Japanese scientist responded: "We have gotten our data from the American CDC - so it is American infants and toddlers that will show us how dangerous and risky the vaccine programs for infants and toddlers happen to be."

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #147)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 08:30 AM

151. Horseshit...

Pure anti-vax, nutbar horseshit. Typical of the CT nonsense you see on so many anti-vax loon sites.

Sid

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #147)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 05:31 PM

161. Your entire argument boils down to a Post Hoc-Ergo Propter Hoc logical fallacy

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this", is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc. It is subtly different from the fallacy cum hoc ergo propter hoc, in which two things or events occur simultaneously or the chronological ordering is insignificant or unknown, also referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation, or correlation not causation.

Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #161)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:27 PM

162. Putting that argument aside, how do you (also Godhumor, Sid) interpret these historical facts.

Again assess the HISTORICAL FACTS. Please forgive the Noam Chomsky-style delivery and overt advocacy in the final 20 seconds against ethylmercury containing multidose flu vaccines.




http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/04/her-name-was-vivian-clues-from-the-age-of-autisms-first-born-child.html

<>

Seventy years ago this month, in April 1943, a psychiatry journal called The Nervous Child published an article titled “Autistic Disturbances of Affective Contact.” Written by Leo Kanner, a Johns Hopkins child psychiatrist who is widely considered the founder of the field, it begins:

“SINCE 1938, there have come to our attention a number of children whose condition differs so markedly and uniquely from anything reported so far, that each case merits -- and, I hope, will eventually receive -- a detailed consideration of its fascinating peculiarities.” Elsewhere, he called it "a behavior pattern not known to me or anyone else theretofore."

The three of us have always found those words remarkable, coming as they did from an acknowledged authority who eight years earlier had catalogued every known childhood mental disability in his landmark 500-page book “Child Psychiatry.” Those pages contained not a whisper of autism, or anything that in retrospect looks similar.

Our own research convinced us the autism rate before 1930 was effectively zero (it is now 1 in 50). A handful of cases over several centuries might conceivably qualify, but there was nothing approaching the cluster of children whose worried parents brought them to see Leo Kanner in the years between 1938 and 1943.

Curious whether the family backgrounds of those first 11 cases might point to common environmental exposures, we began trying to identify them in 2005.





More below (posts #137 and #146).

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #162)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 08:35 PM

181. You haven't posted any facts. Link to a mainstream modern science or medical site please. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #181)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 09:20 PM

185. Preposterous. See post #144. Go directly to the Stanford link provided and skip the analysis by AOA.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/06/sanford-us-dr-carl-feinstein-responds-to-autism-questions.html

June 3, 2013

Stanford U's Dr. Carl Feinstein Responds to Autism Questions

By Anne Dachel


On May 30, 2013, there was a piece on SCOPE, the Stanford University Medical School site, with the title, "Director of Stanford Autism Center responds to your questions on research and treatment."

Link: http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/05/30/director-of-stanford-autism-center-responds-to-your-questions-on-research-and-treatment/

<>

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #181)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 03:53 AM

187. Here are facts I presented.

Last edited Wed Jun 5, 2013, 04:27 AM - Edit history (1)

You can google and you will find them. Please note that the reporters work done for the San Francisco Chronicle is totally valid reporting.

Answer these issues for me -

Why is it that when the San Francisco Chronicle, hardly a loony bin of conspiracy theories, sent its reporters out in 1999-2000 to investigate the labs where the vaccines are produced, so they could PROVE to the public that all is well within the v. industry, its reporters found such contamination, filth, bacterial and viral contamination of vaccine material etc, that the Chronicle instead ran a mini series detailing all the problems the reporters found. What does that say about the state of these laboratories? If you want the public to support vaccines, then make sure the labs re clean and that there are inspections done without pre-visit announcements!

Although veterinarians carefully train their staff not to vaccinate sick animals, the staff at many pediatrician offices insist on vaccinating children who are there on a day when they are sick, as it will "make it more convenient for the parents." There are at least three hundred credible studies showing that cancer ends up being the result of vaccinating sick mammals. People are mammals, last time I checked. So why are the vets more responsible than the people doctors?

How come in France, which has less press and media control over the vaccine issue, when there was a a nation wide campaign for people to have their flu shots, only 5 million out of eighty million people get those shots? What ar ethe french aware of that the American public is deluded about??

Actually, the American public still do refuse to get flu shots. Even though there is so much forcing the issue as mandates (In California, you cannot get AFDC or food stamps unless you have vaccinated your kids, etc,) only 50- % of all Americans get the flu shot. Legally, I can not get one - it says right on the insert that if you have had serious problems with any flu shot in the past, you cannot have the shot now. (I had Guillaume Barr, resulting from the mid 1970's swine flu shot.)

On edit: Dórea JG. Exposure to mercury during the first six months via human milk and vaccines: modifying risk factors. Am J Perinatol. 2007;24:387–400. [PubMed]
Dórea JG, Marques RC. Modeling neurodevelopment outcomes and ethylmercury exposure from thimerosal-containing vaccines. Toxicol Sci. 2008;103:414–416. [PubMed]

Duszczyk-Budhartokioki
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957583/

Also note - if there has been a true discovery that mercury is a bad thing to have in vaccines, (As demonstrated in the study by Dorea, and by Duszczyk) then it follows that formaldehyde should also be avoided, as both these chemical elements have a nasty response inside the human body. But it is highy unlikely that with our government enforcing vaccines containing formaldehyde, that we will see much research done about this element.)


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Response to truedelphi (Reply #187)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 04:36 AM

191. Fifteen separate citations found by one single parent

Who wanted to know if there were any scientific reasons to find herself at fault for her daughter's autism (She was, after all, as she clearly states in the introduction to her piece on this, the one who took her daughter in for the shot that crippled her with autism.)

http://www.regardingcaroline.com/pubmed.html

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #161)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 03:45 AM

186. Which of my arguments?

On this topic I have presented several arguments.

One argument I have been making in this topic is this one: that we no longer have scientists that practice real science. So we in the USA don't have the answers we should have. Your Post Hoc-Ergo etc does not apply to that aspect of my arguing.

So can you specifically talk about what you mean. feel free to use copy and paste if you want, but show me specifically, Mr Lesser, what you are referring to.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #147)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:38 PM

165. What a load of hooey

That bit about other nations laughing is something you just made up.

As for Japan they are noted for being one of the country that allows any quack to market herbs under the idea that "natural" means safe and good.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #126)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:57 PM

139. +100

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #126)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 09:13 AM

152. Great post!

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #152)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 05:30 PM

160. Thank you and very nice to find a few

People here who are not falling into the Confirmation bias trap.

Those who want safe vaccines are constantly told that their side has not proven the risks of the pro0ducts. And we who want safe vaccines also watch as those who have attempted proofs have been made into pariahs.

But the thing is, most nations in the world now try to follow the Preventative Priniciple, wherein you don't have people using products till the products are proven safe.

Many people here in the USA don't know that the average vaccine is tested for less than three months.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #160)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 11:50 AM

199. I was replying to Scootaloo's post, so don't thank me!

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #112)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:33 PM

164. Vaccines caused a mitochondrial disorder?

Vaccines do not have six to nine weeks of studies. That is pure baloney.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #108)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 10:56 PM

122. Not proven.

Anti-vaccers are going to be the death of many people. Public Health has done a great job getting rid of lots of deadly diseases. We don't see the ravages of these diseases anymore, so people think they're not such a big deal. That is pure stupidity.

There is no credible proof that the vaccine / autism situation is anything but baloney. Kids start showing symptoms of autism around the same time as these vaccinations are administered.

Here's something you need to learn: correlation is not causation.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #108)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:31 PM

163. "there is no credible proof that the autism/vaccine situation is not worrisome"

BZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTT.

Danger Will Robinson.. Bad Science Ahead.

I think, if memory serves, that radioactive material, followed by benzene, followed by mercury followed by formaledehyde, are the top most dangerous chems.

Meaningless statement. Along the lines of "in what context Charlie".

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #106)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 05:18 AM

195. Scroll down, please.

http://therefusers.com/category/refusers-newsroom/#.Ua8CCMu9KK0

Vaccine package inserts that list encephalitis or encephalopathy as an adverse reaction

LIST AND LINK TO PACKAGE INSERT

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #195)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 08:34 AM

198. You know, I was content to let this thread die, but holy shit your link is just awful

You are seriously ok linking to a site that claims GardisilGardisil is ruining lives one girl at a time?

And they are listed under possible side effects not actual. I am not sure how familiar you are with clinical trials, but the very quickly version is this: any non-normal reaction that occurs during the testing and monitoring periods of a trial is included as a possible side effect as both a requirement and CYA behavior. This is why medicine commercials have a huge list of reactions, even though the vast majority are not related to the medicine.

This is also the reason that only the insane anti-vac websites give a shot about the inserts. If it actually meant anything, it would be seen by now in both cases, successful lawsuits and scientific refutation.

I didn't think you could find a worse website than AoA but props for doing so.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #198)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 01:38 PM

200. FOCUS. I linked to a post reproducing package inserts citing adverse reactions ONLY, as described.

I know nothing about the site. That's ok, because the site is IRRELEVANT to the collection of pharmaceutical package inserts they have acquired and posted, unless the inserts are forgeries.

FYI, the site popped during a google search on Dr. Offitt, specifically the smart satirical April Fool's Day essay.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #200)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 02:16 PM

203. I addressed the inserts

And you linked to a site and told us to scroll down. The website is reprehensible. And source is important, sorry to say. Of course, I googled inserts, and the only websites interested are all equally as crazy.

Now, I might have wondered about that before posting the link, because there is no smoking gun there.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #203)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 04:20 PM

205. Let's take the site off the table then, although the site authors did the research.

...If it actually meant anything, it would be seen by now in both cases, successful lawsuits and scientific refutation.

You know better. It certainly already has.

It is my understanding that court cases proving encephalitis (encephalopathy) are successful, even when autism co-exists. The controversy is that cases only alleging autism are dismissed, even as the link between encephalitis (encephalopathy) and autism is developed. I refer you to AOA for more informed and compelling analysis than mine. The collective intelligence there is formidable and you can find detailed analyses of every public court case, including links to primary documents.

I don't personally have the expertise to do this subject justice. Others do and I refer you to them.


Vaccine package inserts that list encephalitis as an adverse reaction

Merck M-M-R® II Package Insert (Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Virus Vaccine Live) ADVERSE REACTIONS, Nervous System
Encephalitis; encephalopathy

Merck Hepatitis B Vaccine Package Insert RECOMBIVAX HB®
ADVERSE REACTIONS, Marketed Experience, Nervous System
Encephalitis

Merck GARDASIL Package Insert (Human Papillomavirus Quadrivalent) ADVERSE REACTIONS, Postmarketing Experience, Nervous system
Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis

Merck Chickenpox Vaccine Package Insert VARIVAX® Varicella Virus Vaccine Live
ADVERSE REACTIONS, post-marketing
Encephalitis

Glaxo Pertussis Vaccine Package Insert INFANRIX (DTaP)
Postmarketing Experience, Nervous System Disorders
Encephalopathy

DTaP IPV and HIB Combo Vaccine Package Insert PENTACEL Sanofi Pasteur
Data from Clinical Studies, Serious Adverse Events
Encephalopathy

Flu Mist Vaccine Package Insert MedImmune FLUMIST® (Influenza Vaccine Live, Intranasal Spray)
Postmarketing Experience, Nervous system disorders
Vaccine-associated encephalitis

Flu Vaccine Package Insert AFLURIA – CSL marketed by Merck
Postmarketing Experience, Nervous system disorders
Encephalopathy

Flu Vaccine Package Insert AGRIFLU – Novartis Vaccines
Postmarketing Experience, Nervous system disorders
Encephalomyelitis and transverse myelitis

Flu Vaccine Package Insert FLUARIX GlaxoSmithKline
Postmarketing Experience, Nervous system disorders
Encephalomyelitis

LINKS

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/r/recombivax_hb/recombivax_pi.pdf
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf
http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_infanrix.pdf
https://www.vaccineshoppe.com/image.cfm?doc_id=11169&image_type=product_pdf
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM123743.pdf
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM263239.pdf
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM192127.pdf
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM335392.pdf

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:06 PM

9. RFK Jr. A shameful, ignorant buffoon.

A parody of both his father and his uncle who were both honorable and thoughtful people. Unlike the addled brain of RFK Jr.

Far too many drugs in his early life, methinks.

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Response to longship (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 10:54 PM

121. I think it is more the unfortunate influence of Hollywood

 

than the drugs. Antivax is very big there, along with it's cousin Scientology. Robert has taken to dating Hollywood actresses of late.

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Response to longship (Reply #9)


Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:11 PM

13. Hasn't the vaccines-autism thing been comprehensively debunked? (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:20 PM

16. Yes and I find it sad as a mom of an autistic child to see him repeat these claims

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Response to maddezmom (Reply #16)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:38 PM

36. me too and getting my son vaccinated was hell but I did it.

My son has sensory problems and getting shots is very painful to him. Back when he was younger he had a much harder time regulating his emotions and his responses. He would scream and the look on his face was horrible. He was truly horrified and freightened. But I knew he had to have those vaccinations. So, I would make him get them. Luckily now he has had all of his adolescent vaccinations. The only thing I have to worry about now is the first time he has to have his blood drawn. He is better at regulating himself now so hopefully it will be better.

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Response to maddezmom (Reply #16)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 04:22 PM

206. There was no de-bunking. However, due to how Americans have been brain washed,

Two totally pathetic media-blitzed studies were released.

One of these two studies went on at great lengths to say that the kids who had been vaccinated with the old version of the MMR, containing Thimerosal, had autism rates no higher than kids who were more recently vaccinated with vaccines that contained no Thimerosal. But if you red the study, what you found out was that this study compared kids whose vaccines contained mercury as the adjuvant, with kids whose vaccines contained formaldehyde.

This was an extremely pathetic way to set up a study, so no real knowledge has come about. Both formaldehyde and mercury are extremely potent toxins. this would be like saying it's okay to breathe in car exhaust, because a study said so, and then you found out the study compared the lung tissue samples of people who breathed in diesel truck exhaust as compared to diesel car exhaust.

The other study was simply a "counting" of how many studies out there claimed that vaccines were safe, as opposed to how many studies claimed that vaccines were not safe. That is not science.If hat is how science had been handled here in the late Nineties, with the MTBE gas additive scandal, we would still have MTBe in our gasoline. there were over one thousand industry studies that stated MTBE was safe, while only two studies said MTBE had no benefits and only extreme risk.

Of course, to get the study showing that MTBE was a bad idea to come about, Gov Davis had to scrap his career.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:51 PM

92. Only if you buy into that sciency stuff.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:18 PM

15. Lost all respect for Kennedy when he published his dumbass anti-vax article...

in Salon in 2005. It took 6 years for Salon to publish a retraction:
http://www.salon.com/2011/01/16/dangerous_immunity/

A famous name does not an expert make.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #15)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:23 PM

18. The green our vaccines thing in 2009 was pretty bad, too

Think the site in my OP has a YouTube embed of it.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:28 PM

22. Yup...

Orac, at Respectful Insolence covered Kennedy at Autism One earlier this week too.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/05/30/can-antivaccinationists-knock-it-off-with-the-autism-holocaust-analogies/

Can antivaccinationists knock it off with the autism Holocaust analogies already? (RFK, Jr. edition)

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is despicable.

I just wanted to get that off my chest. (Do clear Plexiglass boxes full of multicolored blinky multicolored lights even have chests?) The reason for my outburst will become painfully apparent all too soon, but I just had to say that. There’s also one other thing that I just have to say as well, and that’s this. When the managing editor of the antivaccine crank blog to rule all antivaccine crank blogs gives me a blogging topic and practically begs me to blog about it, in general I usually blog about it because, well, how can I resist? Think of it this way. When Dan Olmsted says something like “I’m well aware I’m handing Orac his next feces-flinging column,” I feel as though it would be downright unsporting, unchivalrous, even, not to take him up on his offer. I also feel that I owe Olmsted my sincere thanks. it’s not every day I get such a massive, juicy target so deserving of a heapin’ helpin of the not-so-Respectful Insolence that I’ve become known for over the last eight and a half years.

Of course, I must admit to some mild insult that Olmsted apparently thinks that my carefully crafted not-so-Respectful Insolence directed at cranks, quacks, and loons is akin to the sort of poo-flinging that Age of Autism (AoA) bloggers throw hither, thither, and yon upon anyone with the temerity to suggest to them that maybe, just maybe they’re off base in their fanatical belief that vaccines must cause autism. My criticism, Respectful or not-so-Respectful, consists of precision jabs fired exactly where I want them to land. In comparison, AoA bloggers are about as subtle as a brick to the head and even less fun.

In comparison to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., AoA bloggers are veritable Shakespeares of clear and witty thought.

If you have any doubt of that, just take a look at Dan Olmsted’s latest post over at the wretched hive, RFK Jr., Nazi Death Camps and the Battle For Our Future http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/05/rfk-jr-nazi-death-camps-and-the-battle-for-our-future.html . Yes, it’s every bit as bad as anything you can imagine, and not only is there no subtlety but there is no creativity. I mean, seriously. Nazis? Comparing your enemies to Nazis? How boring is that, RFK, Jr.? Our good ol’ buddy Dan Olmsted seems blissfully unaware of this as he tries his very hardest to see how far he can stick his head up RFK, Jr.’s nether regions. Suffice it to say, it’s pretty far, far enough to see his tonsils from the other side:



Thanks for the thread.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #22)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 11:18 AM

134. I don't get why RFK Jr. would drink the kool-aide on this issue...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #134)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 05:18 PM

145. Maybe (obviously) he knows more than he's being given credit for on this thread.

I am speculating but wouldn't be surprised at all if this turned out to contribute to the backstory.

http://www.ebcala.org/about

...EBCALA also partnered with Pace Law School to undertake a study of the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program of the Court of Federal Claims.



http://www.ebcala.org/about/elizabeth-birt

Elizabeth Birt | Elizabeth Birt Center for Autism Law & Advocacy

Elizabeth Birt (1956-2005) was one of the earlier advocates who helped shape what would become a community of parent activists committed to finding truth and securing justice for their children. Liz was an attorney, a co-founder of SafeMinds, a founding member of the National Autism Association, a co-founder of A-CHAMP, and a principal author of Mercury in Medicine, the 2003 report by the House Government Reform Committee that found mercury in vaccines was toxic.

Liz was a mom. In 1996 Liz’s son, Matthew, then 15-months old, was diagnosed with autism. Liz spent the rest of her life helping her son and other affected children and families. The Birt Center is founded in her honor to continue her work.

Google : Liz Birt

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #145)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:40 PM

166. Or perhaps his law firm sees the money to be made

in ambulance chasing the vaccine industry.

Just saying.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:20 PM

17. On the enviroment the young Kennedy is a great man who should be listened to

on vaccines he is Michelle Bachmann redux.

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Response to dsc (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 05:43 PM

146. I have been very reluctant for reasons below, but you made me do it. Check it out, all 9:07 minutes.

Listen for the HISTORICAL FACTS. Please forgive the Noam Chomsky-style delivery and overt advocacy in the final 20 seconds against ethylmercury containing multidose flu vaccines.




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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:24 PM

19. Well, that really sucks.

That will just delegitimize all the work he's done on the environment.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:25 PM

20. Nut...job. eom

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:26 PM

21. Too bad we don't have an antistupidity vaccine.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:30 PM

23. /thread...nt

Sid

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:40 PM

24. This is what woo can do.

"Oh, what's the harm?"

The harm is the babies and little kids who die in agony due to RFK Jr's abject stupidity.

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Response to Archae (Reply #24)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:18 PM

32. Childhood diseases are returning due to the anti-vaxxers

 

Last edited Sun Jun 2, 2013, 01:03 PM - Edit history (1)



I had the chicken pox and the mumps when I was young since the vaccines weren't available yet. My dad recently got the shingles, which adults often get when they have had the chicken pox. Most young people these days don't have to go through that.

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Response to Archae (Reply #24)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:57 PM

42. Some of them like to say that they're only endangering themselves

and/or their own children. This is a lie. No vaccine works 100% of the time for 100% of the people who get it, so some who have been vaccinated are still susceptible. There are also those who can't have the vaccines for legitimate medical reasons. All of these people are at put at risk.

And yes, this shit really does happen. It happened to me. My measles vaccine didn't work for whatever reason, and I got measles from an unvaccinated child.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #42)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:13 PM

97. And then there are kids who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons, and babies who are too young

for certain vaccines.

I know someone who caught whooping cough from an unvaccinated person when she was one week old (too young to have had the vaccine). She survived but suffered brain damage. She's intellectually completely fine, but has never been able to walk.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:45 PM

25. Wow, just wow!!!!

Bobby Jr. just became Michelle Bachmann.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:52 PM

28. i'm not anti-vaccine, but i

do think too many are given to children at such a young age. the european countries don't do half as many as we do.

as a child i had measles, chicken pox and whooping cough. never got the mumps even though i was exposed as a child -- my couisin had them and i was playing with her right before she got them -- then when i was in my late 20s my son got them. i was laying on the couch with him and never got them. guess i had an immunity.

my son also had measles and chicken pox. he was born in '61. i don't recall the shots being offered -- then again we didn't have health insurance.

i was born in '41 and lived in fear of polio. i have scoliosis and several docs think i might have had a mild case that went undiagnosed. who knows? i guess i got the vaccine when it became available.

that being said i know a naturapathic doc who had 6 children -- none of them were vaccinated and they're all healthy adults now.

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Response to DesertFlower (Reply #28)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 10:59 PM

29. You may be interested in the CDC info.

 

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #29)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:18 AM

46. You may be interested to know that CDC decided, in 1969, to continue the Tuskeegee syphilis

 

study.

In 1966, a venereal disease investigator named Peter Buxtun learned of the study and sent a letter to his department director expressing his moral concerns regarding the experiment. The US Center for Disease Control (CDC) responded by asserting that the study must continue until all of the patients had died, allowing the researchers the opportunity to autopsy all of the patients. This conclusion was supported by the National Medical Association and the American Medical Association. Nonetheless Buxtun continued his efforts to bring attention to the questionable ethics of the study, but his words failed to penetrate the tangled mass of bureaucracy and racism at the CDC.

http://www.damninteresting.com/bad-blood-in-tuskegee/

The first published report of the study appeared in 1936, with subsequent papers issued every four to six years until the early 1970s. In l969, a committee at the federally operated Center for Disease Control decided the study should continue. Only in 1972, when accounts of the study first appeared in the national press, did the Department of Health, Education and Welfare (HEW) halt the experiment.

http://www.socialworker.com/tuskegee.htm

In 1969 I was at university. It's not ancient history.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #29)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 05:52 AM

51. The problem is the mercury...

 

As long as Thimerosal is in these vaccines, this controversy will remain.

You can put up all the links you want. It doesn't change the fact that mercury is an extremely toxic substance that is PROVEN to cause significant damage even in small amounts. This is a substance more dangerous than arsenic. And when people see it in their vaccines, in their dental fillings, in their food and water.... people are going to ask questions and people are going to be concerned.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #51)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 12:57 PM

63. You lack even a basic understanding of science

And repeating a lie enough times isn't going to ever make it true. This conspiracy theory bullshit needs to go away - it doesn't accomplish anything other than filling the pockets of the anti-vaxxer nuts.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/

Since 2001, with the exception of some influenza (flu) vaccines, thimerosal is not used as a preservative in routinely recommended childhood vaccines.


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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #63)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:16 PM

99. And what did they replace it with?

 

Aluminum, formaldehyde, polysorbate and other chemicals.

You replace a toxic substance with another toxic substance. Polysorbate has shown to cause cancer in laboratory rats. Aluminum is a neurotoxin and studies still have to be done on its full effects. I hope I dont have to explain that formaldehyde is a poison.

You want to take the risks and inject this stuff into your body and your kids. Fine! I promise no one is going to run and pull the needle away from you. But you don't have a right to force other people to accept those risks. People should have a right to control what goes into their bodies. People have a right to make their own medical decisions that will effect their life.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #99)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 07:51 PM

115. Again, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of science, and the medicine tied to it

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/
The dose makes the poison. In trace amounts, formaldehyde is not dangerous. Also, it doesn’t last long in aqueous solution, such as vaccines. It breaks down to formic acid and carbon monoxide. Moreover, exposure to far more formaldehyde than any vaccine contains is ubiquitous in modern life.


http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/hpv-vaccination-misinformation-and-bias-on-medscape/
the rat study of the effects of polysorbate 80 injected rats with amounts of the chemical that, by body weight, were incredibly high; nowhere near that amount is found in vaccines on a per weight basis.


http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/cashing-in-on-fear-the-danger-of-dr-sears/
One piece of evidence that the aluminum in vaccines is handled by the body quite differently than the aluminum in intravenous solutions comes from studies looking at the intramuscular injection of aluminum-containing adjuvants into rabbits. Rather than entering the blood stream directly and accumulating in tissues, as with intravenously injected aluminum, intramuscularly injected aluminum-containing adjuvants are first dissolved by organic acids in the interstitial fluids, and are then rapidly eliminated.


It's important to note that "the dose makes the poison". Water is dangerous in large quantities, but you're not going to stop drinking it because of that. Are you?

I'd chalk your lack of understanding up to simple ignorance of the issue, but attitudes like yours lead to policies that kill people - often children, the elderly or the infirm. Yes, there's a slight risk of side effects, or even death, from vaccines. But that's the price we pay for saving millions of lives.

Small pox:


Tetanus:


Mumps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mumps_PHIL_130_lores.jpg

Rubella:


Polio

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #99)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:47 PM

170. salt water is toxic

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #63)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:45 PM

168. You are wasting your time

He stated clearly he doesn't care about facts or any links to those facts.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #168)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 07:39 PM

176. Death by a thousand cuts Mr. Baggins

Eventually, all the overwhelming evidence being presented will (hopefully) make a dent in his ignorance.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #51)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:21 PM

100. Most vaccines don't contain mercury nowadays.

The MMR, which has been the subject of much of the controversy, never did.

The flu vaccine is the only one that sometimes still contains mercury, and you can ask to get it without mercury.

Removing mercury from vaccines, though a good thing in itself, did not change autism rates.

By the way: it's worth noting that early 20th century kids often got far more mercury than kids nowadays. It was often prescribed in medicines and even teething powders. This was certainly a bad thing, and many children got sick, or even died. But this goes against the idea of autism as 'a modern epidemic caused by mercury in vaccines'. Perhaps there were more autistic children then than now (I would not be surprised in fact, though the diagnostic category did not exist them); but this also goes against the anti-vaccine propaganda.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #51)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 05:54 AM

149. Sodium, in small amounts, will kill you, so will Lithium, yet both are consumed in quantities...

a lot higher than Mercury in vaccines. Understand basic chemistry before you start your rants.

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Response to DesertFlower (Reply #28)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:15 PM

98. As a Europaean - we get almost as many vaccines as you do.

The UK does not provide the chicken-pox vaccine; but otherwise I think we get pretty much the same vaccines as the Americans,

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Response to DesertFlower (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:30 PM

141. There may be something to PART

of what you're saying, particularly the vaccination schedule.

While I am a firm believer in vaccines, I was surprised when reviewing the CDC website for recommended pediatric vaccination schedules to learn how many more vaccines are given to young children today versus when my son was an infant and school-aged child in the 1980s-90s.

What gives me pause is not the vaccines per se but the combination of vaccines and environmental influences. For example, cough & cold preparations, vitamins and other OTC meds are artificially sweetened (aspartame, etc). Then kids are inundated in plastic... baby food is now packaged in plastic containers versus those great little glass jars of yesteryear (which served assorted other purposes). And while sippy cups, toys and some infant paraphernalia (e.g. car seats) have been plastic for sometime, what is the nature of all this plastic STUFF made somewhere offshore today.

Also, consider the industrial production of our food with increased use of all the 'cides' (pesticides, herbicides, fungicides) and the use of antimicrobials in animal feed and in soaps (that awful triclosan) and its no wonder that something is not awry with all of us.

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Response to Carolina (Reply #141)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 09:34 PM

148. exactly. i'm almost 72.

when i was growing up everything was cooked fresh. i miss glass bottles. i remember when you could only keep milk and bread for a few days before it went bad -- now you can keep it for almost a month. and there were very few fat children. now childhood obesity is a problem.

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Response to DesertFlower (Reply #148)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 12:46 PM

155. 60 here and glad of it

I remember in summer when fruit and vegetables were always good, fresh ... not mealy in texture and tasteless in flavor. You didn't have to force kids to eat peaches, plums, apples, grapes, tomatoes, cucumbers or even peppers... Certain things were not available in winter and for good reason.

As for bread, you are sooooo right. I forgot to mention all the preservatives

As for obesity, we played outside all the time. Now kids are tethered to plastic machines playing angry birds and candy games... WTF?! Whatever happened to being outside in real time, in real nature?



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Response to Carolina (Reply #155)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 07:36 PM

175. i rarely eat fruit. it doesn't taste

right. i used to love bananas -- no more.

yes. we played outside. went out in the morning -- came home for lunch -- went out again till dinner -- then back out. we played jump rope, hop scotch, stoop ball, etc. i lived in a city till i was 12. then we moved to the burbs. i got a bike and it was constant bike riding. when i was about 15 it wasn't cool to ride a bike anymore so we walked.

my mom was a stay at home mom who loved cooking and baking. she made awesome pies from scratch. didn't have to worry about gaining weight because we were so active.

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Response to DesertFlower (Reply #175)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 03:59 PM

204. We could start our

own thread about the way things were, but I suppose it would be more fitting in the Lounge.

Anyway, I find myself increasingly saddened by what we've lost and how we are devolving as a nation.

Though I was, and am, a city girl and both parents worked when I was growing up, family dinner was a standard that never wavered and it was always good. We had extended family nearby and spent a lot of time with grandparents and other 'kin' who grew produce and prepared it in wonderful ways. So I know what you mean about pies, in particular (my mouth is watering at the thought!)

Nice talking to you!

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Response to Carolina (Reply #204)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 04:54 PM

207. my grandparents were 5 houses away. most of my

cousins were within a few blocks too. then slowly my aunts and uncles started to buy houses in the burbs.

i adored my grandmother. even when we moved to the burbs most school vacations were spent with her. i had friends in the burbs and friends in the city. i really loved the city. was not really happy in the burbs

one night a week we had leftovers. my mom would get everything out of the refrigerator and heat it up. i wasn't too crazy about that. we were catholic so on fridays we usually had fish cakes and spaghetti. sometimes my parents splurged and brought shrimp (already deep fried) from the fish store. i never liked shrimp. on those nights i would make a sandwich with the french fries that came with the shrimp.

gotta go. we should talk more -- maybe in the lounge or PMs.

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Response to DesertFlower (Reply #207)

Thu Jun 6, 2013, 12:30 PM

210. I'll be on the look out for you, DesertFlower

and may PM you sometime since of late I tend to lurk/read on DU more than log in/post. I got flamed (and alerted on) a couple of weeks back when I called the slimy senior US senator from the state I now call home: Little Miss Lindsey. Need I say, the PC police on DU bug the crap out of me

Anyway, by reading more than posting, I found I spent less time chatting (hanging out online) and more time doing things in the real world! Who'd have thought it LOL... But I had to check in when I read your post.

One more note regarding our trip down memory lane: As Episcopalians (Catholic-lite), we always had fish on Friday with my maternal grandparents... always fresh, usually fried and oh so good!

Keep in touch and all the best

Carolina

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:17 PM

30. Does anybody know if RFK Jr. has

a child who was diagnosed with autism? Perhaps that's an explanation for his grasping at straws...

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Response to choie (Reply #30)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:50 PM

171. He is a lawyer

There is lots of money to made in class action lawsuits.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:52 PM

40. Very sad.

I don't know what got into him. It's sad to think of a Kennedy so bereft of critical thinking. It's like finding out that Arthur Conan Doyle really and truly believed in faeries.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sat Jun 1, 2013, 11:58 PM

43. i really have a problem with people like him

first , no one really know what causes autism. second , why do they think it is right to endanger other children by not getting shots. third ,to many people spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollar seeking cures for autism.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:09 AM

45. May I point out that RFK Jr claims that Thimerosal, *NOT* vaccination,

is a possible contributor to autism and other childhood neurological disorders, Thimerosal being a mercury-based adjutant (preservative) added to multi-dose vaccines since the 1930s? That point always seems to get forgotten but it's very important. So to repeat:

RFk Jr. has no objections to childhood vaccinations or to the vaccines themselves; his concerns are about the mercury-based adjutants used to this day to preserve multi-dose vaccines.

From opening of "Tobacco Science and the Thimerosal Scandal," by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., published June 22, 2005, comprising 66 pages of text and 139 very detailed footnotes:

Mounting evidence suggests that thimerosal, a preservative in many children's vaccines that breaks down to release neurotoxic ethyl mercury, may be responsible for the exponential growth of autism, attention deficit disorder (ADD), hyperactivity (ADHD), speech and language delays, and other childhood neurological disorders now epidemic in the United States.1

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF


This article also appeared in a shorter version called "Deadly Immunity," minus documentation, in Salon and Rolling Stone in June 2005, but is no longer available in either. Salon "retracted" it and Rolling Stone put it behind a paywall. However, it's still available at CommonDreams.Org and at RFK Jr's website:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0616-31.htm

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/articles/2005_june_16.html


------------
NOTE: I am posting this information solely for the purpose of clarifying assertions made in the OP, and I am not endorsing anyone's claims.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #45)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:22 AM

47. And all you offer are some lousy FACTS about what he REALLY said and about thimerosal!?!?

 

- I'm sorry but your points are way too fair and make way too much sense and sounds way too much like reason to be considered around here anymore.

Sad really.

''Every fact of science was once Damned. Every invention was considered impossible. Every discovery was a nervous shock to some orthodoxy. Every artistic innovation was denounced as fraud and folly. The entire web of culture and progress, everything on earth that is man-made and not given to us by nature, is the concrete manifestation of some man's refusal to bow to Authority. We would own no more, know no more, and be no more than the first apelike hominids if it were not for the rebellious, the recalcitrant, and the intransigent. As Oscar Wilde truly said, Disobedience was man's Original Virtue.'' ~Robert Anton Wilson

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #47)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:34 AM

48. +1

Good quote.

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #47)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 05:26 AM

50. What he really said...

Was a comparison to Nazi death camps and called for the imprisonment of a man who has saved hundreds of thousands of lives in developing countries based on woo.

Heroin is a helluva drug, which is sad really.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #50)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 05:54 AM

52. Yes, ''woo'' -- the place from whence science was born.....

 

The materialist fundamentalists are funnier than the Christian fundamentalists, because they think they're rational! ~Robert Anton Wilson



''Orthodoxy means not thinking -- not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.'' ~George Orwell, 1984

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #52)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 06:15 AM

54. Advocating for locking people up for the "crime" of saving lives with science based on pseudoscience

... is probably not a great idea.

Just sayin'

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #54)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 04:46 AM

192. Heard of Dr. Poul Thorsen?

http://www.justice.gov/usao/gan/press/2011/04-13-11.html

AUTISM RESEARCHER INDICTED FOR STEALING GRANT MONEY
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

April 13, 2011

Thorsen Allegedly Absconded With Over $1 Million



http://www.safeminds.org/government-affairs/documents/Thorsen%20Background%20Report%20-%20Nov%202012.pdf

Background Report Poul Thorsen, MD, PhD
CDC Researcher – Fugitive from Justice

November 2012

Tax evasion, money laundering, wire fraud, violations of dual employment regulations leading to dismissal from a leading research university -- all connected with embezzling grant money through an elaborate scheme of falsifying invoices and forging signatures.

With all these criminal irregularities, how can anyone trust the data this researcher produced? Why haven't calls for retracting his studies gone out? The money aside, Poul Thorsen’s research has had a profound influence on vaccine policy – both here in the USA and abroad. Ultimately the health community’s acceptance of his research as being beyond reproach raises concerns about the safety of all children receiving vaccines. If data were altered to fit the desired outcomes, then outcomes using this research become tainted, especially the National Academies of Science Institute of Medicine’s (IOM) strong reliance on his work for determining the potential for harm from thimerosal in vaccines. The details of these issues are summarized in this report.

SafeMinds is a non-profit organization founded to restore health and protect future generations by eradicating the devastation of autism and associated health disorders induced by mercury and other man made toxicants. As part of SafeMinds' ongoing activities to inform the public and policy makers about the many research irregularities that continue to undermine the public trust in government health agencies and impede progress in curtailing the epidemic increase of autism rates, we are making available a background report on Poul Thorsen, a key figure in the building of a shaky foundation of research that denied justice to thousands of families whose children suffered a vaccine related neurological injury (brain and nervous system) that developed into autism spectrum disorder (ASD or autism).

This information has previously been provided to Congressional staff as part an ongoing education program to bring legislators' attention to the needs of the autism community including those who came to the community as a result of a vaccine related brain injury. With the recent announcement that Dr. Thorsen was placed on the top of the “Most Wanted” list form the Inspector General of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS); SafeMinds has decided to make this full report public.

<>

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #54)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 05:07 AM

193. Scathing April Fool's spoof post inspired by actual events.

Multiple corroborating embedded links at original.

http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/dr-paul-offit-is-admitted-to-philadelphia-hospital-after-taking-100000-vaccines-reuters-health/#.Ua77vsu9KK0

WARNING - SATIRE

Dr. Paul Offit is admitted to Philadelphia hospital after taking 100,000 vaccines

Posted on April 1, 2012 by The Refusers


Responding to a public challenge by neurosurgeon Dr. Russell Blaylock (link) to take the same vaccines that he recommends for others, Dr. Paul Offit had 100,000 vaccines injected by his wife, pediatrician Dr. Bonnie Offit. In a statement before the 24-hour injection session, Dr. Paul Offit said: ‘As I stated in the October 2005, Parents Pack Newsletter from the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia (link): My studies show “healthy infants could safely get up to 100,000 vaccines at once” and I intend to demonstrate this to debunk the false prophets of a vaccine/autism link once and for all.’

Dr. Offit received 38 injections per square inch of his body in the marathon vaccine injection session. He developed seizures and was admitted to Philadelphia Children’s Hospital with severe cases of atypical measles, chickenpox, pertussis, pneumonia, rotavirus and encephalitis. This hospital issued a statement saying that Dr. Offit was probably faking his symptoms, because scientific studies show that vaccines have been proven to be 100% safe and effective and never cause adverse reactions.

A spokesman for Merck (which made 99,999 of the 100,000 vaccines) said: ‘Sometimes neurological diseases occur in a random temporal association with vaccination. Correlation is not causation. No one should know this better than Dr. Offit and we refuse to take responsibility for his health problems. If he erroneously believes that vaccines have caused his illnesses, he should apply to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP) for relief. The NVICP was created expressly to protect innocent vaccine manufacturers like us from frivolous lawsuits by so-called vaccine adverse reaction victims.’

The Chief Special Master of the NVICP kangaroo court issued a statement saying: ‘Unfortunately, Dr. Offit’s symptoms are not covered under our program. There is absolutely no scientific evidence showing that vaccines can cause the diseases they were designed to prevent. Dr. Offit is mistaken if he believes that he can milk the system with his phony vaccine injury claims. Anyway, the money obtained through vaccine taxes in the NVICP program has already been spent by the US government as part of the general budget, so we couldn’t pay Offit even if we wanted to. Why do you think we reject so many claims anyway?’

From his hospital bed, Dr. Offit gave this response: ‘Now I understand how vaccines are injuring children and adults. I promise to work to correct the great injustice that I have personally inflicted on innocent vaccine victims. If I ever recover from this paralytic neurological damage caused by vaccination, I will work tirelessly to ensure that such a thing never happens to another innocent child.’

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #52)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 09:14 AM

55. Fucking materialists. Everybody knows autism is caused by an imbalancing of the mind-sense.

Mercury is a well known focal point of the spiritual. Just as it has the unique physical property of being a liquid and a metal at room temperature, it also has the unique property of interacting with the physical and non-physical world at room temperature. The mercury in the thimerosal is concentrated through the power of metaphor when its placed in a needle. This concentrated spiritual disturbance is a force too great for an innocent developing child to handle and the child's mind-sense gets knocked unbalanced. The child, instinctively appreciating this loss, cries. At this time it's unknown if the cry is a defense mechanism that helps set things right or a harbinger that things have once again gone horribly wrong.

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Response to mathematic (Reply #55)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:54 PM

173. You got me.. Is that woo or satire?

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #52)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 10:07 AM

56. ''woo'' -- the place from whence science was born.....

quite possibly the dumbest thing posted in this thread.

Well done.

Sid

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #52)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:00 PM

94. Thanks so very much for the links. Your post is why I continue to come to DU. It is possible to

 

learn new things, change ones perspective and expand ones understanding. XOXO

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #94)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:55 PM

174. Really?

I thought that was a case of opening your mind so far that your brains fall out.

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #52)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 09:47 AM

154. +1000 for RAW

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #52)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:53 PM

172. Thanks for always being there with the comic relief

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #47)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:51 PM

159. Are you sure *every* fact of science was "once Damned"? *Every* invention considered impossible?

Really? There's not, in fact, a large body of invention that more or less fulfills expectations of what might come next? You're sure there's not a large body of scientific knowledge that has been built incrementally and not-too-surprisingly from known science?

And yes, "refusal to bow to authority" and "disobedience" have their place in scientific discovery, but it's "survivor bias" (Google it) to not realize what low yields those things produce.

Most of what is laughed at deserves to be laughed at, and thankfully never goes anywhere.

Most crazy ideas are just that, crazy ideas.

The problem is, when a crazy, laughed-at idea hits the big time, everyone hears about it. Most of the vastly larger supply of bad ideas is quickly forgotten. To make matters worse, the degree of rejection and controversy about some scientific ideas that had a bit of struggle getting started gets greatly exaggerated by popularizing biographers and historians of science, just to make their stories seem more dramatic.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #45)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 01:48 PM

69. Well, he's still full of shit

The publication of that article was RFKJ declaring himself to be not worth listening to.

There is no evidence--none whatsoever--that Thimerosal causes, leads to, or contributes to autism. It is cruel and irresponsible to propogate that lie.


Whatever fine work RFKJ has done for the environment, his choice to this bullshit line of pseudoscience has rendered him a joke.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #69)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 02:34 PM

71. Some in Congress agree with him...

including at least one prominent conervative, per Washington Post, Dec. 21, 2011:

"Dan Burton (R-Ind.), U.S. Representative (since January 1983)":

A quirky politician, Burton has represented Indiana's 5th district since 1983, but it wasn't until the late 1990s that he stumbled upon what has become his signature issue: fighting autism. Burton believes that thimerosal-laced vaccines may have contributed to his grandson's autism.

Burton has been outspoken in his opposition to thimerosal, arguing it should be banned and holding hearings on vaccines. This stance has alienated him from one of his district's major employers, Eli Lilly and Co., which developed the chemical.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/dan-burton-r-ind/gIQAbsbPAP_topic.html


---------------

More on Burton, from RFK's June 2005 "Deadly Immunity":

Even many conservatives are shocked by the government's effort to cover up the dangers of thimerosal. Rep. Dan Burton, a Republican from Indiana, oversaw a three-year investigation of thimerosal after his grandson was diagnosed with autism.

"Thimerosal used as a preservative in vaccines is directly related to the autism epidemic," his House Government Reform Committee concluded in its final report. "This epidemic in all probability may have been prevented or curtailed had the FDA not been asleep at the switch regarding a lack of safety data regarding injected thimerosal, a known neurotoxin."

The FDA and other public-health agencies failed to act, the committee added, out of "institutional malfeasance for self protection" and "misplaced protectionism of the pharmaceutical industry."

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0616-31.htm


"Deadly Immunity" is about a Bush-era political cover-up, and it's fairly short. so I'd at least glancing over it before coming to any conclusions. If what he wrote is true, and no has disputed this account it's pretty shocking.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #71)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 02:42 PM

72. It's still bullshit, no matter who endorses it

The evidence simply doesn't support the claim, a complete fabrication put forth most famously by the oft-debunked and too-late-disgraced Andrew Wakefield.

Impassioned testimonials from dignataries, celebrities, and Representatives can't overcome the fact that there is no evidence that Thimerosal has a causal relation to autism. A congressional report is not a scientific study; no scientific study has demonstrated the purported link.

Shame on RFKJ and his ilk for spreading this dangerous propaganda.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #72)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 02:49 PM

74. I just checked and RFK doesn't mention Wakefield anywhere in either article.

So the Wakefield dust-up doesn't seem to be relevant here.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #74)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:05 PM

75. Wakefield is the source of anti-Thimerosal hysteria

Every anti-Thimerosal article can be traced back to Wakefield, even if the author of a given article doesn't cite or acknowlege Wakefield.

For that matter, the fact that RFKJ doesn't acknowledge Wakefield is itself conspiicuous and must be addressed; why omit the person who initiated the Thimerosal-causes-autism bullshit? RFKJ could have rejected Wakefield, thereby improving his own credibility on the subject. His choice to overlook Wakefield suggests that RFKJ hasn't heard of him (meaning that RFKJ hasn't done any research) or that he agrees with Wakefield but doesn't want to be linked to such a lightning rod. It's also possible that RFKJ thinks that Wakefield is full of shit but doesn't want to alienate Wakefield's acolytes.

In any case, there is simply no excuse for the omission.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #75)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:11 PM

77. Why don't you just read the article, or at least the footnotes

in the long one, before you spin yourself dizzy? Here's the link. Believe it or not Wakefield's is not the only study out there:

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #77)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:18 PM

79. I'm not going to read a 66 page article of bullshit

If you have a particular citation that you want me to review, then provide it.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #79)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:21 PM

80. You didn't read it, but you know it's bullshit. Okay. n/t

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #80)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:26 PM

82. If it's the piece that he published in 2005, then it was bullshit when I read it eight years ago.

Why would I read bullshit again?

And why would you play this hide-and-seek game with the information that you seem to think will open my eyes to the evils of Thimerosal? Why not simply give the citation that I asked for?


Unless you realize it's bullshit, of course.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #82)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:39 PM

86. Okay you didn't read it, except you did, and you asked for a citation, except you didn't.

Are you okay?

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #86)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:46 PM

88. So you've got nothing.

I'm not going to pore over 66 pages of bullshit in hope of finding the one reference that you think I need to see.


Your weird reluctance to answer a direct question is as conspicuous as RFKJ's choice to omit Wakefield from his 66 treatise on bullshit.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #88)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:53 PM

93. I have ignore, and you're not making sense, so goodbye. n/t

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #93)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:52 PM

102. And thus the cause of science is advanced.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #74)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:06 PM

76. All roads lead to Rome.

 

The origin of the entire recent flare-up of anti-vax woo is Wakefield; it all traces back to that asshole eventually, whether by-name or implicitly.

Wakefield is always relevant because without Wakefield, there is no substantial anti-vax movement of woo.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #76)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:15 PM

78. Lilly has known about this since 1935.

That's in the May 21, 2003 US Congressional Record by the way. I don't think Wakefield was alive in 1935.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #78)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:13 PM

96. p.s. here is the complete citation:

It's in footnote #7 of RFK's "Tobacco Science," page image below and link to the full PDF doc below that:



http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/docs/ThimerosalScandalFINAL.PDF

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #96)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 06:50 AM

127. Thank you for the link.

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Response to Petrushka (Reply #127)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:53 PM

143. Oh sure. "Unsatisfactory as a serum intended for use on dogs.”

It doesn't get much clearer than that, does it? And yet 78 years later here we are, merrily shooting the messenger, a Kennedy no less.



Anyway I hope everyone will read at least read the first few pages of this important article and thanks for the thanks!

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #143)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 08:21 AM

150. Until I began reading that article, I didn't know . . .

. . . Thimerasol and merthiolate are one and the same thing.

Merthiolate: the red stuff in the medicine cabinet that felt like a bee-sting when Mom painted it on my skinned knee back in the late 30s?



"KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN"

Merthiolate, in childhood vaccines?



Oh, I get it: "Not for...use on large areas." the label says. "For external use only." Meaning, obviously, that Merthiolate was known to be unsafe when painted on large areas on the outside of anyone's body and IF, perhaps, anyone ingests it. However . . . WHEN someone decided to inject it into the bodies of small children?? THEN it became fine and dandy?

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Response to Petrushka (Reply #150)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 04:15 AM

190. Adding neurotoxic ethyl mercury germicide to required pediatric vaccinations,

what could go wrong?

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #190)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 10:42 PM

208. Wrong? Wrong? Well . . . for one thing . . .

. . . what could go wrong after one realizes---finally!---there's absolutely no need to worry about how to KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN that neurotoxic ethyl mercury germicide because, when injected, it'd be hidden where even the most inquisitive of children would never think to look.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #71)

Thu Jun 6, 2013, 12:40 PM

211. Ah, yes. Congress. The arbiter of good science.

How many creationists and global warming deniers do we have in Congress compared to actual scientists?

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 10:15 AM

57. RFK Jr. has slipped over the edge of reason on this one.

I'll be listening to what he says with a grain of salt from now on, or maybe a full shaker of salt, if I can find it.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:18 AM

58. Woo

The promotion of woo is always dangerous. Morons posting online promoting woo are dangerous enough (easily preying on the desperate and distraught)

It is more than unfortunate that Kennedy would use his position as a "public type" figure to promote woo.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:46 AM

59. Discover magazine found 'upper class' leans republican.

..lots of real science there:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/03/the-upper-class-is-more-republican/#.UatnQxpZ7hU

Which seems to mirror who Discover magazine and so many on this thread aim to reach.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #59)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 12:20 PM

60. Honest question, in am not sure of what you are stating

With relation to the blog you linked to and this thread. If you're questioning the legitimacy of reporting that Kennedy is scientifically ignorant, his quotes are from the event he spoke at, and he has been on the anti-vac bandwagon for at least 8 years.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #60)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 12:26 PM

61. One of DU's biggest conspiracy theorist is trying to defend his hero RFK Jr...

by impeaching the source you used in your OP.

Ignore it.

Sid

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Response to Octafish (Reply #62)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 12:59 PM

64. No, octafish...

I don't like conspiracy theorists.

I love liberal Democrats.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #64)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 01:08 PM

65. That must be why, when I ask you to show where I'm wrong, you can't.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #65)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 02:44 PM

73. I guess it's somewhat better to defend RFK Jr, rather than defending Lee Harvey Oswald, eh?

"As for Oswald, I don't know if he was a hero in all this or not."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2232672

oh, I updated my journal for you...since you seem to attach such importance to journals.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #73)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:23 PM

81. As opposed to what, mentioning how George Herbert Walker Bush was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963?

Because that's what he told the FBI.

You, OTOH, make out like Oswald did it and that's that.

As for journals, they help measure how much someone contributes to DU. So, I looked at yours and it was sad, especially considering your post count.

As for my journal, show me what's wrong with it and I'll apologize and correct it. As long as I've been asking you that, you have yet to show where I am wrong.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #64)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:02 AM

124. Let's see, RFK Jr. a genuine Democrat and a Liberal not known for being a CT v Sid.

Not knowing much yet about this topic, something I intend to correct, who should I believe?

That was easy. For now, until I do some research, I will go with RFK Jr.

I have a feeling that like it or not, being that RFK Jr has so much credibility in this country for his work on so many important issues, that I am not the only one who will give credence to his opinion until someone more credible, and so far I haven't seen that here, proves him wrong. It is certainly possible that he is wrong. However, the vitriol in this thread from some who apparently are not overly fond of Liberal Democrats to begin with, are not very convincing.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #124)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 07:26 AM

128. I look forward to your apology...

after you've done your homework.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #128)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 10:51 AM

131. Well, I've never seen you be right about too many things frankly, so if you did turn out to be

right about this, I would acknowledge that.. Attacking RFK and other Liberal Democrats who could be mistaken about one thing or another, that is human, doesn't gain someone much credibility with democrats here.

If you have a case to make on a Democratic forum, then my advice is to refrain from insulting Democrats. We reserve insults for morons on the Right. Democrats such as RFK Jr have a long history of being right on the issues and have gained therefore a lot of credibility. If he is wrong, then leave out the insults and explain why he is wrong. Otherwise people will ignore your opinion and go with his, right or wrong, based on the issue of credibility. As I said, due the status he has among Democrats in the US, his opinion is likely to be accepted rather than that of anonymous people who have a propensity for attacking liberal democrats on the internet.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #61)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 07:40 PM

113. Well Sid Dithers...

RFK Jr is sure to spill the beans this year about the JFK assassination and tell us who his dad thought killed JFK.
Can't have Jr's credibility besmirched, can we?

BTW, why doesn't your journal have 1000's of entries about the BFEE?
Something you're not telling us?

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Response to zappaman (Reply #113)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 08:28 PM

117. I had hundreds of journal posts, with incredible details about JFK...

but the BFEE hacked my account and deleted everything.

I thought about recreating them, but meh.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #117)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 11:23 AM

135. Most telling you find humor in the assassinations of President Kennedy and Sen. Kennedy.

It's one of the first things I noticed about you.

Regarding the BFEE, start rebuilding your database here:

Know your BFEE: Spawn of Wall Street and the Third Reich


Regarding Sen. Kennedy, start rebuilding your database here:

Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy believed President Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy.


Regarding President Kennedy, start rebuilding your database here:

Poppy Bush was in Dallas on 22 November 1963. Why?


Feel free to show me any errors in content or analysis.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #60)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 01:16 PM

66. Meet blogger Keith Kloor

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Response to Octafish (Reply #66)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 01:31 PM

67. yes, yes he had a spat with another blogger

Very unusual in the internet world. And yet, Kennedy's quotes are still right there for the world to read. So call me curious, if you believe the author has no credibility due to an earlier tiff, does that mean everything that Kennedy has done is negated by the fact that he is a moron when it comes to our children's health?

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #67)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 01:43 PM

68. I'll side with RFK, Jr.

I was there when he publicly called Scalia a Nazi. History has proven him correct.

As for mercury in vaccines, I'll also side with RFK, Jr.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #68)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 02:01 PM

70. Then, quite simply, you are choosing wrong

Kennedy is not just wrong on this issue, he is about as wrong as it is possible to be. Escalating it by comparing one of the most important medical advances in history to the nazis, and advocating jailing people who are defending actual science. What is worse, his position will make parents feel better about endangering children. He did a lot of damage at that conference.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #70)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:37 PM

85. You know he said those things? You heard a recording? You read a transcript?

Or are you taking Keith Kloor's word on it?

I followed your link to Kloor's blog and had neither, recording or transcript.

It did have a link to a now-defunct page.

So, yes. I'll side with RFK, Jr. on the issue of mercury in vaccines over the blogger Kloor. RFK, Jr. says the science does not show mercury, even in trace amounts, to be safe for humans.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #85)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:46 PM

87. talking in circles now. Kennedy is wrong

And it is not just that one blog that quoted this, it just happens to be the one that I picked.

And there is no science anywhere that shows any one case of vaccines causing autism. Not in the pre or post thermisol era.

Kennedy is making the situation thousands of times worse, because there are some gullible people that think he knows what he is talking about on this issue.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #87)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:49 PM

91. "Kennedy is making the situation thousands of times worse...

... because there are some gullible people that think he knows what he is talking about on this issue."

Couldn't have said it better and this thread makes the point!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #91)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 03:55 AM

189. Maybe "gullible people" actually read his articles.

Ya think?

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Response to Octafish (Reply #85)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 07:47 PM

177. science does not show mercury, even in trace amounts, to be safe for humans

that would be a patently false statement.

Do you even know the half life of thiomersal.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #177)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 03:54 AM

188. Dude you can't even spell it. n/t

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #188)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 06:52 AM

197. I can't even spell what?

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Response to Octafish (Reply #68)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:36 PM

84. Bookmarking...

"As for mercury in vaccines, I'll also side with RFK, Jr."

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #84)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:48 PM

89. You better believe it!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #89)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:04 PM

95. Gotta say, I don't miss the daily David Michael Green updates.

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Response to name not needed (Reply #95)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 08:25 PM

116. Well, there's a blast from the past...

we haven't seen David Michael Green around here in ages.

Memories. http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=863186&mesg_id=865621

Thanks for the chuckle.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #116)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 10:51 PM

120. At least you didn't have to sit through his lectures.

Boy, was I glad when that semester was over.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 03:34 PM

83. He's completely jumped the shark. No telling how many people around the world have been kept from

 

harm and even death by vaccines for childhood diseases. MANY millions. Tens or hundreds of millions.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 04:22 PM

101. Apart from anything else...

the comparison is INCREDIBLY offensive to anyone of Jewish origin (I am) or any of the other groups that were victims of the Nazis.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 05:16 PM

104. Another nutcase. How sad.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 05:32 PM

105. Total Fail on RFK jr's part.

And an even bigger fail on the part of his defenders in this woo fest.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 05:41 PM

107. Um yeah, same thing.

Fuckin idiot.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 10:00 PM

118. Why, Bobby Jr., why?

 

I still do respect Bobby Jr., but this has me a bit worried about his health.

Though, to be honest, if you thought this was bad, here's an even nuttier theory that is based even more on woo & bull: apparently, there are people out there who think that global warming causes autism, supposedly. No fucking joke, man.

(There was one guy who supports this theory that went into a lot of detail on it, but I'm having a great deal of trouble finding it after a few hours of on-and-off Googling. If anyone finds it, please let me know. The one thing I do remember is that he went by "Bob".....)

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #118)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:41 PM

167. Yeah, it's like he doesn't trust authority figures for some reason.

I don't excuse his dangerous rhetoric and wilfull ignorance. But I gotta wonder at where the pathology might come from.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #167)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 07:59 PM

179. Whatever the case.....

 

There may indeed be some issues with vaccines from time to time, but, speaking as a former anti-vaxxer of sorts(I didn't go all the way, though), Bobby Jr.'s skepticism is understandable to a point, but I'd wish he'd tone down the rhetoric and get a grip.....

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Sun Jun 2, 2013, 10:26 PM

119. Disappointed to see RFK Jr. put his name down supporting this lethal woo. n/t

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:23 AM

125. This thread is filled with distortions. Read what remains online of the original pulled post.

It was a METAPHOR. Although I didn't personally care for it, I'm withholding judgement.

Dan Olmsted writes:

Each of us will have our highlights from last weekend’s extraordinary Autism One gathering in Chicago, but for me it was Bobby Kennedy Jr. saying, “To my mind this is like the Nazi death camps.”

“This” is the imprisonment of so many of our children in the grip of autism
. Talk about cutting through the neurodiverse claptrap!

<>

Those who can advocate for themselves should do so. Move right along, please. Those who cannot have advocates like their parents and RFK Jr. who are sick of mincing words.

"But the scale of the catastrophe, the immensity of the denial, the suffering of the victims do justify the language."



http://annedachel.com/2013/05/29/rfk-jr-nazi-death-camps-and-the-battle-for-our-future/

Anne Dachel, Media
May 29

It was energizing to listen of RFK Jr. Things will never be the same.

AGE OF AUTISM
Dan Olmsted


Each of us will have our highlights from last weekend’s extraordinary Autism One gathering in Chicago, but for me it was Bobby Kennedy Jr. saying, “To my mind this is like the Nazi death camps.”

“This” is the imprisonment of so many of our children in the grip of autism. Talk about cutting through the neurodiverse claptrap!

When Bobby Kennedy says something, it gives “cover,” in a sense, for others to use the same kind of language and frame the debate in the same kind of way. (Language that reminds me of David Kirby’s phrase, “the shuttered hell” of autism, in Evidence of Harm.)

Those who can advocate for themselves should do so. Move right along, please. Those who cannot have advocates like their parents and RFK Jr. who are sick of mincing words.

Of course, playing what some call the “Nazi card” is always a risk. I’ve been bashed for it when I compared the mainstream media to the “how could we have known!” German citizens in the face of the Holocaust (and I’m well aware I’m handing Orac his next feces-flinging column). Note that Bobby wasn’t calling those who’ve enabled the autism epidemic Hitlers (just as I was not saying that about the media).

But the scale of the catastrophe, the immensity of the denial, the suffering of the victims do justify the language.

The enablers may not belong in Nuremburg, but they do belong in jail, Bobby said. “I would do a lot to see Paul Offit and all these good people behind bars,” he said, after listing Offit’s litany of lies and profit. Just to make sure people got the point, he returned to it in his speech. “Is it hyperbole to say they should be in jail? They should be in jail and the key should be thrown away.”

He quoted his father’s despair over the U.S. dropping napalm on Vietnamese villages and wondering if we are really any better than the Germans were. And he quoted Bible verse to say that if anyone harms so much as a hair on the head of a child, it would have “been better if they were never born.”

<>

Kennedy has put together a book-length treatment on the dangers of ethylmercury, given every year to 84 million children around the world including the United States (in prenatal and infant flu shots). He wants to get meetings with the CDC, AAP, FDA, etc., and get a commitment by the end of this summer to finally remove thimerosal from vaccines in one year. ONE year. If not, he said, he’ll publish the book.

“If they don’t do this,” he said, “this is what I’m going to do with my life.” Since they’re not going to do it, it looks like we’ve got a friend for life.


Comment:

Making any comparison to Nazi Germany is not going to be popular, but when it fits, it fits. We are well past the time when anyone can say they just didn’t know. Health officials understand as well as we do what this bloated, toxic vaccine schedule is doing to children and they aren’t stopping it. Maybe they have some bizarre logic going on in their heads telling themselves that a generation of chronically ill and disabled children is an acceptable loss because they honestly believe so many lives have been saved by vaccines.

That’s hardly a defense, but in the end it’ll probably be the only one left to them. It’s a pathetic excuse for sacrificing a generation of children on the high altar of corporate greed.

Anne Dachel, Media

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #125)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 10:40 AM

130. The only distgortions are coming from insane people like RFK Jr

 

and his equally insane fans and followers in the anti-vaxxer movement, who are literally killing people with their idiocy.

RFK Jr is a shithead.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #130)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:06 PM

137. Here's a new video which provides historical evidence suggesting otherwise.

Personally, I'm a strong advocate of informed consent, PERIOD. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I would never presume otherwise.

IMO, that the video chooses sides detracts from the explosive material it documents about the first cases of autism and implications for the present. I wish it only contained historical information without blatant advocacy, although it is understandable. Check it out, then comment at AOA.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/06/see-how-mercury-triggered-age-of-autism-film.html


Well, here we go again. Nothing we've accomplished takes precedence over the evidence we've dug up about the 11 cases of autism reported by Leo Kanner in 1943. I see sharing this evidence as an urgent moral imperative, and I'll risk being redundant or looking naive in order to do it.

So if I can call in one favor after 10 years of chasing the autism story, this is it -- help us spread this video!

<>

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #137)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 07:53 PM

178. Age of Autism? No thanks. Have better things to do with my time.

Fox news would be a more legitimate site than that claptrap.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #178)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 08:41 PM

182. You won't multitask and simply listen to the narration ONCE while doing something else?

Hey, you can even listen with the intent to rebut any factual errors and buttress your own case. I guarantee you'll benefit from the information. FACTS ARE FACTS whether uncovered by a source you dislike or not.

You won't regret it.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #182)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 08:43 PM

183. Facts are indeed facts

You will not however, find any of them on ageofautism.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #183)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 09:09 PM

184. The video summarizes explosive historical findings about the first cases of autism ever documented.

Last edited Tue Jun 4, 2013, 10:26 PM - Edit history (1)

The video summarizes explosive historical findings about the first eleven cases of autism ever documented, as published in peer-reviewed medical journals at the time, by disclosing the previously unknown parental occupational exposure to the newly invented ethylmercury introduced commercially as SEED DISINFECTANT, LUMBER TREATMENT, VACCINE PRESERVATIVE in each of the ~8 cases where the individual was identified.

I don't have time to make a transcript or do the subject justice. Please just watch the video.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #184)

Thu Jun 6, 2013, 05:04 AM

209. Just a note to say "Thank you for the link."

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Response to Petrushka (Reply #209)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:19 PM

213. These are astonishing historical facts, aren't they? Find any alternate interpretations anywhere?

So far, crickets from the critics, as far as I can tell.

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #213)

Sat Jun 8, 2013, 02:36 AM

214. After viewing the video---and doing a bit of google searching . . .

. . . and finding no alternate interpretations---I'm wondering if the more adamant critics refuse admittance to ANY historical facts for fear of being wrong in their close-minded opinions.

Anyway . . .

I'll post the following link on my FB Timeline --->

&feature=player_embedded

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #137)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 05:33 AM

196. Here is an even newer video

 

showing the anti-vaccine crowd is full of crap.....Oh wait, it shows a kitty in a shark suit chasing a duck while riding a roomba.....And even still this video makes more sense than any of the anti-vaccine fools out there.

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Response to AnalystInParadise (Reply #196)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:02 PM

212. One non sequitur deserves another. Read, then look in a mirror, please.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/why-it-took-decades-of-blaming-parents-before-we-banned-lead-paint/275169/

Why It Took Decades of Blaming Parents Before We Banned Lead Paint

As with soda, demanding that all mechanisms of harm be completely understood before regulations are put in place is frightening.

DAVID ROSNER & GERALD MARKOWITZ
APR 22 2013, 10:33 AM ET


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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 03:27 PM

138. "Well, we never liked him anyway" right?

"We always knew they were crazy." That's how it always gos with things like this.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:12 PM

140. Kick for exposure of wacky anti-vaxxers who are here on DU.

Sad.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #140)

Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:56 PM

144. Lack of nuance does great disservice to that argument and is out-of-date among experts except Offit.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/06/sanford-us-dr-carl-feinstein-responds-to-autism-questions.html

June 3, 2013

Stanford U's Dr. Carl Feinstein Responds to Autism Questions

By Anne Dachel


On May 30, 2013, there was a piece on SCOPE, the Stanford University Medical School site, with the title, "Director of Stanford Autism Center responds to your questions on research and treatment." Link: http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/05/30/director-of-stanford-autism-center-responds-to-your-questions-on-research-and-treatment/

<>

"How meaningful are environmental factors, such as nutrition and exposure to toxins during pregnancy, in terms of autism risk?"

Feinstein's answer:

"During pregnancy, proper nutrition and taking reasonable measures to avoid exposure to known environmental toxins are basic steps an expectant mother, and family, can take to promote a baby's health and minimize risks of medical problems for the newborn. This principle certainly applies to giving birth to a baby with a healthy brain and nervous system, and pregnant women should consume proper nutrients to support brain development. There are a number of known toxins, including lead, alcohol, mercury, tobacco, various insecticides, petrochemical products and some medicines that are harmful to fetal development. An important area of concern is our current environment and findings showing that food and water sources, and other common materials, can contain man-made chemicals.

"A great deal of scientific attention is now being focused on the potential consequences of some of these chemicals on the bodily organs, including the brain, as well as possible mutagenic or harmful effects on the reproductive organs and human genes. There is a very real basis for concern that environmental toxins play a direct causative role or increase the risk for neurodevelopmental disorders, including ASDs. There is now much research underway to discover what types of chemicals present in the environment might be causatively implicated in ASDs."

Feinstein didn't tell us that all the autism is just better diagnosing of a genetic disorder that's always been around. He knows that environmental toxins are major players in neurological disorders like autism. He even knows about the mutagenic effects they have. He specifically cited MERCURY as a factor. Yet for some reason, he's not willing to talk about the horrendous level of untested mercury allowed in the majority of the flu vaccine that is recommended for pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy. He didn't mention anything about the other issues in the vaccine-autism debate like aluminum, human fetal cells, and the live viruses in the MMR vaccine.

"At present, it appears very unlikely that vaccines of any type are a meaningful causal factor in the vast majority of cases of ASDs."

That statement seemed to settle the issue, or did it?

"At present..." Does that mean that in the future vaccines may be shown to cause autism?

"It appears very unlikely...are a meaningful factor..." That's not the same thing as "there is absolutely no connection between vaccines and autism."

"In the vast majority of cases." So vaccines may be a casual factor in SOME cases?

Feinstein sounded a lot like Dr. David Amaral from the MIND Institute at UC-Davis and Dr. Martha Herbert from Harvard.

<>

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)


Response to mother earth (Reply #153)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:00 PM

157. That's my take too

We seem all to eager to say vaccination is all good at the same time we rail against big pharma, doesn't make sense. Some does a lot of good and I bet some is designed to fatten peoples wallets. Just saw a shingles ad that basically attempts to scare you into seeking out a preventative shingles medicine on the very off chance you may get shingles because you had chicken pox as a child. I know that's not the same as vaccinations to stave off potentially deadly childhood and adult illness but really, who stands to gain should always be asked IMO.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #157)


Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #157)

Wed Jun 5, 2013, 05:10 AM

194. That shngles ad is telling people that they have a one in three chance of

Getting shingles in their lifetime. But among my friends, who happen to mostly be over the ge of sixty, the only ones who have gotten shingles eat very unhealthily, except for one friend who got shingles after a major surgery. (Stress can bring on shingles, and what is more stressful than major surgery?)

I found out the vaccine for shingles is over $ 250, and in some places almost $ 400. And guess what - it has only a 63 percent efficacy rate! So one out of three people shelling out that money will not get help anyway!

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:23 PM

158. he shouldn't host Ring of Fire anymore. And does he not understand science at all?

Bobby, if not for vaccines, would your dad have lived to be Senator and Attorney General? Think about that!

As for Ring of Fire Radio, at least Papantonio (while a fierce critic of the pharma industry) hasn't gone Wakefield.

See this post by Sid Dithers that shows that Andrew Wakefield is a HOMEWRECKER. Look how many kids' lives have been RUINED by that fucker and his followers like Jim Carrey and Jenny McCarthy and sadly ROBERT F KENNEDY JR.

RFK Jr. is a disgrace to the Kennedy name. If he told the truth in his studies, hey i'd rather be loaded with all those shitty chemicals like thimerosal whatever they are than catch polio or MMR. The antivaxers have NO RESPONSE in dealing with polio, smallpox, or those ancient diseases.

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Response to Godhumor (Original post)

Tue Jun 4, 2013, 06:46 PM

169. My respect for Mr Kennedy just went down the toilet.

 

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