Amina Tyler/Sboui writes grafitti on World Heritage site mosque, gets arrested

[HiPointDem]

Last edited Fri May 31, 2013, 02:27 PM - Edit history (4)

Here's how the BBC reported it:

Amina Tyler is charged with carrying an "incendiary object"...

Ms Tyler emerged from hiding earlier this month in Kairouan, where she wrote "Femen" on a wall near the city's main mosque...

Ms Tyler was detained by police amid clashes and tear gas as an angry crowd gathered...

Her lawyers argue that a 19th-Century charge of carrying an incendiary object should not apply to a can of pepper spray she says she had been given by a foreign journalist for her own protection. Lawyers saying they represented the city called for her to face the more serious charge of threatening public security. They were turned down by the judge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22714130

In other reports, a cemetery is mentioned:

She went into hiding because of death threats but re-emerged in Kairouan, where she allegedly scrawled "Femen" on a cemetery wall near the city's main mosque.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/amina-tyler-trial-tunisians-protest-outside-femen-activist-court-case_n_3358736.html

You might wonder why an "angry crowd" would gather because someone wrote something on a 'wall,' even if it was 'near' a mosque or a cemetery.

Here's the answer: those white things are the cemetery, and the wall is the wall of the Great Mosque of Kairouan.



and here's the brave protest; she spray-painted the top of the short wall surrounding the ancient graves. luckily she brought her cameraperson to record the deed.



Every city in Tunisia has a Great Mosque, but the Great Mosque in Kairouan is the most important of all. It is the oldest Muslim place of worship in Africa and is commonly regarded as the fourth holiest site in Islam (after Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem).

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/tunisia/kairouan-great-mosque

The Mosque of Uqba, also known as the Great Mosque of Kairouan, is one of the most important mosques in Tunisia, situated in the UNESCO World Heritage town of Kairouan...Built by the Arab general Uqba ibn Nafi from 670 AD at the founding of the city of Kairouan...it is one of the oldest places of worship in the Islamic world, as well as a model for all later mosques in the Maghreb...one of the masterpieces of both architecture and Islamic art...

The minaret...is the world's oldest minaret still standing...The dome... is one of the oldest and most remarkable domes in the western Islamic world... (it is) one of the few religious buildings of Islam has remained intact almost all of its architectural and decorative elements... a veritable museum of Islamic decorative art and architecture...At the time of its greatest splendor...Kairouan was one of the greatest centers of Islamic civilization...During this period, the Great Mosque of Kairouan was both a place of prayer and a center for teaching Islamic sciences under the Maliki current. One may conceivably compare its role to that of the University of Paris during the Middle Ages...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque_of_Uqba

Thus, the angry crowd. A $182 fine seems a just penalty for defacing (or attempting to deface, the french coverage sounds a bit different, but i have only tourist french so if someone more fluent than google wants to translate...)


This is not Amina's home; she traveled there (about 2 hours from tunis) to do her demo, and the press covered it.



http://www.tuniscope.com/index.php/article/25619/actualites/tunisie/amina-femen-kairouan-150514

Personally, I see her as a provocateur. The only interests I see her 'protests' serving are the interests of the religious right and the forces of chaos.

Other amina news:

Now her family name is not 'tyler' but sboui (or perhaps both):

http://www.thenewstribe.com/2013/05/30/tunisia-femen-activist-amina-sboui-faces-new-charges-to-be-held/

And now her father, whom DU posters once speculated to be some stereotypical 'islamic male' who wanted to put her in a burqa, is also in the news:

Sboui’s father was present in court and expressed his support for his daughter.

“I am proud of my daughter who has honored the rights of women,” Mounir Sboui told The Associated Press. “Maybe her acts were rash, but this is her way of expressing these ideas.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tunisians-demonstrate-outside-trial-for-femen-activist-calling-for-greater-charges/2013/05/30/a2a57bf2-c919-11e2-9cd9-3b9a22a4000a_story.html

Oh, & here's how the FEMEN 'feminists' are reacting:

During the Wednesday protest (in Tunis) in her support, three European activists – two French and one German – chanted “Free Amina” with the slogan “breast feed revolution” scrawled across their topless bodies.

An investigation will be opened into the foreign activists, according to a statement from the prosecutor at the Tunis Court of First Instance. Acts of indecency can be punished by at least six months in prison under Tunisian law.

However, Femen’s leader in Paris, Inna Shevchenko, told AFP that her group did not care whether Tunisian law punished any attack on public morals.

“We don’t take any notice of this kind of thing. In these countries the law is applied as it suits (those in power). In Tunisia, we see that people run the risk of two years in prison just for simple graffiti,” she said.

She noted that it is the first action to be taken by her group in the Arab world and that three activists were prepared in Paris before they were sent to Tunisia on Tuesday. “These countries and these totalitarian regimes prey on women,” Shevchenko said.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/31052013-tunisia-arrests-topless-activists/

Except Tunisia, unlike say Saudi Arabia, doesn't have a 'totalitarian regime'. Why is FEMEN in Tunisia, and not Saudi Arabia?

I think it's to provoke and to give ammunition to the far right. So that tunisia can descend into civil war, chaos, and extremism like the rest of the middle east. and yeah, there are factions in the world who would like that result, and they're not just factions of the islamic far right.

wtf does 'breast feed revolution' have to do with amina's actions, political tensions in tunisia, or any kind of 'feminism' in this context? it's just mindless provocation.

and in reference to that hypothesis, I link a previous OP about an interview amina did with a blogger associated with Freedom House, part of the NED/USAID orbit:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022765207


Here are the actual charges so far as I can discern from reading various media:

A court convicted the Tunisian member of the Ukrainian feminist group Femen Tuesday for carrying an "incendiary object" and fined her $182. She remains in custody pending more serious charges. (For having pepper spray; her lawyers argued "that the 1894 statute on "incendiary objects" should not apply to her can of pepper spray.&quot

Prosecutors on Thursday, however, said they are considering bringing more serious charges against her, including desecrating a cemetery and offending public decency, according to defense lawyer Mokhtar Jannene. (those are the charges for which she might get two years).

Sboui will appear in court again June 5.

http://www.montereyherald.com/news/ci_23351990/tunisians-protest-outside-trial-femen-activist

Massachusetts grafitti law:

Section 126A. Whoever intentionally, willfully and maliciously or wantonly, paints, marks, scratches, etches or otherwise marks, injures, mars, defaces or destroys the real or personal property of another including but not limited to a wall, fence, building, sign, rock, monument, gravestone or tablet, shall be punished by imprisonment in a state prison for a term of not more than three years or by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than two years or by a fine of not more than fifteen hundred dollars or not more than three times the value of the property so marked, injured, marred, defaced or destroyed, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and fine, and shall also be required to pay for the removal or obliteration of such painting, marking, scratching or etching...

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter266/Section126A

so far she got a $182 fine (300 dinar).

we'll see if she does worse than she would have in massachusetts.

[dipsydoodle]

1. It is odd the the BBC link fails to mention the cemetary wall being vandalised.

I recall one of our two main TV news channels, BBC & Sky , drawing specific attention to the subject of the wall and the adjacent mosque as being the most contentious issue on this subject. She's due in court again 5th June in relation to charges on that subject.

btw - Pepper spray is classed as an offensive weapon in the UK too : http://www.usembassy.org.uk/americanservices/?p=198 Here, in the UK , its classed as a Section 5 Firearm.

[MADem]

2. I thought the "Tyler" was a nickname, because she looked like Liv.

Not because it was actually her name.

I don't regard her as a "provocateur" for the right wing. I think she has a POV and she's expressing herself in the way she finds most effective for her. It's not my style, that kind of "In Your Face" protest, but I'm quite obviously not her, either. She's willing to face the music, so it's up to her.

I would suspect that FEMEN is in Tunisia instead of SA because up to two years in jail is preferable to beheading.

That said, the Tunisians are not at all progressive when it comes to rights for women--in fact, they're a bunch of regressive pigs. Check this out if you disbelieve me:

[HiPointDem]

4. Her 'style' is defacing 1500 year old buildings? How interesting.

Last edited Fri May 31, 2013, 08:09 AM - Edit history (2)

tunisians are generally a bunch of repressive pigs?

yeah, sure. i can show you lots of videos of lots of places. one swan does not a summer make and generalizations are always bullshit.

the fact is, she defaced a historical and religious site with grafitti deliberately, as a provocation, and she went to quite a bit of trouble to do so, traveling a couple of hours and going through checkpoints. And *someone* alerted the media, and also filmed it. Hmm.

Hardline Salafi group Ansar al-Sharia was set to hold their annual congress in Kairouan on Sunday, but authorities banned the gathering. Tyler passed through the heavily guarded checkpoints around the city, set up to enforce the ban on the Salafi gathering. Salafis in the city clashed with security forces shortly before Tyler’s arrest.

The activist reportedly painted the word “FEMEN” as well as anti-salafist slogans on a cemetery wall near al-Okba mosque, one of Tunisia’s most important and historic religious sites. Collective blog Nawaat released a video of Tyler’s arrest — which occurred shortly after she was surrounded by local residents yelling for her to leave. Local police said that residents became enraged once Tyler attempted to take off her clothes.

A spokesman for Tunisia’s Ministry of Interior on Monday called Tyler’s protest “an act of provocation”, and “against the morals and traditions of Tunisian society, which is a Muslim society.”

http://blazingcatfur.blogspot.com/2013/04/tunisian-topless-activist-amina-tyler.html

she staged a media event and got a $182 fine. here she is being led away by police. omg, the repression.



and here's the video.

cameraman emine m'tiraoui of nawaat; another of those 'civil society' groups with ties to western funders.

December 19 Bizerte will be a meeting to create the link between the Tunisian government, civil society and the private sector to create sustainable Open Data, e-participation and e-projects services in Tunisia...

The solutions developed by these companies can create more confidence in the government by developing greater accountability (accountability), a better citizen and better public services engagement.

International donors such as the World Bank, UNDP and USAID have seen the benefits of this action and subsidize the work around the development of more transparent government. In addition, the Open Government can become a new international standard for the legitimacy of governments if the Open Government Partnership continues its current trend - 58 countries in a little over a year!

The organizers

Wayne Moses Burke created the Open Forum Foundation, a non-profit open in Washington, DC, to connect citizens and government. He has been involved in the process of Open Government U.S. government, since it was launched by President Obama in 2009. Wayne Moses Burke has also designed and facilitated dees collaborative and innovative events with Moldova e-Government Center, U.S. Department of State,
USAID, the World Bank and NASA. More information about Open4m .

Imen Ameur is the CEO of AI Consulting, a Tunisian company that focuses on improving governance and e-governance in the public and private sectors. It often acts as a bridge between the government, civil society and business stakeholders, and is always looking for ways to improve the situation in Tunisia.

The project is specifically designed to educate and connect the participants using a structured format that allows them to actively contact between speakers and participants. This format was developed in Silicon Valley and has been closely associated with the world of Open Government and the innovation in the United States.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://nawaat.org/portail/2012/12/18/opengov-ensemble-cest-mieux/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dnawaat%2Busaid%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D582

here's NED (National endowment for democracy) defending nawaat:

Nawaat.org, a Tunisian blog that received the 2011 Netizen Prize from Reporters Without Borders, is threatened with legal action by Antoine Sfeir, a journalist and academic with dual French and Lebanese nationality, over a 20 March article by Lebanese journalist René Naba about the “Ben Ali dictatorship’s Lebanese sycophants.” Sfeir edits the magazine Les Cahiers de l’Orient.

The lawsuit threat comes at time when Tunisia continues to face the possibility of generalized Internet censorship.

http://cima.ned.org/prize-winning-blog-threatened-legal-action

Center for International Media Assistance, a project of NED.


Massachusetts penalties for grafitti:

Section 126A. Whoever intentionally, willfully and maliciously or wantonly, paints, marks, scratches, etches or otherwise marks, injures, mars, defaces or destroys the real or personal property of another including but not limited to a wall, fence, building, sign, rock, monument, gravestone or tablet, shall be punished by imprisonment in a state prison for a term of not more than three years or by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than two years or by a fine of not more than fifteen hundred dollars or not more than three times the value of the property so marked, injured, marred, defaced or destroyed, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and fine, and shall also be required to pay for the removal or obliteration of such painting, marking, scratching or etching...

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter266/Section126A

[MADem]

6. Have you ever been to the Middle East or Northwest Africa?

You might be rather shocked how much graffiti goes up all over hell--to include on "ancient" buildings (or walls near them) when people start protesting--or even for no reason at all, save "Abdul was here." People also put up graffiti to tout themselves, their sports teams, their interests, you name it. And you know what? It gets sandblasted off, or painted over, eventually. She didn't deface a "historical and religious site"--she defaced a lousy wall, one that looks exactly like the millions of other walls surrounding every damn building and facility and park and home in that neck of the woods. The world doesn't end; it isn't the Crime of the Century. And graffiti, written or drawn, it's terribly popular over that way--we're not the only ones who do that sort of thing.

The revolution inspired a huge amount of art--and it wasn't originally painted on canvases, either: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21401434

Look, she's willing to take the heat for her protests, why are you so outraged about it? It's her gig, she's the one who is enduring the consequences of her actions. It wouldn't be my way of going about making change, but, that said, I am not her, and I cannot deny that this woman has guts a-plenty. And maybe those sexist bastards running the show over there need to wake up and rummage about for a little constitutional change. It's past time.

[HiPointDem]

7. i didn't notice any on this mosque.

video one: grafitti on a steel siding on a main street in downtown tunis. no comparison.

two: 'street art' in tunisia. i saw graffiti on city streets and abandoned buildings, not world heritage sites.

3: focused so much on the grafitti that i couldn't get any sense of what kind of buildings it was on.

and if that's all you got, no need to watch the rest.

i have no doubt there's grafitti in tunisia, esp. in the big cities. because it's not a police state.


i'm not 'outraged'. why does it bother you that i wrote an OP highlighting some facts that weren't in the first OP on the subject?

oh, i guess your descriptions of tunisians tell me why.

the 'change' you're going to get is the same kind we're promoting all over the ME. where else can we foment extremism, violence & civil war?

Massachusetts penalties for grafitti:

Section 126A. Whoever intentionally, willfully and maliciously or wantonly, paints, marks, scratches, etches or otherwise marks, injures, mars, defaces or destroys the real or personal property of another including but not limited to a wall, fence, building, sign, rock, monument, gravestone or tablet, shall be punished by imprisonment in a state prison for a term of not more than three years or by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than two years or by a fine of not more than fifteen hundred dollars or not more than three times the value of the property so marked, injured, marred, defaced or destroyed, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and fine, and shall also be required to pay for the removal or obliteration of such painting, marking, scratching or etching...

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter266/Section126A

[MADem]

33. First and foremost, she wrote on a WALL. Not a

"World Heritage Site." These walls that face public streets are routinely victimized by advertisments, bills, and graffiti. Those walls are EVERYWHERE--it's how cities are built in that end of the world; wall after wall after wall. The walls by the tomb of Khomeini in Teheran are scribbled on all the time; to suggest that there's something "sacred" or "oooooooooh, no one would EVER mark THAT expanse of wall" is just silly. Your cititation, that you provided, said she wrote on the damn wall, not someone's tomb, not upon a masjid, just the wall--which is a boundary marker, nothing more; a barrier that keeps people out, not a piece of "World Heritage" architecture. She did it publicly, too, so she knew she could be cited, in fact, it was her goal. You might want to familiarize yourself with the term "civil disobedience."

Moreover, I have to laugh that you cite MASSACHUSETTS graffiti law to make your argument. How astoundingly lame! And if you think the courts hand down maximum sentences for that, on the rare occasion that anyone is caught, I have a broken bridge for sale in Washington state. I am old, I'm not out there with the spray cans, but I am also not stupid--I understand that this form of 'art' is a popular and evocative method of expression by the younger generation. And last time I checked, Massachusetts was not 'in' Tunisia, so I just don't take that point one bit. Aren't we talking about a protest in Tunisia? Isn't that the point of this thread?

I think your obsessive concern with this woman's protest is curious. If her father can back her, even if he doesn't like her methods, who are you to get up in her face and start wagging your finger? Are you Tunisian, or do you just find her conduct "unseemly?" I find her conduct "unseemly" but you see, that's the point--I am SUPPOSED to notice. Also, I am not even Tunisian, so I'll not pretend to speak for "all Tunisians" on this topic. I do think Miss Amina knows what she's up to; it's her country, it's her protest, it's her risk--not mine, not yours.

I think she's got a spine of steel, myself. I hope she stays safe and well.

[HiPointDem]

36. there's only one 'wall' there, and it's the wall surrounding the mosque or the very short wall

around the little graveyard at the mosque.

look at the video, she was arrested on the plaza beside the graves. there's no wall but the mosque wall.

on edit: she spray-painted on the top of the 'wall' surrounding the ancient graves.





i think your obsessive concern with my OP is curious.

that's the massachusetts law. you claim no one ever gets penalized. whatever.

The Reading-spawned graffiti icon...has hundreds — if not thousands — of modest scribbles and ornate masterpieces spattered across the Commonwealth. In Salem...he was recently sentenced to four months for tagging and vandalism... But SPEK is far from the only big fish reeled in... In October one of SPEK’s rivals...was charged with 33 counts of tagging for her handiwork around Beantown....That same month, another veteran vandal, Tyson Andree Wells, who’s better known as CAYPE, was sentenced to one year in the South Bay House of Correction...at least five Krylon kings have been nabbed in the largest Bay State graffiti crackdown of this millennium

she didn't travel 2 hours to do artwork. she traveled to that city, on that day, & notified media, to provoke the religious right.

i'm the person who *pointed out* that her father backed her in court. unlike the DU feminists who speculated that he wanted to force her into a burqa, claimed her family was drugging her and forcing her into a mental institution, etc.

[MADem]

38. Good--we've gotten you to acknowledge that it's a wall.

Not a piece of (gasp) World Heritage architecture.

And Amina is not in Massachusetts, so I don't understand why you continue to "obsess" with Massachusetts--like it matters in this instance? FWIW, I'll bet those sentences you gleefully cited were truncated, but no matter.

Why don't you quote French law on the topic? At least they're the former colonial overlords of Tunisia--it would make more sense.

I guess I can't help you understand the whole concept of protest-as-art. You're determined to be concrete on this issue.

And I thought I was the old fogey, here!

I'm sure she looked up the law and penalties before she made her protest. She doesn't need you to guide her; she knows what she is doing. It's her country, not yours, not mine. I'm sure she knows that her protest could well come with consequences and she's prepared for that.

I realize you are the one who pointed out her father's view...so why can't you take the POV that her father knows her best....and you don't, and leave it at that?

Your "concern" for the feelings of the brutally repressive religious right is what cracks me up, frankly. I am in the habit of rooting for the little guy, not the beat-down bullies. An enemy of equality for all doesn't deserve any consideration from me, so take that to the bank!

[HiPointDem]

39. it's a 'wall' surrounding an ancient graveyard beside the mosque, within the mosque complex, a

world heritage site.

i take the position that she traveled 2 hours to spray-paint a historical site, with the intention to provoke people who might be offended by such an act.

she succeeded and got the media attention she wanted.

i'm just drawing more attention to that fact.

what's *your* problem with that?

[MADem]

47. And if she wanted to spray paint the wall of a world heritage site

she would have spray painted the wall in the distance--the one you alluded to in your OP. Remember this? You wrote it:

Here's the answer: those white things are the cemetery, and the wall is the wall of the Great Mosque of Kairouan.

You were the one who inferred that she spray painted the masjid--but she didn't. She spray painted a low wall facing a plaza NEXT to the cemetery, a public space--where people will sit and talk, maybe have a sandwich, and enjoy the custom of socializing in a public square--a popular thing to do in the cool of the evening, after the heat of the day has passed.

That wall is LOW so it can serve as a bench. Stop trying to pretend it's a sacred woowoo deal; it's not. It's a dual purpose hardscape, designed to define the limit of the cemetery and provide seating when the square gets crowded.

She travelled two hours to spray paint a low wall NEAR an historical site, but I am quite sure she knew better than to hop that wall, cross the cemetery to the ACTUAL masjid, and do her spraying there--otherwise, she would have done so, and had something to really cry about--and perhaps that would have pleased you.

I just can't fathom your motivations or your extreme upset here.

[HiPointDem]

48. 'NEAR an historical site' = lol.

[MADem]

51. Glad you find it funny. You're still dead wrong. nt

[HiPointDem]

53. heckuva job

[MADem]

55. Temper, temper, now!

It's not my fault that your agenda has been revealed. By your words we shall know you!

[R B Garr]

59. Speaking of inferring - why are Feman and Amina inferring

she is being persecuted and abused for her actions when she clearly is not. That was how I took the main purpose of this thread and others about her continued antics. She still defaced the item she wrote on, and she wasn't persecuted for it. You try that anywhere, whether Massachusetts or wherever and there are laws against it. Obviously there are laws where she is for her actions because she was cited for it. Period.

It's pretty disingenuous of Femen to keep herding her around as if she's some martry for some special cause and is paying some steep price for it when she's not. Her father is in court supporting her. If she wants to spend her life that way, fine. But to continue offering her up as some abused victim of an evil patriarchy, she's clearly not.

[MADem]

61. Well, they are trying to get attention for their cause.

You do know what her cause is? She wants women to be treated like human beings, and not like cattle.

Her father IS in court supporting her--and that, in itself, speaks volumes.

You will have to ask FEMEN to account for their comments; this thread is about a woman who sprayed a five letter word on a low, modern wall in a plaza beside a cemetery which is next to the outer wall of one of the oldest masjids in Islam, known specifically for its minaret.

[JimDandy]

75. Look at the FEMEN photo...

you can see that exact same spot has been sandblasted previously to remove someone else's graffiti.

[delrem]

71. The vid: all those people, not a woman in sight except for her.

eta: she didn't deface a 1500 year old building. It'd take about 5 minutes to pressure-wash that graffiti from that fairly new cement.

[HiPointDem]

12. ps: no idea why she was initially styled "tyler". i haven't read anything about it being because

she looks like liv tyler.

i dont think she does, even with makeup.

[Pelican]

84. Not even close...

Liv Tyler is very attractive and has a relatively unique look.

The graffiti girl... not so much. No comparison...

[cali]

3. The hate here by some for this young woman is repugnant

you seem to be on a demonizing jag.

[HiPointDem]

5. you seem to be laboring under a big misconception. self-chosen, however.

[backscatter712]

18. +1. Haters gonna hate.

There will always be crabs determined to pull activists back into the bucket.

[idwiyo]

8. Your crazy CT about Amina's links to CIA, World Bank, etc. didn't mention that FEMEN is also

payed by MOSAD, Jewish Bankers, Russian oligarchs, German millionairs, porn industry, FSB, ...

Never mind those accusations come from racist, anti-Semitic, and misogenistic bigots and FEMEN "sponsors" change accordingly to national identity of the bigots.
Russian bigots acuse them of being "Ukrainian Jews" involved in "Jewish Conspiracy" to take over Mother Russia (or something along those lines). You keep insinuating that Amina is likely Europian (or of Europian decent) and is hellbent on helping radical religious right to take over Tunisia, or subvert Arab Sping, or fuck knows what else but definitely nothing good.

Your CT fits right in with the rest of crazy shit I saw when searching for info about FEMEN. Nice company you keep...

[HiPointDem]

9. i didn't write any OP like that. neither did i get any of the information from any site like that.

nor did i say or think anything about jews, or suggest in any way that this had anything to do with jews.

But you get bonus points for trying to discredit the OP with smear tactics.

slimy stuff there.

yes, it's my opinion that femen's tactics serve the forces of reaction, not the forces of democracy. that's my opinion.

[idwiyo]

10. Your CT about Amina's links to CIA, etc fits right in with the rest of the CTs about FEMEN links

to MOSAD, CIA, FSB, Jewish Bankers, German millionaires, American RW, porn industry, etc., etc., etc.

Your insistence that Amina is of European origin is no different than Russian bigots "outing" FEMEN as "Ukrainian Jews".

I am pointing out that your CT fits right in with the rest of crazy CT shit about FEMEN.

[HiPointDem]

11. link me to the post where i talk about cia. or any of that other stuff.

including where i talk about her 'european origins'.

[idwiyo]

15. You forgot about all your posts where you kept pointing that her last name is Tyler?

Did i misunderstood you and you were trying to say she must be Russian or maybe Japanese with a last name like that?

As to your insinuation about Amina's links to CIA, one doesn't have to go much further that this OP:

Personally, I see her as a provocateur. The only interests I see her 'protests' serving are the interests of the religious right and the forces of chaos.

"Protests" in quotes and "the interests of religious right and the forces of chaos" in the same sentence. Nope, no insinuation here.

I think it's to provoke and to give ammunition to the far right. So that tunisia can descend into civil war, chaos, and extremism like the rest of the middle east. and yeah, there are factions in the world who would like that result, and they're not just factions of the islamic far right.

wtf does 'breast feed revolution' have to do with amina's actions, political tensions in tunisia, or any kind of 'feminism' in this context? it's just mindless provocation.

and in reference to that hypothesis, I link a previous OP about an interview amina did with a blogger associated with Freedom House, part of the NED/USAID orbit:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022765207

Again, accusation of being provocateur, and being on payroll of USAID, etc - a known front for CIA.

From your other the OP (see your link above):

The Institute for War & Peace Reporting is a western NGO founded 1991 during the yugoslav war to train local journalists in conflict zones, and is funded by (among others) NED, US Dept. of State, Carnegie Corp, Rockefellers Bros Fund, USAID, Open Society Institute...

US State Department, again USAID, and ... drumroll... Rockefeller's Bros Fund! Never mind the rest.

Above is just a portion of CT crap that you keep promoting.

[HiPointDem]

32. 1. i remember posts where i speculated about whether she had a foreign husband or father.

not about whether *she* was european.

2. so there are no posts where I talk about the CIA. I call her a provocateur, which means 'to provoke,' which is what she is doing by by writing grafitti on a major religious & historical site. She is winning no one to her cause, just provoking religious radicals and conservatives.

3. I did not accuse her of being on the payroll of USAID. I stated, as a *fact,* with documentation, that blogger journalists publicizing her story belong to organizations funded by Freedom House, NED, etc.

4. The Institute for War & Peace Reporting is in fact funded by all the organizations I listed, including...drumroll...the Rockefeller bros Fund and the State Dept. It's a fact, and I linked to the proof.

That's all you got? where's the stuff about "MOSAD, Jewish Bankers, Russian oligarchs, German millionairs, porn industry, FSB"??????

slimy smear tactics.

[idwiyo]

73. Speculating that her father could be a foreigner with the last name like Tyler, bringing up

Amina's 'perfect English' and 'American colloquialisms' is not implying that Amina could be of European origin?

Repeatedly asking who is sponsoring FEMEN, posting CT crap like this:

I think it's to provoke and to give ammunition to the far right. So that tunisia can descend into civil war, chaos, and extremism like the rest of the middle east. and yeah, there are factions in the world who would like that result, and they're not just factions of the islamic far right.

or posting this OP

Amina interview funded by NED, USAID, US State Dept, Open Society Institute, Rockefeller Bros, etc.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022765207

where you say

This does not have to do with amina tyler personally, but with those pushing her story to the forefront.

Immediately followed by this:

The earlier ME 'naked protester' has Freedom House connections as well, through her blogger boyfriend.

definitely looks like insinuation that FEMEN ARE on payroll by USIAD, State Department, American RWs, Rockefeller Bros, and fuck only knows who else. Obviously CIA must be involved in it too, because everyone knows they use USAID as their front.

As to the rest of FEMEN 'sponsors' I suggest you re-read my post.

[MADem]

52. Good grief--now I am understanding the outrage and upset.

This poor poster has the silly idea that a 19 year old teenager with a tearful and supportive father is a James-Bondian CIA agent! Heaven forfend that she is a young adult with ideas about how she wants to be treated in her own country!



It's funny. It's pathetic. It's funny AND pathetic. It's also a bit offensive, in the "Of course this couldn't be her idea, her very own plan, constructed on her own, she had to be helped and told what to do..." kind of way...

[HiPointDem]

54. what's pathetic is you & your friends' smear tactics.

[MADem]

56. I speak only the truth, and it sets me free.

If the truth makes you uncomfortable, I can understand why you might want to characterize it as a smear.

By your very own words we know you! And it's too late to run around deleting your posts, the key bits have already been reposted here.

[msanthrope]

17. It should ring a Bell--this CT. All it lacks is Bill Gates, Detroit, and North Korea. nt

[idwiyo]

26. I am sure Bill Gates is implicated in it one way or another. Wouldn't be surprised if Dear Leader

managed to sponsor FEMEN too. Through Detroit Republican Club. Because that's what he does for shit and giggles.

[msanthrope]

29. Our Dear Leader would never! support Femen! nt

[idwiyo]

30. Sure he would! It's the only way he can buy yellow cake from Africa - pay FEMEN to overthrow

Tunisian government, which will help Republicans and other "forces of chaos" to install religious ultra-right puppets, who will promptly turn against their masters and sign a pact with North Korea to supply them with yellow cake from Nigeria. Seriously.

[msanthrope]

34. So the anti-Femen posts are COINTELPRO? The Illuminati? I need a

scorecard. The yellow cake is sounding delish, though..

[MADem]

35. This sounds BONDIAN....James Bondian!

Is Dear Leader wearing a Nehru suit and stroking a lazy Persian--ooooooh, PERSIAN--cat while ordering his FEMEN "henchmen" to do nefarious deeds.

I wonder if that yellow cake has chocolate frosting.....

[idwiyo]

60. OMG! I think we uncovered GLOBAL conspiracy! THANK YOU for pointing connection to Iran and

India!

Its clear now why India keeps pushing for more H1-B visas! Remember how Castro took over Venezuelan government, media, banking system and entire economy by sending "doctors"? India is doing exactly the same thing by sending "IT specialists" to US! On Castro's orders!

And Iran is definitely sponsoring the North Korean government because Iran NEEDS yellow cake to keep their nuclear program going! OMG!

[backscatter712]

19. +1. We should be asking that people spreading this shit on DU get exiled to the Dungeon. n/t

[idwiyo]

22. I wish they were. This CT is definitely one of the crazier ones I saw so far.

On par with alien anal probes, UN is trying to take over US, and the likes...

[msanthrope]

27. Well, this OP should ring a Bell, so if we have a Zombie Dungeon, yeah...n t

[Zorra]

13. Amina certainly has an instinct for raising awareness of the inequality of women

on this planet.

She also has a flair for pissing off status quo loving patriarchal anal douchebags everywhere.

I like this young woman.

[HiPointDem]

14. another of the usual suspects heard from.

[backscatter712]

20. Yes. You are. n/t

[Comrade Grumpy]

28. What is this, third grade?

[Zorra]

21. I'll be your huckleberry.

[R B Garr]

16. Thanks for this excellent post. It seemed blatant to me the manipulation

that was behind Amina's so-called "feminist" issues, when it has nothing to do with equality for women or focusing on women's rights. Then FEMEN and Amina have been trying to parade her as a martyr, and it's now beyond pathetic. She is just a provocateur. Pissing people off is not an equality issue or a human rights issue. Flipping off your parents on a global scale is not a human rights issue. If I had done that, my mother would have taken my face off, and she's not one of those scary Muslims

In Santa Ana, CA where there is a lot of gang activity, they have police gang units with some officers dedicating their entire career to the prosecution of graffiti. It's a crime. In America, I do believe you need a license or permit to carry pepper spray along with some competence training --so you are not a danger to the public. End of story.

[backscatter712]

25. "Thanks for this excellent post." Did you copy-and-paste this all by yourself? n/t

[Zorra]

37. Sheesh, are you ever going to grow up and start mindlessly obeying existing institutional authority?

Probably not, huh?

[HiPointDem]

40. yes, far better to defy it mindlessly and give fuel to the fundies when the country is in danger of

being taken over by them.

heckuva job.

you rebels you.

[Zorra]

46. Really? You want us to be good little Democrats and appease right wingers yet again?

That never works. Sorry, that is totally off the table.

[backscatter712]

92. Fuck appeasing the fundies.

I'm not the least bit interested in what they think, because what they think is so completely wrong.

Does what I and who I like piss them off? GOOD. We damned well should be defying the fundies.

[HiPointDem]

95. provocations bring recruits to the right. there are other ways to defy them that don't.

your sentiments are politically stupid. unless your goal is another fundie ME state.

fake 'activism'

[R B Garr]

43. And a thank you for finally calling what she's doing what it really is

not "obeying existing institutional authority"

It has nothing to do with feminism or women's rights or human rights. And yes, it's also pretty mindless.

[Zorra]

45. That was sarcasm. Sorry if that was not clear to you; I'm always forgetting

to use the sarcasm thingee these days

Years ago, pretty much everyone at DU was an anti-Bush progressive and knew sarcasm when they saw it. In the past 5 or 6 years, it seems many newer DUers have difficulty recognizing and understanding sarcasm, irony, nuance, and satire.

I believe that this is probably due to progressively declining educational standards that began regressing when Reagan and Wm. Bennett first set in motion the process of the dumbing down of America.

It's sad to see, our teachers work so hard, but are handcuffed by a system that spends most of our tax money on war.

And I'm also sorry that you missed the intended nuance suggesting that religious institutions are a primary foundation of misogyny worldwide. Do you see the correlation now, or do I need to further clarify that?

[R B Garr]

66. Okay. Thanks for the background

As far as this thread, it started out as statements about her current legal citations. In that regard, there are "controlling authorities" everywhere, which doesn't mean she is being subjected to misogyny and oppression if she breaks laws or statutes.

Oh, and I was in school when Carter was President, not Reagan, so I'm set by your standards.

[LuvNewcastle]

23. Defacing World Heritage Sites is a big no-no.

Would people be defending this woman if she sprayed the pyramids or St. Peters? This mosque is obviously very important to Tunisians. She did an awful thing, and she deserves punishment for it. Just think how Texans would react if someone spray-painted the Alamo, and that should give you a little bit of an idea about how Tunisians feel about this woman.

[MADem]

41. She didn't deface a World Heritage site, though.

So don't discommode yourself on that score.

[HiPointDem]

42. the graveyard is part of the mosque complex. so yes, she did.

the grafitti was written approximately across from the lightpost. you can clearly see the steps on the video of her arrest.

i'll remember your support for vandalism next time some 'anarchists' start spraypainting starbucks. funny i never see you guys defending those instances.

[MADem]

44. There you go again!

i'll remember your support for vandalism next time some 'anarchists' start spraypainting starbucks. funny i never see you guys defending those instances.


WAAAAAAH!

I am not "supporting" vandalism--I'm simply saying this woman -- unlike those Starbucks taggers--made her protest in public in front of cameras. She was prepared to accept the consequences, as the video that you provided documents.

When those "some 'anarchists'" of which you speak take off their silly little ski masks, stop breaking windows, and smile for the camera while they wait to be arrested, we can talk, and we can call their actions the equivalent of what this woman did.

The two instances are not at all the same, but good effort attempting to convolute them! Anyone not paying attention might buy that weak sauce!

And as for that wall, if you actually think it --or those fancy lightposts, or that plaza--was constructed when the original mosque was built, I have a bridge for sale in Washington State. Walls are walls--they aren't part and parcel of the heritage site. The masjid itself is the thing that is protected, not the surrounding infrastructure. If someone sprays graffiti on the gift shop or the food cart near the Pyramids, are they "defacing a world heritage site?" Of course not. But whatever...do continue on with the outrage!

Here, since you plainly want to be offended, let me give you some graffiti in Tunis to really be offended about:


A Tunisian teenager is receiving death threats for her public support of the feminist protest group Femen, started in Ukraine and famous for its topless protests. The graffiti seen here is in Tunis. (Lauren Wolfe)

Why are we so desperately afraid of the power of women’s bodies that we have weaponized them? What does it mean to a young girl growing up in this world to learn that her body is considered so dangerous that to reveal it could lead to “epidemics and disasters” and may be punishable by death?

It is part of the “othering” of women in society that leads to such anger and criticism of the sexuality and appearance of their bodies, as if they are so dangerous as to be somehow responsible for all sexual acts. So women around the world are blamed for their clothing, their curves, and their appearance when they suffer sexualized violence, instead of indignation and anger being directed towards their attackers. So a 15-year-old rape victim is sentenced to public flogging for having sex outside marriage. So a teenager in Steubenville, Ohio, is ridiculed, blamed, and threatened when she is raped and urinated on and the assaults are shared across social media. So the victim of a convicted rapist in the UK is named and blamed on Twitter so many times that her name starts “trending” and she has to change her identity.

When will we stop condemning the bodies and behavior of women and consider the behavior of those who threaten, silence, and attack them? When will the very sight of a woman’s natural form cease to be seen as a threat to the very fabric of society?

A man who thinks a young woman should be stoned to death for posting a photograph online is a threat to at least half of society. A young woman posting a photograph online is not a threat to society. Her name is Amina. She is a teenage girl.

http://www.womenundersiegeproject.org/blog/entry/womens-bodies-cause-of-epidemics-and-disasters


Now, I am not a fan of "nudity for shock value," (in part because while it is still a "spectacle" in the early years of this century, it doesn't really shock so much, anymore) and if this young woman were my child, I would urge her to find another way. That said, she's not my kid, and even if her form of protest is not 'my' style, I can admire her guts to stand up for a cause that she believes in (and that is a very basic cause--one that most normal humans don't take ANY issue with), she is a sentient adult able to make her own decisions. And she's done that. AND she's accepted the consequences.

So why are you still so outraged? And, bluntly--why should anyone care if you are outraged? I certainly don't care if this upsets you--that's life, we all see things we don't care for in this world. Your angry denunciations of this young woman haven't shifted my view of her one bit. In fact, the more you gripe about this criminal graffiti artist who dares go up against the sexist shitheels in her country, the more I find reason to admire her. She's clearly gotten under your skin, so that's a start. Maybe she'll really discombobulate the status quo in her neck of the woods.

I think she's possessed of real courage.

[HiPointDem]

49. why are *you* so outraged? you just can't stop. i really admire the work our people are doing

in the ME.

[MADem]

50. Because you're mischaracterizing this woman's actions.

And that's not cool.

Here's another picture of that World Heritage Site you're so concerned about--it's taken from the roof of an adjoining building, that, like the square you are going on about, is NOT part of the masjid (no one would go bare armed into a masjid, it's just not done). Look closely, now, you'll see the "wall" of the masjid at the rear of the picture, behind the minaret. Over that wall, a LONG way away, is the plaza.

[HiPointDem]

57. you're getting boring. just smoke. goodbye, i'll leave the thread to you & your buddies.

[MADem]

64. I am not getting "boring." I'm ripping your argument to shreds.

Here is a picture of a few rebellious Tunisians defacing that precious, sacred, low, modern wall that borders the plaza with their asses:



And here's a view from the other side of the actual wall that is the boundary of the World Heritage site--the one that Miss Amina didn't deface at all:


http://www.superstock.com/stock-photos-images/1566-361213

See it there? Quite a bit of distance between the minaret and the wall--room to park hundreds of cars on Friday.

[delrem]

72. What's amazing is that there's a woman in the picture,

*outdoors*, enjoying the sun, enjoying being part of the world - and no man escorting her to where she needs to go before escorting her back home where she can be totally protected.

I don't know wtf's up with that, but I don't think it's part of a salafist master plan.

[JimDandy]

76. The photographer might be her male escort. n/t

[MADem]

77. I suspect the larger point is that she'd be wearing a

manteau and scarf at a minimum, or an abaya, if the Women Are Property crowd got their way.

[Comrade Grumpy]

24. Hmm, woman does act of political theater/civil disobedience, pays price.

That's how it works.

[Brigid]

58. Pretty much.

I think we have our winner here.

[redqueen]

31. I notice that you've made your points without stooping to insult anyone who might have a different

perspective.

Thanks for the information. I read that she defaced the mosque/cemetery wall on a day when an announcement of some kind had been made. For maximum effect, I suppose.

As long as feminists in Tunisia think she is helping then that's what's important. I wonder what they think of her actions, and what they think of the other femen representatives.

[Zorra]

62. "I think it's to provoke and to give ammunition to the far right.

So that tunisia can descend into civil war, chaos, and extremism like the rest of the middle east. and yeah, there are factions in the world who would like that result, and they're not just factions of the islamic far right."

You gotta be kidding me.

If people don't want to get insulted on a liberal website, they shouldn't post ludicrous right wing propaganda.

[redqueen]

65. People in another thread were being nasty for no reason.

I rec'd it and posted in it then later saw what it had turned into. Not a thread about the issue, but a thread full of vitriol directed at other DUers.

It's really not that difficult to discuss an issue without resorting to personal attacks.

Not going to get sucked in by that kind of stuff anymore.

[MADem]

67. Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but why bring that shit here?

Why even mention it?

Leave that kind of stuff in the thread where it's found.

This OP is hardly a progressive opus. It's chock full of speculation and woo.

[redqueen]

68. Because I appreciated the lack of nastiness.

I was then asked about my response and explained.

I think, based on your response, I'll just stick to not explaining. I'm sure it isn't a mystery to everyone.

[MADem]

69. Well, the snide insinuations to "the usual suspects" are hardly the high road.

That's why I found your comments a bit ... curious.

[Zorra]

63. Here's what I mean: "Femen is financed by a Jew"

This website is disgusting, don't go there if you don't want to be horrified.

Read more http://www.destroyzionism.com/2013/05/23/femen-is-fina

[idwiyo]

70. That's one hell of a nasty website. Mind you, it's tame to compare it to some other shit I saw

posted on various Russian and Ukrainian websites.

[HiPointDem]

96. you're the only one posting such crap. nasty slimy smear tactics.

[JimDandy]

74. Looks like others have defaced that same spot on the wall

I wonder if those others were pilloried also or just her because she was in their face with her cause.

[riderinthestorm]

78. Wow. This OP is... well. I don't know whether to be flattered you went to all this trouble

or well, wow. That this is the result of my thread.

Kick for you though Hannah with no nasty insults included.

Such an awesome OP deserves a kick.

[SidDithers]

79. FFS, Hannah...

This post is ridiculous, even for you.



Sid

[bettyellen]

80. what is "“breast feed revolution” supposed to mean?

And why do you have to bleach your hair blond and wear denim shorts to fit in with these Femen people?
They all look like Miley Cyrus.

[idwiyo]

81. Can you please stop inventing bullshit to be outraged about? Is't there enough problems IRL for you?

Where the heck did you get an idea that "you have to bleach your hair blond and wear denim shorts to fit in with these Femen people"?

It would be nice too if you finally stopped insulting Amina every chance you get. Why are you trying to portray her as someone who is not capable of her own decisions?

[bettyellen]

82. so you have no idea either, huh?

This poor kid is making a big sacrifice. You don't want to even discuss the messages she is sending, so it seems to me you're the one dishonoring her efforts. People should be discussing her message for fucks sake.

[idwiyo]

86. Amina is sending messages through dyeing her hair blond and wearing shorts? Are you OK?

[bettyellen]

87. once again what is "breast feed revolution" ? It's a clear cut question. Why avoid it?

Indeed- why go to jail for spewing gibberish your supporters can't even explain?

[Zorra]

88. See post #85 below, if you can, but I suspect I may be on your ignore list. nt

[bettyellen]

91. I just did, thank you. Not big on ignore, unless I get nasty PMs, LOL.

[Zorra]

83. Do you believe that everyone should act and dress just like you?

The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood.
~ Martin Luther King Jr., "Strength to Love"

[bettyellen]

90. No, but I did get the impression that Femen did. Blonde, lots of makeup, daisy dukes, no flab...

They look like they have cloned themselves, and I noticed Amina morphing into their ideal. It's interesting.

[Zorra]

85. I forgot ~ The breastfeed revolution is women being allowed to expose their breasts and feed their

babies in public. This leads to

another facet of the breast feed revolution, which is the revolt against men/patriarchy forcing women to cover their breasts in public.

There is no logical reason to require women to cover our breasts in public.

None. At. All.

[bettyellen]

89. Wow, never heard of it. My initial impression was that it was a bad translation!

Thanks for the explanation! Much appreciated.

[Zorra]

93. The translation is simply missing the plural "s" on breast. As in

"Breasts Feed Revolution".

[bettyellen]

94. Ahh, I was thinking it more an iffy translation of nourish or help grow.

It didn't occur to me that it would actually be about breast feeding itself. Thank you!