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Tue May 28, 2013, 04:49 PM

In less than 6 months since Newtown, more Americans have been killed with guns in our streets...

...homes, shops, schools, and nurseries, etc, then U.S. Military personnel were killed in the Iraq War (Operation Iraqi 'Freedom') in the more than 7 years between March 19, 2003 and August 31, 2010.

The current count on the Slate site How Many People Have Been Killed by Guns Since Newtown? now reads: Matched Deaths: 4,410 or more since Newtown

The U.S. Department of Defense lists OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM (OIF) U.S. CASUALTY STATUS * FATALITIES AS OF: May 28, 2013, 10 a.m. EDT at 4,409,
where * OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM includes casualties that occurred between March 19, 2003, and August
31, 2010, in the Arabian Sea, Bahrain, Gulf of Aden, Gulf of Oman, Iraq, Kuwait, Oman, Persian Gulf,
Qatar, Red Sea, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates.

Of course, U.S. military deaths represent a fraction of the carnage and upheaval of the Iraq war. Also, the current 66 deaths in Operation New Dawn are not included.

What a coincidence, the two numbers differing by 1 with that being the single death so far reported for today,
May, 28, 2013. A fairly typical report from Fort Worth, Texas:

A 72-year-old man was fatally shot as Fort Worth police investigated an alarm call early Tuesday morning in a neighborhood near the Woodhaven County Club.

According to Fort Worth police, authorities responded to the alarm call just before 1 a.m. in the 400 block of North Havenwood Lane. Upon arriving to the scene, officers become involved in a confrontation with a man armed with a gun. Feeling threatened, at least one officer fired at the man, who was later identified by a neighbor as Jerry Waller, police said. Waller died at the scene.

Becky Haskin, a former city council member, lives nearby and said she and her husband heard five rapid shots. Haskin said she believes Waller heard the alarm and went to the house armed to investigate.

Haskin said there was no sign of a burglary at the home and that the alarm may have triggered accidentally.


Just did a refresh on the Slate page, still at 4410.

21 replies, 4326 views

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Arrow 21 replies Author Time Post
Reply In less than 6 months since Newtown, more Americans have been killed with guns in our streets... (Original post)
DreamGypsy May 2013 OP
samsingh May 2013 #1
SoCalMusicLover May 2013 #2
samsingh May 2013 #21
rrneck May 2013 #3
Hoyt May 2013 #4
LAGC May 2013 #5
DreamGypsy May 2013 #7
Initech May 2013 #6
Pragdem May 2013 #13
premium May 2013 #8
DreamGypsy May 2013 #9
premium May 2013 #10
DreamGypsy May 2013 #16
premium May 2013 #17
aikoaiko May 2013 #11
DreamGypsy May 2013 #14
Pragdem May 2013 #12
newmember May 2013 #15
DreamGypsy May 2013 #19
premium May 2013 #20
Name removed May 2013 #18

Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 04:50 PM

1. complete utter madness

I can't believe anyone still argues for this status quo.

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Response to samsingh (Reply #1)

Tue May 28, 2013, 05:10 PM

2. They'll Also Shoot You For Questioning Their Right

 

You have to pry the guns out of their cold, dead hands.

Guns are just an American way of life.

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Response to SoCalMusicLover (Reply #2)

Thu May 30, 2013, 02:52 PM

21. and then there's their ridiculous circular arguments

and made up/distorted facts and complete disregard for the victims of gun crime.

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Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 05:16 PM

3. Nice fruit basket. ntt

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Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 05:29 PM

4. There are lots who do not care as long as they have easy access to their guns.

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Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 05:33 PM

5. Are we counting police shootings now?

Do you think police should also be disarmed?

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Response to LAGC (Reply #5)

Tue May 28, 2013, 09:08 PM

7. Jumping to conclusions is fine exercise ...

...but for a more aerobic workout I prefer distance running. To each their own.

For Operation Iraqi 'Freedom', 929 of the 4409 military casualties, approximately 21%, are characterized as "Non-Hostile". I assume that the Department of Defense includes accidental deaths, friendly fire incidents, and other types of "unintentional" killings in their statistics because the victims are just as dead as those whose deaths are KIA, which presumably implies "Hostile".

Similarly, domestic casualties resulting from weapons fire by the police continue to be deaths. Certainly we don't generally regard the police forces in the United States as "hostile" to the citizenry (with some notable exceptions...are you out there Bull Connor?). However, members of the police are not immune to accidents, errors of judgment, overreaction, fear, or even, occasionally, malice. Usually, when members of the police are involved in actions that result in death(s), they are temporarily suspended or otherwise removed from active duty while an investigation occurs. The results of the investigation may result in vindication of the officer(s) actions or some other response, with filing of criminal charges in extreme cases.

For Slate gun death number 4410, the source article says:

Two officers involved in the shooting have been placed on routine administrative leave as the major case unit investigates.

Fort Worth police spokeswoman Tracey Knight called it a "horrible tragedy."

"It was horrible for the homeowner. A family has lost a loved one that can never be replaced," she said. "An officer has gone through an incident that no officer wants to go through."

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Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 05:41 PM

6. I fear a nut with a gun in a public setting far more than I fear al Qaeda.

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Response to Initech (Reply #6)

Wed May 29, 2013, 09:13 AM

13. I have a huge fear of crazy white men.

 

White men kill indiscriminately, it seems, more than any other race.

(Disclosure: I'm a white man)

Other races kill over business deals gone bad. (gangs, mafia, etc.)

(In no way am I implying that race is a causation. Socioeconomic status, cultural backgrounds, and more have 100% to do with it.)

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Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

Tue May 28, 2013, 09:39 PM

8. Does this include suicides?

 

After all, more than half of yearly firearms deaths are suicides, so I wonder if Slate is including suicides to pad their numbers.

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Response to premium (Reply #8)

Wed May 29, 2013, 12:14 AM

9. That's a good question. And the answer is not entirely clear...

...but my sense is that Slate is not deliberately padding their data with gun suicides.

A good feature of Slate's presentation is that for each of the 4411 gun deaths captured (another was added later today) there is a Source listed - that is, a URL for an online article or report on the circumstances of the death. A bad feature is that for each gun death there is a URL so if one wants to know how many deaths were, for example, suicides, you need to look at all the probably 300+ different URLs and scan for that information. Slate provides a spreadsheet with the data from which they build their graphic, so if one wanted to write a little code the process could be automated.

There are a couple on situations in which I know that 'suicides' have been included in the Slate data. First, Adam Lanza is listed among the deaths in Newtown - not unreasonable, he was killed by a gun, a gun he fired. Slate is reporting Gun Deaths SINCE Newtown, so Lanza, the other six adults, and the twenty children are not included in the 4411 number. However, there are other reports of multiple deaths where the shooter has committed suicide and that death is reported (for example, the 47 year old Grandmother who killed her 2 year old and 6 month old grandchildren in Connecticut accounts for 3 deaths). A second case in which a 'suicide' is reported is when a very young victim kills him/her self 'accidentally, for example, the 2 year old boy in Corsicana TX who found a gun and shot himself in the head earlier this month.

I think a judgment call is reasonable in assessing whether a 'remorse/escape suicide' after killing other people or an 'accidental suicide' by someone too young to make a decision to terminate their life is a suicide or just a gun death.

I think the gross numbers are also an indication (not a demonstration) that the Slate numbers aren't heavily loaded with gun suicide. Just a few days ago Pew Research had a report that for 2010 Suicides account for most gun deaths. They cite CDCP data for 2010 of 19,392 gun suicides and 12,928 other gun causes (of which gun homicides were 11,078). Other reports, such as from Huff Post, indicate Veteran suicides in general are increasing. The Slate data is tracking for approximately 9000 reported gun deaths - if many suicides were included I think that number would be much higher.

The facts about the number of suicides included in the Slate data is available in the data...but some work is required to extract it.

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Response to DreamGypsy (Reply #9)

Wed May 29, 2013, 08:38 AM

10. Thanks.

 

I'll try to figure this all out. BTW, good job on this article, thanks for posting it, gives me something to mull over.

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Response to premium (Reply #10)

Wed May 29, 2013, 10:15 AM

16. Thanks for your question and comment.

I checked the Slate site again this morning ... 4438 is the current tally, including the 4 women, 9 men, and a 13 year old boy from yesterday. I clicked on the report for one of the women, from Oregon where I live. Another murder/suicide where the shooter, her husband is listed as well among the men.

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Response to DreamGypsy (Reply #16)

Wed May 29, 2013, 10:22 AM

17. Another thing to consider

 

is how many of these tragic deaths are due to this insane WOD? How many are related to the ongoing inner city gang turf war over the drug trade.

I'm not trying to lessen the impact of firearms violence, just trying to understand the underlying causes of it.

But that's for another thread.
Thanks again for the links and article.

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Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2013, 09:02 AM

11. This is an excellent "apples and oranges" comparison




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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #11)

Wed May 29, 2013, 10:04 AM

14. Yes, definitely very different situations...

...but that's part of the reason I find the numbers so startling.

Many of the U.S. combat deaths in Iraq were due to IEDs. The Washington Post reports that for the first 4 years of the war 63% of U.S. casualties (1952 out of 3092) were from IED's.

In the United States we like to thing we don't have "suicide bombers". We do, just that guns are the bombs of choice here.

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Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2013, 09:08 AM

12. Guns belong on the battlefield. In this libertarian paradise called America...

 

Citizens have access to way too many things they don't need that are dangerous or annoying to their neighbors.

Because, FREEDOM, that's why. People think that's a scientific, legal, and moral rebuttal to changes in the law.

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Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

Wed May 29, 2013, 10:14 AM

15. The VA says there were an estimated 8,030 suicides among vets in 2010, an increase from 7,300 in 200

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/19/veterans-outreach-increases/2001571/

I don't know how many happened in 2013 so far , the numbers aren't out yet
but most are gundeaths

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Response to newmember (Reply #15)

Wed May 29, 2013, 10:26 AM

19. Right, and the overall suicide rate in the U.S. is increasing as well.

From the New York Times 2/1/2013: As Suicides Rise in U.S., Veterans Are Less of Total

Suicides among military veterans, though up slightly in recent years, account for a shrinking percentage of the nation’s total number of suicides — a result of steadily rising numbers of suicides in the general population, according to a report released on Friday by the Department of Veterans Affairs.

<snip>

As a result, the percentage of the nation’s daily suicides committed by veterans declined to 21 percent in 2010, from 25 percent in 1999.

“What’s happening with veterans is a reflection of what’s happening to America,” Jan Kemp, the national mental health director for suicide prevention at the Department of Veterans Affairs, said in an interview. “The suicide rate in America has been creeping up.”


The economy...

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Response to DreamGypsy (Reply #19)

Wed May 29, 2013, 10:28 AM

20. The economy,

 

and the lack of quality mental health care in the country.

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Response to DreamGypsy (Original post)

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