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Sat May 25, 2013, 09:09 PM

Don't let Catholics run hospitals

http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/8-catholic-hospital-threaten-mergers-reproductive-rights-for-women/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/02/24/dont-let-catholics-run-hospitals/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/04/26/why-catholic-hospitals-should-scare-you/

68 replies, 5283 views

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Arrow 68 replies Author Time Post
Reply Don't let Catholics run hospitals (Original post)
Dawson Leery May 2013 OP
Thinkingabout May 2013 #1
Scuba May 2013 #2
Thinkingabout May 2013 #4
Scuba May 2013 #5
Thinkingabout May 2013 #6
Honeycombe8 May 2013 #13
Scuba May 2013 #41
Honeycombe8 May 2013 #62
rucky May 2013 #3
bettyellen May 2013 #9
Lars39 May 2013 #7
rug May 2013 #8
Cerridwen May 2013 #12
rug May 2013 #15
Cerridwen May 2013 #16
rug May 2013 #19
Cerridwen May 2013 #21
rug May 2013 #22
Cerridwen May 2013 #26
rug May 2013 #28
Cerridwen May 2013 #30
rug May 2013 #32
Cerridwen May 2013 #36
rug May 2013 #37
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #17
rug May 2013 #20
LineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #24
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
rug May 2013 #25
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #29
rug May 2013 #33
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #38
rug May 2013 #39
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #44
rug May 2013 #46
Post removed May 2013 #47
rug May 2013 #48
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #50
rug May 2013 #51
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #53
rug May 2013 #54
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #52
rug May 2013 #56
Cerridwen May 2013 #58
hughee99 May 2013 #64
nomorenomore08 May 2013 #10
Cerridwen May 2013 #11
pnwmom May 2013 #23
Cerridwen May 2013 #27
pnwmom May 2013 #59
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #35
pnwmom May 2013 #60
nolabear May 2013 #14
Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #31
nolabear May 2013 #61
LittleBlue May 2013 #18
Freddie May 2013 #34
hrmjustin May 2013 #40
NightWatcher May 2013 #42
siligut May 2013 #43
cynatnite May 2013 #45
pokerfan May 2013 #49
liberal N proud May 2013 #55
CountAllVotes May 2013 #57
alarimer May 2013 #63
Dawson Leery May 2013 #67
Raine May 2013 #65
Revanchist May 2013 #66
Sgent May 2013 #68

Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2013, 09:53 PM

1. I do love Catholics but there is an easy answer to this problem. If you do not want to be

Told to provide contraceptive coverage for your employees or perhaps the morning after pill then do not accept any funding from government sources. Its the old saying, it cost to be the boss. I am sure those funds could be divided between others who provide contraceptives.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #1)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:46 AM

2. My area has one hospital: Wholly Redeemable. Yet laws prevent the construction of new hospitals ..

 

... that would provide a choice for those of us who wish we could go elsewhere.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #2)

Sun May 26, 2013, 05:34 PM

4. I understand this could be a problem in some areas but does this hospital you refer to

Under any requirement to accept federal funding.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #4)

Sun May 26, 2013, 06:32 PM

5. Well, if they're going to serve Medicare patients, yes. Are you suggesting Medicare patients ...

 

... should be required to drive 90 minutes so they can be seen at a non-Catholic hospital?

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Response to Scuba (Reply #5)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:10 PM

6. This is what makes the whole thing stupid, Catholics are wanting to control choices of employees

Who may not share the same beliefs of the church, is the hospital only hiring Catholics, doubt it. There is more to a female taking birth control pills than preventing conception, like treatment for different problems. The hospital depends on resources other than provided by the church, funds to build or expand the hospital, they are for profit as in the case of accepting Medicare and Medicaid, this is not a charity. I understand BC is going to be provided by planned parenthood and Catholic churches are still whining. Either stay for profit and join in with other for profit companies or go charity all the way. Bet they will remain for profit.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #2)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:22 PM

13. There is a downside to living in a rural or small town area. Choices are limited across the board.

Clothing, grocery stores, care facilities, day care, schools and teachers, jobs, and even potential spouses. It's a nice way to live...small town America...but there's definitely a tradeoff from living in a big city.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #13)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:26 PM

41. Yes, but there's a hospital here, and they accept Medicare, so shouldn't they ...

 

... be required to provide any necessary service covered by Medicare? That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #41)

Mon May 27, 2013, 06:05 PM

62. I don't know if accepting Medicare is accepting funding.

I really don't know the answer to that. Could be it's the patient who is the beneficiary, while the health care provider just provides a service and gets a lower than usual fee for it. Dunno.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:53 AM

3. They do fill a need in the community

for the poor to have access to affordable, and often free healthcare. Yes, there are some strings attached, but until we make a better system, I think they're doing more good than harm in sum. So let's not shut them down, let's change the system so they're no longer needed.

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Response to rucky (Reply #3)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:18 PM

9. My Aunt built and ran a chain of hospitals for the Church, and she was a union busting hard ass of a

 

nun. I was proud she rose to such a high position, starting out as a nurse- but boy she was a tough cookie. Who fought the unions tooth and nail.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:15 PM

7. It is not just the hospitals, but the office space rented also.

Not being able to even discuss birth control is being written into the leases signed. Not enforced yet, though.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 07:16 PM

8. Anything else you and PZ don't want Catholics to run?

 

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Response to rug (Reply #8)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:19 PM

12. Speaking for myself,

I'd prefer "catholics" not run anything to do with women, gays, and science.

They have a lousy history of fucking up each and all.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #12)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:25 PM

15. Speaking for yourself, are you making that statement on Catholics as a group?

 

They have a lousy history of fucking up each and all.


That is the "they" you're referring to, isn't it?

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Response to rug (Reply #15)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:28 PM

16. I'm speaking of the hierarchy with the power

to enforce their agenda. I'm speaking of those rank and file "catholics" who use their "religious" superiority to pass God's judgement in order to better themselves at the expense of "others".

You can return your "mind reader" now for a refund as it gave you invalid information.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #16)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:34 PM

19. The ony thing I "read" was your post.

 

Very gracious of you to backtrack.

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Response to rug (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:36 PM

21. You must have me confused with someone else.

I have a long history of not caring for the powers in charge or their simple-minded minions.

Nice try, though.

I'll leave my history to stand for itself.

As to your reading comprehension; keep up the, er, good work.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #21)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:40 PM

22. I don't know you, let alone your "history". Should I?

 

What I have just seen is a broad brush which can only help the "powers in charge". As to "simple-minded minions", well, I think I'll just let that hang out there for a while.

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Response to rug (Reply #22)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:53 PM

26. I'll type slower this time.



I'd prefer "catholics" not run anything to do with women, gays, and science.

They have a lousy history of fucking up each and all.


See the quotes and the lower case `catholics`. Those would be your first clues when it comes to comprehending text on a screen.

The, frequently referred to as "scary quotes", are the indication that I'm not referring to Catholics. Too difficult?

Many who type to this board use various means to indicate tone, intent, and context of our posts based in the simple tools of punctuation. One of those tools is the use of "scary quotes" to denote something not to be taken as simplistically as the words within the quotes.

I personally, use lower case characters in those words traditionally afforded the unquestioned validity of capitalization in order to denote lack of respect (on my part) as well as an opportunity to display a challenge to the status quo.

The upshot being, I used "catholics" to depict those who claim Catholicism in the name of their own self-promoting agenda and who would use anything as an appeal to some higher authority to justify their own bigotries as well as those who use their "divine" authority to butt their sanctimonious noses into the realms of science and politics while claiming the "divine right" of "God's Word" to tear down and repress and suppress "others". (mixed metaphors intended)

Now, if you'll excuse me; that's as slowly and simplistically as I'm able or willing to type.



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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #26)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:58 PM

28. Oh, "scary quotes".

 

Why that clears everything up.

I'm glad you do not consider Catholics to be simple-minded minions. That would be absurd bigotry to find on a progressive board, wouldn't it?

Too bad PZ and the OP did not use "scary quotes".

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Response to rug (Reply #28)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:04 PM

30. Ahhhhh. You're so "perceptive."

Dismissing "catholics" is a perfect example of being bigoted toward bigots, isn't it?

Where have I heard or read that particular form of..."tolerance" before?

Oh yes. I remember.

"How dare you be intolerant of my intolerance?!" "How dare you 'bully' someone who is bullying you?!" "You! You! Bully of bullies; you!"

Which bothered you the most? That I used scary quotes or that you missed it and had to have it quoted back to you?





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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #30)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:09 PM

32. Since you asked,

 

your alacrity to broad brush an entire group for a dubious point is only slightly less revolting than your breezy attempt to disown it.

Would you like to hear more?

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Response to rug (Reply #32)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:17 PM

36. Ah. So you missed the quotes the first

time through and mistakenly thought I referred to ALL and now you're trying to save face.

Got it.

It's fairly common on this board for people to use punctuation and spelling and other tools to distinguish meaning and context.

It's also fairly common for people to display their lack of discernment and then attempt to blame others for their lack of skill.

Have a great night/day/morning (depending on your time zone).

I don't have any more time to attempt to educate another whose prejudice precludes them seeing beyond their own shortcomings while denying they don't have them. That's what republicans are for.






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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #36)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:18 PM

37. "good night"

 

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Response to rug (Reply #15)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:29 PM

17. Seems quite apparent to me that the writer is writing about the church, which leads me to

 

wonder why that seems to have escaped you.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #17)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:35 PM

20. The church consists of its hieracrchy and of its members.

 

wonder why that seems to have escaped you.

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Response to rug (Reply #20)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:45 PM

24. .

 

ob·tuse [uhb-toos, -tyoos]
adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #24)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:52 PM

25. .

 

su·per·cil·i·ous
adjective
haughtily disdainful or contemptuous, as a person or a facial expression.

Origin:
1520–30; < Latin superciliōsus. See supercilium, -ous

Related forms
su·per·cil·i·ous·ly, adverb
su·per·cil·i·ous·ness, noun
un·su·per·cil·i·ous, adjective
un·su·per·cil·i·ous·ly, adverb
un·su·per·cil·i·ous·ness, noun

Synonyms
arrogant, scornful

If you insist on being a pedant, at least show the etymology.

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Response to rug (Reply #25)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:03 PM

29. I hold all people that insist that their delusions be afforded validity simply because

 

the delusion is shared by many other delusional people in disdain.

You can choose to believe any fantasy you like, it's no business of mine, but when you try to insist that your delusions be allowed to seriously effect the real lives of real people, I will call bullshit every time.

Science will fly you to the moon, religion will fly you into buildings.

Own it.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #29)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:12 PM

33. Lol! Tell me more.

 

"Delusions". Pray tell, what delusions might they be?

I'm always amused by how quickly that card comes flying off the deck. You wouldn't possibly have an agenda other than the OP that you're aching to push, would you?

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Response to rug (Reply #33)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:20 PM

38. So, you got nothin'...

 

Please feel free to go back to your safe room and leave the rest of the world out of your hallucinations.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #38)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:22 PM

39. I see. You won't expand on your "delusions" remark.

 

I don't blame you posting out in public and all.

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Response to rug (Reply #39)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:43 PM

44. If only you did see, but living in a bubble constructed around a childish fantasy precludes that. nt

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #44)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:46 PM

46. Er, replacing "delusion" with "childish fantasy" hardly answers the question.

 

Surely you have facts to support your name calling. Otherwise, one might be tempted to conclude you're simply typing bullshit.

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Response to rug (Reply #46)


Response to Post removed (Reply #47)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:57 PM

48. "fantasy based bigotry"?

 

Oh, now you've gone from "delusion" to "childish fantasy" to "fantasy based bigotry", all without producing a single fact.

Hmm, you've called me a bigot . . . .

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Response to rug (Reply #48)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:02 PM

50. Delusion:

 

Definition: misconception, misbelief

Synonyms: apparition, blunder, casuistry, chicanery, daydream, deception, deceptiveness, dream, eidolon, error, fallacy, false impression, fancy, fantasy, figment, fool's paradise, ghost, hallucination, head trip, ignis fatuus, illusion, lapse, mirage, misapprehension, mistake, optical illusion, oversight, phantasm, phantom, pipe dream, self-deception, shade, speciousness, spuriousness, trickery, trip, vision

I'm sure there are more if you really require them.

I didn't call you a bigot, as I'm sure you know.

And you still got nothin'...

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #50)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:04 PM

51. "your fantasy based bigotry" is not calling me a bigot?

 

To quote, er . . . , you . . . . , own it.

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Response to rug (Reply #51)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:07 PM

53. So in addition to logic, reading is not your strong suit either...

 


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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #53)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:09 PM

54. Denial is a sad thing to see.

 

The rolling smiley is the dead giveaway.

Where name-calling falls there's always the little yellow rofl.

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Response to rug (Reply #48)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:05 PM

52. Oh wait, I get it, you're waiting for your fantasy bully to come bail you out...

 



I'm pretty sure the Flying Spaghetti Monster can kick you God's ass any day

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #52)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:13 PM

56. Nope, just a jury.

 

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Response to rug (Reply #56)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:28 PM

58. "good job." n/t

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #12)

Mon May 27, 2013, 06:56 PM

64. That was my issue with JFK... damn catholics! n/t

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:13 PM

10. Ideally, with socialized healthcare, we would have no need for Catholic hospitals.

And ideally, they wouldn't be so dogmatic about their anti-contraception beliefs which most of their followers ignore anyway.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:18 PM

11. I'd prefer medicine be run by those

with knowledge of medicine and medical science.

Profiteers can go fuck a stack of cash; and "religionists" can go fleece their flock(s) and leave the rest of us enjoying the health and benefits of valid, rigorously researched science.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #11)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:42 PM

23. The nuns filled a void. Other people weren't rushing to set up hospitals

that weren't based on the profit motive.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #23)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:56 PM

27. Create a "void" then fill it.

The "Catholic Church" has a long history of creating the very problems it then "cures."

It's another form of power not as closely related to the power of capital.

It is and was a form of having power over others; in exchange for "belief" and tithes they provided "relief" from the ills of the day.



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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #27)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:42 AM

59. How did they create the void of no hospital in an area?

Did they wave their magic wands and make preexisting hospitals go poof?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #23)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:15 PM

35. I grew up in a city that had done just that. We had a municipal hospital that was

 

the best hospital for a thousand miles in any direction. It also served the state university so that reality based students could practice the sciences and art they learned to become better, and all of that with no requirement to profess belief in Santa Cause, the FSM, or any other ridiculous hallucinations, not did they withhold treatments from patients because of their delusions.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #35)

Mon May 27, 2013, 12:45 AM

60. That's great but not all towns have done so, as you know.

We had a Catholic hospital in Seattle that sold itself to a larger private hospital. And they quickly cut back on the care for the poor that the Catholic hospital had been providing.

I agree that any hospital, including Catholic hospitals, that takes Federal funds should provide all services, including abortion and contraception. But I'm also concerned about profit-oriented hospitals denying care to poor people. Neither situation takes care of everyone or everyone's medical needs.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:23 PM

14. If Catholics didn't run hospitals there would be a whole lot fewer hospitals.

They've been nursing and caring for the sick since there were Catholics. And there's always been conflict. But they fill a need that isn't being filled by anyone else.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #14)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:06 PM

31. Perhaps if the churches were taxed, the community would be able to afford to build their own. n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #31)

Mon May 27, 2013, 05:47 PM

61. Could be. But, much as I hate the moralism, they do a service.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 08:29 PM

18. My friend worked at a Catholic hospital when the nuns ran it

 

And it changed to corporate leadership from nuns running the show. He said the healthcare quality declined rapidly as hospital money went to corporate bonuses, hiring useless consultants and "management teams", and advertising. he could tell you stories all day about consultants who installed multi-million dollar software projects and gadgets being bought that were ultimately shelved due to uselessness. My family has gone there for over a generation and the care tanked, my father walked out in the middle of the night because no one came to discharge him for an entire day.

My friend left that job because finally benefits were being rolled back for hospital employees. He had fond stories about the head nun who would come down and talk to him and the patients about their care, while during his time he never saw the new CEO in person. They had built expensive corporate offices and spent their time there. Catholics aren't as bad as they seem when the corporate vampires come, believe me.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:13 PM

34. "In case of emergency, do NOT send me to a Catholic hospital"

Pregnant women used to carry a card with this statement on their person, because it was common knowledge that the Catholic hospital would save the baby and let the woman die. Nothing has changed, really.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:25 PM

40. St Vincents in Manhattan closed and the lower Manhattan has been paying for it ever since.

 

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:28 PM

42. I'm not religious, but I've been treated great at catholic non profit hospitals

The people seem to be nicer and way more thorough. Just last March I was information 9 days getting tested for all kinds of things. They took care of me and helped with financials to get it written off as charity. I only had to pay two specialists I saw.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:34 PM

43. Don't let any religious entity run hospitals

Medicine is science.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:45 PM

45. I was born in a catholic hospital with nuns for nurses. n/t

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 09:57 PM

49. The Stranger ran a similar story a couple months ago

Faith Healers

Catholics Are Taking Over Local Hospitals, Imposing Their Faith on Your Health Care, and Planning to Deny Certain Treatments for Patients Who Are Pregnant or Dying

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/faith-healers/Content?oid=16050396

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:10 PM

55. I can't disagree, but...

There have been Catholic hospitals for years.

Methodist too.

If all they are doing is treating people regardless of faith and without injecting religion then I don't care who owns the place.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2013, 10:15 PM

57. One of the best hospitals in SF is ...

St. Mary's Hospital on Stanyan street.

If I still lived in The City, I'd be going there. Great hospital with fine care and an even finer staff! St. Mary's!!



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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 06:16 PM

63. Yes, women DIE because of horrific Catholic bullshit.

Look at the case in Ireland, for example. And those links give many examples in this country. I hate the Catholic Church and their barbaric beliefs. In some communities, there are no other options, so women who need reproductive services are screwed. If they receive federal funds, which they do with Medicare and Medicaid, they need to cover everything covered by those programs. Or stop taking the money.

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Response to alarimer (Reply #63)

Mon May 27, 2013, 07:40 PM

67. +1

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 07:06 PM

65. There's a Catholic hospital in my area, it's a very good hospital. My father was

there and he was treated very well.

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Response to Dawson Leery (Original post)

Mon May 27, 2013, 09:21 PM

68. Where should I go if I'm in Memphis?

There is exactly one non-church owned facility in the metro area (Catholic, Baptist, and Methodist run the rest), and its a small surgical center.

The nearest major non-church hospital is in Tupelo, MS, 100 miles away, and they aren't a university hospital. The nearest non-church children's hospital is 250mi away in Jackson MS.

Note... St. Jude's isn't a church hospital, but its a research center not a general admission hospital.

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