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Wed May 22, 2013, 07:15 AM

1.4 MILLION per school? for shelters? Are they on the crack-pipe?

According to a report on Morning Joe, this is the expected additional cost for shelters at schools..


http://www.containeralliance.com/informative-articles/shipping-container-prices/used-shipping-container-prices-and-costs/

I would guess that ANY parent would be glad to sign a waiver if each school had several buried containers (some as little as $1500 each)

For a few precious minutes, surely they would be better off in one, than hugging a wall or cowering under a sink..

There might even be parents who would volunteer the use of equipment them may have access to, and their labor to dig a space for burying them..

interesting link about saving school kids.. nothing fancy..just life-saving.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/earth/killer-tornado-1928.html



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Reply 1.4 MILLION per school? for shelters? Are they on the crack-pipe? (Original post)
SoCalDem May 2013 OP
BlueToTheBone May 2013 #1
SoCalDem May 2013 #2
kentuck May 2013 #3
MrsMatt May 2013 #26
indepat May 2013 #51
BlueToTheBone May 2013 #5
formercia May 2013 #25
winter is coming May 2013 #4
kentauros May 2013 #7
BlueToTheBone May 2013 #9
kentauros May 2013 #13
KansDem May 2013 #10
BlueToTheBone May 2013 #12
kentauros May 2013 #15
wercal May 2013 #32
wercal May 2013 #30
galileoreloaded May 2013 #35
wercal May 2013 #36
galileoreloaded May 2013 #37
wercal May 2013 #39
galileoreloaded May 2013 #42
wercal May 2013 #46
galileoreloaded May 2013 #47
godai May 2013 #6
kentauros May 2013 #11
BlueToTheBone May 2013 #14
kentauros May 2013 #16
BlueToTheBone May 2013 #17
kentauros May 2013 #19
godai May 2013 #21
kentauros May 2013 #23
Niceguy1 May 2013 #8
hlthe2b May 2013 #18
kentauros May 2013 #20
n2doc May 2013 #22
Niceguy1 May 2013 #24
formercia May 2013 #29
n2doc May 2013 #38
Niceguy1 May 2013 #50
FSogol May 2013 #27
SoCalDem May 2013 #28
wercal May 2013 #31
galileoreloaded May 2013 #33
SoCalDem May 2013 #43
galileoreloaded May 2013 #45
taught_me_patience May 2013 #34
RedEarth May 2013 #40
SoCalDem May 2013 #44
kelliekat44 May 2013 #41
Lady Freedom Returns May 2013 #48
FarCenter May 2013 #49

Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:19 AM

1. The main problem with underground shelters is that you

can't dig in the ground. The soil is kolachi clay and is so hard that is why most houses there have no basement. They build above ground "safe rooms" and they are more costly.

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #1)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:23 AM

2. That "issue" was discussed ad nauseum yesterday

If you NEED to and you WANT to, you CAN.

Or you can roll the dice.. and maybe end up with a smaller family

No one is going to LIVE in the damned containers/shelters. It may never even be used.

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Response to SoCalDem (Reply #2)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:27 AM

3. The schools could also be community shelters.

and that would make them more cost worthy.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #3)

Wed May 22, 2013, 09:11 AM

26. That's what they did in Wadena Minnesota

They had an EF-4 tornado wipe out the school in 2010.

When they rebuilt, they put in a $1.2 million storm shelter (to withstand an EF-5), with a capacity of 500 more than the school enrollment. So it is open for the community as well.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #3)

Wed May 22, 2013, 06:30 PM

51. Doubt Oklahoma pols will ever tamp down egregious oil-industry subsidies to fund shelters

in schools: such wouldn't be politically cost-effective.

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Response to SoCalDem (Reply #2)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:31 AM

5. If you have that other thing...money to do what you want and need to do.

I had no electricity yesterday from the storms and didn't know the ad nauseum...Yeah! Something great about being without power. I used to live around there and the "hardpan" is really hard.

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Response to SoCalDem (Reply #2)

Wed May 22, 2013, 09:10 AM

25. I used my Tornado Shelter for a Darkroom

It was part of a 1930's era house in Western Oklahoma City. I was taking photo courses at the time.

Many old-timers used the shelters as a storage area for food, since the temperature was relatively stable. I was able to keep mine within a degree F. Once it came up to temperature, it took very little power to keep it at temp since the surrounding Earth acted as a thermal mass.

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #1)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:28 AM

4. +1. This describes it well, IMO.

Some people say the word “caliche” is Spanish for “what in the name of ##**%##! is this ##$**!” In reality, caliche is a hard, compacted soil cemented together by calcium carbonate (lime.) Cemented is the defining word here. If you run into caliche, you will need at least one of the following: jackhammer, dynamite, or a willingness to change the location of the hole.

www.smilingdoglandscapes.com/articles/Soil%20&%20Caliche.pdf


So no, they're not on the crack pipe. I used to live in Austin, and they used dynamite to blast out holes for foundations, and that was just for houses built on a slab, not something with an actual basement. If you wanted to install a mailbox, you used a 6' crowbar to slowly dig out a hole, placed the mailbox pole, put the loose caleche around it, and added water. No cement necessary.

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #1)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:37 AM

7. You've inadvertently spelled "kolache"

and that would certainly make for an interesting soil problem:






Caliche is is nature's concrete. However, machines like this make short work of it and other (harder) trenching/digging situations:



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Response to kentauros (Reply #7)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:44 AM

9. lol! I'm hungry

Thanks for pointing that out.

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #9)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:47 AM

13. No problem!

Now, I'm hungry, too, and there aren't any bakeries here that make 'em like in central Texas

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #1)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:44 AM

10. "...you can't dig in the ground."

But isn't that where the tar sands pipeline is going to go?

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Response to KansDem (Reply #10)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:46 AM

12. Well, they have all the money in the world and

can do what ever they please...no interference from the whole world seems to be able to stop them!

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Response to KansDem (Reply #10)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:50 AM

15. Your average homeowner won't be able to rent a trencher as pictured above,

and do a little weekend digging. And enterprising equipment renting company might figure out they could make such machines available though, with or without a trained operator.

However, those trenching and grinding machines can cut through damn near any soil type or geology. Getting a pipeline in the ground is what they're designed for.

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Response to KansDem (Reply #10)

Wed May 22, 2013, 10:10 AM

32. As we speak, Pipeline is Being Built in Oklahoma

Just about every leg of the pipeline is being built, except the Nebraska piece.

Some on this board have formed a narrative that there is some sort of force field in the state that prevents digging.

They used to do alot of mining in Oklahoma...

The gas stations in Oklahoma somehow have underground tanks...

You can dig in Oklahoma.

I designed a ALCO store in Shattuck, and we had to cut 15 feet of hillside away, to level it out. There was no problem doing this.

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #1)

Wed May 22, 2013, 09:59 AM

30. This was discussed yesterday

I'm a civil engineer...there is nothing radically difficult about building a basement in Oklahoma. In fact, 1 in 10 houses have one there.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Examples of underground installations throughout Oklahoma include:

Basements in 10% of houses

Storage tanks at just about every stinking gas station

Thousands of miles of sanitary sewer pipe

Hundreds of miles of underground petroleum pipeline

Thousands of Septic tanks

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Response to wercal (Reply #30)

Wed May 22, 2013, 10:15 AM

35. hmmmm. my civil engineer friend from OK

 

it should be simple for you to quote PSF pricing for a basement with appropriate ADA and IBC requirements for a public school.

im thinking around $400-600 based on hard dig and/or water table mitigation but id love your input.

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Response to galileoreloaded (Reply #35)

Wed May 22, 2013, 10:44 AM

36. I'm actually from Kansas

I did do a retail store in Shattuck, Ok once...cut away 15 feet of a hillside, and there was nothing particularly difficult about it.

Now in all reality, I think retrofitted shelters at the schools will be above ground. We did one at an elementary school, where we added two classrooms onto a wing of the school. They were made of concrete, with bulletproof windows. So, it was a 'twofer'...we added new space, but made it into a shelter that wouls squeeze in all the students at the school. But I'd say $400-$500 psf for the above ground is about right (this is a finished space).

And, if you had to go underground, I'd say it would be in the same price range, as an unfinished space. ADA...that I would have to research. Assuming that power would likely go out, I'm not sure the an elevator is really useful. There are chairs with stair crawling tracks on them, used to evacuate buildings in the event of an emergency. Keeping a few of these at the top of the stairs may suffice, since going down into the shelter is an emergency situation.

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Response to wercal (Reply #36)

Wed May 22, 2013, 10:50 AM

37. so it sounds like we are close.

 

and over a million for a shelter is ABSOLUTELY reasonable considering then that NFPA rules for ingress/egress will apply as well.

my point is for the OP and others to understand that shit is expensive to do right, and putting our kids in buried septic tanks devoid of any engineering for habitable use is ignorant and dangerous; and decisions of that magnitude should be left to the adults.

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Response to galileoreloaded (Reply #37)

Wed May 22, 2013, 12:56 PM

39. For my personal use

I have absolutely considered a septic tank.

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Response to wercal (Reply #39)

Wed May 22, 2013, 02:29 PM

42. snd you should because you are an engineer

 

but i wouldn't shove your kids into one. all i am saying

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Response to galileoreloaded (Reply #42)

Wed May 22, 2013, 04:36 PM

46. I wouldn't have a problem putting my kids in a tank either

Its just a precast concrete vault, buried in the ground - it should be very effective.

I think your objection to the OP is the idea of putting multiple small pods buried outside next to a school...and there are some problems with that, purely from the perspective that its hard to control small children and get them grouped up and running to the correct pod...and in general it would be better to have the shelter interior to the building, so nobody has to dash outside.

But every one of the photos in the OP looks like a viable shelter for home use.

I actually think the $1.2 million is on the high side...and the what we have added these things to schools is not purely as a shelter, but dual use, like adding a hardened classroom on to the end of a building. So, its just an additional expense when adding on to the school - not a stand alone expense with no benefit, unless a storm comes.

But even at $1.2 million, this is not an unsurmountable cost. These things can be bonded for 20 years, so the debt service would be something like $70k a year...not much more than the cost of one senior teaching position (not that they would actually have to lose a position, since the operating costs for schools are seperate from the capital costs, which are usually only paid by special mill levies, after a referendum election).

So, looking at the ballot meaure...Moore, Ok has 23 schools...and 40k people which is about 19k households. The total cost would be $27.6 million, with an annual debt service $1.61 million....or (assuming all houses in Moore had the same value) around $7 per month additional property taxes. I think most people would vote 'yes' on that ballot measure.

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Response to wercal (Reply #46)

Wed May 22, 2013, 04:38 PM

47. i agree w you completely. just a huge issue with the ignorance sometimes. nt

 

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:35 AM

6. Rebuild homes each with above ground shelter.

They showed a family who had one of these...$3-5,000 was the stated price. It's concrete and steel.

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Response to godai (Reply #6)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:45 AM

11. I would hope, then, that such an above-ground structure

would be well-attached/anchored to underground (and maybe bell-bottomed) reinforced concrete footings. Otherwise it'll end up tossed around like that oil vessel shown in one image on top of another house. And we're talking about your "average" oil industry vessel often made of half- to one-inch thick plate steel. It was the size of a railcar, yet tossed around like everything else.

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Response to kentauros (Reply #11)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:48 AM

14. those storms are amazing, aren't they?

Humans think they are so powerful and then are completely humbled by real power.

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #14)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:52 AM

16. At the same time we also make things that blow up spectacularly.

I recall a railroad accident in the 1970s where propane rail cars were shooting into the air like rockets

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Response to kentauros (Reply #16)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:54 AM

17. Wow! I'm glad I missed that!

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #17)

Wed May 22, 2013, 08:05 AM

19. I can't find anything on it, as I don't recall enough details.

Industrial accidents can be visually spectacular, or not, yet create large evacuations. In 1987, there was a hydrofluoric acid leak in Texas City. I remember seeing satellite images of it much later showing the path it took. All vegetation along that path was dead, including trees. If they'd had people "shelter in place", well, no one would have survived.

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Response to kentauros (Reply #11)

Wed May 22, 2013, 08:24 AM

21. It is concrete and steel.

Looked like there was a concrete base in the ground. Worked fine for the family that they interviewed.

For example:

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Response to godai (Reply #21)

Wed May 22, 2013, 08:32 AM

23. Okay, so it's partially buried.

Maybe it's the manufacturer calling it "above ground", but I wouldn't classify it that way. It looks like at least half of it is meant to be below ground, which is good. The ground makes an excellent shelter if done right

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:41 AM

8. can't do waivers

Nd whatever that is done must meet code and have sufficient capacity. The 1.4 million sounds aboutnright for an average sized school.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 07:57 AM

18. Would those protect against flooding, if buried?

I think it is the heavy walled concrete that makes the tornado shelters so expensive, as they appear to be built to withstand a nuclear blast (which, I guess, in terms of strength these EF5 tornadoes approach)....

Apparently the metal doors of cellars are vulnerable to being ripped off, so not sure about these shipping containers...
Since several kids drowned in the basement of the one school, that would be an issue as well.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #18)

Wed May 22, 2013, 08:10 AM

20. I wonder about that when I see these suggestions.

If it's built above ground, it's going to need heavy-duty anchoring, and that's cost-prohibitive to home-owners. Schools should be able to get any funding they like (whether that's always the case or not.)

And yes, the reinforced concrete shelters would likely survive a nuclear blast. If they're above ground, they have the added benefit of not being buried under debris, but can become a target for that same debris. I would hope there are better designers than us that understand how to create, build, and install shelters that take these factors into consideration

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 08:27 AM

22. And the loss of even 1 child if they aren't built?

First, its only money. And OK has plenty, if they wished to tax the oil producers and 1% a bit more. Second, the lawsuits alone will cost a school district far more, if they have a school without a shelter available, and it gets hit. I suspect insurance rates will be far higher for shelter-less schools, as well.

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Response to n2doc (Reply #22)

Wed May 22, 2013, 09:06 AM

24. acts of nature

Who can you sue , God??? The schools arent liable for the causualties.

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #24)

Wed May 22, 2013, 09:16 AM

29. Protecting them from harm is not in 'God's' Job Description

$3-5000 added to the cost of a new home is not much for real protection and it will make do as a temporary shelter after the home is blown away.

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #24)

Wed May 22, 2013, 12:53 PM

38. The state is

If they build a school in a known hazard area without a plan/safe area, and disaster happens, they will get sued, and lose.

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Response to n2doc (Reply #38)

Wed May 22, 2013, 05:08 PM

50. does the law require a safe area?

If not then sorry.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 09:12 AM

27. They would have to be handicap accessible too. $1.4 million sounds right.

Remember that price includes design, planning, construction, etc. Not just the cost of materials.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #27)

Wed May 22, 2013, 09:15 AM

28. Well, I guess funerals are cheaper..

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 10:03 AM

31. When we designed the new gym addition to our high school

We got a $100,000 grant from FEMA to harden some areas under bleachers and in locker rooms as a storm shelter.

We viewed it as a net gain to the budget, since these improvements did not cost the full hundred grand.

So $1.2 million seems very high.

We also added two classrooms to an elementary school wing, made of concrete. They were big enough to hold the whole school population. I don't remember the price tag; but, I'm sure it was well under a million.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 10:11 AM

33. seriously?

 

not only have you demonstrated you don't have a grasp of basic civil engineering precepts even when thoroughly pointed out, but now you are demonstrating that you have no clue what things actually cost, and by default are suggesting that our schools disregard building code standards and standards of construction....

....to put our children in underground coffins that wont stay in the ground?

seriously, stop promoting this ignorance.

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Response to galileoreloaded (Reply #33)

Wed May 22, 2013, 03:40 PM

43. You first

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Response to SoCalDem (Reply #43)

Wed May 22, 2013, 03:43 PM

45. well, me and the civil engineer from kansas already debunked your thread

 

soooooo.... laugh away. just keep your uninformed ideas away from my kids *shrug

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 10:14 AM

34. I hope they get NO federal money for this

 

This is a state issue and people of their own state should pay for it (especially when the state gives huge tax breaks to oil companies).

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 01:18 PM

40. I live in Oklahoma City and have looked at having an underground shelter put in

my house and have found the majority of them cost between $3,000-4,000 for a 4'x8' shelter. An above ground safe room costs nearly the same...however, some can go as high as $10,000...plus you have to have room for an above ground safe room...not feasible in my case. Not sure where you are coming up with the $1,500 figure, but I would like to contact them since that is substantially less than what I had been quoted.

As far as $1.4 for a school shelter or safe room, I'm not sure exactly what type of construction they are talking about or how large it would be. Most schools in the metro OKC area have a student count of 200 to 2,000 students, so obviously the cost per school will be dependent upon the size of the school.

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Response to RedEarth (Reply #40)

Wed May 22, 2013, 03:42 PM

44. the figure came from the link I posted

from the container resale people..for what would be a very rudimentary shelter

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 01:23 PM

41. No, "they" aren't on crack. The building contractors are! nt

 

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 04:53 PM

48. One) Shipping container won't really cut it.

Two) Land one needs to make the shelters cost. Not all schools have that much land to begin with.

It sounds so easy, but it is not.

Even getting to the shelters in time (if they are outside shelters), may killed more people/kids. Tornados can be on the ground of a long or very,VERY short amount of time. There are times when the tornado forms so fast, right on top of the victim's, that there is no time.

And this is not even the start of the problems. This is something that seems simple, but when you start to really dig into it, it is far from simple.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Wed May 22, 2013, 04:58 PM

49. $400,000 to construct a shelter and $1,000,000 to do it compliant with all rules and regs

 

To say nothing about the various fees, permits, legal paperwork, etc., etc.,

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