Sat May 11, 2013, 08:37 PM

The great lie about women...

Why I Hate Mothers Day
Anne Lamott
It celebrates the great lie about women: That those with children are more important than those without

http://www.salon.com/2010/05/08/hate_mothers_day_anne_lamott/

124 replies, 16533 views

Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread

Reply to this thread

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum

Replies to this discussion thread

124 replies	Author	Time	Post
The great lie about women... (Original post)	loyalsister	May 2013	OP
Is that true for Father's Day as well? nt	Bonobo	May 2013	#1
Father's day	LostOne4Ever	May 2013	#6
Sad, but...	Bonobo	May 2013	#11
Good point	loyalsister	May 2013	#34
And Mother's Day was dictated on Mt Sinai?	Bluenorthwest	May 2013	#16
if William Jackson Smart was from Arkansas	hfojvt	May 2013	#82
not much newer than mother's day. and mother's day also an artificial holiday to make money.	HiPointDem	May 2013	#113
we would all be interested to read such an article on father's day, when you find it.	niyad	May 2013	#7
Oh.	Bonobo	May 2013	#8
I don't know	loyalsister	May 2013	#14
Yes.	smirkymonkey	May 2013	#80
Very good question. As a life long bachelor, I'll weigh in	WhaTHellsgoingonhere	May 2013	#109
k and r for a most interesting read!!	niyad	May 2013	#2
Thanks	loyalsister	May 2013	#15
This part rings true for me:	Awknid	May 2013	#41
Then they have never had a dog.	smirkymonkey	May 2013	#96
how could anyone know the statistical number of a secret held, and not shared?	seabeyond	May 2013	#100
I have no kids...	a la izquierda	May 2013	#3
I LOVE "drink and watch TV" days	Skittles	May 2013	#22
Yeah, it's been tough.	a la izquierda	May 2013	#89
Happy Drink and Watch TV Day...	awoke_in_2003	May 2013	#58
Thanks.	a la izquierda	May 2013	#88
Are there cards for that?	panader0	May 2013	#98
There should be...	awoke_in_2003	May 2013	#106
Cheers!	smirkymonkey	May 2013	#81
or, it's just a day for those that do instead of for those who don't nt	msongs	May 2013	#4
I never looked at Mother's Day in that way.	Buzz Clik	May 2013	#5
Obviously that not the explicit intention	loyalsister	May 2013	#10
There's the theory (probably proven) that the idea of witches has to do with post-menopausal	Boomerproud	May 2013	#18
Another theory	loyalsister	May 2013	#23
Only a small portion of the population is "fixated" on pro-life issues. n/t	pnwmom	May 2013	#36
The point is to offer some explanation	loyalsister	May 2013	#39
I hate the term "miracle of child birth"...	awoke_in_2003	May 2013	#62
The miracle Is that we can survive it.	bravenak	May 2013	#76
I've always noticed	Awknid	May 2013	#47
And	loyalsister	May 2013	#60
More than once I've heard in one form or another, "You don't have children;	sarge43	May 2013	#86
Really!	Lydia Leftcoast	May 2013	#104
I agree	BainsBane	May 2013	#29
very nice. A good daughter.	Buzz Clik	May 2013	#35
I'm also a childless woman.	tammywammy	May 2013	#50
Mother's Day was started by mothers	tblue	May 2013	#77
Very elegantly stated.	Buzz Clik	May 2013	#78
I have a daughter	Dorian Gray	May 2013	#87
I have a mother. She is 88.	MineralMan	May 2013	#9
I guess Birthdays are saying those who were born that day are more important than those who aren't?	uppityperson	May 2013	#12
Um...Apples and oranges. EVERYONE gets a birthday, and so gets to celebrate a holiday--	Moonwalk	May 2013	#72
"It should go without saying that I also hate Valentine’s Day."	cherokeeprogressive	May 2013	#13
Thank you! That is right in the gold	Demeter	May 2013	#43
there's joy in Valentine's Day?	hfojvt	May 2013	#83
I'm so sick of these snarky, cynical articles.	GreenEyedLefty	May 2013	#17
What a baffling and needless article.	Number23	May 2013	#19
Being a mother doesnt just mean having children.......people mother pets.....spouses...	Gin	May 2013	#20
Good point	loyalsister	May 2013	#24
I celebrate mother's day with all the motherly people I know, it's not about biology.	freshwest	May 2013	#40
Great post. nt	raccoon	May 2013	#92
I don't have kids and I don't see it that way	Skittles	May 2013	#21
I don't have kids either	loyalsister	May 2013	#26
Every single one of us has a mother	boston bean	May 2013	#25
+1	October	May 2013	#38
unless myself is a mother	hfojvt	May 2013	#85
+1	redqueen	May 2013	#101
...and secretaries' day...	cyberswede	May 2013	#27
This message was self-deleted by its author	RobertEarl	May 2013	#28
To each his own I guess, but I don't agree.	Avalux	May 2013	#30
I don't think the author is calling for activism	loyalsister	May 2013	#33
Geez, that first paragraph is more telling than the entire article...	cynatnite	May 2013	#31
Too bad there wasn't a sarcasm tag in the article	loyalsister	May 2013	#32
You are right. n/t	cynatnite	May 2013	#44
Yeah, lot of pain leaking out there. Save hate for mosquitoes, that's my motto.	freshwest	May 2013	#42
Some mosquitoes are mothers too, you know.	klook	May 2013	#71
Yup, they need extra blood for reproduction. Sorry. Smack!	freshwest	May 2013	#73
But they are more important	Politicalboi	May 2013	#37
Right	Awknid	May 2013	#52
Here, here! I have no children and probably too old to have any. Mother's Day reminds me that I am a	Liberal_Stalwart71	May 2013	#45
It's like Boston Bean said -	mercymechap	May 2013	#54
They're lucky to have a Mom like you! Happy Mother's Day!!	Liberal_Stalwart71	May 2013	#56
Thank You!	mercymechap	May 2013	#69
I can't bear the thought of what my sister will go through tomorrow	graywarrior	May 2013	#46
I hate the Olympics too.	Nye Bevan	May 2013	#48
Basically	BeyondGeography	May 2013	#55
Different	treestar	May 2013	#63
The common thread is that we all had a mother	WHEN CRABS ROAR	May 2013	#49
Laughable	BeyondGeography	May 2013	#51
Exactly	FBaggins	May 2013	#59
Geez, not everything is a	mercymechap	May 2013	#53
no the great lie we celebrate is that we value mothers	La Lioness Priyanka	May 2013	#57
I don't think those facts are unrecognized by reasonable people	loyalsister	May 2013	#65
i think they are very much unrecognized by most people	La Lioness Priyanka	May 2013	#67
I suppose one could argue that most people aren't reasonable.	loyalsister	May 2013	#68
Good point. nt	raccoon	May 2013	#93
should I cancel my plans with Mom for tomorrow?	arely staircase	May 2013	#61
Call her and tell her that she's no more important than anyone else.	Orrex	May 2013	#99
yeah, no kidding	arely staircase	May 2013	#107
Britta from Community can tell you all about it!	TampaAnimusVortex	May 2013	#64
Those with children are not more important than those without	treestar	May 2013	#66
I've heard about 7 or 8 variations on this theme today	gollygee	May 2013	#70
I think there's a distinction between "important" and "valued"	loyalsister	May 2013	#75
What a sad way to look at things.	kickysnana	May 2013	#74
I just visited my friends tonight who are parents	BrotherIvan	May 2013	#79
Mother's day Sucks.	Lady Freedom Returns	May 2013	#84
Sorry that is happening to you, esp. what your father said to you, that was cruel.	raccoon	May 2013	#94
I'm always glad that I did not have kids.	roody	May 2013	#97
I am willfully barren	loyalsister	May 2013	#114
Haters gotta hate, I guess	Seeking Serenity	May 2013	#90
Is that wholly a lie?	Donald Ian Rankin	May 2013	#91
Hormones during gestation and lactation change mom's brains	FarCenter	May 2013	#95
I like a lot about Anne Lamott but I think this is absurd.	nolabear	May 2013	#102
Oh god	LittleBlue	May 2013	#103
You're completely missing the point of the article...	shcrane71	May 2013	#108
You're right. We would never celebrate fathers being good at raising kids	LittleBlue	May 2013	#110
I have always been amazed	loyalsister	May 2013	#111
What do you want?	LittleBlue	May 2013	#117
A civil conversation maybe?	loyalsister	May 2013	#119
Thank you. It is impossible to have a civil conversation with	shcrane71	May 2013	#121
Anne Lamott needs some context.	LWolf	May 2013	#105
and does father's day say the same about men? stupid article.	HiPointDem	May 2013	#112
I have notidea	loyalsister	May 2013	#116
Maybe it's not about celebrating you. It's about celebrating your mom. n/t	lumberjack_jeff	May 2013	#115
I don't think anyone has or would	loyalsister	May 2013	#118
Spoiled much?	GeorgeGist	May 2013	#120
Our nation should do more than declaring a working holiday to help women	shcrane71	May 2013	#122
Absolutely	loyalsister	May 2013	#123
I disagree - it is intended to celebrate your mother, not yourself	LeftishBrit	Nov 2013	#124

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:38 PM

Bonobo (29,131 posts)

1. Is that true for Father's Day as well? nt

Reply to this post

Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:42 PM

LostOne4Ever (8,166 posts)

6. Father's day

Father's day is a relatively new and artificial holiday created to make corporations money:

http://www.cracked.com/article_20324_5-basic-facts-life-were-made-up-by-marketing-campaigns_p2.html?wa_user1=1&wa_user2=Movies+%26+TV&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=companion

Reply to this post

Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #6)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:45 PM

Bonobo (29,131 posts)

11. Sad, but...

All holidays are made up.

The sad thing is that some feel fathers don't deserve a thanks as much as mothers.

Reply to this post

Response to Bonobo (Reply #11)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:31 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

34. Good point

And exactly part of what the article was getting at.

Reply to this post

Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #6)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:00 PM

Bluenorthwest (45,319 posts)

16. And Mother's Day was dictated on Mt Sinai?

"The modern holiday of Mother's Day was first celebrated in 1908, when Anna Jarvis held a memorial for her mother in Grafton, West Virginia. She then began a campaign to make "Mother's Day" a recognized holiday in the United States. Although she was successful in 1914, she was already disappointed with its commercialization by the 1920s."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother%27s_Day
"Father's Day was founded in Spokane, Washington at the YMCA in 1910 by Sonora Smart Dodd, who was born in Arkansas.[3] Its first celebration was in the Spokane YMCA on June 19, 1910.[3][4] Her father, the Civil War veteran William Jackson Smart, was a single parent who raised his six children there.[3] After hearing a sermon about Jarvis' Mother's Day in 1909, she told her pastor that fathers should have a similar holiday honoring them.[3] Although she initially suggested June 5, her father's birthday, the pastors did not have enough time to prepare their sermons, and the celebration was deferred to the third Sunday of June."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father%27s_Day

Reply to this post

Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #16)

Sun May 12, 2013, 05:29 AM

hfojvt (37,474 posts)

82. if William Jackson Smart was from Arkansas

wouldn't he have been a "Civil War Veteran" from the CSA?

Whoops, okay, I guess not. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=45306602

Reply to this post

Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #6)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:07 PM

HiPointDem (20,729 posts)

113. not much newer than mother's day. and mother's day also an artificial holiday to make money.

both promoted by the same person.

jesus mary and joseph.

Reply to this post

Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:42 PM

niyad (62,462 posts)

7. we would all be interested to read such an article on father's day, when you find it.

Reply to this post

Response to niyad (Reply #7)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:43 PM

Bonobo (29,131 posts)

8. Oh.

Reply to this post

Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:50 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

14. I don't know

I do know that men are valued according to their relationships with their children in complex ways.

Reply to this post

Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:48 AM

smirkymonkey (30,742 posts)

80. Yes.

Reply to this post

Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sun May 12, 2013, 03:07 PM

WhaTHellsgoingonhere (5,252 posts)

109. Very good question. As a life long bachelor, I'll weigh in

Never married, no children. Anecdotally, a woman wouldn't get the kudos I receive for never marrying or having children. Maybe in a 100 years, but we won't be around for to witness that.

That being said, you raise an excellent point and my comment is merely an anecdote.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:38 PM

niyad (62,462 posts)

2. k and r for a most interesting read!!

Reply to this post

Response to niyad (Reply #2)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:54 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

15. Thanks

I had never thought of it that way. I send my mom, sisters, and grandma cards. I also recognize my friends who are mothers. I see this as analogous to Veteran's Day. I don't hate veterans (or mothers), but I am aware of the fact that they are valued more than average citizens.

Reply to this post

Response to niyad (Reply #2)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:45 PM

Awknid (381 posts)

41. This part rings true for me:

"Ninety-eight percent of American parents secretly feel that if you have not had and raised a child, your capacity for love is somehow diminished. Ninety-eight percent of American parents secretly believe that non-parents cannot possibly know what it is to love unconditionally, to be selfless, to put yourself at risk for the gravest loss. "

Reply to this post

Response to Awknid (Reply #41)

Sun May 12, 2013, 10:07 AM

smirkymonkey (30,742 posts)

96. Then they have never had a dog.

The most unconditional love ever.

Reply to this post

Response to Awknid (Reply #41)

Sun May 12, 2013, 11:18 AM

seabeyond (110,159 posts)

100. how could anyone know the statistical number of a secret held, and not shared?

that is ridiculous. a ridiculous number and conclusion

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:39 PM

a la izquierda (9,977 posts)

3. I have no kids...

Tomorrow will be great for my mom and sisters. Meh, I'll just drink and watch TV (it's been a very rough week).

Reply to this post

Response to a la izquierda (Reply #3)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:10 PM

Skittles (119,813 posts)

22. I LOVE "drink and watch TV" days

I do that on my "very rough weeks" too

Reply to this post

Response to Skittles (Reply #22)

Sun May 12, 2013, 07:09 AM

a la izquierda (9,977 posts)

89. Yeah, it's been tough.

My grandmother has dementia and refuses to go into a nursing home. My poor mom...

Reply to this post

Response to a la izquierda (Reply #3)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:34 PM

awoke_in_2003 (34,582 posts)

58. Happy Drink and Watch TV Day...

Reply to this post

Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #58)

Sun May 12, 2013, 07:09 AM

a la izquierda (9,977 posts)

88. Thanks.

I intend to enjoy it. It will probably be the last with my grandmother, and then all my grandparents will have passed.

Reply to this post

Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #58)

Sun May 12, 2013, 10:28 AM

panader0 (17,302 posts)

98. Are there cards for that?

Reply to this post

Response to panader0 (Reply #98)

Sun May 12, 2013, 01:08 PM

awoke_in_2003 (34,582 posts)

106. There should be...

Reply to this post

Response to a la izquierda (Reply #3)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:57 AM

smirkymonkey (30,742 posts)

81. Cheers!

Happy to be single and childless!

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:40 PM

msongs (46,456 posts)

4. or, it's just a day for those that do instead of for those who don't nt

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:41 PM

Buzz Clik (38,437 posts)

5. I never looked at Mother's Day in that way.

I really don't think that's the intention today's celebration.

Reply to this post

Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #5)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:45 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

10. Obviously that not the explicit intention

But there is no doubt that women who are mothers are valued more than women who aren't. Otherwise I don't think there would be such fixation on bringing every pregnancy to term.

The idea isn't to slam mothers, it's just to consider the contrast in how women are treated.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Reply #10)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:01 PM

Boomerproud (2,863 posts)

18. There's the theory (probably proven) that the idea of witches has to do with post-menopausal

women-thus they are no longer valuable and sold their souls for powers. I am childless (not by choice) but I will celebrate my mom tomorrow so that her day is special.

Reply to this post

Response to Boomerproud (Reply #18)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:13 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

23. Another theory

based in anthropology that explains why we live beyond menopause is the grandmother theory. Post-menopausal survival was selected for because the contributions of grandmothers are essential for survival.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Reply #10)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:33 PM

pnwmom (89,992 posts)

36. Only a small portion of the population is "fixated" on pro-life issues. n/t

Reply to this post

Response to pnwmom (Reply #36)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:41 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

39. The point is to offer some explanation

The "miracle of childbirth" is a construct that is revered by both pro-life and pro-choice people.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Reply #39)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:36 PM

awoke_in_2003 (34,582 posts)

62. I hate the term "miracle of child birth"...

If over 40% of the population (I am allowing for infertility) can do it, it isn't a miracle.

Reply to this post

Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #62)

Sun May 12, 2013, 01:02 AM

bravenak (34,648 posts)

76. The miracle Is that we can survive it.

I almost died twice. I still didn't think it was a miracle.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Reply #10)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:55 PM

Awknid (381 posts)

47. I've always noticed

Women with children being hostile toward the childless by acting as though they are superior. It often comes across as resentment and jealousy. And I wonder if they even consider that they might not have been able to have children? I mean, they assume the childless women must be horrible? It's fascinating!

Reply to this post

Response to Awknid (Reply #47)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:35 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

60. And

I think most of us know or have friends who got pregnant to equalize themselves (my sister) among friends. Or, my old friend who got pregnant because she thought her boyfriend would value her more.
The point is that as far as social constructs go, motherhood is one that has broader implications than being a parent.

Reply to this post

Response to Awknid (Reply #47)

Sun May 12, 2013, 06:47 AM

sarge43 (24,140 posts)

86. More than once I've heard in one form or another, "You don't have children;

what's wrong?". Always from other women. My husband has never been asked "what's wrong?" by anyone.

I have no problem with Mother's Day. However, for very personal reasons millions of women don't have children and we're not lesser beings because of it.

Reply to this post

Response to Awknid (Reply #47)

Sun May 12, 2013, 11:44 AM

Lydia Leftcoast (48,217 posts)

104. Really!

My own mother was always very snide when talking about women who chose not to have children.

Reply to this post

Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #5)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:21 PM

BainsBane (43,781 posts)

29. I agree

and I'm a woman without children. For me it's a day to extend appreciation to my own mother, only I took her out to dinner tonight instead.

Reply to this post

Response to BainsBane (Reply #29)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:33 PM

Buzz Clik (38,437 posts)

35. very nice. A good daughter.

Reply to this post

Response to BainsBane (Reply #29)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:04 PM

tammywammy (26,343 posts)

50. I'm also a childless woman.

I'll celebrate by borrowing my mom's pickup truck to get a new washer & dryer. I'll fill up the gas tank.

Heh.

Reply to this post

Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #5)

Sun May 12, 2013, 01:14 AM

tblue (16,350 posts)

77. Mother's Day was started by mothers

in response to all the deaths of their sons in the Civil War. It's continued because housewives, lots of whom are mothers, have these difficult thankless jobs, and somebody wanted to remedy that, at least for one day a year. Do non-moms work thankless jobs too? Of course. So do a lot of men. I like Ann Lamott, but this piece is a little overthunk, IMHO. If women feel badly that they aren't mothers, then it can be a sad day. I get that of couse. If women choose not to have children, I guess some might not want to see children and mothers enjoy a holiday based on something they don't desired. But it seems kinda odd that anyone would begrudge others celebrating people they love. Maybe we need more holidays for more categories of people so no one feels left out.

It's not that I don't see the point Ann Lamott is making. It's just I don't see why she wants no one else to celebrate Mother!'s Day. If you do, great. If you don't, that's great too. There are many things people have that I'd like to have and don't, but does that mean they should hide their happiness so it doesn't bother me? Heck no. I wouldn't even want that.

Reply to this post

Response to tblue (Reply #77)

Sun May 12, 2013, 01:21 AM

Buzz Clik (38,437 posts)

78. Very elegantly stated.

Thank you.

Reply to this post

Response to tblue (Reply #77)

Sun May 12, 2013, 06:56 AM

Dorian Gray (9,711 posts)

87. I have a daughter

and a mother. And all I want to do is chill out, maybe watch a half hour of television, and hug my daughter when she'll deign to hug me today. (That's pretty much every day!)

I certainly don't think I'm more special than any other woman out there. (With or without children.)

I realize today can be difficult for those who lost mothers or those who don't have children. My heart goes out to anyone who might be suffering today for any reason.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:43 PM

MineralMan (106,500 posts)

9. I have a mother. She is 88.

I celebrate Mothers Day because of her. If I did not have a mother, I could celebrate nothing at all.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:45 PM

uppityperson (111,500 posts)

12. I guess Birthdays are saying those who were born that day are more important than those who aren't?

You can turn every holiday, every celebration around to say it is negative for those who don't celebrate it or for whom it is not about.

Reply to this post

Response to uppityperson (Reply #12)

Sat May 11, 2013, 11:23 PM

Moonwalk (2,322 posts)

72. Um...Apples and oranges. EVERYONE gets a birthday, and so gets to celebrate a holiday--

for themselves at least once a year...but not everyone gets to celebrate being a parent, do they? Hence, bad comparison.

A more apt comparison would be Veteran's Day as we don't all get to be Veterans, but I see no complaint about that because said Veterans did do a job for our country. A woman can be a "mom" and, presumably, celebrated on Mother's day simply because she gave birth--not because she did anything else.

I'm afraid the complaint actually does make sense and can be seen as valid. Then again, you seem to have misunderstood it's point. It's not about being negative toward a holiday because it's not about "everyone"--as I said, no one is complaining that we all don't get to celebrate Veteran's day. It about being negative toward a holiday that celebrates something that doesn't put forth a valid reason for celebrating it. If one has to celebrate any woman who is a "mom"--like the addict who gave birth to a crack baby--what real meaning does that holiday have?

Why should said woman's accomplishment (giving birth) be celebrated yet women who are childless (can't have kids) are told they aren't worthy of a holiday? I think it is valid to ask that. It's not that women without children aren't getting a holiday, but rather a question of why those with children do get a holiday--why is that one accomplishment, irregardless of whether the woman raised her children well, worthy of a holiday?

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 08:46 PM

cherokeeprogressive (24,853 posts)

13. "It should go without saying that I also hate Valentine’s Day."

Ms. Lamott sounds like the kind of person who could suck the joy out of, well, just about anything.

Reply to this post

Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #13)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:48 PM

Demeter (85,373 posts)

43. Thank you! That is right in the gold

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Reply to this post

Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #13)

Sun May 12, 2013, 05:34 AM

hfojvt (37,474 posts)

83. there's joy in Valentine's Day?

"I already know that nobody likes me. Why does there have to be a Valentine's Day to rub it in?" Charlie Brown

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:00 PM

GreenEyedLefty (1,759 posts)

17. I'm so sick of these snarky, cynical articles.

There's a billion of them out there, on every topic imaginable. Who gives a shit, really? If you don't like Mother's Day, then don't acknowledge it.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:06 PM

Number23 (24,542 posts)

19. What a baffling and needless article.

Everyone has a mother. Whether you choose to celebrate that or not is completely up to you.

Sure it's a "Hallmark Holiday," and fairly useless in the general scheme of things, but how anyone can see Mother's Day as "promoting a lie that moms are more important than other women" is simply idiotic. By this logic, Memorial Day perpetuates the lie that veterans are better than everyone else.

I know so many women that have lost their mothers that use Mother's Day as a celebration of their deceased moms. I had no idea that there were people trying to politicize Mother's Day. Now I have truly seen everything.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:09 PM

Gin (7,212 posts)

20. Being a mother doesnt just mean having children.......people mother pets.....spouses...

Other peoples children.......mothering is also a state of mind. IMHO:

To all who have "mothered" in some capacity.......happy mothers day!

Reply to this post

Response to Gin (Reply #20)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:15 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

24. Good point

Thanks for not overreacting!

Reply to this post

Response to Gin (Reply #20)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:44 PM

freshwest (53,661 posts)

40. I celebrate mother's day with all the motherly people I know, it's not about biology.

Agree with your take completely, I will greeting my non-mom friends and family tonight and tomorrow.

Reply to this post

Response to Gin (Reply #20)

Sun May 12, 2013, 09:20 AM

raccoon (26,152 posts)

92. Great post. nt

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:09 PM

Skittles (119,813 posts)

21. I don't have kids and I don't see it that way

it's simply an apprecation of moms although an argument could be made against its commericailization. My mum died two years ago and while, yes, I think about her on Mother's Day , I certainly do not experience "profound grief"

Reply to this post

Response to Skittles (Reply #21)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:19 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

26. I don't have kids either

And I don't experience grief. But there is a certain reverence to women who are mothers. It is probably rooted in primitive celebrations at a time when mothers were the primary forces maintaining social order and survival. The point is that we are technically beyond that and the mentality remains. I don't feel cheated. Just responding to an idea that I ran across.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:16 PM

boston bean (31,189 posts)

25. Every single one of us has a mother

And a father too, no?

It's meant to celebrate your mother, not yourself.

Reply to this post

Response to boston bean (Reply #25)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:36 PM

October (3,363 posts)

38. +1

Reply to this post

Response to boston bean (Reply #25)

Sun May 12, 2013, 05:39 AM

hfojvt (37,474 posts)

85. unless myself is a mother

or a father.

In which case it would be MY day as well as a day for one of my parents.

Reply to this post

Response to boston bean (Reply #25)

Sun May 12, 2013, 11:21 AM

redqueen (109,237 posts)

101. +1

I like it when Salon reinforces my decision not to bother with them.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:21 PM

cyberswede (26,063 posts)

27. ...and secretaries' day...

(I mean Administrative Professionals' day) tells us that administrative professionals are more important than those who aren't administrative professionals.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

RobertEarl This message was self-deleted by its author.

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:22 PM

Avalux (35,015 posts)

30. To each his own I guess, but I don't agree.

I have a mother, so does every other person on this planet. It's a day to appreciate and celebrate mother/child relationships, and if for some reason a person doesn't want to do that, it's their choice. But please, let's not turn it into a controversy to pit people against one another. There's plenty of that in the world already.

Reply to this post

Response to Avalux (Reply #30)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:29 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

33. I don't think the author is calling for activism

I got it from a woman who is an Episcopalian pastor and runs an organization that advocates for keeping abortion legal. She posted it because it ties into the stigma against women who have abortions.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:23 PM

cynatnite (28,980 posts)

31. Geez, that first paragraph is more telling than the entire article...

Perhaps Mother’s Day will come to mean something to me as I grow even dottier in my dotage, and I will find myself bitter and distressed when Sam dutifully ignores the holiday. Then he will feel ambushed by my expectations, and he will retaliate by putting me away even sooner than he was planning to — which, come to think of it, would be even more reason to hate Mother’s Day.

Reply to this post

Response to cynatnite (Reply #31)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:25 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

32. Too bad there wasn't a sarcasm tag in the article

Sheesh!

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Reply #32)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:48 PM

cynatnite (28,980 posts)

44. You are right. n/t

Reply to this post

Response to cynatnite (Reply #31)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:45 PM

freshwest (53,661 posts)

42. Yeah, lot of pain leaking out there. Save hate for mosquitoes, that's my motto.

Little no-good blood suckers!

Reply to this post

Response to freshwest (Reply #42)

Sat May 11, 2013, 11:07 PM

klook (6,807 posts)

71. Some mosquitoes are mothers too, you know.

And all mosquitoes have a mother!

Reply to this post

Response to klook (Reply #71)

Sat May 11, 2013, 11:25 PM

freshwest (53,661 posts)

73. Yup, they need extra blood for reproduction. Sorry. Smack!

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:34 PM

Politicalboi (15,189 posts)

37. But they are more important

Mothers have children who NEED them. Dying is sad, but isn't it sadder when it's a mother of 4 rather than some female age 49 no children. It's for the children that we respect mothers more. And I have NO children. I enjoy spoiling my nieces and nephews, and saying good bye Sunday night and not have to care about them till next time I see them.

If I was at a point where it was either my life or a mothers life, I would rather it be me killed. If not, some poor child will be heart broken for their mother, and it may have an effect that they may never get over. Could ruin a family in many ways. So yes, mothers are more important. IMO.

Reply to this post

Response to Politicalboi (Reply #37)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:12 PM

Awknid (381 posts)

52. Right

They are more important to their children.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:49 PM

Liberal_Stalwart71 (20,450 posts)

45. Here, here! I have no children and probably too old to have any. Mother's Day reminds me that I am a

loser.

However, I still love sending my Mom and grandmother things. I also enjoy sending all my aunts cards. It is, however, corporate.

Reply to this post

Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #45)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:27 PM

mercymechap (579 posts)

54. It's like Boston Bean said -

it's about celebrating your mother, not yourself.

And, it doesn't have to be corporate unless you make it. You can always just make a phone call. I have 5 grown children and some years all I got was a phone call from some of them, and you know what, I didn't care, I was just glad they thought of calling me that day.

Reply to this post

Response to mercymechap (Reply #54)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:32 PM

Liberal_Stalwart71 (20,450 posts)

56. They're lucky to have a Mom like you! Happy Mother's Day!!

Reply to this post

Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #56)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:44 PM

mercymechap (579 posts)

69. Thank You!

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:52 PM

graywarrior (59,440 posts)

46. I can't bear the thought of what my sister will go through tomorrow

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 09:57 PM

Nye Bevan (25,406 posts)

48. I hate the Olympics too.

Because it makes those who suck at sports feel inferior.

Reply to this post

Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #48)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:29 PM

BeyondGeography (30,553 posts)

55. Basically

the author hates everything that makes anybody feel bad about anything:

I hate the way the holiday makes all non-mothers, and the daughters of dead mothers, and the mothers of dead or severely damaged children, feel the deepest kind of grief and failure.

She wrote that. She really did.

Reply to this post

Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #48)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:37 PM

treestar (69,858 posts)

63. Different

Because those of us who are not mothers are not inferior. We're allowing more space on the planet for those who do have children.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:00 PM

WHEN CRABS ROAR (3,813 posts)

49. The common thread is that we all had a mother

and a father.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:09 PM

BeyondGeography (30,553 posts)

51. Laughable

Reply to this post

Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #51)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:34 PM

FBaggins (16,829 posts)

59. Exactly

It celebrates the simple truth that women who have children are usually more important to those children than women who aren't their mothers.

I hope the author doesn't get invited to many birthdays or weddings (etc). Heaven forbid that anyone else ever be the center of attention.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:19 PM

mercymechap (579 posts)

53. Geez, not everything is a

competition. That children want to celebrate and honor their mothers doesn't mean that those without children are being dishonored.
Seems like the author, Anne Lamott just about hates everything!

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:33 PM

La Lioness Priyanka (53,866 posts)

57. no the great lie we celebrate is that we value mothers

in any real way. instead we make it really hard to be a mother and attain personal goals by making work incompatible with motherhood and making motherhood far more important than fatherhood.

Reply to this post

Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #57)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:39 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

65. I don't think those facts are unrecognized by reasonable people

nt.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Reply #65)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:40 PM

La Lioness Priyanka (53,866 posts)

67. i think they are very much unrecognized by most people

which is why we have the shittiest laws around mothers and families in the industrialized world

Reply to this post

Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #67)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:42 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

68. I suppose one could argue that most people aren't reasonable.

Reply to this post

Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #57)

Sun May 12, 2013, 09:22 AM

raccoon (26,152 posts)

93. Good point. nt

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:35 PM

arely staircase (12,482 posts)

61. should I cancel my plans with Mom for tomorrow?

Reply to this post

Response to arely staircase (Reply #61)

Sun May 12, 2013, 10:30 AM

Orrex (58,577 posts)

99. Call her and tell her that she's no more important than anyone else.

That'll make her day--promise!

Reply to this post

Response to Orrex (Reply #99)

Sun May 12, 2013, 02:46 PM

arely staircase (12,482 posts)

107. yeah, no kidding

that would go down well. I can explain to her that taking her to lunch is an insult to my childless girlfriend. that will help shore up their relationship too.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:39 PM

TampaAnimusVortex (785 posts)

64. Britta from Community can tell you all about it!

Go for it Britta!

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:40 PM

treestar (69,858 posts)

66. Those with children are not more important than those without

But they do allow for greater consumption.

That's why we have to buy them presents for being mothers.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sat May 11, 2013, 10:51 PM

gollygee (20,973 posts)

70. I've heard about 7 or 8 variations on this theme today

Was it this Salon article that started it? I had a couple of people say something similar at an event I went to today, and I read a few things people posted on Facebook about how awful Mothers Day is.

I can't argue with all the reasons people have trouble with Mothers Day, but it bothers me that this is the holiday people decide to take a stand over. This and Columbus Day, but the problems with Columbus Day seem much more real to me.

The idea that Mothers Day claims that women with children are more important hasn't been the reason everyone has given me for not liking Mothers Day. I've also heard that Fathers nurture their children too (to which I replied, yes of course but they also have a holiday), that it hurts people whose mothers have died, that it hurts women whose children have died, that it hurts women who have been unable to have children. Hmm I think there were more but those are the ones I remember. I can't argue with the reasons and don't even personally celebrate Mothers Day (despite being a mom.) I'm am a bit bothered by how much negativity I've heard about mothers being recognized though.

People who have lost loved ones are hurt at all holidays, though I definitely empathize. I have lost a family member and I found the first Christmas following her death, and the anniversary of her birth to be very difficult. I guess if I heard these same arguments used against Fathers Day, it wouldn't bug me. Maybe when Fathers Day comes people will say the same things though.

Reply to this post

Response to gollygee (Reply #70)

Sun May 12, 2013, 12:26 AM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

75. I think there's a distinction between "important" and "valued"

Mothers and fathers are both essential to our world as they reproduce and nurture children.
The point the author was trying to make is that women who give birth seem to be valued more in our culture. I thought it was thought- provoking. People seemed to take it literally.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 12:02 AM

kickysnana (3,908 posts)

74. What a sad way to look at things.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 02:37 AM

BrotherIvan (9,126 posts)

79. I just visited my friends tonight who are parents

I got to enjoy their 2 year old having a meltdown for two hours. My special present for being child-free was coming home to peace and quiet and a lovely Malbec.

I do not begrudge them their holiday.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 05:36 AM

Lady Freedom Returns (8,797 posts)

84. Mother's day Sucks.

Yep. I said it. No, I did not forget the Sarcasm smiley, I mean it.

Early next month will be the 3rd anniversary of my Mothers passing due to the indifference of my father. It will be, in a few short days, the 2nd. anniversary of the lost of my two four legged babies.

Add to it that I am, my father's words mind you, that I really was not worth that much due to not giving him a grandchild like my baby sister did.

I knew when I was very young that I NEVER wanted to be a mom. My mother was very supportive of that. Most people never judge me about till recently. Now that I am not anywhere near as successful as I was, I have found I need some help from religious ( mainly protestant) groups who have treated me less than other women due to not having kids. I have been told that I really need to have kids if I am to contribute to society. I have been looked down at and been made the brunt of many a joke by other women in shelters due to having no kids.

Once I would have scoffed at the idea of people getting treated like I have been of late. But now, I find it a disgusting truth. I have had this Holiday, for they last 2 years, used to show me that I need to have a kid or I am less than a woman.

As I said, Mother's Day SUCKS!

Reply to this post

Response to Lady Freedom Returns (Reply #84)

Sun May 12, 2013, 09:24 AM

raccoon (26,152 posts)

94. Sorry that is happening to you, esp. what your father said to you, that was cruel.

"I knew when I was very young that I NEVER wanted to be a mom. "

So did I.

Reply to this post

Response to raccoon (Reply #94)

Sun May 12, 2013, 10:25 AM

roody (10,146 posts)

97. I'm always glad that I did not have kids.

Reply to this post

Response to Lady Freedom Returns (Reply #84)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:22 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

114. I am willfully barren

I knew I didn't want children and had my tubes tied when I was 29. My Dr. made me wait a year to think it over before she would do it.
What your father said was horrible. I have speculated that a male gyn would have been less likely to do it.

Compared to other women, I think I get a pass for not having or wanting to have children. Having Epilepsy factored into my decision, and the shock goes away when I explain it with that factor.

I have nieces and nephews who I love to spend time with. I am glad the their beds are in my sister's house, though. I love and respect my mom, aunts, sister, and my many friends who are moms. I don't see why rethinking what a holiday means to people who are not on list is entirely negative.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 07:15 AM

Seeking Serenity (2,459 posts)

90. Haters gotta hate, I guess

Is there NOTHING that happens in this country that some snarky, "cool kids" writer can't defecate on?

Ugh

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 07:39 AM

Donald Ian Rankin (13,598 posts)

91. Is that wholly a lie?

I think there's a strong case to be made that the lives of people (*not* specifically women) with children - especially dependent children - should sometimes be put before the lives of those without.

If you were trapped in a burning building and had to choose between a bunch of volunteers to risk their life trying to get out, wouldn't "I don't have dependents" be one of the things that would make you accept someone?

That's not quite the same thing as those people being less important, but it's a lot like it.

People with children aren't morally superior; they don't contribute more to the human race; they're happiness isn't more important. But I think that preserving their lives probably *is* more important than keeping the rest of us alive.

What I suspect Ms Lamott has correctly identified as a big lie (it certainly comes up in dispute more often) is the conjugate of this claim - that having children is the best and most important thing a woman could do.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 09:56 AM

FarCenter (19,376 posts)

95. Hormones during gestation and lactation change mom's brains

Brain preparations for maternity--adaptive changes in behavioral and neuroendocrine systems during pregnancy and lactation. An overview.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11589124

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 11:35 AM

nolabear (27,947 posts)

102. I like a lot about Anne Lamott but I think this is absurd.

Subtracting excuses to be loving toward one another just bleeds life dry. Hell, if she wants to add a Women Without Children Day, I say go for it! Let us all enjoy one another for our joys and accomplishments, for choosing either way, for having someone to show love for, for the bizarre and amazing way we come into the world. Women with children are just women with children, but we like that and to shame us for it is mean and strange.

By the way, I say this as someone who hasn't had a mother since I was thirteen. But I had a grandmother who stepped in and a stepmother (who wasn't on the scene til long after I'd left home but who is a marvelous woman) and I have appreciated them tremendously, even as I've known there was an enormous hole where many people have something, for better or worse. And I have two marvelous sons who are taking me out today, and whom I love like life itself.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 11:37 AM

LittleBlue (10,362 posts)

103. Oh god

You just knew someone was going to shit on Mothers Day. Crap attitude.

Hint: You're going to have the other 364 days to not feel bad about Mothers Day, while the mothers have their children working them to exhaustion. This day is to recognize their incredible hard work and sacrifice to bring us ALL into the world and raise us to adulthood.

Reply to this post

Response to LittleBlue (Reply #103)

Sun May 12, 2013, 03:01 PM

shcrane71 (1,721 posts)

108. You're completely missing the point of the article...

A successful author and mother is stating that the day makes her uncomfortable because it celebrates and perpetuates a cultural bias that all women are good for are having and raising children.

HINT: You have 365 days a year to be superior and say snarky things like "oh you just don't understand how you can love someone so much until you have a child" to all those women who couldn't have children or chose not to have children. Enjoy your day, and we'll all tell our mothers how much we love them while appreciating our childfree sisters as well.

Reply to this post

Response to shcrane71 (Reply #108)

Sun May 12, 2013, 03:29 PM

LittleBlue (10,362 posts)

110. You're right. We would never celebrate fathers being good at raising kids

Oh wait

Silly article, silly sentiment, and increasingly a silly publication.

Reply to this post

Response to LittleBlue (Reply #110)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:03 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

111. I have always been amazed

at how celebrated fathers are just for doing what they are supposed to do.
They get way more credit for doing the jobs that women are expected to do flawlessly without a lot of support.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Reply #111)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:27 PM

LittleBlue (10,362 posts)

117. What do you want?

I'm sorry you didn't get the recognition you thought you deserved. It's hard to tell whether the issue is women being put in a role unfairly, or men getting too much recognition for theirs.

To be frank, this is coming across as a load of whining. It's like society should apologize for thinking of mothers in a motherly role.

Reply to this post

Response to LittleBlue (Reply #117)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:34 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

119. A civil conversation maybe?

I don't see how questioning how the culturally parental roles are defined and what it means for people who aren't parents is so ridiculous.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Reply #119)

Sun May 12, 2013, 07:32 PM

shcrane71 (1,721 posts)

121. Thank you. It is impossible to have a civil conversation with

someone who finds self-worth in despising those who aren't in situations just like him or herself (i.e. a parent).

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 12:24 PM

LWolf (46,142 posts)

105. Anne Lamott needs some context.

Something not related to commercialized flowers, cards, etc..

http://codepinkalert.org/article.php?id=217

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:05 PM

HiPointDem (20,729 posts)

112. and does father's day say the same about men? stupid article.

Reply to this post

Response to HiPointDem (Reply #112)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:25 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

116. I have notidea

I would speculate that there is not the same pressure for men to have children. Men would have to answer that question.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:25 PM

lumberjack_jeff (33,224 posts)

115. Maybe it's not about celebrating you. It's about celebrating your mom. n/t

Reply to this post

Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #115)

Sun May 12, 2013, 04:29 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

118. I don't think anyone has or would

propose a holiday celebrating people who were born. Stupid red herring.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 05:32 PM

GeorgeGist (19,795 posts)

120. Spoiled much?

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Sun May 12, 2013, 07:58 PM

shcrane71 (1,721 posts)

122. Our nation should do more than declaring a working holiday to help women

be the best mothers that they can be. For starters, we should have mandatory, paid maternity/paternity leave. We should have subsidized child care. But instead we get one shitty Sunday a year where all the restaurants are packed with people guiltily taking Mom out for a well-deserved meal. Well, I guess it's something.

Instead of meaningful reforms that would benefit mothers and all of society, Americans get to listen to their newly mothered co-workers cry because they just left their 6-week old with a daycare provider. Women, who are infertile or choose not to have children, work extra hours and holidays for those with little ones.

As Ann Lamott correctly said, women without children are less important than those with children, and sometimes mothers, like Ms. Lamott, see the societal disparity and realize that childless women often do make thankless sacrifices for those women blessed with children.

Reply to this post

Response to shcrane71 (Reply #122)

Sun May 12, 2013, 08:27 PM

loyalsister (12,196 posts)

123. Absolutely

I don't usually like easy answers, but I think availability of childcare and universal healthcare would elevate middle class and working poor mothers tremendously.

Reply to this post

Response to loyalsister (Original post)

Mon Nov 4, 2013, 06:41 PM

LeftishBrit (38,837 posts)

124. I disagree - it is intended to celebrate your mother, not yourself

One can legitimately criticize the commercialist sentimentality surrounding the day, but I disagree that it marginalizes those who aren't mothers.

Reply to this post

General Discussion (Forum)