Something to realise

[DainBramaged]

Good night

[riderinthestorm]

1. Soo... the WBC's free speech demonstrations are the same as murderous bombings?

And we should view free speech demonstrations (even heinous ones), the same as murderous bombings??



I'm not understanding this point.

[99Forever]

2. Whoooooooooooooooosh

[riderinthestorm]

4. Uh huh. Right. Because WBC protests are JUST the same as murderous bombings.

Look, I get that both are heinous (whoosh right?)

But the OP really wants to minimize mass murder/terror as akin to a "God hates fags" sign?

Really?

[DainBramaged]

7. I even rec'd my own thread. How amazing you can't conceptualize

[riderinthestorm]

11. I can conceptualize 13 victims without legs and 160+ wounded

and 4 dead.

In comparison to a "God hates fags" sign...

Yep.

I can.

I'm dead cert most Muslims recoil in horror the same as anyone at BOTH things but if you can't see the smidgeon of difference between these two things then... well, okay.

[DainBramaged]

15. No you don't understand and you're simply going to dig yourself a deeper hole

You blame ALL of Islam for the actions of the two brothers, really?


I am amazed you have existed here this long.

[riderinthestorm]

18. Nope. I think this is a false analogy.nt

[whathehell]

184. +10.

You're correct. It is a false analogy.

[krawhitham]

238. Maybe this one is clearer

[Stretch714]

75. Is that any different than blaming all gun owners based on the actions a few nut jobs?

[xtraxritical]

89. What about Niger where Islamic terrorist are trying to over throw the government?

[Whisp]

165. those signs enabled a lot of hurt of murder too.

we can't have evidence exact like a bombing but we know that happens too often and with more casualties -- wake the fuck up.

[whathehell]

183. Sorry, Whisp, but there's no evidence of that.

If there was, one might be able to bring them up on a criminal charge.

.
It's really just not a good analogy.

[whathehell]

189. How amazing that you don't understand the concept of an analogy.

Let me explain it to you:

The WBC are loathesome. Militant Jihadists are loathesome.

The big difference between the two is that only ONE of those has

murdered in the name of their beliefs.

Failing to understand that is what makes for a bad analogy

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

232. Tell that to George Tiller's family

I'm almost certain they'd disagree with you.

How about the families of the people killed and wounded by Eric Rudolph and the "Army of God"

WBC hasn't blown up anyone (that we know of), but they provide a voice for, and encouragement to, a lot of extremely violent people in this country.

Charlie Manson didn't kill anybody, either.

[whathehell]

235. Gee, Jeff, I think this comes under the heading of a "day late and a dollar short"

Shitty as Tiller's murder was, it was still a targeted one, meaning

it was committed for what someone "did", not for who they were.

These two, like the 9/11 attackers, killed people for simply being what they were -- American.

If you still can't see the difference, we have these things called remedial education classes.

Try again.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

239. Quite the feat of hair-splitting...

Murdering based on your anti-abortion beliefs is not terrorism. But murdering on the basis of your anti-American belief is.

I think in my remedial education class, they referred to that as "complete and unmitigated horseshit."

[whathehell]

241. Um, no, it's actually an entirely different head of hair..

"Murdering on the basis of your 'anti-American belief'"?

No, because "people" are not "beliefs" and killing them on the basis of their ethnicity as Americans

is about as legitimate as Nazis killing Jews because of their "anti-Jewish beliefs"

Get it now?

[BainsBane]

10. No, a bombing is a bombing

whoever executes them. To try to blame an entire religion or people for that bombing is bigotry.

Bombings of abortion clinics, not Muslims
Oklahoma City, not Muslims

Boston, two guys who happen to be Muslim. Tim McVeigh set a bomb that killed many more people. No one is any more dead if their murder is Muslim vs. Christian or something else. Dead is dead.

[riderinthestorm]

20. I'm not. I simply believe this is a false analogy and grotesquely simplifies the situation.nt

[tosh]

141. Subject, verb, etc.

Get it now?

[rustydog]

143. Exactly! and if you get onto a plane with a bunch of white boys on it

are you going to get panicky and text about the terrorists on the plane and consider getting off the plane? Let one man dressed in "Muslim" garb get on the plane and a panic will ensue...

Thanks to the GOP and conservative media and CHRISTIANS demonizing the MuslimReligion, not the criminal.
Westboro Baptist is not a representative Christian religion....Actually, yes it is. Representative of bigoted, Hateful, spiteful losers who chose what to believe like diners in an all you can eat buffet, don't touch what you dislike about it, just eat up all that you find "tasty and delicious". But does that mean they, or the nut-job "Christians" who murder believed Abortion doctors, or BOMB THEIR CLINICS in the name of God represent the Christian faith?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

216. Honest question --

Thanks to the GOP and conservative media and CHRISTIANS demonizing the MuslimReligion, not the criminal.

Would this be ALL members of the GOP, conservative media and Christians or just the particular individual offenders?

[whathehell]

197. Sorry, Bains, but the surviving brother just admitted "religious fervor" to be the reason

for the killings.

I really believe most here DO understand and appreciate the difference

between violent Jihadists and the vast majority of Muslims,

but the case for tolerance is not well served by denying facts or stretching analogies.

[99Forever]

16. Conjecture much?

You got all of that drivel from "Whooooooooooosh."?????

Really?

You gonna share whatevah you be smokin' man?

[Neoma]

240. How about army of god?

More comparable.

[BainsBane]

3. the point is they don't represent Islam as a whole

anymore than WBC represents Westerners or Christians as a whole. It's not very complicated.

[riderinthestorm]

25. The message is pretty clear imho. nt

[DainBramaged]

5. Really, you have a hard time understanding?

So sad....

[riderinthestorm]

8. I think its another attempt to portray some of the destructive shit going on in the name of Islam

as "not so bad"....

Like a bad free speech zone...



I agree both are bad but really? The WBC protests are JUST like the Boston Marathon bombing?

[DainBramaged]

9. I think you need to put your prejudice away and step away from the keyboard.

[BainsBane]

12. If not for people think you

I'd pull my hair out. The swill by some on this board today is too much to tolerate. Thank you DainBramaged.

[riderinthestorm]

14. I'm against any religious terrorism. ALL of it.

I simply don't buy this comparison.

That's not bigotry. That's thinking this is a false analogy.

[DainBramaged]

21. Here is what you are buying into with your cmments

ALL Blacks are criminals, ALL Jews are cheap. ALL Mexicans are lazy, ALL Muslims are terrorists...


that's prejudice and you just peeled your personal prejudce onion back for us.

[riderinthestorm]

31. Nope. The analogy is flawed imho. A free speech (despicable as it is) comparison with the Boston

Marathon bombing?

Sorry I just don't think its equivalent.

You may. Others may.

I don't.

[DainBramaged]

34. I will spend no more time discussing it with you

someday you'll understand, someday.


Maybe.

[BainsBane]

22. but if it's not religious

no problem? WTF difference does it make if you associate the perpetrators with a religion? They point is the killing.

[riderinthestorm]

33. The only commonality between WBC and the Boston Marathoners is the perps self-identify as religious

And the point of difference is EXACTLY the killing.

[BainsBane]

62. 200,000 dead in Iraq

4000 dead since Sandyhook from gun violence, but you focus on Islam. I guess dying just doesn't matter if it's not a Muslim doing the killing.

[riderinthestorm]

63. The OP made the link between the WBC and Islamic terrorists.

I'm staying within the topic. I'm not going to drag this into other arenas like gun control for example.

Trying to read something into my comments because I'm staying on topic without straying too far OT is disingenuous. I've said my piece about Iraq and Sandy Hook in other places. That's not what this thread is about.

Olive Garden. Breastfeeding. Public smoking. Gun control. Cornflake v breadcrumb casserole toppings. The ACA....

I've made my point. I believe its a crap analogy. The Boston bombing carnage and devastation is still too raw for me to let this pass. Clearly you disagree and want to make this into something bigoted. I get that loud and clear. I post a lot in LBN and the destruction unfolding across the ME and North Africa because of Islamist terrorism widens my perspective.

This kind of terrorism is not analogous to the handful of WBC malcontents. Trivializing it sticks in my craw and the facile, simplistic tone doesn't do justice to what's happening out there in the bigger world.

I grieve for American Muslims who inevitably face backlash. You've chosen to dismiss anything sympathetic to this community, previous from me on other prior threads than this one, in order to self-righteously condemn my position.

[BainsBane]

67. What you object to

Is that others refuse to hate an entire people and that everyone here isn't mired in bigotry. You claim my point off topic because it doesn't suit your agenda. The tweet communicates the most basic of all concepts: judge people as individuals, not based on some sort of collective guilt the ignorant insist on attributing to 1/3 of the world's population. First you say the key issue is death. Now you pretend death is off topic. We live in the most militaristic society in human history, kill tens of thousands domestically and abroad every year, and you pretend the problem is Islam. It appears to me that the loss of life ranks rather low among your concerns.

[riderinthestorm]

84. I've never once said the killing is unimportant. In fact its precisely my point

That the WBC protests is a despicable free speech action where Islamic terrorism is about killing, destruction and carnage.

That I haven't explicitly condemned the deaths by guns, or the deaths by DV, or the deaths by the US, or the deaths by Israel, or the deaths by the apartheid South African government, or the deaths by toy manufacturer criminality, or the deaths by salmonella poisoning, or the deaths by medical malpractice, or the deaths by Christian terrorists, or the ongoing catastrophe in the Hindu-Pak region, or the deaths by (insert whatever other strawman you choose to create that I must condemn ON THIS THREAD before its okay with you)...

... doesn't mean I don't care about them.

Nor does it mean I haven't decried them, discussed them, cried about them, or am unconcerned about them on other threads.

Not does it mean anything other than THIS THREAD is about the WBC and Islamic terrorism.

Period.

I think the tweet is facile and simplistic and a bad analogy.

I have not "hated an entire people" no matter how much you want to portray it like that.

Clearly you want to belabor this point. I'm off to bed. I will leave you to issue some scathing self righteous last words.

[markpkessinger]

178. That really wasn't the point of the OP at all...

... It was NOT making a comparison between the actions of Muslim terrorists and those of WBC. It was making a comparison between how those two groups, each as a subgroup within a broader culture, is regarded by its broader culture, thus attempting to illustrate that radical Islam no more speaks for Islam as a whole than WBC speaks for Christianity as a whole. The analogy is not between the acts of each group, but between each group's relationship to its wider culture.

Something tells me your understanding of the way analogies work is a bit lacking.

[AAO]

152. Right. Terrorism is terrorism. Doesn't really matter religion, or just ordinary insanity.

[BainsBane]

153. or 200,000 deaths in Iraq the name of democracy

that is somehow better I suppose. Shall we ban democracy as well?

Then there were the anarchists who planted bombs around the turn of the century, and the Weather Underground in the 1960s. Were they insane? The adolescent view of religion by many here is amazing.

[AAO]

157. I'm not going to justify going to war in Iraq, if that's what you're getting at.

I have an extremely mature view of religion. It's for people unlike me. That's as polite as I can be.

[BainsBane]

159. those people are 90% of the population

But we of course are superior because the taxes we pay to subsidize mass murder do so in the name of "democracy" rather than god. We have a state religion in America that every person here worships: accumulation of capital and a perpetual state of war justified by an enduring conviction in American superiority. To target religion and Islam in particular without examining one's own role in death around the world is at best hypocritical. Every single denunciation of Muslims on these boards reveals a worship for the God of American superiority enforced through militarism, an ideology people here refuse to interrogate while blaming others with far less blood on their hands. So be proud. We don't worship God. America worships capital and the machinery of death. Aren't we superior.

[AAO]

196. You're speaking only for yourself.

[whathehell]

198. I have to ask you, Dain, did you feel the need to educate the Brits on tolerance after 7/7/05?

I have to ask, because your spelling (sorry) indicates that you are British or originate

from one of their commonwealths.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

28. Emotionaly it can.

When they decided to protest after the Joplin Mo tornado, it was like the tornado was back in a way. Many that came to pass out literature roughly a day before the date of when the main protest was to be. They keep saying how it was all our fault and how god hated us for loving the USA and ...

They were making many of us, with their talks, live it again and again.

I think one has to go through one of their "attacks" (best word there is to describe what they do) to understand what it does to a person.

[riderinthestorm]

39. Ok. But did their protest kill anybody? Permanently, physically maim hundreds?

Set off a (questionable) manhunt that (voluntarily) shut down an entire US city?

Create a Miranda situation with a suspect of such disgusting proportions our treatment of "terrorists" may never recover?

The analogy is deeply flawed.

I objected.

Obviously I'm in the minority on this. Won't be the first time (and my ignore list probably has now grown exponentially...)

[Lady Freedom Returns]

47. There was one person that commited suicide after the harassment.

The national guard had to come out to get them out of the camp area. At the time we were under marshal law so WBC could not use "Free Speech" as a reason to be allowed to stay in the camping areas. They had to, to keep from riots breaking out, expeshaly after the suicide.


AS I stated in my origin OP. Emotionally, it can be equal to it.

[riderinthestorm]

49. I'm truly sorry about that. As you know I've followed your story and journey closely

I just finished THIS thread before I opened DainBranaged and the juxtaposition simply sticks in my craw....

"Not for the squeamish or those who faint at the sight of blood, these photo journalists did what they do best. Personally, I don't know how they kept their head to document the scene immediately after the explosion, I likely would have forgotten I even had a camera:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2013/04/terror_at_the_boston_marathon.html

Boston.com, which bills itself as "The Big Picture- The News in Photographs", is a great source for current events in a format that augments lengthy news articles. As they say about a photo: "...worth a thousand words"."


I'm not comfortable minimizing what happened in Boston as akin to a WBC protest. I understand the facile surface point but just found the analogy to be simplistic in light of the very fresh horror.

Clearly this isn't popular. Okay.

I'm still incredibly horrified at what happened in Boston. Whatever the WBC does just doesn't seem to measure up on the same scale imo.

Thank you though for the perspective. Not sure it changes my mind but I will mull it over tonight.

[uppityperson]

79. "Create a Miranda situation with a suspect of such disgusting proportions our treatment....:

"Create a Miranda situation with a suspect of such disgusting proportions our treatment of "terrorists" may never recover".

Has this really happened? When? With whom?

[riderinthestorm]

87. The delay in issuing a Miranda warning for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is very troubling

for me.

I think it will have profound implications on future cases and I can see it being misused. Badly misused.

This has been an ongoing debate on DU these past 48 hours and I really don't want to re-hash it here on this thread.

[uppityperson]

95. Oh. Ah. There is legal reason for waiting to use it in certain cases. It is too bad you are so

disgustedly afraid.

[riderinthestorm]

101. No. Too bad the FBI is too disgustingly afraid to issue a Miranda warning

but I'm not willing to be drawn into this OT discussion here.

Greater legal scholars than I (like the ACLU) also agree with me. Suffice it to say that's as far as I'm willing to take this topic here.

[uppityperson]

102. hahahahahahahahaha. I keep thinking you are serious and then I appreciate your dry humor.

[whathehell]

191. The FBI issued a Miranda Warning yesterday to the suspect in his hospital room yesterday.

according to Rachel Maddow.

As for a "delay", he's only recently been conscious.

[AAO]

150. Where in her tweet did she say or imply that?

You seem predisposed to interpreting that tweet in a negative way, and that's odd for a DUer.

[Luminous Animal]

161. The booooogie man used to be the Rooooooskies and now it is the Moooooslims.

The powers that be like to keep us divided, ignorant, and full of fear.

[whathehell]

203. So clever, If only you didn't miss this rather large point:

The "Rooooskies" never attacked us.

[Buzz Clik]

19. Holy shit.

I won't even try to explain.

Read this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022732203#post17

[DainBramaged]

37. It was a simple tweet by an innocent proclaiming the right to extract her religion from

the concept of all being proclaimed terrorists, and the tweet is attacked.


Makes you wonder doesn't it?

[Buzz Clik]

40. There are posters here playing to an outside audience

No idea if that is happening here, but to get that offensive and to take a total literal interpretation is pretty wild.

Most of the extreme right find WBC to be so vile and so offensive they want no association with them at all.

We have two dots. Connecting them should be trivial.

[DainBramaged]

43. Woodwork, I finds them......

it was a beautiful tweet to begin with, so sad some try to discolor it for their own purpose.





It's amazing how some folks cant look at anything from other than a Christian perspective, and make themselves look dumber than a stump to boot.

[riderinthestorm]

48. You know, you and Buzz Clik can alert if you think there's some ulterior agenda here.

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2013, 12:06 AM - Edit history (1)

And I'm not a Christian.

Edited to add that the Salafist/Islamist terrorist factions funded by the Saudis and the Gulf States are currently waging a battle across the ME and North Africa. There are many, many, many hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of Islamist terrorists wreaking havoc on the planet right now. And we are expected to equate this to maybe 10 WBC protesters in a (despicable but legal) free speech protest.


Good night.

[Stretch714]

90. Is it that hard to see what she said with that tweet?

Muslims as a whole do not like the extremist and christens as a whole do not like the WBC. How that turned into a debate about it some how being about free speech vs terrorist is beyond me.


I just don't get it. Maybe I am tired and need to crash but come on guys.

[Violet_Crumble]

96. For some people there's a wilful blindness going on...

She never said in that tweet that both things were the same, so I'm not sure where that came from either. I suspect that even if she'd written abortion clinic bombers instead of WBC, there'd be howls of outrage and accusations of flawed analogies flying thick and fast...

[riderinthestorm]

97. I've said I understand what she means in the tweet but I think her analogy is flawed

The OP is making the comparison between a heinous free speech action being as horrific as Islamic terrorism.

Frankly they're not.

After this week I'm just unwilling to let it slide I guess.

I'm probably too tired too.

[Stretch714]

107. To me what the WBC does is as bad.

The WBC prays on people for a gain, a monetary gain. They pray on the emotions of those who have lost loved ones. It is not even about god or any thing like that. They just want money and that is all they want. And they hide behind the bible and free speech to do it.



F*#K the WBC

[riderinthestorm]

115. Ok. Fair enough and welcome to DU. nt

[Stretch714]

116. Thanks for the welcome. nt

[tammywammy]

23. It doesn't say they're the same.

I can't believe you're not getting it.

All Muslims aren't terrorists and all Christians aren't like WBC.

[riderinthestorm]

42. I get that. I think the analogy is flawed.

It truly minimizes what's happened here this week.

I don't like it.

[uppityperson]

83. "All Muslims aren't terrorists and all Christians aren't like WBC" is flawed? How?

[riderinthestorm]

91. I agreed with tammywammy. HER post isn't flawed. The OP's analogy

is flawed as I've explained several times already on this thread.

[tammywammy]

92. How is it flawed?

She didn't mention Boston. What was posted, is that not all Muslims are terrorists and not all Christians are like the WBC. How is that statement flawed?

[riderinthestorm]

114. One is a free speech action, the other is terrorism

I understand you don't see a large discrepancy between the two actions but I do.

The events of this week are just too raw for me not to make the connection and I presume the tweet is in reference to the Boston Marathon bombing.

But lets just say its not in reference to Boston, I spend a lot of time in LBN where the growing numbers of Salafist/Islamist terrorists are wreaking havoc across the ME and North Africa. From Syria to Mali its a disaster zone with millions of catastrophes happening because of the Saudi and Gulf state funded Islamists' actions through the region.

Do you really think THAT compares to the handful of (despicable) WBC malcontents with a "God hate fags" sign?

I guess I just don't. Not tonight at least.

The OP stuck in my craw.

I grieve for the Muslim American community and the backlash. Its disgusting. I get that the tweet is supposed to be uplifting and positive and clearly I'm not willing to go along.

[markpkessinger]

179. But the actions are not the operative part of the analogy . . .

. . . The operative part of the analogy is how each group is viewed as a subgroup within a wider culture.

[whathehell]

193. Yes, but what you and the OP aren't getting is this:

Democratic Underground isn't the "audience" for that a message. It's clearly meant to ward off hatred

of Islam and muslims generally, which is a GOOD thing, but not necessary here, because few if ANY here

do hate Islam. The vast majority, if not every single one of us, "get" the difference between the vast

majority of muslims and violent terrorists.

Maybe people are just annoyed by what they see as gratuitous proselytizing.

No one likes feeling "talked down" to.

[Hugabear]

36. I see your hatred and bigotry has affected your understanding

The OP went flying right over your head

[riderinthestorm]

44. No, it didn't. I've said already, I think the analogy is deeply flawed.

I don't care to minimize what happened in Boston as something like a WBC protest.

I don't believe that's hatred and bigotry.

It means I'm simply not willing to (yet) minimize the blood, guts, severed limbs and death. I just finished reviewing another thread of brave photographers who captured the scene immediately post-bombing.

Its horrific. Edited to add the link to the thread I reviewed just before this thread....

"Not for the squeamish or those who faint at the sight of blood, these photo journalists did what they do best. Personally, I don't know how they kept their head to document the scene immediately after the explosion, I likely would have forgotten I even had a camera:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2013/04/terror_at_the_boston_marathon.html

Boston.com, which bills itself as "The Big Picture- The News in Photographs", is a great source for current events in a format that augments lengthy news articles. As they say about a photo: "...worth a thousand words". "



And its nothing like a WBC protest.

Nothing.

[whathehell]

205. Sure, because refusing to accept poor analogies = "hatred and bigotry"

Riiiiiiiiight.

Tell us, what part of "knee Jerk" or "broad brush" do you not understand?

[JDPriestly]

109. You are misunderstanding the metaphor I think.

What she meant is that she scorns Muslim terrorists just like normal Christians scorn the Westboro crowd. The Westboro's haven't killed anyone, so that means they really aren't comparable to the Muslim terrorists. It isn't the Muslim terrorists and the Westboro Christians that are alike. It is the way normal Muslims and normal Christians feel about the two extremists groups that she thinks are alike.

I don't know if she is right, but I think that is what she means, and she could be right.

[riderinthestorm]

117. Thanks JDPriestly. Truly.

[Dr. Strange]

144. Hopefully that's what she means.

Twitter probably isn't the best place to try to convey a message of that kind of significance.

[rustydog]

142. You cannot be this ignorant

Truly, you have to be baiting and I TOOK THE BAIT!

[litlbilly]

149. Her point is not all muslims are terrorists. She is correct.

It's easy to see her point. Not about WBC and terrorist who kill people. Its about crazy right wingers from any religion that cause all problems, not just now but throughout history.

[malaise]

181. Well just replace WBC with the abortion clinic bombers

who kill in the name of Jebus

[Dorian Gray]

186. I think

most Christians fine the WBC abhorrent

I'm sure that most Muslims find the bombings and 9-11 abhorrent, as well.

They view the strain of fanaticism as crazy and they don't understand it.

[ZombieHorde]

201. I am not so sure the tweet is comparing behavior.

I think the tweet is comparing attitudes of groups toward the extremists within the groups.

[BainsBane]

6. Why DUers need to be reminded of something even George Bush knew

is shocking, but I thank you for doing so.

The events in Boston were carried about by two guys, not Islam as a whole. Basic.

[whathehell]

204. I don't think DUers need to be so reminded, though some may need reminding

that they are talking to Democratic Underground, not Free Republic.

Those "two guys", by the way, had an agenda. Yesterday Surviving Brother

said the bombings were the result of "religious fervor" -- Today, he's singing

another song, saying it's about Iraq and Afghanistan.

This does NOT mean we're so stupid here as to imagine that Muslim = Terrorist.

Really, Bains, some of us CAN do nuance.

[BainsBane]

210. I'm glad you can

several cannot.

[whathehell]

211. Sorry, but I disagree. I don't see anyone here proclaiming their hatred of Muslims or Islam

or anything else that requires the Heavy PC Treatment.

[BainsBane]

212. One member was just banned

For sending a PM to another accusing her of being a terrorist because she loves her Muslim son-in-law. There are many posts conflating the attack in Boston with Islam as a whole. I will stand up to bigotry wherever I see it. If you want to call that PC, that is your problem. I call it a commitment to equality.

[riderinthestorm]

213. On this thread specifically you call DUers bigots who simply dislike the analogy

I don't have any problem with calling out people who really are making bigoted comments but you seem to be shutting down discussions with bigotry labels for stuff that isn't that.

(and I think the PM to Blue in AK is despicable and agree with their banning just so I clarify that as well).

[whathehell]

214. Wow.

If that's what happened she SHOULD be banned, however I've been reading the posts on this thread

and I do NOT see any which conflate the attack on Boston with Islam. If you can point them out

to me, I'll be happy to look at them and possibly change my view.

That being said, I refuse to deny facts, make false analogies, or act like "equality" equals "sameness".

If you want to call that "bigotry", that's your problem. I call it reality.

[Buzz Clik]

13. Here's a quote from a mainstream rightwinger:

The Boston tragedy was just one in a long, continuing series of battles being waged by Muslims against infidels. Until we acknowledge and intelligently deal with that, this will continue.

I guarantee you that this is what the knuckledraggers believe. They have no concept that:

1) Not all Muslims espouse the radical views of the Taliban
2) Most Muslim countries are filled with peaceful people leading calm, happy lives and don't hate us for our freedom. They don't hate us at all.
3) Many Muslim countries would be difficult to recognize as Muslim countries.

Knuckledraggers don't get out much.

[shraby]

17. For the challenged here, neither Muslims or Christians want a small group of radicals

representing the Muslims or Christians as a whole. Both wish the radicals would go away and disappear into the woodwork where they belong and quit giving everyone else a bad name.

[Buzz Clik]

24. +1

[tammywammy]

26. +1 n/t

[riderinthestorm]

27. This I can agree with. I simply think the analogy is false.

One is a free speech situation, one is a terrorist act.

I don't approve of EITHER. But to equate them feels pretty wrong imho.

[whathehell]

194. Thank you. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

202. That is also my interpretation of the tweet. nt

[uponit7771]

220. +1

[Downwinder]

29. Why don't we characterize Scott Roeder as a Christian terrorist?

[Buzz Clik]

41. I would.

[REP]

64. I do; also Shelley Shannon, Eric Rudolph and all anti-abortion terrorists

[Fumesucker]

30. Substitute Abortion Clinic bombers and you'd have a lot better analogy

WBC is vile but they aren't killers and don't break the law.

[DainBramaged]

32. (sigh) the tweet stands on it's own, no need to dissect it thank you

[Fumesucker]

35. DU is a discussion board, I'm discussing your OP not dissecting it

I thought it was pretty weak myself even though I understand the point, Abortion Clinic bombers would make a lot bigger impact.

If you want a name, Scott Roeder or Eric Rudolph would do fine, Olympic Bomber would work too.

[DainBramaged]

38. ....

The woman is A MUSLIM to you get it yet????? That is her point.


Holy shit.

[Fumesucker]

45. To my mind that makes it even worse

I don't even want to deny WBC their freedom of speech although if you look at the thread about the Teamsters and WBC you'll see that I intend to show up if they ever come to my area even if I have to do it alone and I wrote that before I looked at your thread.

I like you quite a bit Dain but you're way too sensitive for DU sometimes, go take a few bong hits or something, it'll mellow you out.

[DainBramaged]

46. Here too

be well my friend

[The Straight Story]

50. Gun owners view criminals who use guns....

Basically, less than 1% of gun owners use them in crimes.

And yet we are branding them all the same. A small percent of muslims are islamic 'terrorists' as well - but when it comes to them we want to tread lightly and politely.

Maybe we could take a page from this tweet and start treating others here with a little more open mindedness when it comes to some topics.

[DainBramaged]

51. Nope, most us us simply want tighter controls on who gets a gun

hell cops have guns, aren't they the heroes of Boston?



It sucks you had to drag the gun agenda into the thread it really does..........

[The Straight Story]

52. Ah, but it is not about gun agenda

It about how we view things across the board as progressives.

If you believe one you should the other.

0.2% (give or take) of gun owners use their guns in crimes. Probably less a percent than muslims who engage in terrorism.

Yet day after day we get bombarded with the .2% in an effort to vilify them, which is what the right is doing with muslims.

I call BS on both, do you?

[DainBramaged]

53. I refuse to undulge you and your gun fetish

have a nice morning.

[The Straight Story]

55. So, in other words, you are wrong

and you won't apply the same logic you are asking others here too about muslims to gun owners.

Got it

[DainBramaged]

56. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

[BainsBane]

61. Some interests in society

Are so self-absorbed that the loss of human life is inconsequential in comparison to their own egos.

[BainsBane]

60. No we are not

There is a world of difference between an ordinary gun owner and those who oppose gun control measures put forward by the The President and Democratic congress. The former care about human life and are open to reasonable restrictions while the latter are self-absorbed enablers of murder. Ordinary gun owners don't take every incident as an opportunity to whine about how persecuted they are. They understand that the loss of human life is more important than their egos.

[Apophis]

54. The religion still sucks.

Men beat their wives, women have to be subservient to men, women are forced to to cover up...

[DainBramaged]

58. And Christianity is any different?

do you wonder why there is such a debate about women's rights in the US?

[Apophis]

66. Christianity sucks too.

There'd be fewer people suffering in this world if all religion were abolished.

[BainsBane]

108. There you go

Exterminate 90% of the world's population who dares to think differently from you. Or perhaps you simply mean denying their right to be who they are rather than who you think they should be? What a disaster the American educational system has become.

A word to observers here: If you find yourself on the same side as the Klan and the rest if the far right on an issue, you're wrong, no matter how you try to justify it. Bigotry is bigotry; justifications are just window dressing.

[Apophis]

111. You thrive on stirring shit, don't you?

I'm allowed to hate religion. I'm an atheist.

I'm done with you.

[Phillip McCleod]

137. yeh for some folks it seems like every post..

..is a vanity post.

[BainsBane]

154. If someone is going to espouse bigotry

I will call them on it. How is it that you do not find problematic blaming an entire people for the actions of two men?

[BainsBane]

155. What I am is someone who finds bigotry repulsive

Anyone who posts bigoted comments deserves to be called on it. If you don't like it, don't do so.

Your statements are a clear violation of TOS:
"Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic."

[Apophis]

160. Since when is pointing out facts considered bigotry?

You caused a lot of trouble in meta and I'm sure you didn't help that forum out at all.

[BainsBane]

164. What facts?

Gong for gratuitous personal swipes doesn't make your arguments appear any more sound. It is what someone does when they can't support an argument with substance.

What facts have you sited? I've seen nothing but stereotypes I could hear on any RW entertainment outlet.

[Apophis]

166. Post 73 and 80.

You were fun to play with, but I've grown tired of you. Obviously you couldn't care less about LGBT rights and women's rights when it comes to Islam.

Ignored.

Go stir your vile shit elsewhere.

[BainsBane]

169. Now you care about women's rights?

Interesting. Well, it provides a convenient club to justify your hatred of Islam, so I suppose it serves a rhetorical purpose here. I do kind of wonder how it's possible to care about women in the Muslim world while simultaneously despising them because of their religion and ethnic identity. Strikes me as contradictory.

And how do LBGT rights hinge on hatred of a large section of the world's population? I don't think most members of that community share your hatred of Muslims. Cultivating hatred of one group isn't a good way to promote equal rights for another. Granted, I know far more lesbians than gay men, but not a single one is an Islamophobe, or bigoted toward any group for that matter. Come to think of it, none of the gay men I know are either. Of course many are long-time friends from graduate school or work colleagues. They are intelligent and well-educated.

In terms of your charges of vile shit, I'm comfortable with my own views. I don't foment hatred of any group. As I said, if you don't want to be called on shit, don't spew it. It's really that simple.

I suggest unignoring me long enough to read Skinner's response tomorrow to my post in ATA.

[BainsBane]

172. Interesting that your litmus test for carrying about LGBT

and women's rights is hatred of Islam and Muslims. I don't see the logic. That's because there is none.

[Scootaloo]

182. Cherry-picked facts may be individually factual, but serve to create a false whole

Over on Stormfront, they have a special forum titled "Jewish criminals." It's basically a catalogue of Jewish people who are, in fact, criminals of some variety or other. They're not made-up, nor are their crimes. Everything there, taken individually, is fact. Assembled into one folder labeled "Jewish criminals," however, creates a false narrative - that their Jewishness is hand-in-hand with their criminality. Perhaps even that only Jews can be criminals, if taken to the "logical" point the people at that freakshow are trying to make.

So too with your characterization of Islam and - by proxy - the 2 billion people who are Muslims. No, you're not wrong that there are Muslims who mistreat others, and some teachings in some texts to back up their abuses. But there are many more Muslims who do no such things, and their actions, too, have canonical support. To take only the negative and apply it as the defining feature of these people is to create a false narrative, even if the instances you have in mind are individually true.

While your mileage may vary, my own atheism stems not from a belief that follower of one religion are inherently worse than followers of another with an ass-covering "...but they're all bad" at the end; rather, it comes from an inability to buy into the inherent silliness of magical beings that have superpowers and control the world around us. But hey, some atheists are Dawkins, some are Hitchens, I suppose.

[whathehell]

217. "Bigotry" is a strong word and, at times, well-meaning people disagree on what constitutes it, IMO.

Some is just blatant...Others, not so much.

Just my take. .

[whathehell]

209. Women's rights not to be beaten are at least protected by law in Western aka "Christian" countries.

Not so sure of that in places like Saudi Arabia where women aren't even allowed to DRIVE.

Conflating the two just won't work -- Seriously.

[BainsBane]

59. So relieved no non-Muslim men beat their wives

That 1 in 3 American women are beaten or raped by their partners is entirely inconsequential? Os is that somehow the fault of Muslims too? The ignorance in the above post is tremendous. They make them cover up? Veiling is not required in all Muslim societies. There is no monolithic Islam. This kind of hateful rhetoric is a clear violation of TOS that disallows bigotry. A jury should have hidden this post. If I wanted to read ignorant dribble, I'd go to Free Republic. We don't need it here.

[Apophis]

65. I'm criticizing a religion.

Since when is it wrong to point out all that is wrong with a religion? Why is Islam off the table?

[BainsBane]

69. Because you don't know what you're talking about

You don't have the most basic knowledge to work from. You clearly know nothing about Islam or Muslim countries and instead spree hateful and repulsive stereotypes inculcated in you in order to justify endless war in the Middle East and Central Asia. We will be hearing the same thing from Rush tomorrow, so thanks for the preview.

[Apophis]

73. As a bisexual atheist, I'd be put to death in an Islamic country.

Tell me again why I shouldn't be allowed to criticize the religion?

[Blue_In_AK]

77. My Muslim son-in-law

is 100% in favor of gay marriage. Fail.

[Apophis]

80. Fail?

So I wouldn't be put to death in Saudi Arabia, U.A.E., Iran, Bangladesh for being a bisexual atheist?



Cute anecdote, btw.

[Blue_In_AK]

85. You're talking about countries and their laws

which I agree are barbaric, but you do realize that there are modern Muslims living all over the world, don't you?

[Apophis]

86. And what are the laws based on?

[Blue_In_AK]

100. A perverted reading of the Koran,

similar to the way some Christians pervert the teachings of Jesus. And you do know that there are factions here who would love for that brand of Christianity to be our " official" religion, right? We have our own Talibangelicals, but because we have a diverse and multicultural society, not a homogenous one like some in the ME, our religious freaks are held somewhat in check.

There are approximately 3 million Muslims in America. If they're generally waging jihad or telling you you can't be a bisexual atheist, I'm not seeing it.

[JI7]

118. do you think a country whose laws are based on the Bible interpreted by wingnuts

is going to be anything great ?

[BainsBane]

171. Okay, given your vast knowledge

If Muslims are inherently violent and intolerant, how do you explain Al-Andalus, Ataturk, and Suleiman the Magnificent? How do you explain the Golden Age? How do you explain Averroes critique of gender inequality, or the scientific innovations of Ibn Sina and Fatima Al-Majritiya? How do you explain the fact at a time when Western society saw science as heretical, Islam saw no tension between science and Allah, so that the world's greatest innovations of the early scientific world were paved in Muslim lands centuries before Europeans like Copernicus appropriated (read plagiarized) them into Western thought? (Source, George Saliba of Columbia University).

Does colonialism and American occupation ever enter into your consciousness? Would it ever occur to you to learn enough about history to understand how certain anti-Western tenets of fundamentalist Islam, which you falsely believe to represent Islam as a whole, emerged out of a specific political context?

That is a bit of history, or as you call it, shit stirring.

[BainsBane]

167. Provide evidence that is the case

Provide evidence of laws in the above countries implementing the death penalty for atheism or bisexuality, as well as evidence that people have actually been executed. Since your comment is about Islam as a whole, for your point to be true you would need to be put to death in EVERY country with a majority Muslim population.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. You would not be put to death in Indonesia, one of the most populous Islamic countries in the world

[Bluenorthwest]

135. Indonesia is religiously diverse, and 53 of the provences have Islamic majority and jail

fines and worse for gay people. So 'not put to death' is about as much as one can say about Indonesia because in some regions one can be jailed for being gay. In the non Islamic majority regions of Indonesia, the laws are better.
Sorry, but people need to know this for their safety.

[Turborama]

147. I don't know where you get those numbers from, but they're wrong & it is not illegal to be gay

Also, Indonesia has a constitution which does not explicitly address sexual orientation or gender identity : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Indonesia

Homosexuality is not illegal in Indonesia and is not specifically criminalized. In 2009, Aceh’s provincial legislative council passed a measure criminalizing homosexuality; however, it has not been signed into law. In recent years, hardliners have disrupted some LGBT events, but there are a number of LGBT organizations and venues across Indonesia, particularly in major cities and tourist areas.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_2052.html

[BainsBane]

168. I believe that the the only part of Indonesia with Sharia Law is Aceh

and that was allowed in an attempt to pacify an independence movement.

[BainsBane]

98. You profess hatred for the rest if the world

Yet expect you should be treated with respect while doing so? Being an atheist or bisexual doesn't justify your bigotry of others. Like so many of my fellow Americans, you think yourself entitled to what you deny the rest of the world. You pay taxes to murder hundreds of thousands of Muslims and then think yourself entitled to condemn an entire swath if the world's population when two men who happen to be Muslim kill a few Americans and then invoke your own hypothetical persecution as an excuse to justify hatred. I've read enough for six lifetimes from you.

[Apophis]

104. Hyperbole much?

It's okay that I get put to death in an Islamic country for being bi and godless, but I'm still not allowed to criticize the religion, according to you?

[BainsBane]

110. No one is putting you to death

To criticize a religion, you would have to know something about it. You do not.

[Apophis]

113. I'm not wrong.

Just admit it.

[Violet_Crumble]

127. But you are wrong with the broadbrush generalisations...

Just admit it.

[JI7]

112. depends on which islamic country , not in turkey or tunisia

[pipoman]

71. Which predominately Christian countries have anything

resembling the law in most Islamic countries?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_marital_jurisprudence

"That 1 in 3 American women are beaten or raped by their partners is entirely inconsequential? "

No, not inconsequential..illegal...in most Islamic countries however it is simply a man keeping his property in line...

[BainsBane]

76. Provide evidence

Go on. FYI, that lame Wikipedia post isn't it, since there s no such thing as a singular Islamic law. Tell us about was about domestic battery in Tunisia and Turkey, for example.

And if the law s so effective in this country, why are so many more women killed by their partners here than in so many Muslim countries? I'll give you a hint: It's your other pet cause, guns.

[pipoman]

119. This is a good one too..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam

Happy as clams they are...the women that is...

Oh I have an interest in all civil rights/liberties...

[BainsBane]

121. Have you heard of something called the nation-state?

Is it that hard to figure out that laws are set by countries, whether they are nations or kingdoms?
Your determination to imagine a single monolithic Islam truly is amazing, particularly in context of a discussion where you claim to site law as a distinction yet somehow can't manage to go so far as to identify a single country on the map or a single law it has passed.

Discussions about Muslims and Islam over the past couple of days has led me to the conclusion that our country lacks a citizenry with the educational level necessary to participate in democracy. No wonder the neocons, the NRA, and Pamela Geller are able to have so much influence. We truly are fucked.

[pipoman]

218. LOL

Wow..nothing I've said could be even remotely misconstrued into monolithic islam..Do I really need to wiki islamic nations for you? Are they all identical? No. Are some pretty civil? Yep. Are most which have a strong islamic influence in their government misogynistic hell for women? I'll let you answer that one..Would you wish to live in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, (need I go on) as a woman?

[BainsBane]

221. You cited two links about "Islam"

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2013, 05:45 AM - Edit history (1)

You didn't even try to provide evidence of laws from specific countries. You have ONLY talked about a monolithic Islam. You didn't even make an effort to do anything else.

No, I wouldn't care to live in those countries. But I do know that women are killed at much higher rates in this country than many others. I don't like killers whether they are Muslims with bombs or disaffected white guys with AR-15s that come courtesy of the NRA and its lackeys. Dead is dead, and guns kill far more of our children than terrorists could ever dream of doing. I know the gun lobby is a far greater danger to this nation than the most radical Islamic terrorists could ever be. We don't have to worry about terroists destroying the country. The gun nuts are doing it for them.

[whathehell]

215. Thank you. n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

68. That's just bullshit.

My daughter is married to a Muslim man who is the kindest , gentlest human you'd ever want to meet. He stays home with the kids while my daughter works as a lawyer, has dinner ready for her when she comes home, and would never think of raising a hand against her.

The generalizations that are made against this 1-2 billion Muslims in the world make me sick.

[BainsBane]

70. I'm with you

There is nothing I despise more than bigotry, and I am physically I'll from seeing so much of it here. A jury actually voted 1-5 to keep that post. Evidently they would have TOS adjusted to provide an exception for bigotry against Muslims.

[Blue_In_AK]

74. I'm quite certain we must have Muslim members of DU

who are hurt each time they read this kind of garbage, not to mention my aforesaid daughter who I know is a DU member.

[BainsBane]

78. I'm pretty sure people here have made sure we have very few

Muslim members.

[Blue_In_AK]

82. Unfortunately, you're probably right about that.

DU is sometimes a very unfriendly place.

[JI7]

93. that happens in some Christian families also

[Apophis]

94. Yes it does.

It happened in my own Christian family.

[JI7]

99. and there are muslim and christian families where it doesn't happen

people are good or bad regardless of their religion. usually people who are good will be so even without the relgion. and bad people will be bad without religion also.

[Blue_In_AK]

103. Very, very well said.

Thank you.

[Mister Ed]

57. Okay, I guess someone needs to spell it out in big block letters:

The woman is saying that true Muslims reject and abhor "Islamic" terrorists just as completely as true Christians reject and abhor the Westboro Baptist Church.

Good night, everyone.

Geez.

[WinkyDink]

133. WE GET IT. That doesn't make her analogy anything more than superficially clever....but factually

stupid.

[Occulus]

151. Some of us get what she is saying very well and simply disagree.

I do not agree that "true christians" disagree with the WBC as strongly, because I am a victim of laws those same christians passed against me, to single me out, because of their religion.

This entire analogy is really rather offensive to me, actually.

[RZM]

72. That comparison does not hold up at all

Here are some polls that break down support in Muslim countries for Al-Qaida attacks against Americans. People are overwhelmingly against them, but you still have 11 percent approval in Jordan, 8 percent in Egypt (poll was pre-Revolution), 8 percent in Turkey. When you add in people who have 'mixed feelings,' those numbers get higher. 18 percent in Turkey, for example.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/591.php

I haven't seen any polls on Americans' opinions of Westboro Baptist, but there's no way they could get anything like these numbers. 8 percent of the adult population would be about 19 million supporters. 18 percent would be about 43 million American adults who either support or have mixed feelings about Westboro Baptist.

Not likely.

[Blue_In_AK]

88. Can you blame them really for having negative feelings against

the US given our interactions over decades? Has anyone polled fundamentalist Christians on how they feel about Muslims? Even here at "liberal" DU there's an unsettling amount of bigotry and misunderstanding on display.

[RZM]

106. No argument over that

Obviously the past accounts for a good deal of it. One of many reasons you can't compare it to a tiny fringe sect like WB.

[JI7]

105. have you seen the polls in America about Obama

[Blue_In_AK]

120. You've presented a false dichotomy here

You're saying Muslims in foreign countries have certain opinions about the al-Qaeda attacks in the Us. Rather than asking how many Americans support Westboro Baptist, you should be asking how many Americans approve of George Bush's Iraqi "Crusade" or Obama's drone strikes. I imagine there are still quite a few people in the USA who think they're all just grand.

Do you agree that if you were a poor peasant in Afghanistan, just living your life and minding your own business, that having your children destroyed by a drone strike might seem like terrorism to you? Do you believe that if you were an Iraqi mother who has just given birth to a horribly deformed child because of your exposure to the US's depleted uranium during your pregnancy that you might harbor some anger?

[RZM]

122. The false dichotomy is in the tweet itself

We're in agreement. Of course you can't compare the two. That's the point.

[Blue_In_AK]

124. But I appreciate the point she was trying to make

which is that most Muslims don't approve of terrorism as a tactic. Maybe she should have said that most Christians don't approve of abortion clinic bombers.

[DainBramaged]

123. So what was a message of peace has turned into a thread of hatred and gun agenda hijackers

this place never fucking ceases to amaze me


Godd night, fight amongst yourselves.

[Blue_In_AK]

125. It was a noble effort, DainBramaged.

Some of us "got it.""

[Violet_Crumble]

128. I agree. And it is heartening to see that more of us got it than not n/t

[uppityperson]

126. It was a good post.

[RZM]

129. It's a message of peace backed by good intentions. But it's still a bad comparison

Taking issue with that has nothing to do with 'hatred' or the 'gun agenda.'

[DainBramaged]

130. Really

just because a person doesn't share our viewoint they make a bad comparison?


Think outside your box

[RZM]

131. It's not about my viewpoint

Westboro is basically one tiny group of idiots who, for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, get lots of press. I'd be surprised if there are 1000 people in this country who support them (and that's being really generous). They can't seem to muster more than a handful at their protests.

That's just not the case with Islamic terrorism. As I pointed out, 8 percent of people in Turkey support Al-Qaida attacks against Americans. WB couldn't dream of 8 percent support.

[DainBramaged]

138. Why is it necessary to make this bigger than it is?

I don't understand your rationalization here.


It is what it is, period


Have a nice day

[riderinthestorm]

148. And nothing to do with bigotry or prejudice or all Muslim or Christian people etc nt

[DainBramaged]

188. You just don't want to give it up do you?

It's over pal, your line of thinking loses, get a life.

[KoKo]

132. Recommend!

[WinkyDink]

134. You know what? I've seen plenty of Christians protest the WBC. Still waiting for the

moderate Islamic community for their stand.

Today's example:
http://teamsternation.blogspot.com/2013/04/boston-teamsters-to-form-human-shield.html

So one woman---woman---Tweets a message, not of peace, but of a misguided "reminder" that "hey, Christians, you have your renegades, too, so get off your high moral horses" and we're all supposed to go, "Ooooh! WHAT a great point!"

No.

[Bluenorthwest]

136. As always, I point out to people of faith that Westboro flourished not because the good

Christians are like them, but because the good did precious little to oppose them for years and years during which WBC staged tens of thousands (yes) of demonstrations in all 50 States. They showed up for years unopposed by any organized groups from the faith community. Their targets and victims were left to answer WBC on their own. I contend that had the faith community stood up and defended others against WBC sooner, had they spoken up for their own faith sooner, WBC would not have become such a large and potent organ of hate. And much good will would have been nurtured.
I would urge other faith communities to strive to do better than the mainstream churches did when dealing with WBC.

[catbyte]

139. Yeah, well, as despicable as WBC is, they haven't bombed anything as far as I know.

There's a difference. Nice try, I guess.

[DainBramaged]

140. So you're of the 'All Muslims are terrorists' camp?

[catbyte]

145. Not at all. It's a bogus equivalency and I am flabbergasted that you made that leap

regarding me. I am very insulted. Shame on you.

[DainBramaged]

146. "well, as despicable as WBC is, they haven't bombed anything "

Shame on you, you brought it up. We aren't all blind (even though I am partially).

[whathehell]

219. What in the WORLD is "shameful" about noting that WBC hasn't bombed anything"?

It's true. Why would you have a problem with a stated fact?

[ecstatic]

156. I bet you weren't expecting such...odd responses

[MellowDem]

158. I view Islam the same way I view all horrible belief systems based on faith...

I'm sick of Muslims or Christians or any other religion disowning every terrorist that claims to be Muslim and Christian etc. perpetrating terrorism based on religion. No, it don't work that way. And yes, there are Muslims that view these terrorists as wonderful people, serving the cause well. No, lying to yourself about it doesn't change the facts. And yes, your belief systems are based on texts that have terrible, horrible destruction and maiming in them, and obviously, all the intellectual reworking/dishonesty to try to spitshine these vile texts isn't quite enough to erase what they are, and so some people will use them to do the things that are stated in the texts, the ones you keep proclaiming are divinely inspired and perfect.

Please, question all religion and dump this horribly destructive way of thinking. It's a plague on humanity.

Oh, and quite the fail on analogies. The WBC? They're viewed as an annoyance by Christians, not as terrorists. The WBC hasn't blown people away, though they ARE being consistent with Biblical teachings, and that's they scary part.

[BlueCheese]

162. I understand what point she's making...

That both religions have their crazy elements.

But I would hope that people view terrorists far worse than they view the WBC. I certainly do. One is a demented group of religious zealots who go around promoting their hateful beliefs with signs and slogans. The other is a demented group of religious zealots who go around promoting their hateful beliefs by killing innocent people. There's a big difference in degree there.

[blkmusclmachine]

163. .

.

[Nye Bevan]

170. How many people's limbs have been blown off by the WBC? (nt)

[Apophis]

173. Pointing that out is bigotry.

[NWLib]

174. Westboro Murders People?

No? Ya there are nut bag Christians. Do they go to other countries and blow shit up? Nope.

[DainBramaged]

175. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand what she said

But you may need some form of book learnin' to figure it out son.



If we have to esplain it, your brainpan is workin' too hard.

[Android3.14]

176. Just proves that stupid people, progressive or conservative, are...well...stupid

Equating all religions is profoundly shortsighted.
As a hopeful agnostic and being practically unable to raise my kids in an agnostic population without moving to Norway, I'd have to say that I would rather raise my kids in a nation with a dominant Christian populace than one with an Islamic population.
The WBC is to Christianity what Jack Ass is to cinema.

[DainBramaged]

187. How sad for your children you are teaching them bigotry, how sad

[whathehell]

195. Please. He's agnostic and certainly does not indicate that he is teaching "bigotry" to his kids

simply because he expresses a preference for one religious tradition an culture over another.

Stop overreacting.

[Android3.14]

222. What you call bigotry, a critical thinker calls enlightened self-interest

Only a complete fool would treat a coral snake the same as a garden snake.

[DainBramaged]

223. And a pancake is a waffle is an ice cream cone

I call it bigotry, you can call it anything you'd like it still stinks like shit


Have a nice life.

[Android3.14]

225. See, even you agree

Last edited Wed Apr 24, 2013, 07:15 PM - Edit history (1)

If it stinks, why pretend that a pile of poo on the sidewalk is the same as a landmine?

[DainBramaged]

226. Bullshit, that's the Republican way, telling me I agree, I don't agree with you period

a bigot is a bigot is a bigot, the only think I agree with is you're full of it.


Have a nice life.

[Android3.14]

227. Then I guess I don't understand your definition of bigot

I tend to use words as if they have actual meanings.
You seem to think that you are a good person if you ignore the pragmatic and antiprogressive reality of living in a culture that suppresses women's rights, promotes violence against homosexuals, has even greater wealth disparity than others, and has groups of men who will beat other people in public for behaving "inappropriately", among many-many other problems. I even infer that you would be would be happy to raise your family in such an environment.
This seems to be more of an emotional response to the rhetorical challenge rather than a reasonable use of the word "bigot".
Oxford English Dictionary defines bigot as the following:
1. A religious hypocrite; (also) a superstitious adherent of religion. Obs.
2. In extended use: a fanatical adherent or believer; a person characterized by obstinate, intolerant, or strongly partisan beliefs.
3. A person considered to adhere unreasonably or obstinately to a particular religious belief, practice, etc.

I'm supposing you are accusing me of bigotry under the second usage, i.e. "obstinate, intolerant, or strongly partisan beliefs", which seems odd because I am more than willing to change my opinion if someone can show me proof that my opinion is incorrect.

If not the second definition, then I suppose you are calling me a bigot because I disagree with you and showed your opinion was at least ill-considered, which is unfortunate and antithetical to real discussion.

[Douglas Carpenter]

177. thank you for trying. I suppose back in the the 1930's someone who spoke up against

against anti-Semitism would have gotten some of the same type of responses you got here today. I suppose someone who spoke up against anti-black racism in the 1950's would have gotten some of the same type of responses you got here today. I suppose someone who in the 1960's spoke up against anti-gay prejudice would have gotten many of the same type of responses you have gotten here today.

Every form of bigotry has its apologist who think that their particular type of prejudice is justified - because the people they hate really are bad and they are certain that the evidence supports it. The more articulate spokes people for anti-Semitism or anti-black racism or homophobia have long, long lists of evidence and fact and quotes and proofs that their particular form of bigotry is not bigotry - but they are only just telling the truth.

[DainBramaged]

185. Truth

The simplest truths are the hardest to understand, and there is a LOT of misunderstanding in this thread.


Thanks for contributing.

[whathehell]

208. "the simplest truths are the hardest to understand, and there is a LOT of misunderstanding" here.

Yes, and it started with you. What I hope you've learned from it all is this:

Don't talk down to DUers.

[whathehell]

200. Way to miss the point..

As well intentioned as the OP likely was, his "try" was to offer a poor analogy.

If, as another poster wrote, he wasn't attempting to analogize, but to "educate"

us to the fact that most Muslims are not terrorists, he screwed up there too

since the vast majority of DUers are well aware of that fact, and really

do NOT like being patronized or spoken to as if they are members

of Free Republic rather than Democratic Underground.

[malaise]

180. Profound

[whathehell]

207. Off The Mark

[CBGLuthier]

190. muslims equate free speech idiots with bomb tossing murderers?

I do not think that is a very worthy message.

[NWLib]

199. Exactly total false equivalency. Total.

Word.

[whathehell]

206. No...The false equivalency belongs to the OP for imagining that most here on DU

do not KNOW that the vast majority of muslims are not terrorists.

He and a few others here need to cozy up to a concept called "Know your audience".

We're not all the "stoopid 'murcans" he and some others may be broad brushing us as.

[madrchsod]

192. wow this post and replies fell off the rail.....

to bad the truth in that ladies tweet is lost in translation.

[Android3.14]

224. If the truth was that her analogy is bad

Then the discussion following the OP was firmly on track. Comparing the annoyance of the WBC with terrorists is like comparing beach sand in your shorts to the Gulf oil well disaster.

[DainBramaged]

228. I am amazed at how hard a few 'members' worked here to try and spread their own message of hate

about the Muslim world, amazed and sad. The attacks on the original message, those who agree with the op, and myself, makes me wonder what their agenda really is.

They can try to hide behind rationalizations and intellectual gibberish, but in the end, they are still bigots.




Enjoy your hate, because you've been exposed.

[reformist2]

229. The problem here is the difference between what she meant to say, and what she actually said.

By not comparing Islamic terrorists to an equally odious and murderous group that kills in the name of Christianity (is there one?), she actually kind of makes a point for the anti-Islamic crowd.

[DainBramaged]

230. Whatever you'd like to imagine, whatever

spread that hate

[Android3.14]

231. It appears to be your imagination that's at issue

Why is it that if someone points out a blatant error in logic and intent, the person noting it receives the label of...what have you called us...bigots and haters?
You seem to be the one who imagines that obnoxious protesters on a sidewalk are the moral equivalent of terrorists flying planes into buildings.
Do you actually believe that the WBC is the same as terrorists?
I'd be curious if you would like to address that question.

[closeupready]

233. Thank you, Yasira Jaan - most excellent point.

K&R

On edit, it's interesting that I am the first person here to make note of Ms. Jaan's name, even though this is post #233. I wonder why that is.

[DainBramaged]

234. It is amazing how this was received here, simply amazing

progressives we, uh not so much maybe......

[whathehell]

236. It's amazing to you, at least. not so much to me and some others here

and it has absolutely nothing to do with how "progressive" we are.


I hope you understand that at some point.

[Android3.14]

237. The reception speaks highly of the overall critical thinking skills of the progressive mindset

Progressive people tend to be pretty alert.
The cool response is because the OP was ineffective at best and achieved the exact opposite of the supposed intent at worst (i.e. that terrorists are as benign as the WBC), and alert folks see that.
What I find odd is how the people who were suckered into equating the WBC and terrorists, when challenged on the error, defend themselves by labeling the people who were alert enough to avoid the faux pas with the tag of bigot and hater.
It's rather unfortunate.