General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOWS committed suicide....
It was a long slow death that started when they refused to identify leaders who people could have coalesced around, and ended when after 4 months, they still had moved pass,the 'sitting around in parks' stage of their 'movement. They had no plan for how to capitalize on the police forcing them out. That was evident after the Zuccatti park eviction caused the orginal group to shrivel up.
It's a shame. The occupy movement could have been so much more, if only they had listened in the beginning when people told the, that there message was convoluted and you can't base a nationwide movement around no personality.
salin
(48,954 posts)that it is time for an obit just yet.
Swede
(33,144 posts)It's waking up again.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)I'd love to be proved wrong, id love to see a leaner, more focused movement start this spring, but that would require more coordination then OWS, in it's current form, is capable of.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)TBF
(31,922 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Occupy is holding regular events, free classes and actions in cities across the country. It is very much alive as a movement, growing and evolving.
A singular message and national leader would have destroyed them for sure. See this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002268300
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)Seriously, I don't think OWS should be eulogized until Spring arrives. If it doesn't revive in the spring, then you might be correct. I don't have a clue whether OWS will continue to be a force in politics or not. We shall see.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)While things are done on a concensus basis in each occupy, the organizers are still going strong.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)Consensus. Silly idea that allowed the movement to be coopted by anyone with an agenda and enough people.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)As long as big money controls the system and both parties, we will not die.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Occupy continues with weekly, often daily actions, community classes and campaigns. They are still very active in local cities and towns making a real difference in people's lives.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)How can we build an equitable society that lasts longer than the New Deal did?
I think the challenges of finding a lasting remedy for the problems of our social structure lie beyond the scope of the doctrines of socialism, liberalism, or any other political "fix." Almost any hierarchy seems to become dominated by power-junkies, regardless of their nominal ideology. Witness the history of the Soviet Union, or of China. No matter how democratic and humanistic Marx might have been, those acting in his name have often perverted ins teachings.
Autocrats of all stripes love centralization, at least up to the level just beneath them, and seek to pull power away from the people and political structures under them.
In too many cases, the following model applies:
Marx:Marxists::Christ:Christians
I have been preaching the virtues of leaderless organizations here, and have been watching the worldwide popular movements of the past year. What I see is a global populace using new tools such as the social media in uniting, informing itself, and initiating a loosely coordinated series of actions. There is no strongly hierarchical organization, there are no permanent leaders, but there is a group decision-making process. There is planning. People see what needs to be done, and do it, be it setting up an aid station, distributing food, or cleaning up litter.
I think we are nowhere near discovering the potential power that springs from universal one-to-many communication, in which any person with an idea can communicate it to others, and watch it go viral if people start finding merit in it. In fact, the whole movement rests largely upon this power.
Socialism to me means an equitable distribution of both goods and power. In the past, attempts to enact socialist policies have always relied upon centralized power in the hands of a few leaders--in other words, a power structure not too different from those of the capitalist countries. Both the capitalist and socialist power structures severely limit the freedom of the ordinary person.
The leaderless direct democracy exists in direct contradistinction to the hierarchical model of organization that has been typical of human societies for the past several thousand years.
In fact, I think that the new leaderless organizations may best be compared to a number of pre-agricultural societies, such as those of the woodland Indians of North America. Among many of these tribes, the leaders had no institutional power beyond that of persuasion. A given person might develop a reputation as a good leader of war parties, and people might look to him when it came time to raid an enemy. He would lay out his scheme for battle and everyone would talk about it, making modifications based on suggestions from the group members. If you didn't like the resulting plan, you were free to express your differences, and, ultimately, you were free to go your own way if you could not resolve those differences. Leadership was not a paid position. A good leader was simply someone who could get most people to accept his ideas. In daily life, he lived in the same way as everyone else, engaging in the same economic activities and suffering the same hardships.
Historically, that sort of direct participatory democracy could only function in small groups because people needed to meet face-to-face. The advent of agriculture pretty much destroyed this type of democracy, for two reasons, both related to the increased availability of food. First, the population increased beyond a size that could comfortably meet and confer, and (much more importantly), the extra food meant that not everyone had to spend all their time trying to feed themselves, so some leisure time became available. Priesthoods and monarchies arose based on the new infrastructure. The priests specialized in acquiring (real or imagined) knowledge, and the monarchs specialized in building power structures and regulating the lives of their subjects. Sometimes the priests and rulers were one and the same, and sometimes the roles were separated, but they always stood in alliance, reinforcing and checking each other's power.
Modern government descends from the social structures and social assumptions that arose with the advent of agriculture. All such governments are hierarchical in nature, and tend to be marked by imbalances in information flow. That is, the rulers and priests controlled access to information through one-to-many communication devices, while the peasantry were limited to (at most) one-to-one (or at best, one-to-a-few) communication with each other, and only very limited forms of communication with their rulers and priests.
The Industrial Revolution that began in the 18th Century is often cited as the next phase after the Era of Agriculture. I think this is a somewhat overblown notion because while the advent of the machine did shift power balances around somewhat among the ruling classes, it did not fundamentally change the hierarchical, centralized nature of social organization--except, in some ways, to facilitate its development and amplify its scale. The same pattern of one-to-many communication for the powerful and one-to-one communication for the masses persisted.
Only now, in the Information Age, is this ancient model starting to break up.
I see the Occupy movement as the first, embryonic stirrings of a totally new mode of social organization that will bring global changes to the species that are at least as significant as the changes that occurred with the Agricultural Revolution.
I believe that the advent of mass one-to-many communication in the hands of the people will permit us to recapture the advantages of tribal self-government, to break down the walls of hierarchy, and institute a species-wide, totally democratic network of self-governance unlike anything the world has ever seen.
Lucky Luciano
(11,242 posts)communism is doomed from the outset since the leaders of the party will be corrupted by power just as much as the capitalists get corrupted. The ambitious people will try to become communist party leaders instead of Wall Street financiers or hedge fund managers etc.
RKP5637
(67,032 posts)whichever flavor are eventually doomed and corrupted by power. ... and with the power of money as we see in our country now. The power hungry would just shift their ambitions to whatever the new '-ism' was.
Marr
(20,317 posts)And I can't imagine any other single group with more reason and resources to make the attempt.
Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)It's not too late for a well-trained Border Collie, to herd Black Sheep.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)but the message is perfectly obvious to me.
Restrict the excessive power of the corporations and the wealthy.
Their strategy of not having chosen leaders is perfectly reasonable. It keeps the cops, politicians and the corporate media from targeting individuals.
Occupy is alive and well and growing, no matter what the naysayers assume.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)When members of the movement do idiotic things like steal and burn a flag or, hit a cop n the head with a brick, there is no personality available to disown those actions and to assure the public that OWS wasn't just made up of crazy kids looking to get into a little anarchy.
No real leadership killed the movement before it even started.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)I thought their concerns were voiced clearly enough for any person of reasonable intelligence.
The corporate media purposely chose to obfuscate them.
As far as stealing and burning the flag, the photos clearly showed that the people doing it covered most of their faces with bandannas. I STRONGLY doubt they were members of OWS. I suspect they were paid trolls.
I don't know any details about the brick incident, but I suspect the thrower could have been another hired troll. It just doesn't sound like something that anyone I know in OWS would do. The vast majority of OWS participants would refuse to tolerate it. Same with the flag burning.
I should also add that the U.S. Capitol police are some of the most vicious cops around. I've seen them ride their horses right into and onto demonstrators and beat people at random since the Vietnam War days. I live right outside DC and I have seen this time and again. I would not attempt to tangle with them for anything.
The corporate media shows the world what it WANTS the world to see.
I remember going to a very large, very peaceful antiwar demonstration in New York's Central Park in the early 1970s. While leaving this very peaceful demonstration, I stopped and watched an ABC News crew filming several actors having a staged fight. The actors, unlike the majority of real demonstrators, were dressed like thugs. There was NOTHING like this in the real demonstration, it was just the media's intention to destroy the peace movement's credibility by depicting them as a bunch of dirty violent hippie thugs.
Witnessing that destroyed any faith that I'd once had in major media -- and I'll have you know that I spent more than 25 years as a print journalist, including more than a decade at one of the larger newspapers in the US.
People should not make assumptions based on what they see on TV.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)Hired agitators. Let's ignore the fact that OWS members have been covering their faces since inception to protect against pepper spray and the fact that a real living person was seriously injured when he got hit in the head with a brick, because what we got her is a conspiracy!
randome
(34,845 posts)Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Rachel Maddow? I have yet to see anyone address why they mention OWS only in passing.
Without clear leadership or consistent messaging, all OWS seems to be concerned with these days is fighting the cops and proving their own relevance.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Their strategy of not having chosen leaders is perfectly reasonable.
However, your view of leaders is not. Leaders are not chosen--they lead.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)How?
Specifically.
BeFree
(23,843 posts)Can hardly believe anyone has to say this, but what the hey.....
We the People will force our government to write laws that restrict the excessive power.
Until now, before Occupy got going, the People were lead astray by the corrupt politicians and the M$M. Now we have come together, and throwing off the shackles which bound us to our seats, are joining together to speak with one united voice.
And that voice is saying: You want to remain an elected leader in this country? Then you will begin listening to the 99% and tell the 1% to sit down and shut up.
The congress will do our bidding because they know if they don't they will be looking for a job real soon.
You really should join us. Its fun!
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)You do realize that "We the People" are (or are alt least supposed to be) the gov't.
Why are you expecting someone else to write the laws?
Do you not know what laws you want written?
If not, how are those mysterious people in "our gov't" going to know what laws you want?
That's why I asked "Specifically". You just gave vague generalities.
So I'll ask again: Specifically how do you ""Restrict the excessive power of the corporations and the wealthy. "?
vaberella
(24,634 posts)I'm with the 99% not OWS.
Vanje
(9,766 posts)vaberella
(24,634 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You're stating the obvious.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)Most others are saying how much they support it or think it's worthwhile and so on and so forth. I don't see how that's even stating the obvious since I never stated I didn't support it before hand. I could have been one of the supporters or those who think it's alive.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,154 posts)How nice.
that's almost the same as "Get your government hands off of my Medicare!"
vaberella
(24,634 posts)I think not. I never knew that I had to support every group that has come out. OWS in New York I support---- but the faction as a whole. Nope. I think it's my right and I see no where in my post that implies anything you've interpreted. But it's whatever. I'm not a follower. I believe in what I believe in. If I don't agree with something. I don't I don't see how that even suggests anything about "Get your government hands off my medicare."
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)He allowed himself to get a little enthusiastic one time with the cameras rolling and it was used to bludgeon his candidacy.
Think of that times infinity, that's what would be launched at any OWS "leader" who was naive enough to identify herself.
ETA: It's also instructive to look at what happened to a twelve year old kid that ran afoul of the M$M smear machine.. Graeme Frost.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)We can't ever forget how the Republicans act in these situations.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)..no matter the weather.. That worked out awesomely.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)It's 39 degrees right now in NYC. Last night was 32 degrees, that's freezing out.
They all should go for a swim!
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)They were just a bunch of punk kids who were looking for a party instead of real change.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)You obviously don't consider life and death into any equation.
think
(11,641 posts)SammyWinstonJack
(44,129 posts)Kellerfeller
(397 posts)the "real" quarterback.
think
(11,641 posts)The OP is denigrating a movement for being less active in winter while saying so from the comfort of the indoors.
Fair enough?
It is one thing to disagree with OWS tactics, actions, and/or goals and another thing entirely to belittle those who are making an effort to call out the corruption on Wall Street that is going unchecked by our government.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)they claimed they were going to go strong through the winter..and didn't.
Mosaic
(1,451 posts)We're only 6 weeks from Spring, and the rebirth of Occupy/99%. Occupy has done a lot we should be thankful for instead of listening to idiots like Bill Mahr criticsize something they really don't understand. Of course the 1% media and ruling class feel threatened, but it was they who boiled the frogs, us, in a pot for 30 years of class warfare. We're in a second gilded age, unless you are not a real Democrat, you should support this movement with all your heart, it may be the best last chance we get.
Kellerfeller
(397 posts)Unless you really believe that someone cannot support an idea or goal and still think that some people are wrong in their method of trying to reach that goal.
Or do you think that everyone has to support your methods in order to also support your end goal.
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)Either they are bums without jobs if they linger too long and cause trouble or they are not committed enough for taking time off during snow storms and are all fair weather. There is no winning for OWS in some peoples eyes. Bill Maher was just being a jerk, but there are people that front the argument he did with every ounce of venom they can.
JHB
(37,132 posts)So the real change will come about by just sitting in the park partying? Awesome! Let's all go to your park so you can show us all how to do it the right way!
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)Is that not what the rw said they were going to do? Personally, I don't believe the 'they just went inside while it was cold meme' but if that's the excuse that some here want to make, then they need to answer how that doesn't fit into the rw prediction for OWS.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)Occupy Fairbanks is still camping out in the cold, despite it being -40 up there. You can't generalize from a few Occupy groups to the entire movement. Occupy Anchorage is still having weekly general assemblies and joining various community protests that come up -- marching on picket lines on behalf of the hotel workers at the Sheraton and Hilton, circulating petitions on local issues, especially an equal rights referendum for GLBT that's coming up for a vote in April, volunteering and many other local activities. One occupier I know here gives a weekly speech at our Town Square park whether anyone besides me is there or not. Protesters have been occupying our Municipal Assembly meetings even.
Occupy can mean many things to many different people, but it's far from dead.
[img][/img]
hack89
(39,171 posts)looks like OWS are a bunch of pussies.
roody
(10,849 posts)demmiblue
(36,751 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts).. you run with that.
Faux Snooze says so..
.. so it must be true.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)For example, occupy San diego held a major event yesterday, not that channel seven, NBC San Diego, two blocks from, could be bothered. They will be holding a class today, and another major event for all so cal occupies next week.
That is not a dead movement.
But the corporate media goes out of its way... In fact the smallers ones too. There is a certain level of exhaustion and "the old story" creeping in.
But dead, hardly.
randome
(34,845 posts)Jon Stewart? Stephen Colbert? Rachel Maddow? Keith Olberman? They don't seem to think this is as important as you WANT it to be.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)On its quite obvious shortcomings.
randome
(34,845 posts)It's human nature. A lot of people latched onto OWS when it first started because it had such potential.
If 'evolving' is still part of the equation, people have got to understand that leadership and consistent messaging MUST be part of it.
Now there are a hundred OWS groups with about seventy different messages. So much noise, no one can hear what they are saying any longer.
'Changing the conversation' was a good start. But after six months, that's all OWS stands for?
Vanje
(9,766 posts)Its on cable or the internet.
Hell its on the radio twice a day here in the reddest red state.
randome
(34,845 posts)Not many listen to radio any more. And it still doesn't explain why the 'heavy hitters' of Stewart, Colbert, Maddow, etc. don't cover it more.
I know it's been said that they have to toe the line in regards to their corporations' interests but I don't think that's the full story.
Mosaic
(1,451 posts)These 'liberals' you mention will not move the country to the left. They are centrists who play lefties to placate the masses. You really should know that by now. Current and Msnbc are clever in this way, watch the ties and the ads for clues. They sold out their true beliefs long ago for their cushy job, and fun 'play DC gossip job all day'.
Vanje
(9,766 posts)Democracy Now is my main news source, and I am as rural as can be.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Are you really interested in attracting people who acquire their knowledge from this provider?
[font color="black" size="5" face=" Trebuchet MS "]Would You Expect Much Help?[/font]
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Whatever dude.. Whoossshhh!!!!
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)The resonance moving air and empty thoughts...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Live with it or not, I really could give two shits about it.
And the elite (the media is part of it) wish occupy was indeed dead.
Try this, find local camp and find out just how dead they are. I dare you. For that matter the same goes for each and every person claiming them are dead.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)I am not entirely confident that I understand what you mean; however, if they do not "press" or "move" on me, I can live with whatever "the press" "moves on."
You will not find words written by me "wishing" for, or declaring the movement "dead." However, you will surely find words expressing skepticism with respect to the tactics employed by individuals who lack forethought and wisdom.
To persevere, moral legitimacy must be established and maintained at all costs.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But all social justice movements find themselves there... This too shall pass and people here will continue to declare it dead...like the women's movement before it, or labor, or civil right...well you get the picture.
Also the media is seldom friendly to grass roots movements. Huge clue as to why tea party was not (two weeks in) a grass root movement.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)and expand its tactical playbook. it will also require some leadership and discipline to prevent the flag burners and rock throwers from being distractions. If you are right and it is dead then it has already done something nobody else has done which is make income inequality an issue in the msm.
think
(11,641 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:55 PM - Edit history (1)
Adding sarcasm balloons. My apologies for those that thought I was serious.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Could you please explain?
think
(11,641 posts)And with the help of Faux News and other unknown wealthy entities they helped shape the positive image of the Tea Party and made sure it was not tarnished.
OWS gets very little support especially from the 1% and the media which are actively working to discredit OWS and paint them in as horrid an unflattering light as possible.
The disparity between $$ support and propaganda support is ENORMOUS.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)This thread is so trollish that I've having a hard time telling the pros from the cons.
think
(11,641 posts)kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)Despite having very few events that gets much past the 100 person marker the media continues to treat them with absurd levels of relevence and continues to give them seperate responses to the state of the union address.
And rather than people here all boosting for OWS we have a clutch of anti-OWS sorts here constantly deriding, scorning, and dismissing them. (though usually dismissals are done quietly)
JHB
(37,132 posts)Frankly I'd be more worried if OWS was still doing exactly the same things as back in October.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)JHB
(37,132 posts)If we never hear from OWS again, or from people who were motivated by it, I'll give you my apologies for questioning your insightful analysis. Big plate of crow, smothered in "I was a jackass" sauce.
Will you do the same if they or their direct legacy do surface again?
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)I don't disagree with that.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It's not even funny.
This message brought to you by a neo-liberal member of the right wing.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)....then you are a respected journalist. I think we know, deep in our hearts, that neither of those accusations are true.
randome
(34,845 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)That be right wing.
Sorry to burst that bubble.
Have a good day with your delusion that it is dead ok.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)JHB
(37,132 posts)I find your excessive certainty unconvincing.
PSPS
(13,516 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)There was no "they" to talk with.
Since there wasn't a "they," then it must have been that no one volunteered to step up and take on the mantle of the OWS movement.
Then to make matters worse, the OWS movement got labeled with what some of the crazies did at OWS encampments, like throwing condoms at minor Catholic girls, rape, murder, etc. Much like the Tea Party got blamed for the wackos at TP events packing heat, or gleefully carrying signs showing Obama dressed as an African witchdoctor.
It's a danger when you have a loose group of people having protests where just anyone can show up and become affiliated with teh group just by being there.
Still, I think OWS was HUGELY successful. Obama and others can't say "fairness" enough. It has caused millions to think of "fairness," when they think of govt policies. It brought home to people the crux of the matter: not envy of the wealthy, but fairness in the system. I am very proud and in awe of those who first took to the streets and parks. They did something for our country that speeches and politicians can't do. I personally believe that the OWS message will last much longer than the TP's message.
madamesilverspurs
(15,784 posts)How come nobody told us until now? Sheesh, had we known we wouldn't have shown up last night to protest Santorum. And we wouldn't have gone to the trouble of scheduling a series of public teach-ins. We certainly wouldn't have bothered with the effort to partner with single-issue groups that share one or two of our many concerns. Goodness, now what are we supposed to do with all the signs we've been painting?
Sorry to disappoint, but we ain't anywhere near dead.
Spazito
(49,765 posts)Wishful thinking on your part.
OWS is still alive. To paraphrase Mark Twain, 'The reports of (OWS's) death are greatly exaggerated'.
Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)
Post removed
randome
(34,845 posts)Your unwarranted anger shows that you have deeper issues about OWS than you are willing to admit.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)infiltrated the Democratic party. Sometimes it is just like talking to a Republican from the early nineties, sometimes it is exactly the same because many in our party now would have (or actually have) been attracted to the early nineties Republican platform.
These could be the same people if I closed my eyes and went back 20 years.
suston96
(4,175 posts)Its strength lies in the very fact that it happened.
Back to the Orange revolution in the Ukraine which overturned a dishonest election to the middle eastern revolutions the assemblies of hundreds of thousands showed their strength and personality - the very acts of assembling to protest whatever was prevalent at the time.
The OWS movements in America needed no explicit message or nominated personality. The assemblies themselves - hundreds of them - WERE the messages and the personalities. And they resonated. Loudly and clearly.
The next time they will assemble will be on the first Tuesday of November next. At that time their messages and their leaders will be more discernible.
ananda
(28,783 posts)It's an evolving movement.
NewEngland4Obama
(414 posts)trying to convice others that the occupy movement isn't really getting their message across for some strange reason..
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)And when none was found, the rw said ' well NOBODY could have seen THIS coming'....that's how this feels...there were a few of us who saw that this movement was close to going off the rails from the beginning. As this continues, and more shit like throwing condoms at catholic school girls, or hitting cops with bricks, get attributed to OWS, then the movement becomes more and more of a net loss for our side.
JHB
(37,132 posts)What are you doing besides wailing on an Internet message forum?
I understand all your points, I've made them myself in the past, but the truth is that people doing dopey things will always be with us, and when they're not the other side really does have ratfuckers to pick up the slack. You have to fight against that, but when stuff like that happens crying about doom does absolutely jack.
So do you do jack, Joe, or do you do something real?
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Occulus
(20,599 posts)He's been doing it from the beginning.
It's all been explained to him (and others playing the exact same game) numerous times. Joe's "ignorance" is wilful.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)So even if all the original encampments pack up and go home, people have been activated for a generation, and they can carry on for the next 50 years without being called OWS.
Anyways it's not dead yet.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)Since 1%, 99% is on the tip of everyones tongue, and income inequality is the topic enduring, whether folks get cold or not is rather moot.
I for one am glad we dont have a flock of OWS candidates. Teh teabaggers were ill prepared. ANd largely a laughing stock.
I also am glad they didnt make ridiculous, impossible to live up to claims of their vitality, entrenchment in society and longevity.
The fact that OWS has ALWAYS been met with bombs and blackwater zeal, gives those not violent back, cover from those that are.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)doc03
(35,148 posts)was the nail in the coffin. It may not be important to some on DU but it does matter to the vast majority of the middle class. If you don't have the support from the middle class you are dead. You all can blame some outside agitators if you want, but I haven't seen anyone from the OWS movement refuting it.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Campaigns are still being held, classes are still be held, changes are still being made.
In cities and towns across the country, they care much more about the positive and active impact Occupy is having on their lives than the public image. Occupy is not a monolith national organization. There is essentially no connection in local Occupy movements and what happened in Oakland. Participants and recipients of Occupy help and support understand this.
Setting that aside, I haven't seen the flag-burning get much play or notice outside the blogosphere.
randome
(34,845 posts)It doesn't seem to have gotten much attention anywhere else.
But that's the problem with no leadership -no one can step up and say this action, or any of the other negative actions, should not be associated with OWS.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)If the movement wanted to burn flags to make a statement, they would be doing it on Wall Street, not in some corner of Oakland.
What do you want movement people to tell you? That people are not angry? Sorry, they are angry.
a simple pattern
(608 posts)there must be hundreds of them out there
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)At least not on corporate-owned airwaves.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)And despite what you think, a national movement WAS based around horizontality. Actually, it's global not just national.
bread_and_roses
(6,335 posts)... never any lack of authoritarians around here to sing that song. As if "leaders" had a particular good track record for not eagerly joining the 1% as soon as the Oligarchs dangled some goodies they're way.
As for the poster seeming to imply that Koch bros funded OWS - eh? wot? because they were not singing hosannah's for Obama?
think
(11,641 posts)suffragette
(12,232 posts)The Daffodils
by William Wordsworth
I wandered lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o'er vales and hills,
When all at once I saw a crowd,
A host, of golden daffodils;
Beside the lake, beneath the trees,
Fluttering and dancing in the breeze.
Continuous as the stars that shine
And twinkle on the Milky Way,
They stretched in never-ending line
Along the margin of a bay:
Ten thousand saw I at a glance,
Tossing their heads in sprightly dance.
The waves beside them danced, but they
Out-did the sparkling leaves in glee:
A Poet could not but be gay,
In such a jocund company:
I gazedand gazedbut little thought
What wealth the show to me had brought:
For oft, when on my couch I lie
In vacant or in pensive mood,
They flash upon that inward eye
Which is the bliss of solitude;
And then my heart with pleasure fills,
And dances with the daffodils.
Vanje
(9,766 posts).........
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)but you keep saying that.
EarlG
(21,894 posts)A year ago, during the worst jobs crisis in decades, the only thing Washington and the media wanted to talk about was the deficit, and how the only solution was to get the poor and middle class to sacrifice more.
Now -- thanks to the success of OWS in the fall -- we are going to spend the rest of the year talking about issues like income inequality and tax fairness.
This year's election is going to be about REAL economic issues and how to improve life for the 99% in this country. Regardless of what happens with OWS going forward, we have them to thank for changing the conversation.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I wish OWS could reach its full potential and go far beyond 'changing the conversation'. But right now, that seems like a pipe dream.
think
(11,641 posts)suffragette
(12,232 posts)OWS changed the dynamic of the upcoming election from the repub talking points on debt and deficit to REAL issues affecting the majority of the public.
it is DEAD...cuz I say so and I am the Ruler of 5 other worlds including a water world and a pony world! Series!!!
Mosaic
(1,451 posts)Remember he said the movement was dead way last year on his stupid show.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It's all the rage, these false reports of death...http://lawfuel.com/releases/eddie-murphy-death---the-ongoing-online-dead-celebrity-hoax-saga-30903/
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)every movement should learn from their mistakes. this movement needs to refocus their mission and make sure they identify the provocateurs.
randome
(34,845 posts)But that requires someone to be in charge.
DURHAM D
(32,596 posts)Just this morning I listened to a panel discussing the Susan Komen mistakes of the past week and the resulting public relations mess. The panel members were referring to the fact they had to soften/change their position because they were "Occupied".
When something drops into conversation and common usage and everyone knows the reference - THEY WIN.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)OWS is just getting started
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)...promised their naysayers they would remain strong through whatever weather, blizzards or heat waves.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)70 is different
and if you have not noticed many OWS camps are still there, just not in the same numbers as they will be in a few months
and then when the collage kids get out of school for the summer......
OWS is just getting started
RZM
(8,556 posts)And that's not really because of anything OWS has or hasn't done. It's because of the presidential election.
The election is going to suck up a lot of the oxygen in the room. It will be hard for a non-partisan movement to gain more traction in a year when partisan politics will be at the forefront from now until November.
inna
(8,809 posts)Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)
Post removed
aquart
(69,014 posts)The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)How many of the people that have 'shit all over the place' or committed actual acts of vandalism have been arrested?
JHB
(37,132 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)bringing food, water and supplies.
I have not seen any evidence of pissing and crapping on the streets, as you so sweetly put it.
Your source of information is questionable, to say the least.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Your JAQing* really helps the anti-OWS cause. Bunches.
*Just Asking Questions - Like did Glenn Beck rape and kill a woman in 1990? Keep JAQing.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)the Occupy movement MIGHT eventually die. I don't think that it IS dead yet, but it possible. We'll just happen to see what happens when the weather (and the political conversation) warms up later this year. Remember that masses haven't turned their full attention to political thought yet.
What WON'T die however is the cry for economic justice and democracy. IF the Occupy movement dies, I fully expect it to be replaced by a MUCH more radical and stronger (and ACTUAL) anticapitalist movement. The ONLY way this replacement for Occupy is not inevitable is if the capitalists change their MO and that ain't happening. Capitalists (and for that matter capitalism) CAN'T change it's MO because inequalty is inherent in the capitalist system.
So to stay relavent, Occupy will have to become more overtly anticapitalist or it WILL die. To be replaced by a more truly anticapitalist grouping.
RetroLounge
(37,250 posts)and promptly ignored.
RL
aquart
(69,014 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)I find it amusing.
If OWS was really dead,
or insignificant,
or ineffective,
then WHY the daily obsession?
OWS has clearly had a deep and frightening impact on your personal psyche,
to the point where you and a handful of other Deniers would spend their Sunday morning
obsessing about something they insist is "dead" or "insignificant".
The paradox is that
if you really believed what you stated in your OP,
you wouldn't bother wasting your time composing the OP.
The harder and more frequently you DENY the relevance of OWS
the clearer it becomes that OWS is very important,
AND very frightening to you.
Keep posting this phony bluster,
but others who are actually THERE are laughing at your futile protestations.
The biggest mistake (intentional?) is your transparent and failed attempt to equate OWS with the Occupy Encampments.
That is but one aspect of a varied and widespread movement.
As you, and EVERYONE else can plainly see from the photos posted above,
OWS is NOT "dead".
At this point,
it would be much better if you would post a humble acknowledgment that your predictions were wrong,
and then let the matter drop. To continually post these denials only damages your credibility,
but does give most of us a good Sunday Morning laugh.
Rex
(65,616 posts)on what they would like see happen to OWS...thankfully we live in the real world and not their sad fantasies.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)tledford
(917 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)OWS is a bigger success then Kim K.
Sadly, people like you cannot deal with it.
Oh well...endure on.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Have fun with failure.
Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)I'll tell you why. Occupy is being very effective and the powers that be are afraid of it so they have become hard fisted. That's why. It's far from dead. Come back and post when you have some facts.
randome
(34,845 posts)Being arrested for trying to take over a public building for their own use?
That's what OWS is all about?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)no one would pay attention to them. They are effectively making their point and that's why all the intimidating tactics, including arrests, are being used against them.
randome
(34,845 posts)...most media groups and personalities AREN'T paying them any attention. Where is Stewart, Colbert, Maddow, Olberman? There is a reason they pay scant attention to OWS.
What point is OWS trying to make when they try to equate living in a public park with protesting economic inequality?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 5, 2012, 09:29 PM - Edit history (1)
Keith Olbermann always starts his show about Occupy when he's there. He has been sick for the last two weeks so his show has had fill in hosts that don't pay attention to it. But if you are talking about the MSM, and Rachel unfortunately has joined that team, they seem to ignore what are inconvenient truths to them, like for instance, the genocide going on in Syria now, or the civil war erupting in Iraq, which we left in a mess, or the melting of ice caps in Antarctica that are calving mega ice bergs due to global warming. Those events are getting first priority news coverage across the world but not here. So whether the media covers it or not really doesn't matter because they are nothing but propaganda for the industrialists and Wall Street any way.
Mosaic
(1,451 posts)The Internet is the media, as far I'm concerned.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)Sorry that was obnoxious of me, but that's really fucking funny.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)+100!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I can't think of any other explanation without getting my post deleted.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I would have thought you were one of the biggest OWS supporters on DU.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)I don't hate OWS, I hate what it's become and the fact that some here don't want to have a real conversation about its failure to get to the next level.
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)The only chance of OWS 'dying' is if the paradigm changes dramatically and the ultra-wealthy give up their control of the Government and the Media.
randome
(34,845 posts)First of all, the 1% are not afraid of OWS. They are all sitting on their beach front properties sipping margaritas.
Secondly, the 1% will NEVER give up their control. The ONLY means of righting the economic wrongs in this country are in the hands of our legislators since they make the laws that enable loopholes and fraud to thrive.
I know many with OWS say the legislators are only puppets but, what the hell, does anyone really think the 1% will stop playing with their puppets because OWS told them to 'behave better'?
Nothing will change until we force the legislators to change the system. They are the only strategic target.
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)Let's put it this way: Things will escalate until there is profound change.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,154 posts)And how do we do this? When all, or most, of the legislators are under the thumb of the corporate class? When DLC Democrats install Blue Dog and DINO candidates to run in elections? How has this strategy worked out so far?
Hey, I've got an idea. Why not start a grassroots movement where we start to change the conversation to FORCE those legislators to eventually address the inequalities and corruption? Be persistent enough that they even start using our language? And have it be leaderless so it can't be brought down by personal attacks or scandal?
We could call it the Repossession Movement or something like that.
Or do you have any better ideas?
randome
(34,845 posts)I don't see that happening.
The recent Internet blackout had a profound, direct effect. The outrage over the Komen foundation had a profound, direct effect.
Maybe OWS needs to go much MORE underground and use the Internet more effectively.
I don't have all the answers. All I know is that squabbling over 'camping rights' and side issues like that are not going to change anything other than 'the conversation' -all well and good but not nearly enough to trigger systemic change.
I've said this many times before and I'll say it again: it isn't stealing when the legislators say, 'Here. Take what you want.'
They are still the key to changing the system, like it or not.
RKP5637
(67,032 posts)I thought was interesting ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002268088
"Scandinavian workers realized that, electoral democracy was stacked against them, so nonviolent direct action was needed to exert the power for change."
"While many of us are working to ensure that the Occupy movement will have a lasting impact, its worthwhile to consider other countries where masses of people succeeded in nonviolently bringing about a high degree of democracy and economic justice. Sweden and Norway, for example, both experienced a major power shift in the 1930s after prolonged nonviolent struggle. They fired the top 1 percent of people who set the direction for society and created the basis for something different."
randome
(34,845 posts)Thanks for posting.
RKP5637
(67,032 posts)by MSM ... that IMO is a real problem. Too many people come home and just flip the Tee Vee onto whatever news source and often it's going to be corporate media. ... and they will often show OWS in the worst way possible. MSM certainly doesn't want OWS to be successful.
We did have a chance with MSNBC at one time, but with Comcast running the show now, I think it's going to be biased against OWS ... as much as they can without losing the liberal/progressive viewers ... and some have already left.
And some democrats I know think OWS is all about riots. ... but that's what they get from the Tee Vee.
randome
(34,845 posts)That's why OWS needs leaders. Without them, it will forever be marginalized by MSM. Some say they don't want or need MSM coverage but then turn around and decry the coverage.
RKP5637
(67,032 posts)We live in a hierarchical society. Although I would like to see it different, the majority in this country are used to that, leadership ... without that, they see it as unfocused, no matter how focused in reality OWS might be. It's all about perception management. MSM will exploit that weakness.
I haven't read in detail other than the article I sent on how the Swedes and Norwegians managed the leadership ... but my gut feeling is they had focused leadership ... otherwise IMO organizations/movements fracture in different directions. Certainly MLK used focused leadership, for example.
Perhaps a term is "focused collective leadership." Now, that may well be going on, but that needs to somehow get out on MSM. Maybe in the spring it will.
tritsofme
(17,325 posts)But for 99% of us, it has been over for months.
think
(11,641 posts)tritsofme
(17,325 posts)No one is really paying attention. I would venture to guess to that most people would be quite surprised to learn that the whole occupy thing is still "ongoing"
think
(11,641 posts)But everyone following OWS knows that winter has slowed things down and spring is near...
Mosaic
(1,451 posts)I watch corporate media every day, and every day on some show there is reference to the Occupy Movement. Your reality doesn't match the country's, even with a biased media.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)tritsofme
(17,325 posts)The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)is the only explanation for making such a ridiculous statement.
The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)wish.
think
(11,641 posts)pa28
(6,145 posts)Mostly just to piss you off.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: 'I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action'; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a 'more convenient season.' Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
- Martin Luther King, Jr, "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"
think
(11,641 posts)socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)Some people will mouth the phrases, but when push comes to shove, they're MORE invested in the current system (and "order" than in justice and democracy.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)We dont like it because rather than create justice and democracy, it seems worse than what we have now.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)We haven't seen anything close to real Marxism since the early 20s in Russia.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)In fact I cannot recommend it at all. Too bad. Great reply.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)This is truth.
randome
(34,845 posts)...to co-opt the civil rights movement for OWS.
They are 2 totally separate things and I think it does a disservice to the civil rights movement to say OWS is comparable.
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)John Kenneth Galbraith has estimated that $20 billion a year would effect a guaranteed income, which he describes as "not much more than we will spend the next fiscal year to rescue freedom and democracy and religious liberty as these are defined by 'experts' in Vietnam."
The contemporary tendency in our society is to base our distribution on scarcity, which has vanished, and to compress our abundance into the overfed mouths of the middle and upper classes until they gag with superfluity. If democracy is to have breadth of meaning, it is necessary to adjust this inequity. It is not only moral, but it is also intelligent. We are wasting and degrading human life by clinging to archaic thinking.
The curse of poverty has no justification in our age. It is socially as cruel and blind as the practice of cannibalism at the dawn of civilization, when men ate each other because they had not yet learned to take food from the soil or to consume the abundant animal life around them. The time has come for us to civilize ourselves by the total, direct and immediate abolition of poverty. --The Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)RKP5637
(67,032 posts)I read "Letters" in the early '70s, had forgotten about them. This is so relevaant and powerful. Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor, I seem th have dropped it.
Mr_Jefferson_24
(8,559 posts)barbtries
(28,702 posts)about the many who claim to love what OWS stands for, but, gee, it's failed.
what a perfect quote.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)Many of the camps have now rented larger space to hold meetings and use as a base. It is quieter now, but growing. And in the spring, all hell breaketh loose, I suspect.
I believe the ouster has helped them. Kept them safer and warm. Meanwhile, they have been networking and planning which is easier inside.
I wouldn't write that obit yet.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)to tell them all how it's done!
If they had only had you for a leader OWS could have been something... It could have been a contender.
blogslut
(37,955 posts)OWS is quite alive and isn't going away.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Let's see how dead OWS is come Summertime...
barbtries
(28,702 posts)if it had, it would be dead.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)barbtries
(28,702 posts)is apparently alive and well.
varelse
(4,062 posts)marmar
(76,985 posts)The anti-OWS barrage is getting lamer and lamer.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)unionworks
(3,574 posts)...that the Smithsonian has requested the "Tent of Dreams" and other objects from Occupy D.C.. Enjoy your time on the wrong side of history, Joe, and that goes for the rest of the Occupy detractors.
donheld
(21,311 posts)Mr_Jefferson_24
(8,559 posts)... he wants to know if you're available to assist him in guiding Komen in for a nice crash and burn landing -- I told him you were busy counseling the OWS movement right now, but you'll get back to him when you can.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)truth2power
(8,219 posts)<sigh>
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)We often interpret a thing as to better fit our own opinions of that thing.
I'm sure Mr. Twain has no comment about the early exaggeration of a death.
"that there (sic) message was convoluted..."
I suppose those things which are obvious, easy and stark to open eyes may indeed seem convoluted to a dogmatic and intractable opinion.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)I did get a laugh at how you cleverly added the "It's a shame". Personally I'm glad to see that there exists fear of the OWS movement, and it's consequences to the PTB. As long as I keep seeing posts such as this, I will know that OWS is effective.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)Face it, because of their tactics, the average independent voter has not embraced occupy. And that is a shame.