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Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:37 PM

Transgender woman banned from Idaho grocery store

LEWISTON, Idaho (AP) — A transgender woman was banned from a western Idaho grocery store after customers complained she used the women's restroom, police in Lewiston said.

Alberto Robledo, 25, of Lewiston, identifies herself as female and goes by Ally. She was leaving a Rosauers store in Lewiston late on April 8 when police officers gave her paperwork informing her that she had a "no trespassing" order against her for using the women's restroom.

"They pretty much just came up and said, 'OK, you're not allowed at our store anymore,'" Robledo told the Lewiston Tribune.

A manager at Rosauers declined requests to comment made by a local newspaper and television station.

Police Capt. Roger Lanier said some customers complained about a man using the women's restroom.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/transgender-woman-banned-idaho-grocery-store

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Reply Transgender woman banned from Idaho grocery store (Original post)
The Straight Story Apr 2013 OP
One_Life_To_Give Apr 2013 #1
Initech Apr 2013 #3
pnwmom Apr 2013 #2
One_Life_To_Give Apr 2013 #4
pnwmom Apr 2013 #6
One_Life_To_Give Apr 2013 #7
Hekate Apr 2013 #11
One_Life_To_Give Apr 2013 #26
pnwmom Apr 2013 #63
pnwmom Apr 2013 #18
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #16
pnwmom Apr 2013 #19
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #21
pnwmom Apr 2013 #24
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #27
pnwmom Apr 2013 #40
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #42
pnwmom Apr 2013 #43
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #44
pnwmom Apr 2013 #49
alphafemale Apr 2013 #48
pnwmom Apr 2013 #50
Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #56
pnwmom Apr 2013 #62
Chan790 Apr 2013 #46
pnwmom Apr 2013 #51
CreekDog Jun 2013 #79
Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #55
Hekate Apr 2013 #13
CreekDog Apr 2013 #61
Zorra Apr 2013 #5
Post removed Apr 2013 #8
Hekate Apr 2013 #9
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #17
pnwmom Apr 2013 #20
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #23
pnwmom Apr 2013 #25
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #28
Behind the Aegis Apr 2013 #33
pnwmom Apr 2013 #35
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #41
enlightenment Apr 2013 #53
pnwmom Apr 2013 #64
enlightenment Apr 2013 #69
pnwmom Apr 2013 #70
enlightenment Apr 2013 #71
Starry Messenger Apr 2013 #77
One_Life_To_Give Apr 2013 #31
Hekate Apr 2013 #32
pnwmom Apr 2013 #36
Hekate Apr 2013 #37
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #38
Hekate Apr 2013 #39
Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #57
Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #10
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #14
In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #29
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #30
Hekate Apr 2013 #34
Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #45
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #52
Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #72
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #75
Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #76
pnwmom Apr 2013 #22
AnnieBW Apr 2013 #12
MillennialDem Apr 2013 #15
octothorpe Apr 2013 #58
Starry Messenger Apr 2013 #47
undergroundpanther Apr 2013 #66
Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #54
octothorpe Apr 2013 #59
Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #60
pnwmom Apr 2013 #65
Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #67
pnwmom Apr 2013 #68
Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #74
gollygee Apr 2013 #73
FreeState Apr 2013 #78

Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:53 PM

1. Disgusting, have people lost all empathy

Customers complained because they didn't have the courage to expose their own bigotry.

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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 02:32 PM

3. Yup it is extremely disgusting.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 02:25 PM

2. So what do we do about people like Paula Witherspoon,

a trans with male genitals and driver's license, who wants to use female restrooms?

He's got a record of sexually assaulting girls. Still okay with him being in the ladies'?

(By the way, this writer isn't the only lesbian who strongly objects to the idea that wearing feminine clothing makes a man, a woman; or that wearing masculine clothing makes a woman, a man.)

Also, how do we tell sincere transgender women apart from men who peeping Toms or other men who don't belong in the ladies' room?

http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/05/04/child-sex-predator-paul-ray-witherspoon-ticketed-for-using-female-restroom-uses-gender-identity-defense/

From NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth: “A transgender woman who was ticketed for using the women’s restroom at a Dallas hospital says her status as a convicted sex offender should not play a role in the citation.”

Last Wednesday, 56 year old Paul Ray Witherspoon frightened a female hospital patient while using the women and girl’s restroom at Dallas Parkland Hospital while wearing a bulky ankle tracking device used for high risk parolees. The woman notified the police, who arrived at the scene and questioned the parolee, who offered that he is a serial child sexual predator now on monitored GPS tracking for his parole.

SNIP

According to the Texas Public Sex Offender Registry, Witherspoon was convicted in 1990 for sexual assault of a child and indecency with a child involving sexual contact. Both victims were teenage girls.

SNIP

As a butch lesbian, I find it shocking and inappropriate that an LGBT advocacy group like Lambda Legal suggests that legally male serially convicted child sexual predators should be given free reign to enter private, protected spaces for women and girls on the basis of those male’s subjective claims of feeling an internal “gender identity”. Further, the assertion by Lambda Legal that males who do not adhere to cultural standards of masculinity would be considered “disruptive” in ANY male setting whatsoever is a claim that every gay and lesbian person should find deeply offensive.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8238380/man-dressed-as-mannequin-found-in-mall-toilet


“The 22-year-old from Edgbaston was seen sneaking into the women’s toilets “dressed like a mannequin with a mask and a wig” earlier this month. When security guards nabbed him after he emerged from the locked cubicle, Hardman admitted to performing a sexual act and said: “I’ve been a bit weird.” He also told police he found the sound of women on the toilet sexually exciting and said: “It’s good you’ve caught me — maybe now I’ll stop.” Police found three images of women’s feet taken beneath cubicle doors on his mobile phone, and an audio recording of a flushing toilet, the court was told. Hardman told Birmingham Magistrates’ Court he felt “sexual gratification out of everything that goes on in women’s toilets”. When asked to explain his outfit, he said he wore the clothes to a fancy dress party and then tried it out at the shopping mall.”

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/92510/archives/2010/10/12/cross-dressing-peeper-infiltrates-cal-womens-locker-room

“A man dressed as a woman has been spotted peeping at females and photographing them in a UC Berkeley locker room.

"According to an email just received from the UC Police Department:

"On Monday, October 4, 2010 at 9:20 p.m. and again on Wednesday, October 6, 2010 at 4:30 p.m. a male disguised as a female was discovered in the Recreational Sports Facility women’s locker room. On both occasions the suspect fled the scene when confronted by staff members. In one of the instances the suspect was seen using a cell phone to photograph women inside the locker room. After each occurrence UCPD searched the area but was unable to locate the suspect. No one was physically contacted during these encounters."

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 03:27 PM

4. Paula has had due process

The court can decide if Paula should be restricted in use of restroom facilities.

We have had a problem with men assaulting women in the Ladies room as long as I can remember. Don't think the solution is adding another hoop for the testosterone poisoned to jump thru.

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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #4)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 05:07 PM

6. Police say that women should be "careful" when they enter public restrooms.

So what should they do when they see a person who looks like a man dressed as a woman?

Assume the person is a harmless transwoman?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #6)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:29 PM

7. Common sense

Judge by what they do, not by what they are.

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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:47 PM

11. Right. And just how are we supposed to do that in a short visit?

By the way, mothers take their children in there with them because it is considered safer than sending little boys into the mens' room unescorted. This is not as easy as it looks.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:42 PM

26. What? Tell an ordinary Trans person from a predator?

Ones probably trying to get in and out as fast as possible. While the other is trying to linger. One try's to look at you thru the corner of their eye while the other keeps their head down. One hopefully managed to put together a decently coordinating age appropriate outfit and another doesn't. One is hopefully following ladies room etiquette while the other thinks there is no difference.

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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:58 PM

63. So, if a masculine looking woman is standing at the mirror, playing with her makeup,

is that lingering? Lots of women linger in restrooms.



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Response to One_Life_To_Give (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:24 PM

18. I'm no mind reader. I can't tell what a person is going to do until he does it.

And it isn't all that unusual for men to assault women in restrooms, and some of them are finding that the access is easier now, as long as they're willing to dress up and pretend to be a transwoman.

So how does a woman tell? And what about young girls who go into public restrooms by themselves? Should we instruct them that if they see a person who looks like a man, they shouldn't worry unless he actually does something wrong?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #6)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:17 PM

16. Yes, you are supposed to do that. If they are a person who looks like a man (whether said person is

 

a man crossdressed or a trans woman or just a manly looking cis woman) you observe them and see what they do. If they go into a stall and take a piss, you leave it be. If they loiter or otherwise behave oddly, GTFO and call the cops.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:26 PM

19. What if you don't observe them doing something until they've already done it?

Suppose you're in a stall and you realize that the "woman" is peering over the top? That "woman" has already invaded your privacy. And worse things can happen, too, with no warning.

I'm curious whether all the people who think this is simple are men. That would explain things.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #19)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:32 PM

21. I'm a trans woman. And um, you coul have a cis woman peer into your stall, or while you're in the

 

stall a man comes into the bathroom and peers into your stall.

I don't know what crime that would fall under (disorderly conduct? sexual assault?) but at that point you just have to try to get out and get help / call the cops. It's unfortunate but you can't always prevent being a victim*.

I think you're actually also MORE likely to get sexually harassed by another cis woman or by a man who decides to walk in. Most trans women are not timid per se - many are quite assertive at times but especially if they're pre op or non op (meaning they have not had genital surgery) they tend to be pretty guarded. Ie the last thing they want is to be the local news story of "man caught in woman's bathroom" so they tend to mind their own business!

*moreover, we trans women need a place to take a piss too, and while trans women might increase your chance of getting assaulted in the bathroom by 0.001%, a trans woman going into the men's bathroom is facing an extremely high chance of being assaulted!

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #21)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:38 PM

24. I'm NOT saying a trans woman would be likely to assault anyone.

I'm saying that MEN dressed in woman's clothing have entered woman's restrooms in order to assault them. Until recently, if a woman saw a man in the restroom she would have been advised to leave -- no matter what clothing he was wearing.

What are we supposed to tell our young girls? If they see a person who looks like man in the ladies' room, how will they know whether the person is a man or a masculine-appearing transwoman?

I don't feel any safer having men in the ladies' room than you do going into the men's room. So what is the answer to this? Maybe every building should have a gender neutral room?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #24)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:44 PM

27. Like I said, most who go into a women's bathroom will have a doctor's note. Most will also use the

 

men's room as long as they can and dress as a man as long as they can. I did this and got lots of weird stares, people calling me miss or maam all the time, etc even while dressed as a guy. At that point I was better off dressing as a woman and using the woman's room.

As for what to tell your sons and daughters, there a few ways you could approach it. I remember when I was very young I must have seen a trans woman or crossdresser when I was with my mom somewhere and I asked about if it was a man or a woman, and she said something to the effect of "they're not really sure what they are". I think you could probably refine it and say "he thinks he's a she" or "no, it's really a lady" (even if they don't believe you).

But yeah gender neutral bathrooms would be nice in every building. Or even just multiple "one holers" with locks on the doors instead of bathrooms with multiple stalls.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:16 AM

40. But what if the man is actually a man -- not a transwoman?

How do we protect our girls from male predators in ladies' rooms?

We can't exactly ask to see a doctor's note.

Again, you don't feel safe in men's rooms alongside men -- and many women don't feel safe in ladies' rooms alongside men.

So how do we know whether the person is a transwoman or not?

I don't think there's a solution that will make everyone safer.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #40)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:24 AM

42. If you see what you think is a male bodied person dressed as a woman in the woman's bathroom

 

you leave and get management, security, or the cops. And if that person is trans and has a note, hopefully the management or security or the cops treats that person with dignity and speaks to them in private about it. Early in my transition, I would have been ok with this if the cop or whoever was polite and professional about it. I'd just be scared shitless at the initial encounter.

If it's a regular ol' dude in women's clothes, hopefully they arrest or cite him.

Even if trans women did not exist, you could still run into this problem (men dressing up as woman to get access to the women's rest room). I don't really know what else to say.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #42)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:26 AM

43. This is exactly the problem:

"Even if trans women did not exist, you could still run into this problem (men dressing up as woman to get access to the women's rest room)."

That has always been the problem -- not transwomen, but predatory men.

Thanks for understanding why this is a difficult issue for women and girls. I do understand why you don't want to go into mens' rooms -- neither do I!

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #43)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:32 AM

44. LOL hon, I'm long over that phase. And somehow I survived without a woman harassing or

 

calling the cops on me or any such nonsense.

I transitioned young and guess I'm lucky. Or don't hate me because I'm beautiful I've never once been mistaken for a man since I had reconstructive surgery on my face 8 years ago.

These days if I went into the men's bathroom, they wouldn't think I was a trans women, they'd just think wtf why did she go into the men's room?

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #44)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 01:43 AM

49. You're not a person anyone should worry about, of course.

It's people like this Paula Witherspoon -- and you might not be thrilled with her in the restroom either -- especially if you noticed the ankle bracelet (she wears it because she violated probation.)

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #40)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 01:23 AM

48. And they are going to shave the girl's hair off. Drug her and dress her like a boy.

and carry her away.

Because beardy men in dresses with drooling, drugged children would be so inconspicuous.

This is choking Doberman urban legend horseshit and has NEVER happened.

The only reason for this story to exist is to create bogeys out of transgendered people.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #48)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:11 AM

50. What the heck are you talking about? n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #40)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:35 AM

56. I would prefer one unisex single bathroom at larger locations.

This is a problem, and it's not that I think most actual transitioning women would be a problem. It's not that sexual deviancy couldn't occur in that population, but is such a very small population that it's not much of a threat. Once or twice I think I've seen transitioning people in the lady's, but it never bothered me because they were clearly just intent on relief like everyone else.

But if someone is acting oddly in the restroom and I thought he/she were really a man, then I could not live with myself if I did not walk out and say something about it. I'd hate it if an innocent person were hassled, but I'd hate it even worse if some woman got assaulted because I didn't say anything.

Two of my friends have been raped in a restroom. It happens. It really happens. Restrooms can be very dangerous places for a woman.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #56)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:50 PM

62. And the further problem is

that sometimes you don't get any advance notice by someone acting oddly. A girl goes into a restroom and a man attacks her before she even sees he's there.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #24)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 01:04 AM

46. Well, one surefire way...

 

would be that if you're that concerned about it, you might consider holding it until you get home. That's what many people do when they're uncomfortable with the notion of using a particular restroom or using the same restroom as the clientele therein.

Also, never go to Scandinavia. Virtually all the restrooms are unisex and nobody thinks anything of it, nor is there this constant fear of being assaulted by other people who just want to piss in peace.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #46)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 02:15 AM

51. People with female genitals have to go to the bathroom more often

than people with male genitals or risk bladder infections. This is because of the short urethra.

What you are suggesting is that people with female genitals should have their participation in public limited in order to accommodate others. Apparently that seems fair to you.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #51)

Thu Jun 6, 2013, 03:53 PM

79. You're saying men store urine in their urethras?

Nobody expects you to be smart but there is some fleeting hope that one is not freakin stupid.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #16)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:28 AM

55. Under normal circs, a transgender woman wouldn't cause any problem

Because the person looks like a woman and anyway they use stalls. How is anyone going to know even if gender-change surgery isn't complete?

So I am GUESSING that this person somehow did behave oddly. Or maybe just looks like a man, but according to the person's own comment, it hadn't been a problem before.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:52 PM

13. Women take their little boys and girls into the womens' restroom with them...

... because it is safer than either leaving them outside or letting little boys go into the mens' room unescorted. A convicted sexual predator has no business being there, I don't care about his widdle feelings of confusion in any regard.

Ew. Ew. Ew.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 01:19 PM

61. sounds like you want to treat all transgendered as if they were this person

how completely intolerant of you.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 04:32 PM

5. Please sign this petition, help fight the transphobic theocratic fascists:

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)


Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:43 PM

9. If she dresses as a woman, how would they know she was not?

Women's restrooms consist of stalls with doors. We don't stand up in rows proudly and rather publicly doing whatever it is you do with a whole row of urinals. We close the little door and sit down. You can tell by the position of our feet. We like the feeling of privacy.

If Ally is identifying as female and still stands to pee, I can readily see how that would be disconcerting to the occupants of the other stalls. It sounds different, and her feet and legs would be in the wrong position. It wouldn't take either a genius or a nosy gossip to realize that physically speaking the occupant was a man.

And that would be upsetting and feel like an invasion of privacy.

That said, I'm sorry for her troubles, and hope she sorts everything out.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:19 PM

17. Most trans women do not stand to pee, at least not in public. Some do at home or if they're in the

 

woods, but 99% sit to pee if a public bathroom.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:32 PM

20. Oh, they keep statistics on that? Yeah, right. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #20)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:35 PM

23. I'm a trans woman myself and we've had polls on such things on the forums for trans people I go on.

 

Never met a single one who admits to standing while in public even though I transitioned 10 years ago and have talked to many in that time.

In fact, many (if not most) say they sat to pee even before they ever transitioned.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:41 PM

25. I would have thought this transwoman would have used a stall,

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:46 PM

28. I'm not sure which picture you are referring to? The first one? I think it's probably a joke picture

 

Also the rest of that site is quite hate mongering towards trans people.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:57 PM

33. A side note...

...Welcome, first of all. Also, if you are interested, there is a LGBT sub-group on DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1137 There are also lots of other great groups (click on the forums and groups tab at the top of the page) you can check out...

Welcome!

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:58 PM

35. There seems to be a stark difference in the way many lesbians and other feminists

view this.

They strongly feel that women are not defined by how they dress use makeup. So a woman who presents as "butch" is just as female as anyone else. And a man who dresses as a woman but isn't transitioning (and has no intention to do so) isn't a woman just because of the clothes or hair.

Can you see how it would be difficult for many women to accept that a transwoman who isn't actually physically transitioning belongs in women-only places, like bathrooms and showers?

To clarify, I am not speaking about women like you who are in some stage of transitioning.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:17 AM

41. There are butch trans women too. Many activist lesbians even have a problem with trans women who

 

have transitioned. As a lesbian myself (or is it trans bian? :p) I am more than familiar with that whole issue.

FWIW, I do actually agree with you in that a male bodied person... whether they are actually a trans woman who hasn't done anything or hasn't done much or a crossdresser or man who gets off on going into the woman's bathroom while dressed as a female isn't the best situation. We don't know if that's what happened with the trans woman in this case. She could be a the "in between" stage where she doesn't pass well as either a man or a woman - and unfortunately some trans women are NEVER able to pass as women. I feel sorry for them.

At least I saw no such reference in the article. Maybe I missed it?

Again as I said, most actually are afraid as can be to go into the woman's bathroom anyway. Even if the first time they go in they've been on hormones for 2 years and have hair halfway down their backs. <--- I'm speaking from experience on this one if you don't get the hint.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:15 AM

53. You really need to make up your mind

where you want to go with this.

First it's "fear" - undefined and unsupported by anything but a vague "but, but, what if . . .??"
Then it's relying on the position of a small segment of the lesbian and feminist community who cannot fathom the reality of being transgender and so reject it with pseudo-psychological babble to mask their prejudice. Fortunately, they are a minority.

How the hell do you know a tranwoman isn't "actually transitioning"? Do you want the right to stick your hand between their legs and cop a feel? Who the hell are you to make that determination, in any case?

You don't know. You assume - and your assumption is based on an irrational fear that someone wants to assault you - or maybe just sneak a peak of you sitting on the toilet.

I feel sorry for you, I really do. It must suck to live in a perpetual state of anxiety, afraid of everything that is even a little bit outside your personal realm of experience.

But I do not believe that your fear gives you a right to be so blatantly trans-phobic on DU. I really don't. You bang on about this almost every time a transgender topic comes up on this board. It's obvious and disgusting. Give it a rest. We get it, even if you won't admit it.

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #53)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:09 PM

64. I don't know that any particular transwoman isn't transitioning. That is the point.

If a masculine appearing person is in the ladies' room, it's impossible to tell if the person is a transwoman or a predator dressed in woman's clothing -- who doesn't belong in there.

If a transwoman has transitioned, then she's as vulnerable to male predators as any woman.

If a transwoman still has a male body, then she isn't.

The great majority (not a small segment) of the lesbian and feminist community reject the idea that their sexuality is determined by the clothing they wear or the makeup they do or do not wear.

Just as they don't think that wearing pants turns them into guys who should use the men's room, they don't think putting on a dress makes a person with a male body someone who should use the ladies' room. They're not rejecting the idea of people who are sincerely transsexual and are in the process of transitioning. But they're saying that being a female isn't something as easy as putting on a dress.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #64)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:51 PM

69. Deflecting doesn't change what you're doing.

This isn't about sexuality. It is about gender - and the fact that you keep trying to make it an issue of sexuality only proves how little you understand.

Your statement that a transwoman who has not undergone surgical reassignment is not vulnerable is outrageous, by the way. Utterly outrageous.

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #69)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:31 PM

70. You are deliberately misstating what I said.

I said "in the process of transitioning." That does not equal: "has not undergone surgical reassignment."

A person who has a female driver's license and lives her life as a woman is in the process of transitioning. So is a person who takes female hormones or has had breast surgery. Surgical reassignment isn't a necessary part of transitioning.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #70)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:20 PM

71. Where did you say that?

You've said so much on this issue, I've lost track.

You are absolutely correct on this:
A person who has a female driver's license and lives her life as a woman is in the process of transitioning. So is a person who takes female hormones or has had breast surgery. Surgical reassignment isn't a necessary part of transitioning.


Good for you! That's progress.


But I replied to this:

If a transwoman has transitioned, then she's as vulnerable to male predators as any woman.

If a transwoman still has a male body, then she isn't.


I'm not misstating anything.
You don't discuss "in the process" in your statement. You divide transwomen into two groups.

One of them "has transitioned" and is therefore vulnerable to attack if she uses the men's toilet.
The other "still has a male body" and "isn't" - that is, isn't vulnerable to attack if she uses the men's toilet. Now why would that be? Because she isn't really a woman? What makes her not really a women? Could it be her genitalia?


I think it's great that you have reached a point where you can at least type an admission that transwomen are not defined by their genitalia . . . that's a step up from the previous post I'm discussing here, certainly. But please don't pretend you didn't say what you said - or mean what you meant. You weren't writing in Sanskrit or using particularly complex sentences.

If you're learning something in this thread, that's great, but to suggest that you knew it from the start and I am deliberately misstating your view is pretty absurd.

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #71)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 12:19 AM

77. +1000

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:52 PM

31. Many/most would rather Die than stand to pee

Photo's made for a laugh. Common signs in Trans children MtF is for a complete refusal to Stand while relieving themselves.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:55 PM

32. That's what I mean. What went wrong?

Aside from that, pwnmom's post is very thought-provoking. It's just not that easy for us women. We count on a measure of privacy and safety when we take half our clothes off, we take our children in with us, and if our radar is set off what are we supposed to do? There is a very long history of perverts hanging out in or spying on women's restrooms.

Personally I do like unisex bathrooms in places that only provide one or two rooms for the purpose. They are completely private, the door locks, and who the hell cares what gender uses it as long as they leave it clean? Most are big enough to bring in a wheelchair or a stroller and a kid. But when you are in a venue that has to deal with enormous crowds, that is not an option.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #32)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:01 AM

36. I wish they would change building codes to require at least some unisex, single restrooms

everywhere. But that doesn't solve the immediate problem. I'm not sure there is an answer.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #36)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:05 AM

37. I would love that. My observation is that they are usually handicap-accessible...

... which means they are stroller-accessible too. I know I keep harping on strollers, but even though I am now a grandma the memories of propping the tiny stall door open with the stroller and kid while I did the necessary are pretty vivid.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #32)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:09 AM

38. I didn't see the article stating that the trans woman was standing to pee (or what were you referrin

 

g to)?

As for a woman calling the cops or telling the store if they see a "manly looking woman", I am MOSTLY ok with that, but if the store or cops are kicking her out and she has a doctor's note they are the ones I have the problem with. Not that woman who called it in.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #38)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:11 AM

39. Right. More complicated than it seems.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #17)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:38 AM

57. Esp. in a woman's bathroom

You're either going to be in a stall, in which case standing to pee wouldn't be obvious, or you'd be pissing in a sink, in which case complaints are understandable.

Urinals are not standard equipment in women's restrooms.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:44 PM

10. It's an impossible dilemna

 

So it's a man wearing woman's clothes and in some people's minds he is then automatically entitled to use the women's rest rooms. Let's consider this...

What clothing level qualifies? Does it have to be a dress, or is it okay if the the man is wearing women's jeans or perhaps a blouse? What about just a hot pink "girl power" T-shirt? Or perhaps he's a man who self-identifies as a woman, but is currently choosing to wear mens clothing to avoid persecution... Shouldn't he be allowed to at least utilize the facilities as he sees fit without causing a scene?

And if so, how is a random woman to know this? Should a woman assume that any man she encounters in the woman's facilities is a harmless alternative gendered something or other?

I don't know the answers, but I do know that it's seems a bit silly to be critical of anyone regardless of how they respond.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:54 PM

14. No, this person is not a man wearing woman's clothes. This person is a trans WOMAN. And usually

 

a doctor's note indicating the person is on hormones or other medical treatment for gender dysphoria.

Not just a man slapping on women's clothes and strolling into the women's room.

I know because I am one myself, had hormone treatments, surgery done on my face (no I don't have an "operated on" excessive plastic surgery look). I've long since transitioned and use the women's bathroom every day with no issue. I think this person is probably still in the "beginning stages".

Oh and FWIW, I never wear dresses and almost never wear skirts. Usually tshirt and jeans type girl.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:49 PM

29. Thank you for being so open and sharing information with us.

[img][/img]

I'm glad you joined DU.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #29)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:51 PM

30. <3

 

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:57 PM

34. Welcome to DU, MillennialDem.

Thanks for adding your voice, and am glad it is working well for you.
Talk to you more later.

Hekate

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #14)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:58 AM

45. Allow me to be clear...

 

I have nothing but respect and compassion for you or for anyone else in this position. Since I am undoubtedly ignorant on this topic I'm sure you can fill me in (or provide some kind of link) on what exactly differentiates a traditional male from a transgendered-woman other than some genetic or mental inclinations. Again, I mean that respectfully, and I am doing my best to waltz around a delicate subject while lacking the correct innoffensive language to do so safely -- so apologies in advance.

It seems to me, in my ignorant state, that a pre-op transgendered male is objectively a male. A male who -- for any number of possible reasons -- identifies as a female. It is no-doubt polite, respectful, and politically correct to treat such a person as a female despite any visual evidence to the contrary, but this falls into the realm of courtesy, and in any case it does not address any of the points I raised.

How, exactly, is a random woman supposed to react when their eyes and mind inform them that the person in the restroom is a male wearing woman's attire -- or worse, just a male perhaps wearing traditional male attire. In this case the women did notice, so clearly any chemical or surgical changes were in their early stages. But let us consider that -- if YOU, as a transgendered woman -- walked into the restroom to find some guy in there, perhaps wearing stereotypical male attire (say a suit and tie, but take your pick), would you automatically assume that he was simply early stage transgender or would you be potentially concerned or amused at his mistake?

Given your history you would not doubt be more tolerant than most, but I suspect even so it would give you pause. You are used to seeing WOMEN in your bathroom, that's normal for you and every other woman in America, and I do not doubt for a moment that you would notice and be at least somewhat surprised or even alarmed to discover someone invading your space. You might play it off, with your knowlege and wisdom you might even make a new friend, but you would notice.

So it comes down to this:

Either we need to remove gender assignments from ALL bathrooms (I ran into this in the army and there were zero issues) or, until they can successfully pass for women, transgendered women should most likely use the male bathroom and avoid causing anyone, including themselves, discomfort or alarm. One day we will move beyond all of this nonsense, but until then here we are.

And hopefully nothing I said was too offensive. As I said, I respect your choice and support you 100%.

Chris

P.S. You no doubt live nowhere near me. It's a shame, I would love nothing more than to sit and enjoy a nice long chat over coffee. I bet I would learn some amazing things.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #45)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 08:33 AM

52. Response.

 

First of all, thanks for the kind words and willingness to listen.

Regarding pre-op vs post-op. First of all, no, I think you have to be careful here. It is offensive to classify a trans woman as male simply because she has a penis - biologically this may be debatable but for social purposes it is not. Many trans women elect NOT to have genital surgery (or may have a more limited procedure, such as removal of the testicles only). This may be because of health or financial reasons, or said trans woman may not want someone not just monkeying with part of her reproductive system, but also part of her urinary system. Complications are fairly uncommon for those who have said surgery, but still subjecting someone to unnecessary surgery is quite frankly a bit scary for me. What a trans woman has in her pants is only the concern of her, her girlfriend or boyfriend, and her doctor.

Last thing on the genitals topic, I hope you are not having the misconception that a trans woman gets a "sex change" where the day before she looked like a dude and then she wakes up from the operating table looking like a chick. That surgery ONLY changes the person's genitals, and the woman looks identical the day before surgery and the day after surgery, at least with clothes on.

Ok regarding seeing a man or a non-passing trans woman in the bathroom: as I said if there is a woman in the bathroom and she sees what she thinks is a male bodied person in the bathroom and feels unsafe, she should get out and inform management or the cops and let them sort it out. Most trans women again will have a doctor's note explaining their situation.

As for me if I saw a dude in a suit and tie or dressed like a construction worker or whatever in the women's bathroom, I would not think it was a trans woman who hasn't done any hormonal or surgical work yet. I would be slightly weirded out, but I would really only feel unsafe if he was loitering around. If I saw a man go into the stall and take a piss, I'd probably think he's drunk or on drugs (legal or not), from a foreign country, or has some psychological issues but is probably harmless to himself and others.

As for trans women waiting until they can pass as women to use the women's bathroom this is also not so clear cut. Many trans women can't pass as men or women, at least for awhile. They can have just as much discomfort in the men's bathroom as the women's. Even though they may be wearing a guy's tshirt and jeans, can you imagine what such a person looks like with long hair, breasts and hips from hormones, and other feminized features? Some trans women go to extraordinary lengths to hide such changes like very baggy clothes or even binding their breasts like trans MEN do until they are absolutely certain the men's bathroom is a no go.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #52)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:58 PM

72. Excellent reply, thanks for the information....

 

You mentioned a forum dedicated to this process -- got a link? If so, PM it to me if you don't mind.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #72)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:02 PM

75. No I can't, it is for trans women and men only. No cis people allowed. Like I said you're probably

 

better off getting a good book on the subject, finding some kind of research program at a university or SKYPING me or someone else

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #75)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:03 PM

76. Understandable. One of these days I'll get skype I suppose.

 

One day.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:33 PM

22. I agree with you. There seem to be no good answers. n/t

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:51 PM

12. I used the men's restroom at Safeway yesterday

Of course, it was a one-holer, and the women's room was broken. BTW, the men's room was disgusting. Even if one isn't a transsexual, I'd use the women's room because it's cleaner!

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Response to AnnieBW (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 15, 2013, 10:58 PM

15. As a trans woman I have seen my share of disgusting bathrooms of both sexes. Usually the women's is

 

cleaner but the one at my work isn't too good. I haven't been in the men's one to compare though.

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Response to AnnieBW (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:55 AM

58. Yeah, men's rooms are usually nasty... That's why I only use female restrooms..

Well, not really, but I have had to before because I really had to go and didn't have much of a choice. I was always shocked at how much cleaner and better smelling women's restrooms usually were.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 01:05 AM

47. The potty police make me ill.

Its like the showerphobes over DADT.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #47)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:25 PM

66. I use mens and womens bathrooms.

my gender is in between.I know an inter-sexed woman,she looks like a male but cannot stand up to pee and has feminine behaviors,except she can't fool the girls 100%,one time she had to show the cops she indeed lacked a penis,despite being hairy. I felt bad for her. I wish gender the whole concept of it would die.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 11:22 AM

54. It's not just bigotry - it's fear

Restrooms are one of the places women do get raped.

And every guy in a restroom is not there to take a dump or a leak.

I've known several women who've gotten raped in a restroom. One of them when she was 14 in her highschool. It was a janitor.

This isn't just prejudice. Also, how the heck did anyone know the transgender was a male? In women's restrooms, there are stalls.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #54)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:00 PM

59. In this case it seems they banned her for no real good reason

How often would she even use the restrooms? If a guy went into the female restroom either by mistake or just 'cause it smelt better, would they have banned him if it only happened once? To me, it seems the "interesting" or "difficult" situation would be if the person (either this women or the hypothetical man in my made up situation) were to use the female restroom on a regular basis.

However, if that was the case, then the hypothetical male would most be exposed as just being a creep and everyone would know of the transgender women and not be alarmed. Does that make any sense?

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Response to octothorpe (Reply #59)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:27 PM

60. i don't know

Admittedly, most people don't use the bathrooms at the grocery store very often. I can only remember doing this once in my entire life. The story says that she had used the restroom multiple times. Maybe that was over a period of years, who knows?

But I don't think that most trans-women do cause a problem when they use women's bathrooms because of the nature of women's bathrooms, where bodily functions take place in private.

Or maybe this person was using the bathroom when out in public and not just shopping (perhaps due to concern about other facilities) and the frequent use caused concern?

I would not automatically assume that this was bigotry. In general, there would be something that caused this incident. It could be bigotry, but it's probably something else.

In general, if women know or suspect that a person with male genitals is using a women's restroom and ANYTHING happens that seems suspicious, they will complain. But it's not due to bigotry. I've heard both cops and self-defense types tell women that public restrooms are high-risk place for rape. Two of my friends were raped in restrooms. Because girls will go in there women will be alert to such things even if they are not personally concerned.

It may sound stupid to you, but restrooms are not dangerous when they are crowded and they are dangerous when they are not crowded, and the distinction is one that most women learn to pay some attention to. So because a supermarket bathroom probably doesn't get much traffic it is going to be one of the more dangerous places and women would be more alert.

Women also get robbed a lot in restrooms. Often by other women.

If, for example, I saw someone going into a supermarket female bathroom who appeared to be a man, I would stop and observe or follow him/her in if it were multiple occupancy. If the bathroom were single occupancy I'd stop and wait by the door. If the person exited within a reasonable time I wouldn't bother further. But if the person seemed to be in there for very long I would try the door or knock. If the door were not locked and the person in there didn't call out like any woman would, I would grab someone else and tell them to watch and prevent anyone else from going in and run and get a manager.

It's kind of automatic behavior - almost subconscious. I have seen people that I was sure were at least biologically men using women's restrooms, but it never triggered an alert because the person was clearly just using the bathroom.

My hunch would be that this person was using the bathroom with unusual frequency and that management got suspicious, but that's just a wild guess.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #54)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:13 PM

65. The person was probably viewed outside of the stall. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #65)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:26 PM

67. Peeing standing up

And it was store security:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/13/17733363-transgender-woman-banned-from-idaho-grocery-store-over-restroom-use?lite

Who said that customers were complaining of being nervous after noticing that this lady was peeing standing up.

Also cited multiple visits over a couple of days? Either a UTI or something else is going on. How many people have ever used the bathroom in a grocery store that often unless they worked there?

It's not your normal transwoman who pees standing up. She looks very feminine - there's a picture here:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/post/rosauers-supermarket-idaho-bans-trans-woman-store&h=498&w=280&sz=27&tbnid=pRpu_KYLspredM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=59&zoom=1&usg=__VxkqAB61K04SuamG03Lw69ZffHE=&docid=1YFwTmkHHYfQTM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sbFtUdT9N7Pq0QGl34DABQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQ9QEwAg&dur=41

But peeing standing up? That's odd.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #67)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:43 PM

68. Multiple visits over a couple days. In a grocery store?

Someone else told me that a way to tell true transwomen from predators in female clothing was that predators "linger" and hang around. Which is why the store security was probably worried about this woman. But I agree -- she doesn't look scary.

A UTI? If she has fully transitioned, that would be possible. But a person who can still pee standing up wouldn't have a risk factor for that -- i.e., a short urethra.

This whole issue is much more complicated than many people here think it is.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #68)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 07:58 PM

74. Men get UTIs too

What the heck. Maybe it's a setup. I don't know.

That or a UTI. But something's odd.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 06:06 PM

73. I think the women's room is the most obvious choice for a transgendered woman

The person most likely to be attacked in this scenario is the transgendered woman, not some random woman in the bathroom. And that transgendered woman is safer in the women's room than the men's room, isn't she? Plus we have stalls so she and everyone else can have privacy. Which apparently she needs as people seem oddly concerned with whether she sits or stands.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2013, 12:35 AM

78. Disgusting actions on the stores part

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