God Bless the Sex Worker.

[Old and In the Way]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/10/sex-workers-disabled-people

Seems damn honorable to me.....

[NYC_SKP]

1. K/R (nt)

[Warpy]

2. Yes, it's one reason I support full legalization and regulation

A lot of men have compelling reasons for using a pro.

[ismnotwasm]

9. And women?

Why just men?

[Old and In the Way]

73. i assumed she meant people.

I think she's pro-ERA...

















i

[Warpy]

91. She is.

[Warpy]

90. One thing at a time. Once we get women sex workers protected

then I'm sure the men will get into the act.

[Summer Hathaway]

3. Wow!

Very insightful article, and extremely well-written.

[zappaman]

4. Kick and Rec!

And ready to see where this goes...!

[Old and In the Way]

7. I look forward to a stimulating

dialog...a back and forth, from a variety of posters who perceive reality from fundamentally different sexual lenses.

[LadyHawkAZ]

13. That's a helluva optimistic streak you got there

because I was looking forward to a total flame war from a small-tent variety of posters whose sexual lenses are equipped with blackout shades.

[zappaman]

20. Ask

and you shall receive...downthread....night shift.

[LadyHawkAZ]

21. Yeppers

Beer?

[zappaman]

23. Usually yes.

But tonight is scotch.

[Old and In the Way]

27. Just offering an interesting story to the entire DU community to comment on.

It would kind of suck if we all agreed on every post.

[zappaman]

30. I promise to kick this in the morning for the day shift.

[sendero]

102. LOLZ...

.... well I guess you just about nailed it.

IMHO, some people just simply never actually "grow up", as in becoming mature human beings.

[Luminous Animal]

5. Yep. I raised my daughter to be one. You should too.

[zappaman]

6. That is so awesome!

You must be proud!
Isn't it wonderful when our children grow up to actually make someone's life better...more positive?
Tell your daughter she is a great human being for giving some happiness to someone less fortunate.

[Luminous Animal]

10. I am proud. I hope you raised your daughters the same, Have you?

[zappaman]

12. Well, one is a Dental Assistant and the other works the pole at a local club.

I'm proud of them both.
So, we have something in common...we are both happy and love our daughters whatever it is they do!

[ismnotwasm]

19. How many bouncers does the club have?

Women in the sex industry need protection, and I hope your daughter stays safe and well

[zappaman]

22. She can take care of herself.

Contrary to what you might think, many women can look out after themselves.

[ismnotwasm]

60. Your daughter works in a club without bouncers?

And you think this is SAFE? And I'm a champion at taking care of myself.

Why do you assume I think other women couldn't? Even so, any club I worked at I was very grateful for bouncers more than once.

[zappaman]

63. No. They have them.

But my kids are tough too.

[ismnotwasm]

69. Hmmm

Okey dokey.

[LadyHawkAZ]

18. I raised my daughters to make their own choices

Always hated watching parents shove a child into a predetermined mold. As long as they're happy, I'm happy. YMMV.

[BainsBane]

15. And if she is enslaved?

Held in bondage, trafficked, locked up, and beaten. There are more people living in slavery now than at any point in human history, and most are women and girls forced against their will into sex work. Is that still cool to you?

There is information about this on the State Dept website, the UN, and a number of organizations working toward the abolition of slavery.

[zappaman]

17. That's a horrible thing to say.

"Better yet if she is enslaved
Held in bondage, trafficked, locked up, and beaten."

WTF is wrong with you?

[BainsBane]

24. That is the reality of the conditions of good numbers of sex workers

You treat as light hearted an industry that enslaved and kills boys, girls, and women in alarming numbers.

[zappaman]

25. It's still a horrible thing to wish on someone.

Not sure why you would...

[BainsBane]

49. I don't wish it on anyone

Nor do I find it a source of amusement. Why don't you read up on the issue of human trafficking rather than continuing to celebrate as "awesome" an industry that enslaves and kills women, girls and boys.

[zappaman]

52. How about you not put words in my mouth?

"Why don't you read up on the issue of human trafficking rather than continuing to celebrate as "awesome" an industry that enslaves and kills women, girls and boys."

Show me where, in this thread or any other, I celebrate " as "awesome" an industry that enslaves and kills women, girls and boys.""

Take your time...

[BainsBane]

54. Your post, verbatim

zappaman (7,966 posts)
"6. That is so awesome!

Last edited Thu Apr 11, 2013, 01:04 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

You must be proud!
Isn't it wonderful when our children grow up to actually make someone's life better...more positive?
Tell your daughter she is a great human being for giving some happiness to someone less fortunate. "

[zappaman]

55. Thank you for posting what I actually said!

Now tell me if it says I celebrate " as "awesome" an industry that enslaves and kills women, girls and boys.""

Take your time...

[Summer Hathaway]

68. Apparently

someone here thinks that the statement "Isn't it wonderful when our children grow up to actually make someone's life better...more positive?" is somehow a nasty, demeaning-to-all-women comment.

But then, there are some here who think EVERY statement is somehow nasty and demeaning to all women.

I, for one, celebrate your statement. Seeing our children grow up to make someone's life better and more positive is our best reward for having survived the challenges of raising them, as insurmountable as those challenges sometimes seemed.

[BainsBane]

71. Go read about human trafficking

on the UN and State Department websites. http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-trafficking/what-is-human-trafficking.html
Watch some of the videos on CSPAN from Yale's conference last year at Yale's Gilder-Lerhman Center for the Study of Slavery, and then we can talk about it. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/event/210395

Additional sources: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/15/the-truth-about-sex-trafficking/

http://www.polarisproject.org/human-trafficking/overview

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2013/04/10/working-together-combat-human-trafficking

http://www.wgbh.org/articles/Human-Trafficking-The-Crisis-in-Boston-314

[Hayabusa]

108. Well, if the industry was well-regulated and taxed

that would clear up a lot of that, wouldn't it? Or at least a good number.

[LadyHawkAZ]

29. Those aren't sex workers

They are slaves.

[zappaman]

33. Shhhh!

Those terms are interchangeable to some here.

[BainsBane]

40. It's all a joke to you

The young Canadian girl Who was gang raped kills herself, it's a source of hilarity for you. As you did in ths thread, where people called you out on your insensitivity. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2646812
The fact millions of women are enslaved, have a toast in celebration.

[zappaman]

45. Blah blah blah

How about keeping to the discussion?
And I find neither topic funny, but some of the posters are downright ridiculous!

[BainsBane]

51. This is the discussion. Slavery is as much a part of this discussion

As low wages are to Walmart and IPhones.

[zappaman]

53. No it's not. n/t

[BainsBane]

77. Why not?

Last edited Thu Apr 11, 2013, 04:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Are workers's rights inconsequential to you? What if the girl is underage and forced to service a man against her will? What's the justification here? The accumulation of capital is justified in all circumstances? Whatever the customer wants, the customer should get at the lowest price possible? The conditions of workers only matter if they are male? Or you can't be bothered to think or care about it?

[Maraya1969]

100. There are male and female sex workers on that site that you can hire.

And I doubt with an extra double doubt that any of them are slaves!

[LittleBlue]

72. Results of my jury service

At Thu Apr 11, 2013, 06:48 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Blah blah blah
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2652546

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

His disgusting laughter at enslaved women forced into sex work is repulsive. Yesterday he spent an entire thread making jokes in a thread about a young Canadian girl gang raped and then shamed to the point where she committed suicide. His continual efforts to demean the lives of women raped, killed, and enslaved is as repulsive as it gets.

The other thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022643125#post115
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022643125#post5
Keep in mind this is in response to the suicide of a young girl, a victim of gang raped that the article in the OP describes as having killed herself due to "slut shaming." Now when informed the sex industry he celebrates is connected with human trafficking and slavery at levels unknown in human history, it's a source of more yucks for him.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Apr 11, 2013, 06:57 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: I don't care to see the other thread dragged into it. The obnoxiousness here is enough for me to delete. Not sure who decides when the track record warrants the axe, but this is like twice in three days that I have voted to hide for this guy.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This particular post that was alerted on is not offensive, IMO. I would have alerted on a few different posts instead. I can't hide a post for someone's general behaviour in GD, but only for the content of that particular post.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Whatever posts he may have made yesterday are irrelevant here. It's this post that is being judged, and I find nothing wrong with it. In fact he specifically states that he does not find the topic humorous, merely the reactions of some responding to it are.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Alerter: Please stop abusing the Alert feature.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I thought they were talking about "The Sessions." ???

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Phillip McCleod]

107. so tacky.. posting jury results. does someone miss meta? \n

[BainsBane]

37. Enslaved sex workers

Last edited Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:10 AM - Edit history (2)

They do the same thing against their own will. And there are millions of them around the world, tens of thousands in this country.

Saying they aren't sex workers is like saying African Americans in antebellum Georgia didn't pick cotton. They did so because they were enslaved.

I wonder how a John can tell if a woman whose services he procures is free or enslaved?

[LadyHawkAZ]

48. Short answer:

They can't. The conditions forced on the industry have made it that way. Welcome to the joys of criminalized sex.

[BainsBane]

61. So this is my point

You confirmed my suspicion. They can't tell. So WTF are they doing hiring women who could very well be enslaved? If we don't shop at Walmart because of how they treat their employees, why should any so-called progressive/liberal man justify hiring prostitutes when they could very well be enslaved?

[LadyHawkAZ]

78. The same reason they hire a maid that might be enslaved

because they are hiring someone to perform a service, and the odds of that person actually being enslaved are fairly slim. There are an estimated 1 million prostitutes in the U.S., but the estimated number of trafficked persons (including forced labor) in the U.S. is only 100,000. Even if you went way on the high side and assumed that half of those are trafficked in the sex industry, your chances of hiring a volunteer are 95%.

[BainsBane]

79. If someone has an enslaved maid

they know it because they keep her as a slave. That's 1 in 10 odds, LadyHawkAZ. I wouldn't consider those low at all.

[LadyHawkAZ]

83. By the numbers I just gave

they have a 5% chance of hiring a trafficking victim. That's 1 in 20 i.e. 19 volunteers for each trafficking victim. And IIRC my estimate of 50,000 is on the high side. It's still higher than it ought to be, because what it ought to be is 0, but the odds are actually not high at all.

Germany has reported finding them much easier to identify post-legalization.

[BainsBane]

87. I just read an article

about how Germany has unusually high levels of human trafficking. http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/04/08/297237/modern-slavery-grips-germany/

[LadyHawkAZ]

88. Where in the article did you see that? n/t

[BainsBane]

92. 100,000 out of 1 million

is 10%. I'll try to figure out where I read that point about Germany.

[LadyHawkAZ]

93. 100,000 is the total inc. forced labor and sex trafficking

not the total for sex trafficking only.

[BainsBane]

94. they are forced laborers

only their labor is sex. That article doesn't give specific numbers for industries people are enslaved in.

[LadyHawkAZ]

95. Semantics

Last edited Thu Apr 11, 2013, 06:33 PM - Edit history (1)

100,000 is the total including forced nonsexual labor and sex trafficking, is that better? I used an estimate, which IIRC is on the high side, and assigned half that total number to sex trafficking. The actual percentage would be lower than the value I assigned, because if memory serves the percentage of sex trafficking to total trafficking numbers is somewhere in the 10-20% range. I can't remember where I ran across that stat and can't find a conflicting one either, so I estimated well over that and set the value at half the total. If you can find an accurate stat, just rework the math, but it's still not going to reach 1 in 10.

[sendero]

103. At least they have a mind..

... and not a one-track automata bent on turning every topic into their pet concern.

You are basically saying sex-worker = slave and I'm telling you that you are full of shit.

[BainsBane]

105. I did not say that

But then you didn't bother reading my responses here and instead opted for personal insults.

[BainsBane]

106. My "pet topic"

Right, because why would anyone on a liberal site care about the lives of millions of enslaved human beings, especially when 2/3 of them are women. Naturally it's important people not be aware of such information or they might actually have to accept some responsibility for their own role in creating the highest levels of slavery in human history.

[BainsBane]

81. For me, it's like drugs

As long as drugs are illegal, buying them means you are contributing to deaths that result from illegal drug trafficking. Now, those deaths may be the result of the fact that drugs are illegal, but they still occur. I do not want blood on my hands, therefore I don't buy drugs. I see the prostitution issue as similar. Of course, I would never be in a position to hire a prostitute because I have no reason to do so. I could, however, buy drugs or shop at Walmart. I choose not to because I don't want to contribute to death and exploitation if I can avoid it. I realize I finance labor exploitation all the time, as all of us in this country do in our daily purchasing habits. I, however, choose to limit my complicity wherever I can.

[LadyHawkAZ]

84. I look at it this way

We fight sweatshops without driving the clothing industry out of business, or criminalizing pants. We fight forced labor without boycotting farming, or arresting grocery shoppers. We can fight trafficking without abusing sex workers, or jailing their clients. It's not really that difficult a concept, once people are able to get their heads past the whole sex bit- which is unfortunately a battle in itself.

[BainsBane]

85. I'm all for not abusing sex workers

Last edited Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:04 AM - Edit history (1)

but I do think Johns need to be jailed because they are ones engaged in criminal conduct, particularly when procuring underage girls. When I was between 10-14 years old, I recall walking down the street and several times having men stop in their cars and try to solicit me as for sex, asking me if "I was working," etc. I told the assholes I'd go right down to the police station down the block and turn them in if they didn't leave me alone. So the fallout of the sex industry goes beyond those who willingly take on the work. Children shouldn't have to deal with men trying to hire them for sex.

I don't know what the best solution is, but something has to be done because the idea that slavery flourishes now more than at any point in history is appalling. Sex, I could care less about. In fact, I've often wished men interested only in sex would hire ADULT sex workers rather than bothering women (or harassing children), who aren't interested in sex only interactions.

[Maraya1969]

99. The manufacturing industry enslaves people too in some countries. That

does not mean the manufacturing industry is inherently bad. It means slavery is bad.

I never thought about the disabled and the great benefits the sex worker can give to them, (not as slaves) until I read this article. These people work of their own free will.

[Old and In the Way]

14. What would Christ do?

He'd cast his lot with the sinners. He knew a hypocrite when he saw one....

And if my daughter felt this unique capability to connect with a significant, but isolated part of our society and this life course gave her personal meaning and fulfillment in this life, I'd be totally OK...would you really be different? Please note my statement qualifications.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. You chose your daughter's career for her?

That seems awfully controlling.

[ismnotwasm]

8. Yes all those honorable male sex workers out there

Helping disabled heterosexual women.

Oh wait...

[cliffordu]

11. ??

[zappaman]

16. Are there disabled heterosexual women who are asking for this and not getting it?

Surely, you have links...?

[ismnotwasm]

28. Why would I have links?

It was sarcasm.

Out of curiosity, Do you think disabled women are not sexual? Have no sexual desire?

Or that there is systematic availability of male sex workers for heterosexual disabled women?

In any case, male or female, it's the rare disabled person who is "allowed" by society to be considered a sexual being. It's huge problem, having more to do with invisibility and common assumptions of the disabled. I don't totally disagree with the OP, it simply irritates me when sexual accommodations are assumed for males only.

[zappaman]

32. See post #26

If you are male, maybe you should start doing it.
If you are female, maybe you could start a company that hires males to be sexual surrogates for disabled females.

That's not to say there aren't any already...

[ismnotwasm]

38. Very few and very costly

Sexual dynamics being what they are, heterosexual male escorts are not wide spread. I don't know the state of the homosexual sex worker personally now, but I lost nearly every single friend I had in the eighties to AIDs,--suicide, murder, but mostly AID's. because nearly every single friend I had was a male sex worker.

The dynamic was not much different for them than female sex workers.


Why would I start a company?

[zappaman]

41. I lost people to AIDS as well.

They WEREN'T sex workers, so what's your point?

And did you even read the article?

[ismnotwasm]

58. Yes, I've said I don't entirely disagree with it.

And you missed the part where I said 'nearly all' it was a fucking Holocaust. Lost women friends to AIDs as well, and a serial killer, johns, pimps etc. I believe in decriminalization of sex work with very strict protective laws.


This is a woo woo group out of California (Reiki?) that I suspect caters to wealthier clients. The reality of the disabled, male or female is a lot more stark.

[zappaman]

59. I would agree to that. n/t

[Hissyspit]

36. I'm confused. Did you not read the article?

"As for disabled women, many tell me they would love to pay somebody who knows what they are doing, who helps them learn what their bodies are capable of enjoying, but most never try. They may be nervous that the man they are paying is not entirely professional and they may not think enough of themselves to treat themselves to the luxury of pleasure. That, I hope is changing. Most of the women I know who have paid have gone to female sex workers, and none of them have involved their mother in the process of making contact."

[ismnotwasm]

50. I'm actually talking about availability.

As well as cost.

I have to admit to a little inside knowledge; at one time I was a LTC nurse. We'd occasionally have a situation where a resident could afford female sex workers (it was tactically not acknowledged they were sex workers)

Never once for females.

[Hissyspit]

75. Oh, o.k.

[waddirum]

26. here you go

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/27/the_sexual_healers_next_door/

[ismnotwasm]

34. The next question is cost

I've read about this; its a good idea, but into not widespread and not cheap. I'm not interested in using and manipulating the disabled to induce a sex work debate, I like honesty in the discussion.

[ismnotwasm]

44. It doesn't

Aren't we discussing sexual agency for the disabled? And possible solutions?

[zappaman]

46. First, you should read the article. n/t

[Kurska]

56. Seems there may be less article reading than average in this thread.

Seems like there are a lot of questions that could be answered from reading.

[ismnotwasm]

62. Did.

[zappaman]

65. #36 seems to answer your question then. n/t

[JI7]

31. i read that sex workers usually come from poor backgrounds

they don't have many other options of making money and a decent living .

also why are so many of them female ?

[cthulu2016]

43. Most hotel maids also come from poor backgrounds.

[JI7]

80. yes, it's not something most would do if they had other options

[LittleBlue]

70. I think most are female because

for whatever reason, women don't seem to like hiring prostitutes. Most don't have to, as men are usually available. And a lot of men don't crave a connection beyond physical when having sex.

[RainDog]

82. The article notes mothers seem to think their son's sexual life is important

No mothers had called to help their daughters engage a sex worker.

No fathers had called to help their daughters find a sex worker - although fathers had called for their sons.

Since so many of the initial contacts were made my parents, I think you have to look at the parental attitudes - the assumption that male sexual satisfaction is, for some reason, more important.

Part of the work is simply about touch in a non-clinical way, as well.

Maybe women feel more comfortable making an appt. with a masseuse or masseur.

When women weren't supposed to like sex, they went to doctors, who massaged them to orgasm, so there's a history of sex work among doctors in the west. Then someone invented a smaller vibrator and women were expected to deal with the problem of "congestion" themselves.

But it's entirely within the realm of recent history for women to go to trusted men for orgasms.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Oh, man.

[Old and In the Way]

66. if I can hold you to 2 words and a graphic....

I done good. I was hoping to see you on this thread!

[ismnotwasm]

74. That's what I thought.

More flame bait.

Ok, I'm gone.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. I am under no illusions that it's a great job for many of the people who do it. However, that said

I do tend to think consenting adults should be free to make their own minds up.

...if regulation, taxation and legalization are a better route to go to make it safer for people who DO choose to do it, that ought to be the way to go.

And I am talking, of course, about consenting adults. There should be zero tolerance for anyone who forces anyone else into that life- throw the book at them.

[ismnotwasm]

67. I think decriminalization

With strict protective laws, and I mean laws with laws with teeth to protect sex workers. I'm tired of (mostly) women being prosecuted for what is an economic decision.

I'm afraid I'm too pragmatic for the 'inner goddess' and 'Reiki' stuff in the article; although different strokes and all that.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. Like a lot of things, I suspect it's not going away no matter what anyone does~ so, the question

is, to my mind, how to make it safer for the worker involved. I think that's a reasonable question.

I tend to think regulation and legalization does that job better than driving things underground, and most social problems that involve ostensibly consenting adults engaging in a mutually agreed upon transaction (think drug dealing) are pretty difficult to stamp out, even with draconian laws and sentences.

And as I said, there should be no tolerance for anyone who forces anyone else to do anything.

[Macoy51]

89. Amen!

Legalize it, regulate it, tax it, is the best way to stop the abuse.


Macoy

[treestar]

97. And I'd add full employment

And full drug treatment availability. It's not as much of a free choice if extreme poverty and unemployment is the alternative, or if it's to keep up a drug addiction.

[Warren DeMontague]

98. A livable minimum wage, too.

[idwiyo]

57. K&R

[LittleBlue]

64. Indeed. God bless them

It's their choice, and it seems they're providing a service that others need but wouldn't be available otherwise.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. Shiny.

[treestar]

96. Nice for the consumer of said services

But a lot of things are nice for the recipient but still illegal.

I still think of the sex worker, who has no better option for making money. They aren't having sex, they are working. And in the most unpleasant way possible.

[geek tragedy]

101. Men's access to vaginas is a sacred entitlement, after all. nt

[FedUpWithIt All]

104. I have compassion for these people who are physically limited

and can see no downside to them having family that loves and cares for them enough to want them to experience as many of life's joys as possible. Business or medical arrangements seem the only way to accomplish this end, as far as sexuality is concerned. To me it comes off more as another form of therapy than commonly understood "sex work" and perhaps it should be relabeled.

I do think that women also suffer from a lack of physical gratification, whatever form that may take, when they are physically disabled to this degree and the report in the OP hinted as much. Perhaps if this aspect of human need became more of a medical concern the women who suffer from these disabilities might also feel secure enough to seek out this type of therapeutic care.

I just do not think it is a good idea to blend common sex work, which carries with it some very serious issues of abuse and trafficking, and the sexual therapy of physically disabled adults.