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babylonsister

(171,056 posts)
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:28 PM Apr 2013

"Even by 2013 standards, this is scary stuff."

Posted with permission.

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/04/03/17588359-next-stage-in-the-culture-war-official-state-religions


Next stage in the culture war: official state religions
By Steve Benen
-
Wed Apr 3, 2013 4:01 PM EDT


Let's see, we're just a few months into 2013 -- a year following campaigns in which social issues hurt the GOP -- and we've already seen Republican policymakers ban abortion rights, reject marriage equality, go after contraception access, target Planned Parenthood, and go after sex-ed.

What else is there? Wait, I know, how about an effort to empower state lawmakers to declare an official religion, shamelessly thumbing its nose at the Constitution?

A bill filed by Republican lawmakers would allow North Carolina to declare an official religion, in violation of the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Bill of Rights, and seeks to nullify any federal ruling against Christian prayer by public bodies statewide. [...]

House Bill 494, a resolution filed by Republican Rowan County Reps. Harry Warren and Carl Ford, would refuse to acknowledge the force of any judicial ruling on prayer in North Carolina – or indeed on any Constitutional topic:

"The Constitution of the United States does not grant the federal government and does not grant the federal courts the power to determine what is or is not constitutional; therefore, by virtue of the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the power to determine constitutionality and the proper interpretation and proper application of the Constitution is reserved to the states and to the people," the bill states.

Got that? These North Carolina Republicans are arguing, with a straight face, that U.S. courts can't decide what's constitutional under the U.S. Constitution. They're also arguing that the First Amendment doesn't apply to North Carolina, so they're free to make their faith the official religion on their state.

It's the 21st century. I just thought I should mention that.

Also note, while every state legislature will have random nutballs introducing some ridiculous proposals every year, this plan has nine co-sponsors. That's not enough to represent a serious threat, at least not yet, but it's nine too many.

The hyper-radical philosophy behind proposals like these have an ugly pedigree.

Catawba College politics Professor Michael Bitzer told the Post it reminded him of the ideology that many Southern states turned to after the U.S. Supreme Court's Brown v. Board of Education decision mandating public school integration.

"They basically want to ensure that a long line of U.S. Supreme Court rulings have no validity either here in Rowan County or here in the entire state," Bitzer said. "They're basing it on – to put it mildly – discredited legal theory that the states can deny the power of the federal government within their jurisdiction."

Gary Freeze, a history and politics professor at Catawba College, told the newspaper the bill verged on being "neo-secessionist."


Even by 2013 standards, this is scary stuff.
41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
"Even by 2013 standards, this is scary stuff." (Original Post) babylonsister Apr 2013 OP
It gets worse: G_j Apr 2013 #1
Wow. I thought there were a lot babylonsister Apr 2013 #5
From what I can tell G_j Apr 2013 #7
I've had relatives from Asheville all my life. They're very educated and liberal. maddiemom Apr 2013 #21
It's just beginning G_j Apr 2013 #40
Whee. Sounds like NC will become Tea Heaven and Human Hell. Kablooie Apr 2013 #37
nc is so screwed. barbtries Apr 2013 #2
14th Amendment? How the fuck does it work? TheMightyFavog Apr 2013 #3
These people flunked 6th grade Social Studies. nt redqueen Apr 2013 #4
They never really renounced the CSA, is what this is. freshwest Apr 2013 #11
Wow, the CSA and North Korea have something in common! Beartracks Apr 2013 #30
I don't see anything in common there, explain. freshwest Apr 2013 #32
Not really a deep analysis. Beartracks Apr 2013 #41
I think that it time for North Carolina to stand up, sheshe2 Apr 2013 #6
Quote from the article: Volaris Apr 2013 #8
They passed civics, they just don't care. Over-riding the Constitution is thuggery. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2013 #10
It is an interesting argument quaker bill Apr 2013 #9
Actually just a few Colonies had established religions, only a few States retained them and Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #34
Does still present an interesting question quaker bill Apr 2013 #35
Sure why not UBEEDelusional Apr 2013 #12
That's not the way it works - see Texas v White 1869 Supreme Court decision curlyred Apr 2013 #25
The Constitution is not carved in stone and can be changed UBEEDelusional Apr 2013 #38
Secessionist crap. There is a reason we call this a Union. curlyred Apr 2013 #39
I think the correct response is LAUGHTER Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #13
Except it's already up to 9 'imbeciles'... how many more might sign on? nt babylonsister Apr 2013 #15
Hopefully ALL of them. Hopefully they pass it... (cont) Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #17
But what state will it stop in? babylonsister Apr 2013 #20
Okay.... What exactly is your concern? Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #22
Every damn thing they do. babylonsister Apr 2013 #23
I hear that :) nt Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #24
I think the correct response is LAUGHTER AlbertCat Apr 2013 #16
They cannot ruin anything but their own party and careers. nt Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #19
Lordy Jesus! littlemissmartypants Apr 2013 #14
Stick a fork in NC -- it'd done. n/t Beartracks Apr 2013 #28
I have relatives in North Carolina and have spent time in the state over the years. maddiemom Apr 2013 #18
They've been cherry picking the Bible for years curlyred Apr 2013 #26
So, the U.S. Constitution doesn't apply to.... any part of the actual U.S.? Beartracks Apr 2013 #27
Hey NC repukes! How did that secessionie thingey work out fer ya in 1861? muntrv Apr 2013 #29
Wtf is going on with my home state? Politicub Apr 2013 #31
Is there a radiation leak in NC? proReality Apr 2013 #33
I had entertained notions of retiring there quaker bill Apr 2013 #36

G_j

(40,366 posts)
7. From what I can tell
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:15 PM
Apr 2013

they absolutely hate us here
in gay friendly, tolerant, diverse, artistic Asheville. They have already made moves to take over our water. It's serious!

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
21. I've had relatives from Asheville all my life. They're very educated and liberal.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 07:28 PM
Apr 2013

I've not been in touch this last year or so> Are they really under siege by rednecks?

G_j

(40,366 posts)
40. It's just beginning
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 12:52 PM
Apr 2013

City council is talking about cutting all kinds of important services now, thanks to Republican tactics to hurt us.

Kablooie

(18,625 posts)
37. Whee. Sounds like NC will become Tea Heaven and Human Hell.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 02:42 AM
Apr 2013

I wonder how long until the effects of all this becomes apparent to the population?

barbtries

(28,787 posts)
2. nc is so screwed.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 05:52 PM
Apr 2013

all i had to write was "NC is" and the rest dropped down for me. guess i've already mentioned that.

jeez i hate republicans.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
11. They never really renounced the CSA, is what this is.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:40 PM
Apr 2013

Even in Texas as I was growing up, we had a state holiday celebrating Jefferson Davis's birthday, and there was public wailing about Yankees and carpetbaggers.

These clowns never accepted defeat. Generations have been singing 'The South is Going to Rise Again.' That the Confederate flag is still argued over a century later is very telling.

Same people have taken over the political scene through the Tea Party and the media as a whole, so it has given life to their horrible ideology. Nothing they do should be a surprise:

Confederate philosophy, read the dreck (emboldening font mine) and weep:

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal...

As I have stated, the truth of this principle may be slow in development, as all truths are and ever have been, in the various branches of science. It was so with the principles announced by Galileo it was so with Adam Smith and his principles of political economy. It was so with Harvey, and his theory of the circulation of the blood. It is stated that not a single one of the medical profession, living at the time of the announcement of the truths made by him, admitted them. Now, they are universally acknowledged. May we not, therefore, look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgment of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made "one star to differ from another star in glory." The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders "is become the chief of the corner" the real "corner-stone" in our new edifice. I have been asked, what of the future? It has been apprehended by some that we would have arrayed against us the civilized world. I care not who or how many they may be against us, when we stand upon the eternal principles of truth, if we are true to ourselves and the principles for which we contend, we are obliged to, and must triumph...


http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint=76

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014260932#post149

In modern GOP, the old South returns

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harold-meyerson-in-modern-gop-the-old-south-returns/2012/08/28/4d673034-f144-11e1-892d-bc92fee603a7_print.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021225838

JMHO.

Beartracks

(12,809 posts)
30. Wow, the CSA and North Korea have something in common!
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:19 PM
Apr 2013

Both harbor delusions of grandeur and glory.

====================

Beartracks

(12,809 posts)
41. Not really a deep analysis.
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 04:42 PM
Apr 2013

It was just a thought I had when you mentioned "The South is Going to Rise Again." It just brought to mind the recent saber-rattling of N. Korea, making a show of how they want to dominate their enemies. I'd read somewhere that perhaps N. Korean leadership is just chest-thumping for the benefit of their populace, to distract them from the realities of their own isolation and relative impotence -- which is kind of the impression I get when I read about the boastful yet unrealistic claims of some that the South is going to rekindl and win the Civil War.

===============

sheshe2

(83,746 posts)
6. I think that it time for North Carolina to stand up,
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:11 PM
Apr 2013

and vote the bas***ds out of office!

Thanks for the post, babylonsister.

Volaris

(10,270 posts)
8. Quote from the article:
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:15 PM
Apr 2013


"These North Carolina Republicans are arguing, with a straight face, that U.S. courts can't decide what's constitutional under the U.S. Constitution. "

Right. 'Cause Marbury vs. Madison needs overturning. LOL.

"It is emphatically the province and duty of the JUDICIAL department to say what the law IS."

Yes they failed civics and social studies (to say nothing of their ABYSMAL understanding of modern Biology) but when they demonstrate so in such a Public fashion, all I can do is laugh at them, really

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,988 posts)
10. They passed civics, they just don't care. Over-riding the Constitution is thuggery.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:37 PM
Apr 2013

They like to say "We make our own reality."

Dominionists are some of the worst christians.

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
9. It is an interesting argument
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:16 PM
Apr 2013

Many states had established religions when the Constitution was written. I believe that State establishment of religion only ended perhaps 100+/- years ago. What is not at all clear is whether a state with an established religion could get federal funds for anything. Back in the day of state established religions, little if any federal funds flowed to the states, for anything. MA was a Puritan colony, and VA was an Anglican colony. PA was one of the few that had a "no establishment" government, which was in part why the Constitutional Convention was held in PA, as neutral ground.

Quakers are not fans of establishment, as a number of states had "quaker acts" on the books to prohibit us. These went mostly unenforced and dated back to the time when we were active in the underground railroad, but they remained on the books for quite some time.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
34. Actually just a few Colonies had established religions, only a few States retained them and
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:36 PM
Apr 2013

the last was disestablished in 1789 although MA funded the disestablished Congregational Church to some extent until 1833.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion#Protestant_colonies

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
35. Does still present an interesting question
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 09:35 PM
Apr 2013

Can states establish a religion? It is clear the feds can't. It is also pretty clear the feds could not fund an established church, even if established by the state.

I do not support this and think it is a really bad idea. But it may make for some landmark litigation.

 

UBEEDelusional

(54 posts)
12. Sure why not
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:46 PM
Apr 2013

If the majority in a state what to create a theocracy fine by me, hell they can even vote to be an independent nation too. Why should any state be part of the current incarnation of the USA if they would rather do something else? As an individual and you are part of a group and you no longer want to be associated with the group you leave or no longer deal with the group.

Freedom and Choice is that not what the founders really wanted for the people?

Is freedom and choice what everyone wants? It is what I want and I know others want that too.

 

UBEEDelusional

(54 posts)
38. The Constitution is not carved in stone and can be changed
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:31 AM
Apr 2013

Millions want to live in a racist gun toting theocracy so those that do can go their separate way. Those who do want to live in a racist gun toting theocracy can move forward. Besides those who do want to live in a gun racist toting theocracy have been holding the rest of the country back for over 30 years now. The vast majority of Americans would be better off if they just left.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
13. I think the correct response is LAUGHTER
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 06:54 PM
Apr 2013

It doesn't call for anger, alarm, or outrage, just laughter. Every time one of these imbeciles proposes one of these moronic bills they lose another swath of rational people who have simply had enough of their BS -- and more they show the true motivation that drives them. This is good.

There is ZERO downside to this for us. None. It's as idiotic as appointing Rambo as the state chief of police, or pronouncing that Fluttershy is the official My Little Pony. It has no power other than to demonstrate the insanity of those proposing the bill.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
17. Hopefully ALL of them. Hopefully they pass it... (cont)
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 07:19 PM
Apr 2013

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but you sound concerned. If so, stop it. This is exactly the kind of thing we want the GOP to do.

babylonsister

(171,056 posts)
20. But what state will it stop in?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 07:25 PM
Apr 2013

There's so many crazies out there, laws being passed in many states that 5 years ago were not even an issue. I just want them to stop acting so maniacal, and yes, I am concerned.

babylonsister

(171,056 posts)
23. Every damn thing they do.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 07:42 PM
Apr 2013

I don't know if it's the teabaggers or the orthodox conservatives that scare me because they are so out there in general. Or it might be the republican 'leadership' because they don't know what to do. I see your point!

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
16. I think the correct response is LAUGHTER
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 07:12 PM
Apr 2013

It's hard to laugh when your beautiful state is being ruined.

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
18. I have relatives in North Carolina and have spent time in the state over the years.
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 07:22 PM
Apr 2013

I have also lived in southern West Virginia and eastern Kentucky. Of all southern states, North Carolina has some impressive colleges and has produced some impressive and well known natives. There are way too many ignorant Republicans, not only in the southern states, but all over. As a child, I never especially liked a North Carolinian uncle by marriage, but he was the literal barefoot boy who worked his way up to wealth. I never heard him say a racially prejudiced word. As a northerner, I'm not setting myself as an expert on southern states, but North Carolina , in general, has always seemed very advanced to me.

Beartracks

(12,809 posts)
27. So, the U.S. Constitution doesn't apply to.... any part of the actual U.S.?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:16 PM
Apr 2013

Got it, North Carolina. Thanks for clarifying.



===========================

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
31. Wtf is going on with my home state?
Wed Apr 3, 2013, 08:21 PM
Apr 2013

There are some wonderfully blue areas in the state, but there are also many conservative areas that would put Alabama to shame.

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