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Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:56 AM

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaah hahahahahah when draft dodgers aren't draft dodgers!!

http://www.politifact.com/new-jersey/statements/2013/mar/24/liberals-are-cool/liberal-group-claims-mitt-romney-dick-cheney-donal/
<snip>
Draft dodger – the term conjures up images of Americans unwilling to serve their country and sneaking off to Canada to avoid being drafted for military service.

A group called Liberals Are Cool applied that term in an Internet meme - an idea or concept shared via social media - to six well-known Republicans – Mitt Romney, Donald Trump, Dick Cheney, Ted Nugent, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly.

"Q: What do these ‘Patriotic Americans’ have in common? A: They are all Draft Dodgers," according to the meme received March 17 by PolitiFact New Jersey.

"A draft dodger is someone who got drafted and has then fled, or it also might be a person who made a statement by not registering (for the draft)," he explained.

"I’m not a draft dodger," Schuback added, citing himself as an example. "I got a deferment because I was pursuing a college degree. Calling that a draft dodger is not correct. They can use it a different way but it’s not correct."

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Reply Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaah hahahahahah when draft dodgers aren't draft dodgers!! (Original post)
malaise Mar 2013 OP
spanone Mar 2013 #1
CBGLuthier Mar 2013 #2
el_bryanto Mar 2013 #4
alcibiades_mystery Mar 2013 #3
malaise Mar 2013 #14
Bandit Mar 2013 #17
MineralMan Mar 2013 #5
KansDem Mar 2013 #6
JHB Mar 2013 #7
AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #13
AAO Mar 2013 #25
AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #34
AAO Mar 2013 #41
union_maid Mar 2013 #29
sofa king Mar 2013 #40
alcibiades_mystery Mar 2013 #9
MineralMan Mar 2013 #39
Ganja Ninja Mar 2013 #11
MrScorpio Mar 2013 #8
madokie Mar 2013 #10
Blue Owl Mar 2013 #12
malaise Mar 2013 #16
linbarkertx Mar 2013 #15
malaise Mar 2013 #19
Bandit Mar 2013 #18
Brother Buzz Mar 2013 #21
Bandit Mar 2013 #22
Brother Buzz Mar 2013 #32
timdog44 Mar 2013 #24
Bandit Mar 2013 #28
timdog44 Mar 2013 #31
Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #20
WinstonSmith4740 Mar 2013 #23
AAO Mar 2013 #26
4Q2u2 Mar 2013 #36
kairos12 Mar 2013 #27
formercia Mar 2013 #30
yellowcanine Mar 2013 #33
4Q2u2 Mar 2013 #38
former9thward Mar 2013 #35
GoneOffShore Mar 2013 #37

Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:02 AM

1. k&r....

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:03 AM

2. deferment used to not be equal to dodging

like so many words it seems to have changed, at least in some "minds", for some stupid damned reason I can not fathom.


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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:28 AM

4. It's a tribal thing

Their tribe did it so it must be bad so we must describe it in bad terms. They are bad. We are good.

Simple.

Bryant

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:18 AM

3. The whole "fact check" turns on Schuback's definition

 

A draft dodger is someone who got drafted and has then fled, or it also might be a person who made a statement by not registering (for the draft).

But that's a completely subjective definition. There is no legal category named "draft dodger." It is a cultural designation only. Now, if Schuback - a lawyer(!) - wants to argue that none of the named GOPers are technically guilty of draft evasion under the law, that's one thing. But claiming that they are not technically draft dodgers is nonsensical, since there is no such technical category. Draft dodger, rather, is a cultural category used to designate people who avoided the draft, by hook or by crook, as it were. To be sure, it usually doesn't get applied to people who received legal deferments - especially among those who tended to receive legal deferments! The Schuback's of the world want to consider others to be draft dodgers, not themselves. But there's no good reason it couldn't be so applied, and there's plenty of evidence that people who were unable to receive legal deferments (for all kinds of reasons) at least looked with sidelong glances at those who did. (Needless to say, the specter of race and class privilege loom fairly large here, which is why Schuback's try to retreat into a non-existent technical category).

The article is also deceptive to some degree. It notes that the draft lottery for Vietnam began in December 1969. Well, yes, but there was a general draft in place in the United States between 1948 and 1973. Millions were drafted into service in the Vietnam era, or coaxed into volunteering through the draft (i.e. volunteering for a specific posting rather than being thrown into general infantry).

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:21 AM

14. Fugg the revisionists

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:30 AM

17. Didn't stop them from claiming Clinton was a draft dodger

If I had to use one word only to describe Republicans it would have to be Hypocrites.

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:29 AM

5. I got called a "draft dodger" after enlisting

in the USAF. It happened in a bar, and was said by a guy in an Army uniform. I was somewhat puzzled. He was right, though, in a way. I enlisted for four years as an alternative to being drafted for two years. Such were the choices in those days.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:14 AM

6. I knew more than one person in the late 1960s...

...who enlisted in the National Guard to avoid the draft.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:19 AM

7. One guy I used to worked with signed up for the navy...

...to avoid getting drafted into the army. Still got onshore posts that had lead flying his way.

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Response to JHB (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:11 AM

13. My father did that, but I don't think he was trying to avoid combat.

And he ended up serving in the brown water navy, so didn't avoid it anyway.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #13)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:54 AM

25. Was he on the Mekong Delta? What kind of boat?

 

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Response to AAO (Reply #25)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:28 AM

34. He was an electrician by trade, working on LCI's, I believe.

He would go along with. Very cramped engine rooms. The pictures he showed me appeared to be leftover WWII stuff, mostly.

Primarily they seemed to be delivering stuff, but they did come under fire more than a few times.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #34)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:43 PM

41. Sounds extremely claustrophobic to me. And I would know!!

 

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Response to JHB (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:58 AM

29. Most of the guys I knew did that

Navy was very popular in my town. And, if you joined before you were 18, you could be done with active duty in 3 years instead of 4. Knew some who did that, too. All of them came home except one, and that was an accident aboard an aircraft carrier. But no one called them draft dodgers. That would be the guys with deferrments, back in the day, especially spurious ones. Guys who went to Canada or Sweden were called draft evaders and those few who went to jail were called refusers. Or at least that's the way I remember it, some 45 years later.

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Response to JHB (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:12 PM

40. My old man got it all.

He went to college on a Naval scholarship, so he spent his summers as a mid-shipman--until he lost the scholarship, then they put him in Marine boot-camp for a summer.

Then he got out... and was drafted into the Army four weeks later. Once the active part of that was done, he was snapped up by a military contractor (rocket engineers were very popular then), and shipped off to Utah.

When his new employers discovered that he was still on the hook as a Guardsman, they freaked out. Utah, it was believed at the time, was going to be the first to volunteer its Guard for regular duty in Vietnam. Engineers who were rocket scientists were not defined as exempt from being activated. Not enough letters behind the name.

So my father's employers intervened, pulling strings to get his Guard service transferred back to his home state so that their precious rocket-guy wouldn't be sent to die in a jungle. Then the paperwork was "lost," not unlike W. Bush's, and he was never bothered again.

The important part to note here is that there was no legal solution for the problem my father faced; only bending and breaking the rules prevented my father from serving a full ten--mostly involuntary--years in the armed forces while also being a civilian national security asset for the training and education he had received.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:28 AM

9. Part of the official reasoning for the draft was that it spurred voluntary enlistments in the USAF

 

and Navy.

No joke. They kept good records of those who were pushed toward those voluntary enlistments through the draft process. As it turns out, you're one of millions who chose to enlist in perceived "less dangerous" postings rather than face the vagaries of the draft process that might end them in front line infantry combat units. Your experience in the bar is also fairly typical. The historical record shows us much resentment built around this particular effect.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #9)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:07 PM

39. I was 1A after dropping out of college. It was clear that I'd

get drafted at some point, since that was pre-lottery days in 1965. So, I chose my service branch and enlisted. When I did, I had no idea what duty I'd be doing. I chose the USAF because my father had served in WWII as a B-17 pilot in the USAAF. That was my reason. As it turned out, I ended up being sent to Russian language school and doing something involving that. That wasn't my choice, either, but just how it turned out.

Not a draft-dodger. An enlistee. I had a choice, and I made a choice. After four years, I was a civilian again, and went back to college. And so it went. I suppose what I did in the USAF was useful in some way, although I'm not certain of that. But the only choice I made was the branch of service, and that was made on historical family grounds.

I wasn't sent to Vietnam. Others in my basic training flight were. Some died. You make your choice and you take your chances. I was lucky.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:35 AM

11. I joined the Navy in 71 and volunteered for Submarine duty to try and avoid being sent to Vietnam.

They had no obligation to me and I could have been sent to Vietnam anyway but I got lucky and went to a Submarine. I still received hazardous duty pay which was the same as combat pay.

I also lost half of my thyroid a few years ago which may or may not have been due to living in a closed environment with a nuclear reactor and nuclear weapons for what amounted to almost a year of my life.

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:21 AM

8. The President and myself are both "draft dodgers" too

By both of us being born in 1961 and too young to be drafted before it ever ended.

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:30 AM

10. Originally I joined the Navy to stay out of Vietnam

after boot camp I was sent back to boot camp to train new recruits then I was sent to SERE school and then they left me there to train new students in survival training. While there most all the guys I was stationed with were straight from 'Nam so by the time it was time for me to leave there I volunteered for Vietnam. Spent 15 months in country then came home a very changed man. War has a tendency to do that to a person.
The draft dodgers who had enough together to leave and go to Canada in protest I have no problem with its the asshole shitheads who did every thing possible to stay out of VN who I have no use for. Those who went to Canada were just as brave as we who went to 'nam were in my eyes, those who took college deferments to stay out not so much.

ETA: By the time I left SERE school I felt my duty was to use what I had been taught to help my fellow brothers and sisters and thats why I made the decision to volunteer to go.

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:45 AM

12. K&R

This thread tastes like chickenhawk!

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Response to Blue Owl (Reply #12)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:24 AM

16. Ding ding we have a winner

and it's that nasty ReTHUG chickenhawk to boot

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:21 AM

15. Draft Dodgers

Back before I retired, I was in the locker room of the employee health club where I worked and one of the individuals in there was laughing and joking about Viet Nam and how his Dad has paid for 6 years of college so he wouldn't get drafted. Since I tend to go off at the slightest instance, I told him that he should go to the Traveling Wall and pick out a name, take a tracing of it and put it on the wall of his bedroom and every night Thank that guy that died so his precious ass didn't have to go. It became very quiet in there.

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Response to linbarkertx (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:33 AM

19. Excellent response

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:31 AM

18. For those in the know, my serial number began with US

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Response to Bandit (Reply #18)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:42 AM

21. My serial number was my SSN. I was AUS

Army of the United States. For those not in the know, both of us were on loan from Congress.

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #21)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:48 AM

22. My serial # did not become my SS number until I had been in for a couple of years

It did not begin with anything... There were four type of serial numbers when I first went in. ER stood for enlisted reserve, NG stood for National Guard, RA stood for regular Army or enlisted, US stood for drafted.....After we switched to SS numbers there were no longer any prefixes...

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Response to Bandit (Reply #22)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:05 AM

32. Yes

Nevertheless the AUS (US) codes continued to follow us on paper. My DD214 indicates I was in The Army of the United States (AUS).

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Response to Bandit (Reply #18)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:53 AM

24. Seems you never forget that number.

US54928557

But I volunteered for that number.

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Response to timdog44 (Reply #24)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:58 AM

28. I don't get it..

If you enlisted your number should have started with RA not US..

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Response to Bandit (Reply #28)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:02 AM

31. Volunteered for the draft.

Thus the US. We were singled out in boot camp. All RAs got better treatment than the USs.

Also, this was before you were assigned a number in the draft. 1967, exactly 1 week after I turned 18.

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:40 AM

20. Chickenhawks: Those who support the wars but avoid the risk of fighting in them.

 

They are quite different from the ones who opposed the wars and avoided killing in them.

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:49 AM

23. Seriously?

"Limbaugh and Nugent were ultimately disqualified from service for medical reasons, according to Snopes.com and TheSmokingGun.com."


They're still nothing but RW hypocrites. Yes, being enrolled full time in college kept you out of the draft, but about 3 weeks before graduation (1970) my friends started getting notices to show up for their draft physicals. I was a PE major, so a LOT of my male friends were athletes and most of them had screwed up knees from football, soccer, etc. Some of them were draft exempt because of it. Know what? They JOINED other branches of the service. Limbaugh, Nugent, et al., were just too gutless to stand up for what they supposedly believed it. War is fine...for OTHER people to fight. If I'm not mistaken, Limbaugh's deferment was based on an "anal cyst" (he had a boil on his butt), and Cheney had "other priorities." Nugent was probably too whacked out for the Army.

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Response to WinstonSmith4740 (Reply #23)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:56 AM

26. Right one had an ass boil/cyst and the other had incontinence.

 

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Response to AAO (Reply #26)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:42 AM

36. Old Saying

You are what you eat, so it only goes that one would be a boil on our Asses and the other would be full of shit and could not keep it in. Or maybe his incontinence came from being a chicken shit basterd that did not have the guts for Combat. Either way it sounds like they all needed a visit to the Wizard of Oz.



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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:57 AM

27. Chickenhawks--the lowest scumbags in society

Airborne Ranger volunteer.

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:01 AM

30. Just think what a nice World this would be

if they had all died in Viet Nam.

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:22 AM

33. "Draft Dodger" was a loosely and unevenly applied term.

IMO the only true "draft dodger" was someone who received a draft notice and illegally avoided being actually drafted. That being said, sometimes being a "draft dodger" was in fact more honorable than being a legal "draft avoider," imo. For in fact there is no way to legally be a conscientious objector to a specific war (as opposed to being a conscientious objector to serving in any war). However, it is clear that some young men were sincere about being a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War but they would have served in a war like WWII, for example. In cases like that it seems to me that draft dodging is an honorable choice. Also for young men who WERE conscientious objectors to all wars but were not members of a traditional peace church it could be difficult to have that belief recognized. Local draft boards could be very reluctant to grant CO status in that situation, particularly if they were having difficulty filling self imposed quotas which they had set for a given area because of their "patriotic" fervor. It was a strange time.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #33)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:00 PM

38. CO

Others seem to be the exception to rules. Of not being able to serve two masters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_W._Bennett_(conscientious_objector)


But the Medic MOS is where a lot of CO's were put, thus putting them in grave danger.


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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:36 AM

35. The American people no longer care about draft dodgers or military service.

In 1992 Clinton who arguably dodged the draft went against Bush I a WW II vet. The vet lost. In 1996 Clinton went against Dole a WW II vet who had been badly injured in the war. The vet lost. In 2000 Bush who had marginal National Guard service went against Gore who served in Vietnam. The Vietnam vet lost. Same in 2004 when Bush went against Kerry who had Vietnam service. The Vietnam vet lost. In 2008 Obama with no service went against McCain a Vietnam POW. The Vietnam vet lost. 2012 was the first election in the modern era when neither candidate had any military service.

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Response to malaise (Original post)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:45 AM

37. I was a "Draft Dodger" of a sort.

Started off as a Conscientious Objector and was working in a mental hospital. Couldn't take it.

My wife at the time was English and we moved there. Lived there from 1971 to 1981.

So yes, I'm a draft dodger.

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