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Thu Mar 14, 2013, 10:54 PM

 

"Liberal believers are going to be the people who ultimately bring change to their own religions."

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Warren Stupidity (a host of the General Discussion forum).

- Skinner, from an ATA thread about religious intolerance on DU.

Very well said, and very true.

So maybe take it easy on Catholic DUers, hey? You're shitting on your own friends and allies, causing hurt feelings, and making DU suck. Dumping on people because of their religion is one of the shittier things one person can do to another. In a great many cases, it means you are also shitting on their heritage as well (see, for one example, "Irish Catholic," understand why the first word comes before the second, and understand why it refers to far more than just a religious faith). I value and appreciate criticism, especially of the Catholic Church - which deserves it in spades - but think before you post. A simple request.

Thanks.

Signed,

WilliamPitt
A DU Catholic

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Reply "Liberal believers are going to be the people who ultimately bring change to their own religions." (Original post)
WilliamPitt Mar 2013 OP
jsr Mar 2013 #1
sangsaran Mar 2013 #16
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #17
sangsaran Mar 2013 #20
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #21
sangsaran Mar 2013 #26
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #27
sangsaran Mar 2013 #31
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #32
sangsaran Mar 2013 #46
Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #62
WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #22
sangsaran Mar 2013 #24
MicaelS Mar 2013 #29
sangsaran Mar 2013 #39
YoungDemCA Mar 2013 #83
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #2
WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #3
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #5
TDale313 Mar 2013 #28
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #14
Union Scribe Mar 2013 #34
David Zephyr Mar 2013 #4
WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #6
intheflow Mar 2013 #7
MNBrewer Mar 2013 #106
intheflow Mar 2013 #120
Zoeisright Mar 2013 #8
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #13
Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #41
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #45
MNBrewer Mar 2013 #72
Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #87
treestar Mar 2013 #84
snooper2 Mar 2013 #9
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #10
Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #11
Apophis Mar 2013 #15
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #79
Zorra Mar 2013 #12
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #18
YoungDemCA Mar 2013 #85
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #86
ReRe Mar 2013 #19
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #23
ReRe Mar 2013 #25
jsr Mar 2013 #35
WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #30
intheflow Mar 2013 #75
ReRe Mar 2013 #99
Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #111
We People Mar 2013 #56
ReRe Mar 2013 #57
Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #90
ReRe Mar 2013 #110
Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #113
RobertEarl Mar 2013 #33
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #38
RobertEarl Mar 2013 #40
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #43
RobertEarl Mar 2013 #47
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #48
RobertEarl Mar 2013 #50
jsr Mar 2013 #42
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #44
RobertEarl Mar 2013 #51
Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #68
Ichingcarpenter Mar 2013 #78
BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #89
kwassa Mar 2013 #97
patrice Mar 2013 #36
dsc Mar 2013 #37
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #49
Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #53
Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #52
Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #54
jsr Mar 2013 #65
RainDog Mar 2013 #94
Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #100
RainDog Mar 2013 #105
Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #108
RainDog Mar 2013 #109
RainDog Mar 2013 #114
Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #115
RainDog Mar 2013 #116
Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #117
RainDog Mar 2013 #118
Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #119
LeftyMom Mar 2013 #55
rucky Mar 2013 #58
Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #59
WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #60
Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #70
WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #77
MNBrewer Mar 2013 #104
RainDog Mar 2013 #107
MNBrewer Mar 2013 #112
Bohunk68 Mar 2013 #67
Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #71
Bohunk68 Mar 2013 #74
Zorra Mar 2013 #80
Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #61
bigtree Mar 2013 #63
Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #73
dmallind Mar 2013 #64
WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #66
JVS Mar 2013 #69
Fumesucker Mar 2013 #76
YoungDemCA Mar 2013 #81
treestar Mar 2013 #82
Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #88
treestar Mar 2013 #96
DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2013 #91
Evoman Mar 2013 #92
alarimer Mar 2013 #95
Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #98
Apophis Mar 2013 #102
MellowDem Mar 2013 #93
kwassa Mar 2013 #101
Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #103
musette_sf Mar 2013 #121
Warren Stupidity Mar 2013 #122

Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:02 PM

1. Live and let live.

Faith/religiosity is a highly personal matter - like color preference - and often immune to logic.

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Response to jsr (Reply #1)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:04 AM

16. Color preference is an opinion.

Religion is a fact. Though those who hold a religious belief may be immune to logic, religion itself is not, much unlike color preference.

I don't approve of hating others for their beliefs any more than you do, but... I'd say supporting sexist homophobic child rapists is something worthy of criticism. Anyone who chooses to do so needs to accept the consequences.

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Response to sangsaran (Reply #16)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:07 AM

17. And anyone who descriminates against someone's religion needs to accept the consequences

Bullying never works. People stand up to bullies. My daughter and son are both atheists. My husband is agnostic theist. I am Buddhist, and my father is evangelical Christian. I stand up to my father in order to defend my children's beliefs all the time. I also stand up to militant atheists as well. I'm just glad my children are compassionate atheists, not militant atheists. Being militant and bullying people does not work. It doesn't work when evangelical Christians do it. It also doesn't work when atheists do it.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #17)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:22 AM

20. Calling someone out on their crimes is not bullying.

Willingly choosing to continue following a corrupt leader makes you complicit in his crimes.

If you don't agree with the established beliefs of Catholicism, you should not be Catholic. If you choose to identify as Catholic, you are choosing to support those beliefs. There is no gray area here.

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Response to sangsaran (Reply #20)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:26 AM

21. It is bullying

I never hear people tell gay people that they can't be in the military or that they can't go to church or that they can't live in states where gay marriage is illegal. You know why? Because the gay people who choose to do those things are working from the inside to change things. And they do change things. They do a much, much better job of changing things from the inside than someone who works with hostility from the outside.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #21)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:51 AM

26. Please don't draw false parallels.

The U.S. Armed Forces and state governments are not institutions which exist to promote their leader's beliefs.

The Catholic Church is.

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Response to sangsaran (Reply #26)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:54 AM

27. Are you kidding me? Of course they do.

I heard testimony today of a rape victim in the army that after her rape during a sensitivity training course the commander got on top of the table, got naked and danced right in front of her. I don't hear people telling women to leave the military because they are being raped or discriminated against.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #27)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:02 AM

31. Please reread my post.

What they do and what they are meant to do are not the same thing.

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Response to sangsaran (Reply #31)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:05 AM

32. you're sparcing things

If Catholics should have to leave the church then women should have to leave the military. Fortunately neither is going to happen. Catholics and women both will continue to fight from the inside like they should.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #32)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:33 AM

46. Do you really not see the difference?

Catholicism is a religion, defined by its beliefs. Supporting it is the same as supporting those beliefs.

The military is an organization meant to defend the United States. Supporting it is a way to support the interests of the United States.

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Response to sangsaran (Reply #20)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:39 AM

62. "Their crimes"?

Give me a break.

I guess Watergate made every US citizen a criminal, by that twisted logic.

Get over yourself.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #17)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:28 AM

22. Because no other religion/belief system has ever done anything wrong.

 

How's your glass house, chief?

Tell me what you believe, and I'll tell you why you suck.

Try me. I can do it, in probably under five minutes.

This is called life.

Be respectful as you pass through.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #22)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:37 AM

24. Religious belief?

I'm an apatheist.

My thoughts on belief in God: No one has any proof, everyone fights about it, and it doesn't actually seem to impact anyone in the slightest.

However, while I prefer to avoid discussing it myself, I will not support or defend any organization which has a history of human rights violations, religious or otherwise, and I don't like it when others are vilified for criticizing the same.

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Response to sangsaran (Reply #24)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:01 AM

29. The Extreme Left is often very hostile to organized religion.

History has shown us what happens when the Extreme Left (by "Extreme Left" I mean Marxism, Marxist-Leninism, Maoism, etc) attains power, one of the first things they do is attack religion and those who practice it. It happened in Russia, Republic Spain, China, and other parts of Asia.

I'm not religious and I dislike organized religion. However, I despise the Extreme Left for the various repressions it has practiced over the last 100 years. I do not care what excuses the Extreme Left and their fellow travelers offer, IMO, they are as bad, or worse than the worst excesses of organized religion.

Given their hatred and jealousy of organized religion has made me believe that Marxism just wants to replace the worship of God / Yahweh / Allah with the worship of Marx. The worship of Jesus / Mohammed with the worship of Lenin.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #29)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:15 AM

39. You said it yourself.

"Given their hatred and jealousy of organized religion has made me believe that Marxism just wants to replace the worship of God / Yahweh / Allah with the worship of Marx. The worship of Jesus / Mohammed with the worship of Lenin."

That's precisely how I view them, as well. Mao and the Kim family even established themselves as religious figures, and I'm under the impression the USSR often tried to portray the soviets as all-powerful and other such nonsense, as well. They were very much establishing the state as religion.

However, I do identify as an extreme leftist, generally speaking. I'm just also an anarchist.

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Response to sangsaran (Reply #24)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:13 PM

83. So you don't support the United States government?

They have an incredible history of human rights violations.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:03 PM

2. We now have an interfaith group that is a safe haven for members of all faiths.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:06 PM

3. That is excellent

 

but people shouldn't need to hide in a sub-forum for fear of getting bombarded with vitriol because of their faith and heritage.

Cheers.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:08 PM

5. I know.

I wish some people were not so hostile.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #3)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:01 AM

28. +a zillion

Not Catholic, but really saddened by the tone some have taken. Disagree, fine, but personal attacks on fellow duers because of their faith? Unnecessary and totally out of line.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #2)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:53 AM

14. I didn't know about the interfaith group

I'll have to take a look.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #2)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:08 AM

34. Nice!

Thanks for the info

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:07 PM

4. K&R. I'm with you.

William, I was really taken back by the Catholic bashing here and I'm very sorry to see it.

I saw your OP after I had just posted at DU's YoungDemCA's very good OP the following:

I'm gay and not Catholic and I know about this man's prior history.

But...

1.) He's not Ratzinger, so that is a very good thing.
2.) He is a Jesuit, so that is pretty good thing.
3.) He chose the name Francis, which I think is a great start.

So, like you, I wish all my fellow Catholics and their families good tidings.

I am not Jewish (as Charlie Chaplin said, I don't have that great honor), but the Simon Wiesenthal Center has sent good tidings to Pope Francis. I like that a lot. I'm going to follow that lead.

Will he change the Church for the better? Who knows?

But I'm certainly not filling a sack of stones to throw at him either. What good does that do?

Let's see. And yes, let's hope for good. What could be wrong with that?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022509892

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Response to David Zephyr (Reply #4)

Thu Mar 14, 2013, 11:09 PM

6. Saw that

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:13 AM

7. Kick, kick and fuckin' rec!!



I have read more Catholic bashing since Francis was chosen than since Kerry was bashed by conservative Catholics in '04. WTF, People?! There's a lot wrong with the Catholic Church, but FFS, it's also given us Mother Teresa, Dorothy Day, The Catholic Worker Movement, Michael Moore, JFK, mario Cuomo, Sonya Sotomayor, and Joe Fucking Biden, among many, many others.

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Response to intheflow (Reply #7)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:07 PM

106. Hmm, It's given us Mother Teresa....

Not so good, not so good.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #106)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 08:43 PM

120. Really?

You have a beef with someone who devoted her life to the poor, the chronically ill and refugees? None of us are perfect, and she was a product of her time, but her basic theology of extending comfort to "widows, orphans and aliens" is the best the Old and New Testaments have to offer.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:24 AM

8. I completely disagree.

The only thing that is going to bring about change in religion is people leaving churches in droves so THEY become the minority. And I'm not going to take it easy, EVER, on people who enable pedophiles.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #8)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:47 AM

13. Well I'm not going to take it easy on people who insist they know that the only way to bring

about change is by bullying people into leaving church. People who think they "know they are right" are very often wrong.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #13)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:18 AM

41. The ministers were the ones who bullied me.

By telling me I'm a worthless piece of shit due to original sin, in their sermons.

That's emotional abuse. They didn't know me personally at all. I'm not perfect, I just don't want to be hit with a criminal charge that I don't deserve just because I was born.

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Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #41)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:28 AM

45. then you were certainly free to leave. That does not mean everyone has to leave.

You don't get to tell people they have to leave just because you left.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #45)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:45 AM

72. and you don't get to tell people not to tell people to leave

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #45)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 04:56 PM

87. I did not tell anyone else to leave.

I don't understand why people put up with that sort of emotional abuse from a preacher. Or from other people. But I guess they are conformists and it never occurs to them that they don't have to put up with people demeaning them. And it's socially acceptable to let a minister talk about the blood and guts and suffering of Jesus and symbolic cannibalism of Communion because nobody thinks about how sick it is. It's a death cult.

Our society is pretty much based on putting other people down, in many cases. Where I live lots of the people hate everyone who is not exactly like them. That is sad.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #8)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:14 PM

84. This is over simplistic black and white thinking

It it simply not so.

The church has reacted to the pedophile scandal and paid out damages, as have other institutions where such acts have been discovered.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:26 AM

9. 141,000 Yugos were sold in the United States

You won't find one anymore....

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:28 AM

10. great post WilliamPitt. K&R

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:31 AM

11. I see very little "dumping on people" (except the Pope/s), but well-deserved

 

harshness for the Vatican, the Church leadership, its official position of homophobia and misogyny, the massive cover-up of widespread child rape, and the like.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #11)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:56 AM

15. + 1 jillion

 

You win the internets.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #11)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:46 AM

79. I am not RC but I have seen some people going overboard on this.

I agree that we should say where the church is wrong, but some people here have told RC that they have should leave their faith or they enable child molesters. That is over the top.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:43 AM

12. YAY! Thank you.

No snark intended, but my sincerest condolences on your new Pope. Ouch.

Good luck, I wish y'all the absolute best.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:13 AM

18. The anti catholic feelings here are shocking

 

And it needs to stop.

Myself I hope this is a good thing for both the Church and those outside the Church.

And ultimately that is what we all can hope. Hey, look on the bright side, we are not talking of the Malachi prophecy.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #18)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:15 PM

85. Not that shocking to me...

Americans in general have always had a deeply ingrained anti-Catholic tendency, going back to colonial times, activated especially in the mid 1800s, and again in the 1920s (see Alfred Smith's Democratic presidential campaign in 1928)....

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #85)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:17 PM

86. I know, I was just hopping we outgrew it

 

Apparently not.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:21 AM

19. I will confess...

I have made a couple posts against church/religion, but I have not denigrated anyone for their religeous beliefs. Religion is a very personal thing, and everyone has the free will to believe what ever they want. My Mother, herself, was the best little Protestant Christian that walked the earth in the USA. She marched us kids to church every Sunday, and I learned right from wrong there and stayed busy and out of trouble. I would not be the person I am were it not for her conviction and determination every Sunday morning to get 5 kids up, bathed, dressed and in Sunday School. Turn the other cheek? She had that down pat. Helping the needy? I learned something from her in the last two years of her life... she said she bought this certain poor family shoes for their children every fall. I went to school with those kids and never knew that she did that. She gave her talent to the church, town and county by playing the piano...all of her life! OK, but I was turned different. I can't turn my cheek like Mom did. And I don't go to church anymore. But, something I did learn from Mom was to respect others, no matter what they believe. Think of our ancestors! Their religious beliefs were all they had to hold them together through all the hard times. And here I am. Alive, because they were faithful and persevered. That goes for each and every one of us. So, yes, we need to be more respectful of each other's personal beliefs. We need to be a little kinder and a little more respectful. What I usually do anymore is leave the thread when I see personal hateful attacks.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #19)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:36 AM

23. I've always been fascinated with the way Christianity got African Americans

through slavery and the civil rights movement. They were so dignified and graceful in the face of discrimination. And they didn't have to leave their faith in order to change it.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #23)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 01:45 AM

25. Absolutely!

Just think of it! Their faith is ALL they had!

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Response to ReRe (Reply #25)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:10 AM

35. Faith was all Viktor Frankl had

Some of these sophomoric bullies should read his book sometime, and learn to be human.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #23)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:02 AM

30. Easy

 

"The meek shall inherit the Earth."

Seriously. That was how it was done.

(and it wasn't Catholics who did it...most of the best overseers were Calvinist Protestants from Scotland...run that down, and you'll have a fair history of the South, and of America's brand of Christianity)

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #23)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:14 AM

75. I've always been fascinated with the way in which African Americans

have embraced Christianity as their own, since it was used as a colonialist tool to justify their enslavement. Fascinating that they internalized it so much they were able to use it, in turn, as justification of their own liberation. However, it's disheartening to see many black churches now using Christianity against others - GLBTs come to mind, specifically during Prop 8.

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Response to intheflow (Reply #75)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:31 PM

99. There's fundamentalists of all colors...

... but you will have to admit that it's a minority that believe that way. Otherwise, PO would never have been reelected.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #23)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:41 PM

111. I don't understand this about black people in church.

I used to go to a Missionary Baptist Church. My husband and I were the only white people there.

They let the preacher tell them they are horrible pieces of shit, due to original sin, which has nothing to do with color.

But if white people told them they are horrible pieces of shit, because they are African American, that would not be acceptable and they would scream that white people are racist.

Or the racist white people can add the "curse of Ham" from the bible and tell black people they are bad for TWO reasons?

So this means it's socially acceptable to lay original sin on people and tell them they are sinful and bad, as long as you tell everybody that, black or white or brown or yellow????



If black people are proud of their culture and heritage, why would Christianity get a pass in judging them as being bad, no matter what the color of their skin is????

Christianity gets a pass in this society when it shouldn't, for many reasons.

Hitchens already covered that in "God is Not Great".

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Response to ReRe (Reply #19)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 04:55 AM

56. Thank you, ReRe, for that side discussion within this thread, and the others who have joined in

Through my own parents (and within the community in which they raised me) I received the great gift of realizing that the most important measure of whether one's religious beliefs miss the point or not is in understanding and carrying out loving and humane treatment of others - especially those whose hearts are focused on making life meaningful by giving to others. Sounds easy but sometimes it's hard as hell. In these are especially hard times adding to either wrongdoing or the hurting of of our fellow human beings, on whatever level (interpersonal, community-wide, or on a national level) can be damaging to people in ways that we don't realize. It's a good thing that courageous people like King and Frankl somehow didn't allow other people, or even their own righteous anger, to overtake them, bring them down, or get the best of them.

I'm mainly just rambling but what you and others (including your OP, Will) brought up resonated with me.

Thank you, Will, for reminding us to be thoughtful and civil, and to "keep the main thing the main thing" - to keep our focus on justice and fairness, and to make this world better. Being human is a mixed bag but we should aim for being our best selves a majority of the time with at least a grain of humility.

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Response to We People (Reply #56)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:46 AM

57. Another thing we have to remember...

...is that there are allot of people hurting. Allot of people frustrated because it seems our society has cracked wide open and they don't know what (or can't) do anything about it. Sometimes, I think we have a generation gap, or communication gap. We misinterpret what others say, take things the wrong way, and boom, the spat begins. We come to this forum with our own baggage from a life of different experiences. Tolerance would do us a world of good.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #19)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:04 PM

90. I lose all respect for Christians when they start hating others.

Like Catholics who think Protestants are going to hell.

Protestants who think those "idol-worshiping papists" are going to hell, because they have the gall to pray to a WOMAN, Mary.

Christians who think Jews and all non-Christians are going to hell. but they prop up Israel because they want to save the Jews from hell during the Apocalypse or something like that. And the Jews for Jesus are a secret front group to convert Jews being sneaky and using Hebrew words.

See www.jewsforjudaism.org

Or any church who thinks they are the One True Church, and everybody else is going to hell. Lots of those around.

I've been told I'm going to hell for not being a Christian.

Around here we have Christians who tell me how they hate ALL Mexicans, ALL Blacks, use "damnyankee" as a serious epithet and even hate ALL French people.

They sure waste a lot of energy hating everyone who is not a White Anglo Saxon Protestant like they are.

They could do something positive with that energy if they wanted to.

They want to live in hate and stockpile their guns against that revolution.

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Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #90)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:38 PM

110. It sounds like you live near or among many of these...

... religious bigots. They're zealots. And they're overbearingly vociferous about it. I don't envy you, if you indeed are enmeshed in that kind of community and are unable to escape it (due to family or the area you live in.) I wish there was a way that you could learn how to let it all go in one ear and out the other. You can imagine their ire when they show up at the Pearly Gates and are refused entry some day. The important thing to concentrate on is what you believe. Don't hate them. All I can suggest is to limit your time among those people. When they start in on their spiel, let them go on for a minute and then shake their hand or smile at them and say you need to be hitting the road to do an errand. I'm a non-practicing Catholic, and I can tell you right now I ain't going to Hell. And I don't think you are either. Religion is a personal thing. Pray in your closet, or while you're on a walk, or before you go to sleep at night. Or don't. Whatever you do, remember the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

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Response to ReRe (Reply #110)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:56 PM

113. Yep. That is exactly why we have no real friends.

I just want to get away from them. They don't want to know what I believe and are just dying to tell me they will pray for me and I gotta have faith. They wouldn't understand anything except what they've been brainwashed to believe. They refuse to listen to anyone but their ignorant preacher.

Even in the book club, they would talk about what God wants and how Christianity is special and what makes God angry. Even when the book we were discussing had nothing to do with Christianity.

And one guy said in an email exchange, "You'll be sorry to know I go to church and sing in a choir because I enjoy it". I said I was not sorry because I was glad he enjoyed it. I sang in and directed quite a few church choirs and played the piano for them, because I enjoyed it too. So I quit talking to him and I thought he was the only truly educated person I know here--he has a degree in German Lit. from Rice University and we could talk about classical music and opera.

Then he started arguing with me about Nietzsche and I said "I'm not gonna touch that". He's read it in the original German and doubtless knows it better than I do, like he was superior to me.

These were supposedly educated people. We gave up going to the book club because we really wanted to just get up and leave when this started. These people spend a great deal of time thinking about god and jesus and how everything is a huge moral struggle to them.

The place to talk about God is in church, not the book club.

We baffle the people in town, because we don't go to church and we painted our house blue (which they thought meant 'a buncha Messcans musta moved in') and have Tibetan prayer flags outside. And we put up a big fence to keep people out. Small town people have no boundaries.

The rich people go to the Methodist church but the Baptists run the town.

A lady at the bank said she had a degree in mathematics and would talk to hubby about that. He has a BS and MS in physics and loves math. He said something about evolution one day and she said "I don't believe in evolution but I don't want to talk about it."

We're retired and have two acres and a family home in a little town.



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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:05 AM

33. Right. Liberals will be the change

 

And that's why we must harp on them to make the change.

If it gets personal, alert. It's that simple. But to not attack the institution would be condoning their activities. Can't do that.

The earliest memory I have of Catholics was in the history books detailing the torture of the Central American natives by the Jesuits, circa 1500. Read that as a teenager and it sure made an impression on me.

Is it not true that the RCC, were it a corporation, would be the world's largest and richest? Just look at all that gold in the Vatican.

If it gets personal alert. Otherwise, enough of this 'poor Catholic' pule.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #33)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:14 AM

38. Bullying is a poor motivator

True motivation and change comes from within and it will. It already has. 98% of Catholic women have used birth control sometime in their life. The majority of American Catholics support gay marriage and although probably wouldn't have an abortion themselves don't believe in laws prohibiting abortion. Change is happening. Eventually people who believe these things will start making their way into the hierarchy of the church. it will happen. There is no need for bullying. It is mean and it is ineffective.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #38)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:18 AM

40. Thanks for your reply

 

Now what about the sexual abuse?

What about all that gold? The hierarchy of the church are 1 percenters taking from the poor and grabbing more gold.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #40)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:25 AM

43. From what I've heard this is the guy to address those particular issues.

Will he melt down all the gold and give it to the poor? I don't know. Maybe he will. He certainly won't be wearing Prada like the last guy. And I've heard that the reasons the cardinals picked this guy is because they believe he can clean up the sexual abuse mess. He apparently has good management shills. Will he do it? I don't know. Only time will tell.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #43)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:33 AM

47. Ahh, there it is

 

The trust in one person to solve all the major ills of the largest, oldest and bloodiest corporation the world has even known.

No, it will take church members finally standing up for what is right and being brave. I don't see that happening. Even you now, have put your faith in one man.

As far as I know, putting the guilt trip on Catholics really works, really well. Well, their getting it now. About time.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #47)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:39 AM

48. you really think you have any influence on people by bullying them?

Wow. Someone has a high opinion of themselves. and the church members are standing up. they are the change. 98& of Catholic women have used birth control sometime in their life, most approve of gay marriage and although they probably wouldn't have an abortion themselves do not support laws that prohibit abortion. they are the change, not one man. If anyone is concentrating too much on one man and not on the people it is you.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #48)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:47 AM

50. You said it

 

You are the one who just wrote that the new Pope was gonna do the job of making the changes. What you are now saying is that women are just one by one deciding that the church can go fly a kite. Well, that won't change the church. Really, they should all just up and leave the church and become protestants. That would show the 1 %ers at the top of the heap. Just tell the church once and for all to go fly a kite, they are wrong, have always been wrong and are not changeable, not with the members looking up to them with false idol worship.

Because that is what members have been doing... false idol worship.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #38)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:25 AM

42. Nobody is going to change their religion because of some bozo on the internet

If anything, it's going to backfire.

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Response to jsr (Reply #42)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:27 AM

44. you are exactly right.

Bullying doesn't work when Evangelical Christians do it. It doesn't work when atheists or non-religious people do it either. People stand up to bullies.

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Response to jsr (Reply #42)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:57 AM

51. There's the problem right there

 

""Nobody is going to change their religion..."" Says jsr

No one is saying change your religion. What we are saying is that the leaders of the church need to change. What you have done here is just expose yourself by saying that your religion is based on the leaders of the church. Well, in my religion Jesus is the leader and fallible men who are 1 %ers can take a hike.

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Response to jsr (Reply #42)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:10 AM

68. Here is what amazes me. The religion is named after 'the Christ' who clearly told his followers

 

that they would be mocked and even persecuted for following him. He instructed them to react to such mockery with great joy and gladness. He is supposed to be the one who died for them, and he said 'rejoice when others mock your faith'. He never told them to demand respect, nor to stomp on the ground claiming the atheists were just as bad, or that the other denominations are also corrupt. He simply said 'rejoice and be very glad'.
He also taught that when offended, one should instantly forgive and offer 'the other cheek'. He also said that only those without flaw get to point out the flaws in others, some say institutional child abuse is a bit of a flaw, but the same priests who protect the rapists wail against gay people for not meeting their standards. Think about that as an honest person for a moment. Tell me how the teachings of Jesus allow for that hypocrisy.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #33)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:35 AM

78. Catholicism is not a democracy

The 'flock' have little or no voice in the matters of the church, the flock is meant as a flock of sheep not birds. Unless the OP is a bishop, cardinal, priest or pope the church knows what's best for their 'flock'. Any pretension that their institution is democratic is an absurdity.


The church’s absolute prohibition on birth control is almost unanimously ignored by lay Catholics. The prohibition of divorce is also widely disregarded. Marriage equality for same-sex couples now enjoys majority support in the U.S. and elsewhere, and is becoming the norm even in historical strongholds of Catholicism like Spain and Portugal, in defiance of the Vatican’s wishes.

If the church cared what its members thought, it would long since have abolished the teachings that a vast majority of them refuse to accept. Instead, if anything, the Vatican has redoubled its insistence that agreeing with everything it teaches is essential to Catholic faith.

Although liberal and progressive Catholics may be well-intentioned, they’re acting as if they don’t understand what it is they’ve signed up for. The Roman Catholic church is not a democracy. The church hierarchy isn’t elected, doesn’t have any checks or balances, and it doesn’t solicit or care about the opinions of ordinary churchgoers as to how things should be run. On the contrary, the Catholic church is an absolute monarchy! It’s run by a dictator-for-life who’s not accountable to anyone, who can’t be overruled, and who effectively chooses his own successor.


Because the hierarchy is self-perpetuating, it has no accountability and no need to pay attention to outside criticism. The only influence that ordinary Catholics can exert, the only way they can signal their disapproval, is through the indirect route of no longer attending services or giving money. Anything else, the church can and will take as support for their current political program.

The church was born in an era of empires and monarchies, and it modeled its leadership on the societies of the time. But while all those empires have fallen and those monarchies have become democracies, the church has stayed mired in the past, clinging to the medieval model of one absolute ruler who makes the decisions for everyone. If ordinary Catholics are surprised or dismayed to realize this, it’s only because they made the mistaken assumption that moral progress within the church has kept pace with moral progress in the wider world.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #78)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:04 PM

89. Excellent post

Well argued.

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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #78)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:24 PM

97. Great analysis. Picking the Pope is as secret as picking the premier of China.

A committee elected by no one gets to make the choice.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:14 AM

36. Kick!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:14 AM

37. Imagine for a minute that the cardinals had picked as Pope

someone who said of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, “Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

Would you still belong to that Church? These are the new Pope's words about marriage equality. Gay rights are, in his mind, literally Satan's work. The Catholic Church has the power it has because of the people who refuse to leave it despite the positions it officially takes. No one gives a damn what the Unitarians believe on the issues of the day. Because there aren't that many Unitarians. No one gives a damn what the Disciples of Christ congregation thinks about the issues of the day, again because there aren't many of them. The Catholic Church is listened to for one reason, and one reason only, it has a nominal plurality of religious believers in the United States. It is the people who, as they disagree, refuse to leave the religion that lets it keep its numbers. It really is that simple.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 02:46 AM

49. oh, I've had it

I'm sorry your nice thread has been turned into a battle ground. I take comfort in knowing that love is what drives change. These bullies will not win in the end, and change will come. It will come from the wonderful people from within the church, not the jerks who think they are better than religious people. It is people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr who use love to change the world who truly do change the world. In that there is comfort. I'm going to go back to trashing these threads because the hateful people no doubt always take over. To all you Catholics out there. Stay strong and know that no little ant on the internet can diminish your faith. Keep working for change and enjoy the hope you are filled with right now. I hope your wishes are fulfilled.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #49)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 03:07 AM

53. You forgot one important factor in your thinly veiled condescension.

 

Both Gandhi and Dr. King actually wanted and worked for the changes they paid for with their lives.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 03:04 AM

52. Well the Irish Catholics in Boston have had well over a century now.

 

How's that "liberalization of the church" project coming along over there?

"Don't worry, we'll fix it later".

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 03:20 AM

54. Good on you Will for trying to reason with the unreasonable. But you are confronting the fascism

of the left and they react just as brainlessly and with just as much blind hatred and vitriol as the fascist of the right. As the great British Parliamentarian Shirley Williams once said, " History has show us that there can be a fascism of the left just as easily as there can be fascism of the right and I for one, will have no part of it."

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #54)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:57 AM

65. Yep. It's like accusing Texas Democrats of supporting Rick Perry

because they refuse to leave Texas. Truly arrogant and irrational.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #54)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:57 PM

94. This is BULLSHIT

It is not fascism to ask people who give money and support to an institution that, to this day, tells women they are stupid and are not capable of holding political office (a paraphrase from the new guy) and who call homosexuality evil how they can find it within their conscience to do so.

If you were a Southern Baptist in the south in the 1960s and you supported a religious group that provided religious apologies for slavery and racism, and the internet existed back then, you would be hearing the same thing.

According to you, those people would also be "fascists." See how utterly devoid of truth your statement really is? See how empty your justifications really are?

You, apparently, have no idea what fascism is, just like right wing assholes who use this word to smear those who disagree with them.

The reality is that you nor any other liberal sitting in the pews is going to change the doctrine of the church until you boycott it.

This is the reality. THAT is what Gandhi and MLK taught. Boycott those institutions that perpetuate vile actions.

People who are not associated with the church are asking those who are - which side are you on? Are you on the side that support sexism and homophobia, or are you on the side of those who oppose these nasty, vile religious beliefs.

edited to add - but, of course, back in the 1960s, people would've also been told to shut up about the bigotry of the Southern Baptists because Democrats relied on them as a voting bloc then. plus ça change.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #94)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:40 PM

100. There are all kinds of movements and tendencies within the Catholic church and other religious

groups that challenge many of their retrograde doctrines and offer a place for people of faith and those who feel attached to their heritage but committed to social justice. Countless numbers of Catholics and other Christians and other religious groups have played a pivotal role in the anti-slavery movement, the women's suffrage movement, the labor movement the civil rights movement and countless other movements for social justice. The good works done around world by Catholics and other people of faith can be so casually dismissed truly brings shame and discredit on the secular left. . There are many reasons why a person might stay with their religious heritage or even convert to one. The world is just not simple. To be dismissive of hundreds of millions of people - many of whom are allies or potential allies of the progressive cause is utterly foolish and harmful. Hostility toward religion and perceived hostility toward religion is the number one factor in the United States that has turned the left into a permanent minority. Besides the crass insensitivity - it is political suicide and it amounts to handing the right-wing a permanent position of dominance on a silver platter and handing over to them the keys to power forever.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #100)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:02 PM

105. so I take it you're backing away from your bullshit fascist claim, then?

You're wrong about the left being a permanent minority. Judis wrote about the emerging Democratic Majority back in 2001, based upon analysis of demographic data and this year was the pivotal point at which this change occurred. It was all over the news, in fact.

In addition, the non-religious affiliated in this nation are a growing group- growing faster than any religious group, in fact.

No doubt the pedophile cover ups and the continued reactionary positions of the evangelicals and the Catholic hierarchy have contributed to this - I do know Ireland has seen a huge reduction in people who want to be associated with the Catholic church after the pedophile scandal there and across western Europe.

American catholics, apparently, are more conservative than European ones, and don't think they should actually take a stand against actions they support by their support of an institution that uses its bully pulpit to attempt to deny women and homosexuals legal rights. But, hey, at least you and others can take comfort that you have a tradition behind you.

It's good to see that you are really simply talking about politics and not religion and that you are willing to support sexism and homophobia if you think it benefits you politically. There's no morality there but I'm sure you'll find a way to pretend to find it.

You and others are being called out on the very basis of those things that make you make a claim to religious belief in the first place.

that's why all the howls are going on here - the cognitive dissonance that others are pointing out.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #105)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:20 PM

108. no I am not. backing away from anything. I am seeing exactly the same kind of brain dead vitriol

and hatemongering that I see on the extreme right and that is immoral. And I feel so ashamed of DU when I see it. Most people who are Catholic simply don't agree with the Catholic church on any number of things.. People identify as being Catholic for whatever reasons and attend churches or other religious institutions for a wide variety of reasons - very few do so because they want to promote bigotry. It is simple reality nonetheless, that it is not possible to build a progressive majority and it will never happen - never in a 1000 years if the IF the left is perceived as hostile toward Catholics and other people of faith. That is reality.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #108)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:27 PM

109. I don't think people here (most) are hostile toward Catholics

people are hostile toward an anti-democratic, medieval institution and they are speaking to those who choose to participate here to ask them why they support this organization with the knowledge of the harm that it continues to do.

I ask the same question of people who support Southern Baptists and their sexist and homophobic views.

You are trying to claim that no one can challenge this and it's hateful to do so. You are saying it is hateful to point out the support for bigotry that includes support for the Catholic hierarchy.

Yeah, that's how political change happens, by never questioning people's comfortable assumptions.

This is not the Democratic party. This is a discussion board.

You have called people who call out hypocrisy fascists.

That's what is brain dead in this conversation.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #108)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 08:06 PM

114. Andrew Sullivan, a Catholic, stated the church should be charged with crimes against humanity

I suppose that makes him a fascist, too, to expect the rule of international law to apply to an entity that is a state.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/02/04/nostra-maxima-culpa/

...the good folks in the church tried to do something as early as the 1950s and were stopped in their tracks … by the Vatican. The number of souls violated by child-rape in the coming decades would not have happened if all the Popes since Paul VI had acted with more moral sense than most maximum security murderers. (Even the worst prisoners regard child-rapists as the lowest of the low. Popes? Not so much). We’re not talking about priests who are drunks, or priests who fall in love, or break their vows in fallible, victimless ways; we’re talking here about priests committing one of the most heinous felonies imaginable: the systematic rape of children using the authority of the Church as cover.

John Paul II emphatically cannot be somehow removed from this picture. He personally protected one of the worst offenders, Marcial Maciel, who was a serial rapist, drug trafficker, bigamist and rapist of his own son. In fact, John Paul II elevated Maciel to the highest honors of the church – backed by the theocon wing of the American church, from Richard John Neuhaus to Bill Bennett and Mary Ann Glendon. They all adamantly denied that Maciel was anything but a living saint – and he was never prosecuted, merely allowed a gentle retirement from running his order, The Legion of Christ, which continues.

Joseph Ratzinger, when he was Archbishop of Munich, personally signed off on sending a priest to therapy, after that priest had raped several children, never notified the police, never told the parents of the children at the parish the priest was then assigned to, and because of this negligence, was, in my view, complicit in the rape of several more children before the priest was finally caught, arrested and sent to jail. Let me repeat that: the (then) current Pope enabled and abetted the rape of children – and his only way out was to blame a lower official, who subsequently said he’d been pressured. More than that, no one else in the church knows more about this long record of child-rape than Ratzinger. From 2001 onwards, all cases of child rape or abuse were ordered to be sent to his personal office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. And all of it had to be kept completely hidden from the outside world.

I can hear my devout Irish grandmother – who also worked as a cleaning lady for priests, scrubbing her floors day after day till they looked like glass – asking the same question whenever I questioned ecclesiastical authority. It’s a question that simply tells you: do not disobey a priest; do not malign a priest; do not question a priest. And it is that deference, that lingering, profound subservience to the priestly office that also allowed this to happen. Where, after all, were the nuns at St John’s School? Did they seriously not know what was going on? Where were the parents of the deaf boys, when they warned them about Father Murphy as early as 1974? Where are we now as a church if we vaunt one of the biggest enablers of child-rape, John Paul II, to the status of sainthood without a thorough investigation of these matters?


You talk about caring about minorities and the poor, as a political chess piece. It's those groups who are most likely to be abused by the powerful, whether in political or religious life.

Jerry Sandusky's religious organization also provided THE PERFECT protection for pedophiles and the children, who were from disadvantaged families, had no power to go against this "upstanding citizens," including that pedophile enabler Joe. And JUST AS NOW, those who cared more about the institution of Penn State than the lives of those who were abused, DEFENDED THE PEDOPHILES.

This is what you call "fascism." Those who are repulsed by such abuse of power.

What you are engaging in is morally corrupt.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #114)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 08:11 PM

115. there you go again launching into the same fascistic hateful brain dead vitriolic response

I'm not talking about criticism of the institution. Fine - that's more than fair. I'm talking about attacking Catholics - don't you think anything through?

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #115)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 08:17 PM

116. wow.

I was quoting Andrew Sullivan. Those were his words about Catholics.

HIS WORDS were that Catholics have perpetuated crimes by perpetuating subservience to an institution.

You don't know the first thing about fascism, apparently, since you continue to use it far beyond any recognizable definition of the word.

My response was not brain dead, but yours certainly tells me a lot about you.

I'm done with this. You have nothing of worth to say.


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Response to RainDog (Reply #116)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 08:22 PM

117. good. this is getting boring

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #117)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 08:33 PM

118. People who have been sexually abused thank you for your moral courage n/t

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Response to RainDog (Reply #118)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 08:37 PM

119. oh for crying out loud! nobody is defending that - so cut the crap!!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 03:37 AM

55. I don't think that's true at all, especially in the case of the Catholic church.

There's nearly two thousand years of institutional momentum there, and a great resistance to change. The Church hasn't changed very much since Rome fell. Thinking that pressure from American liberals makes any significant difference shows a real lack of perspective.

That's my perspective as somebody who was raised Catholic, and as a history nerd who appreciates the ancient weirdness of it all.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:56 AM

58. That goes with most any kind of reform.

Responsible gun owners need to offer reform that assures every gun user is responsible
Responsible bankers need to blow the whistle
Reasonable republicans need to call bullshit on their party (I know, I know)
Workers need to stand up for each other
Small business owners need to level the playing field
The Defense department needs to cut its own budget

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:33 AM

59. Here is what Francis has said about my people seeking rights. Do you agree with him or not, Will?

 


“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

So Will. Can you show me any DUer who has accused a Catholic DUer of advocating a 'machination of the Father of Lies' or accused of seeking to deceive good people? This Pope, who you wish to see handled with kid gloves, says LGBT equality is a plan of Satan's. Is your theory that religious people get to say any awful thing they want to about minorities with impunity, no one can contest them or criticize them when they say we are the work of Satan? Seriously? You guys get to call us evil, but if we object, we are somehow wrong?

It is easy to notice those who might change their own religions, they can be seen criticizing the flaws in their faiths, not attempting to silence those who criticize such grave wrongs as bigotry and sexual abuse of children.

In closing, I will say that it has surprised me that none of the folks who claim to be 'of faith' react to these discussions with empathy. Why is that? They get very upset when the faith is called out for horrific actions. Where is the empathy?
If the faith had value, would not the faithful react to those they have harmed with empathy rather than demands that they get over it, and respect the guy in charge?
Not one of the faithful says 'if we have hurt you, I am so sorry for that' instead they say 'you should be used to it, all religions hate gays'.
The actions of the faithful do not make the faith look worthwhile.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #59)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:36 AM

60. I do not agree with him

 

and the tone, tenor and content of your reply is precisely the kind of conversation I hoped to inspire with my OP. Nothing you said here is overtly cruel, insulting or intended to cause harm, and every word of it is true.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #60)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:37 AM

70. Thank you Will. I am a student of religions, have many dear Catholic friends and have many

 

loved ones in various faiths.
The fact is that Jesus taught that his followers would be mocked and even prosecuted for believing. He told them that when that happens they must rejoice. But here on DU, they instead demand respect. I don't get that.
My understanding of Christianity from the actual texts indicates that when offended, the wise forgive without a thought, and when others take offense, the wise offer apology even if they had no intention of offending.
Thus, I am surprised not to find more 'believers' following the faith. What would it cost them, when hearing clearly righteous anger about child abuse and anti gay bigotry, to offer solace, to clearly say 'I am sorry that those who function in my name speak great ill of you and your family'? It would cost them nothing to do so.
The hypocrisy that bugs me the most is the ease with which many can on one day say 'that's just the hierarchy, the rank and file do not buy into that crap' and then the following day claim that criticism of the hierarchy is equal to criticism of all Catholics. If the rank and file do not oppose equality or birth control, and want to be seen as different from the leadership, why do they then take offense at criticism of that leadership? They want to have it both ways. 'Know that I do not agree wit the Pope, but if you criticize him, you criticize me and my Mom too'. I mean, that's just much to ask of others.
Bottom line is the same as it is for Americans. Things are done in the name of believers. Things are done in the names of Americans. Only clear spoken opposition to those things makes one separate from them. Those who hear the homophobia or the cover ups of crimes and do not speak out very loudly are accepting that their name is used to do those things. Critics of Bush policy are not 'anti American' nor are critics of RCC policy against Catholics. To say that they are is the same as Cheney saying that if you don't want to invade Iraq you hate America.
I think it is very unwise for good people to demand that others soften their reactions to rape and bigotry for the sake of a group they belong to.
This new Pope says I am the work of Satan. No one on DU says such things about Catholics. To claim that what is said about religious people is as bad as what those leaders say about us is just delusion. Popes travel the world spewing hate against my family. If there is a difference between a hate speaking Pope and a Fred Phelps, I am not sure what that difference is, are you?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #70)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:25 AM

77. The comparison between Phelps and the Catholic Church is unfair

 

Last edited Fri Mar 15, 2013, 04:50 PM - Edit history (1)

While both share a number of the same bigoted viewpoints, I don't think Phelps and his crew can lay claim to the volume of good works performed by the CC.

One example I witnessed myself: back in the mid-1990s, I was living in San Francisco. The city was preparing to extend equal rights to same-sex couples across the board, and the SF Catholic Church protested the move (as befits the doctrine). The city fully intended to go through with it, until the Church let the city know they would have to stop giving certain services to the city because of it. The city backed off. The reason: the Catholic Church was, at the time, assisting the city by providing 90% of the hospice care that was available to people dying of AIDS. If they stopped that care, it would have been a disaster for the city, and for the people who were suffering.

And there's the rub, the reason why dealing with the Church is an exercise in gut-wrenching personal conflict. On the one hand, you want to say (and I did at the time), "How fucking barbaric to hold sick people hostage so you can get your way regarding your bigoted world view." But on the other hand, there's that zen-koan mind-stop moment...wait a minute...the Catholic Church...the gay-bashing traditional-marriage Catholic Church is providing virtually all the hospice care to members of the San Francisco gay community who were ravaged and dying of this disease, and had been doing so for many years? How the fuck do you square that circle?

The Church that just tapped a guy for pope who was (allegedly) in bed with fascist dictators is the same Church whose priests and nuns were machine-gunned in Nicaragua and Honduras fighting against that very same fascism. The Church that includes the right-wing psychos of Opus Dei also includes the Liberation Theologists who agree with every word you say above.

How do you square that circle?

You don't. And therein lies the personal conflict every liberal/progressive Catholic has to wrestle with when dealing with the Church, and with the Church's presence in their own personal heritage.

I am a straight white male, and can only begin to guess the depth of your personal feelings regarding the Church's teachings on homosexuality. I, personally, abhor those teachings, as I abhor their rampant misogyny, pederasty, authoritarianism, and everything else the Church definitely represents. But the Church is not just those things, disgusting as they are. Catholics believe that salvation is achieved by faith and good works. The faith is where you find so much of the filth...but the good works are there, too.

As I've already said, nothing you've said is wrong, and I'm pretty sure I'm not saying this the way I need to.

My OP was not meant to excuse the Church, or even the people who call themselves Catholic. Just a request to ease off the vituperative gas pedal. Maybe it should be black-and-white for Catholics, but it isn't. This shit runs deep, and for a lot of people, the good works performed by the Church make it hard for them to throw the whole thing over.

I hope that makes some sense.

On edit: and I want to add this as extra food for thought re: my perspective: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022513530

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #77)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:02 PM

104. Well

Perhaps a strict state/church separation would be a good start, where the state never relies on religious organizations to provide services such as hospice care. Universal health coverage for everything taken over by the state. Absolutely NO governmental involvement in "faith-based" initiatives.

In order to prevent a deeply homophobic religious organization from shamelessly using sick, vulnerable people as hostages in making sure the state does it's bidding.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #104)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:15 PM

107. ...

The problem for Americans is that 65% (close to $3 billion) of the funding for the U.S. bishops’ national office for domestic Catholic Charities and 72% of the bishops' foreign Catholic Relief Services is provided by the government, as well as a third of the income for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. At the local level, states also contribute substantial funding for regional Catholic Charities.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/03/1190442/-What-You-Don-t-Know-About-Catholic-Charity-and-Social-Justice

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Response to RainDog (Reply #107)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:47 PM

112. That IS a problem, and it should be 0% for all of it.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #59)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:02 AM

67. Blue Northwest, a moment

I too am GLBT and have gone through the sufferings many of our kind have gone through. I was discharged with an Undesirable Discharge and that affected my employment opportunities for decades. I went (forced by parents in '50's) to go to a Nazarene church. In the early 70's my partner and I began to go to a Lutheran church near us and saw that congregation change its stance towards our community. Later, I moved to Upstate NY and met my love, we moved to his hometown and after 10 years began going to the Lutheran church he had grown up in. We encountered some opposition from members there, but after awhile, they left because the congregation supported us. He has died and I am still a member and one of that congregation's Deacons. The Dean of our Conference tried to get me ousted on trumped up charges of sexual harassment. Since I serve as Deacon at my own congregation's wishes, it did not happen. For two decades, I was the only openly gay Deacon in all of the Upstate NY Synod. I had people come to me at conferences and express their delight that I was there. Now, the National ELCA supports the GLBT community. There is now an openly gay minister, with his spouse, serving not far from me in a rural congregation and on top of it, he is the Dean of his conference. Change comes from within for those who are willing to take all the shit to get that change. It doesn't happen overnight. You don't get change by degrading those who you want to see change in.

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #67)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:41 AM

71. Not to be rude or anything, but this is not news to me.

 

And I challenge you to back up your assertion that I have 'degraded' anyone in anyway. I've been taking part in Lutheran sponsored, pro gay events since the 80's and I'm not even Lutheran. Also not Lutheran, Pope Francis.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #71)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:58 AM

74. Actually, the term 'degraded' wasn't

meant for you in particular. I generalized on that because of some of the other posts. My question to you, you mention taking part in Lutheran events while not a Lutheran. Not being a smart ass, but just curious, what type of things? The ELCA has become more and more GLBT positive over time. I was attending as a voting member the Synod Conference where the vote was taken on three issues surrounding our issues. Had an opportunity to speak to the Assembly. Had the occasion to talk about Mark 7: 24-30. As you probably know, this is the crumbs from the table verse. It is the very same verse that Gentiles use to say that JC came for them as well as the Jews. It was affective, according to those who spoke with me later.

Peace, bro

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #67)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:51 AM

80. "Change comes from within for those who are willing to take all the shit to get that change."

So true. I can't see hordes of furious, rabid LGBT and women storming the gates of the Vatican and forcing church leaders to stop their bullying anytime soon.

I think a lot us LGBT folks were waiting to hear this (I was) from DU Catholics over the last few days:

"Oh, no, we are so sorry about the new Pope, y'all...it wasn't our decision, and we'll try our best to make this right by you".

Although it somewhat dumped on those of us who had been fishing for such assurances, I was very happy when I read the subject line of the OP, it was the first acknowledgment that liberal DU Catholics were considering actively seeking to change their religion from within that I had seen.

I fully understand that, because Catholics are taught to believe that Catholicism is the only one true religion, that if they do not remain in the good graces of the Church, they will spend their eternal existence suffering and burning in a most horrible hell. Naturally, this must be very frightening if you truly believe what the Church teaches, so I can only imagine how scary and hard it must be for Catholics to even think about rebuking Church authorities, let alone break away from their church, and leaving their church in protest against the heinous proclamations and policies set forth by church leaders.

So, after finding out more information about Pope Francis I, I had come to the conclusion that the absolute atrocity of their church leaders choosing this politically deadly, undemocratic fascist as the leader of their Church must have temporarily sent liberal Catholics into shock. The allegations concerning his unconscionable betrayal of two liberal Jesuit priest/social workers, leading to their imprisonment and torture at the hands of fascists, totally sent me over the edge, and all I could feel for liberal Catholics after learning about that was compassion. Ouch.

Like you said, Bohunk68,

"Change comes from within for those who are willing to take all the shit to get that change."



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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:37 AM

61. Well said, Will. Very well said.

From a fellow DU Catholic.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:41 AM

63. Catholic church is often about politics; an insidious and invasive and often intolerant politics

I think it's correct to defend believers; up and to the point where they're tolerating or promoting Church policies which discriminate or are slanderous and hurtful.

Not all religions seek to be as invasive or controlling as the Catholic Church. I'm not surprised to see that they're a subject of scorn and derision.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #63)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:52 AM

73. Right. They don't operate in a vacuum. People are hurt by their policies.

 

Same with the The Mormon Church (see Prop 8 -- in cahoots with the Catholic Church).

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:41 AM

64. Liberalism has existed for centuries. Where is the change?

Every progressive change has either been forced on the church from secular authority (no longer imprisoning gays or atheists) or been a very divisive and even schismatic force within religion with advocates on both sides (slavery, civil rights) AND then requiring secular authority to impose their will on the regressive sects.

Where, precisely, is the liberal reformation within the RCC and what the hell is it waiting for lo these few hundred years? About the best they can show is the pointless minutiae of Vatican II, which means that they in the last 50 years at least don't have to butcher schoolboy Latin to offer rote inanities and that (hey credit where it's due - this is progress of a kind) the official liturgy doesn't call Jews "perfidious" any more.

Where is the move toward gender equality a century after it finally gained serious traction in civil society? Reproductive choice of the most basic kind even though contraception predates the RCC itself? Fuck we're obviously light years away from the church ok'ing expanded reproductive choice and dimensions away from acknowledging the gamut of human sexuality as equally worthy, but can't these brave liberal champions of religious reform do something else other than stop badmouthing Jews every Sunday given that even if you only consider modern liberalism as opposed to classical variants, they've been around since Locke at the very least - well over 300 years.

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Response to dmallind (Reply #64)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:00 AM

66. Liberation Theology.

 

Look it up.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:21 AM

69. I agree that shitting on fellow DUers is unproductive, but liberals won't change the churches.

Liberals have always been at a disadvantage within churches, as the hierarchies have tended conservative. But the trend within the churches has made them pretty much a lost cause as far as liberalism is concerned. The reason for this is that even if these organizations became more responsive to their parishoner's viewpoints, liberal church goers have quit in droves. The record number of people in the US who are religiously unaffiliated did not come from the conservatives' portion of the congregations. This drop in religious participation on the left is going to lead to even less representation in the organizations and further reinforce the religious conservatives' hold on power. The left's concerns will remain unaddressed. You can see this phenomenon at work in the selection of the new pope, who positions the Vatican well to play up to the Global South and dismiss criticisms from North America and Europe as "first world problems".

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 11:18 AM

76. It wasn't my Savior who instructed me to attend to the beam in my own eye first

I recall that right after the inauguration you had what I read as a condescending and snide OP aimed at those who might be a bit weary of hearing religious rhetoric during civil ceremonies.

Shitting on your friends and allies, I know I certainly felt shit on by that OP of yours, self importantly telling me things I have known since the sixties. You may not have intended for me to feel that way, I"m giving you the benefit of the doubt here but that's certainly the way I felt.

Really Will, we get it and got it, it's a tradition and it won't change until the US is well over half non-religious. Of course, given the way many religions have been acting lately it might not take as long to get there as we might imagine.

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

Key Findings and Statistics on Religion in America

More than one-quarter of American adults (28%) have left the faith in which they were raised in favor of another religion - or no religion at all. If change in affiliation from one type of Protestantism to another is included, 44% of adults have either switched religious affiliation, moved from being unaffiliated with any religion to being affiliated with a particular faith, or dropped any connection to a specific religious tradition altogether.

The survey finds that the number of people who say they are unaffiliated with any particular faith today (16.1%) is more than double the number who say they were not affiliated with any particular religion as children. Among Americans ages 18-29, one-in-four say they are not currently affiliated with any particular religion.

More than one-quarter of American adults (28%) have left the faith in which they were raised in favor of another religion - or no religion at all. If change in affiliation from one type of Protestantism to another is included, 44% of adults have either switched rot currently affiliated with any particular religion.


http://www.christianpost.com/news/youth-turned-off-by-religion-and-politics-turn-away-from-church-71688/

Young people are turning away from churches because they associate Christianity with Republican politics, a study reveals.

Political science Professors David Campbell (University of Notre Dame) and Robert Putnam (Harvard University) published their findings, "God and Caesar in America: Why Mixing Religion and Politics Is Bad for Both," in the March/April edition of Foreign Affairs. Campbell and Putnam also wrote American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us (2010), which was recently released in paperback. For that book, they have been surveying the same group of people from 2006 to 2011. The same data was used for the Foreign Affairs article.

One of the most surprising findings from the data they collected, Campbell said in a March 13 interview with The Christian Post, was that people are driven away or toward religious involvement because of their political leanings. In particular, those who are politically conservative, or Republican, are more likely to become churchgoers and those that are politically liberal, or Democratic, are more likely to turn away from religion.

This is the opposite of previous understandings of the interaction of religion and politics. Social scientists believed that people first got involved in a particular religion, which then influenced their politics in some way. Increasingly, more studies like Campbell and Putnam's are finding, though, that politics is more likely to determine religion than religion determine politics.

Campbell likes to use the image of a "brand" from marketing. The Republican brand has been increasingly associated with religion and social conservatism due to the influence of the Christian Right, a social movement which has been a part of the Republican coalition since the 1980s. Moderates and Democrats are uncomfortable with that brand and seek to not be identified with it.


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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:11 PM

81. Nah, it's more fun to troll the forum with "religious people are stupid/brainwashed/etc"

And also, insinuate that every religious person in the world is a bigot, or "enables" bigots.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 12:12 PM

82. Thank you!

The Catholic church in fact, has changed. No one has to worry about the Spanish Inquisition now!

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Response to treestar (Reply #82)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:00 PM

88. Oh, sure, go ahead and let your guard down ...

 

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #88)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:23 PM

96. rofl

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:20 PM

91. Or not (r.e. ultimately bringing change to their own religions)

 

I'm not going to wade into the Catholic issue, at least not in this thread. But I wanted to point out that while what Skinner and Will Pitt say is true in some cases, it's not so across the board. Sometimes, the liberal members of a religion get up and leave. Believe it or not, there used to be such a thing as liberal Southern Baptists. What they called liberal, we might call moderate on this board, but you get the idea.

In the late 80's and early 90's, there was a concerted effort on the part of the right-wing of the Southern Baptist church to make these liberals either conform, or get out. The vast majority got out. As a result, there are very few Southern Baptists left who are liberal. I'm sure there are some, but they're the exception rather than the rule. And last I checked, the Southern Baptist church was sucking wind pretty bad. Serves them right.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:50 PM

92. Honestly, no disrespect intended, I just don't get it.

I don't get how anyone can support such a misogynistic, homophobic group. Aside from the child molestation issues, the leadership of the church says gay rights are the devils work and they still don't ordain women. They blame women for original sin.

I'm sorry...I just don't understand a faith so strong, that you can put up with a leadership that is just so.....wrong. I don't care what group I was part of....be it a dance group, an atheist group, or political group. If they acted and believed what the pope and church hierarchy believed, I would quit the group without hesitation. I'm not saying to stop believing in god or whatever. But how can you send your money and support to such a group?

I'm an ex-catholic (I've never believed in god, but my mom was catholic and had us baptized, etc) who was out of their before I was a teenager. For the life of me, I just don't get why people stick around. As to complaining about other people calling out your religion? Well....who are we if we DON'T call out organizations that have the anti-women, anti-gay beliefs? Do you think some hurt feeling are equivalent to the active attempts by the catholic church to stop condom use, prevent gay rights, and stop contraception?

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Response to Evoman (Reply #92)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:01 PM

95. As far as I'm concerned anyone who belongs to a religion is complicit in the evil that they do.

They can't simply look the other way. Because liberal Catholics who take birth control or get divorced are going to hell, at least according to the teaching of that church. How do they rationalize that inconvenient fact away?

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Response to Evoman (Reply #92)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:28 PM

98. ^ Exactly. ^

 

You articulated it well, my friend.

We didn't let our son join the Boy Scouts because they are officially anti-gay. We created our own group. I don't get "enabling" these types of institutions if you are a liberal who believes in equal rights for women and gays.

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Response to Evoman (Reply #92)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:54 PM

102. I don't get it either.

 

You're absolutely right.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:57 PM

93. No, people leaving religion will ultimately bring change...

What always goes unsaid is that near every one of the "believers" got that way through childhood indoctrination, and few if any actually believe their own religion, or even know what the beliefs are. Why claim membership in such organizations? None of them ever really try to defend the crazy homophobic, misogynist beliefs for a good reason.

It's hard to take someone seriously that claims to be a liberal AND a member of a homophobic, misogynist institution "just because" and who won't leave "just because", it smacks of intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:50 PM

101. Liberal believers have changed many denominations, but they can't change the Catholic Church.

Many denominations have democratic elements to them, but the Catholic Church has none. It is functionally a dictatorship.

For the RCC to change, it must come from internal struggles from motivated cardinals. If it does happen, the process will be invisible to us on the outside of it. The closest parallel is to the change in governing of other closed societies, with the strongest parallels to the changes in the former Soviet Union and in China.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:59 PM

103. well what can you say, some of us want to build a progressive majority which will NEVER happen and

is absolutely 100% impossible - without the widest variety of people - including Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus and nonbelievers of all varieties as well. It is obvious and it is no secret that a sizable portion of ethnic minorities and working class people of all ethnicities are religious people. There will never be a progressive majority IF the progressive movement is perceived as hostile to people of faith. That will never, ever happen. Unfortunately, as much as some of us want to build a progressive majority open to all people of all and no faith - there are others here who seem bound and determined to make sure that never happens.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 08:50 PM

121. Come on over to the discussion at the National Catholic Reporter.

It's Catholic on Catholic shitting on each other over there.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:31 PM

122. Locking, despite my misgivings, as per the near unanimous vote of the gd hosts.

 

Sorry Will. I think this makes du dysfunctional.

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